[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]
Thursday, November 30, 1995
.0931 
[English]
The Chair: Good morning, everyone. Welcome, colleagues and witnesses, to the Standing Committee on Citizenship and Immigration. Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), we are continuing our consultations on settlement renewal.
I'd like to welcome today Mr. Joel Mass from Jewish Immigrant Aid Services; Jennifer Chew, president, and Sanjukta Dasgupta, community worker, from the South Asia Women's Community Centre; and Mr. Eric Faustin from the Bureau de la communauté chrétienne des Haïtiens de Montréal. Bienvenue, welcome.
I'll give you just a little background. Last June the committee did a consultation from coast to coast. One city we had not gone to yet was Montreal, the reason being that the federal government has an administrative agreement and accord with Quebec. Settlement services are provided differently in Quebec than in the rest of the country.
We invited you to give us feedback in terms of how those services are provided for through your experiences in the organizations you work for. It's a round table discussion. You will each have five to ten minutes to make a small presentation on the services and then we will open it up to the members to ask questions.
We will begin with Mr. Mass.
[Translation]
Mr. Joel Mass (Executive Director, Jewish Immigrant Aid Services): Thank you very much. My name is Joel Mass and I represent the Service d'assistance aux immigrants juifs, better known under the name Jewish Immigrant Aid Services. I would like to tell you a bit about our organization.
Next year, our organization will be 75 years old. Since the 1920s, we have helped approximately 200 000 people. We are part of a service network within the community. We cooperate with our colleagues in other NGOs as well as with public authorities.
We dispense services that include preimmigration, that is assistance to people who want to settle in Canada and Quebec.
We are a national organization and we have offices in Montreal and Toronto. In other cities where there are significant Jewish communities, we are represented by other services within the Jewish community.
We dispense a wide range of services. With our partners in the network, we try to insure that once people have arrived here, they obtain French as well as English language training when it is important to them. We offer them housing services as well as medical resources and we have a financial aid program. We try to get them a job through an employment club. Finally, we do everything we can to ensure that these people can truly integrate into society and our community.
.0935
For example, our French language courses also include an integration program that encompasses psychosocial assistance in the development of the support group. We also ensure that newly arrived immigrants are familiar with the standards and mores of Quebec and Canadian society. Currently, our main clientele consists mainly in people arriving from the former Soviet Union, and this training enables them to better understand their Jewish roots, which were suppressed under the former Soviet regime.
[English]
So in this way we try to provide a complete gamut of services and welcome people into our society and into our country.
I wanted to just make a few remarks. We did not prepare a presentation on the subject matter. My understanding was that this was principally a round table discussion, as Madam Chairman said. I wanted to bring to your attention to a couple of points to launch our thoughts on this matter. I speak on behalf of our board of directors, our staff, and I believe our clientele, whom we consult regularly, through focus groups and other feedback mechanisms.
We believe a local cultural community is an excellent launching pad for integrating people into our society. We find there are some people who say that's too narrow and that it prevents people from moving into broader society.
Our understanding is - and I believe there are some people here who may have been born elsewhere and are more expert than I in this matter - that one of the primary needs someone has upon arrival to a new country is a sense of belonging. We believe that sense of belonging can start with a local cultural community, be it a Jewish community, a church community, a cultural community, a southeast Asian women's centre, or whatever it might be.
We believe this is a beginning of security and of finding a home in a new society, as long as that cultural community tries, as we do, to ensure that we don't use a captive audience and not help them move into the larger society. That's a challenge we face all the time.
I wanted to mention one program that I think is particularly pertinent to the discussions of this committee, as I understand the purpose of the discussions. This is a program we've undertaken over the past couple of years and which has served as a model for one or two other communities at least to begin exploring.
We've developed an excellent partnership with the Quebec Ministry of Immigration to do the following. I must add we've had a lot of support from the Canadian embassies, principally in both Moscow and Kiev. We have brought 100 families to Montreal. We're in our second program of bringing 100 families to Montreal with really excellent cooperation, which works in the following way.
Montreal families identify their relatives or good friends in the former Soviet Union who would essentially qualify for the Quebec point system, which is similar to the Canadian point system in Immigration. We will first do a paper evaluation of those families, and after that we will meet them in the former Soviet Union, help them prepare their immigration dossiers, deposit those with the Quebec office in Vienna in our case, and work very cooperatively with the Quebec office in Vienna and with the embassies, again principally in Moscow and Kiev, to follow their immigration dossiers. Certainly Quebec and Canada have the final say as to who comes in, but we try to follow the criteria well enough that our cases are accepted.
What this program does is that once those people arrive we know a lot about them, so we are able to prepare jobs for them. We have 40% to 60% of people arriving to jobs that have been prearranged. Not all of those jobs work out; it's not a dream world. But in this way we have been able to build a sense of confidence and comfort on the part of those arriving, in terms of their appreciation of both our community and the government. They're not used to seeing a smiling government official who's working with them cooperatively. So there's a very different sense that people are arriving to, and it's very much appreciated by them.
.0940
The other thing that happens is that because it's a concentrated program in its way it has served as a catalyst within our community and, I must add as well, within the Quebec immigration ministry to ensure that we're asking how we can better coordinate programs. We have about 800 to1,000 immigrants arriving into our community annually in Montreal.
[Translation]
Our community is made up of approximately 100 000 Jewish people who all live in the Montreal region. Approximately 40 per cent of these people were born abroad. Obviously, our history is a rather rich one.
We coordinate services between the community and the public. This augurs well for the future of these immigrants and of our services.
I would like to raise one or two more points. With regard to funding of services dispensed by local organizations, we must avoid spending too large a proportion of subsidies meant for services in administration costs. For example, we calculated that right now, in Quebec, 10 per cent of these funds are used for administrative purposes, such as compiling statistics, etc. In my opinion, this is a shameful situation and we must find a way to ensure better accounting of public funds.
Identifying standards for needed services and having some accountability constitute a real challenge, and I imagine that it will be one of the keypoints of our discussion here this morning. I would like to emphasize that it is very important to encourage local communities to get involved in immigration programs.
With regard to funding, we must develop a partnership of community funds and public funds, and not simply rely on one or the other. Personally, I'm very proud to be part of one of these partnerships in Montreal. I hope that our experience will be useful to others. Thank you.
[English]
The Chair: We are talking about accountability, but what we want to know basically - because accountability doesn't have the same sense in Quebec as it has in the rest of the country, since the Quebec government runs its own government program - is, in terms of your experiences, what has worked and what hasn't worked in terms of settlement in Quebec.
I'll continue either with either Jennifer Chew or Mrs. Dasgupta from the South Asia Women's Community Centre, your opening remarks please.
Ms Jennifer Chew (President, South Asia Women's Community Centre): We'd like to thank the CIC for inviting the South Asia Women's Community Centre here today. We haven't had a lot of time to prepare for this consultation, but we feel very strongly that it is only with such consultations that we can all look forward to a successful future. The more individuals and organizations involved in the process the stronger the basis upon which forthcoming policies will be formulated. In listening to Joel here, and hearing about the pre-immigration services that are offered, we have already learned something.
The South Asia Women's Community Centre came into being in 1981, and almost from inception it has worked closely with the government in settlement and adaptation programs of newcomers to Canada. The South Asia Women's Community Centre is unique in that it is one of the very few organizations that offers its services in a number of south Asian languages. As Joel was also saying, a feeling of belonging as soon as newcomers come to the country is very important, and this gives people a feeling of belonging.
It has also come to be well-known as a resource centre for universities and hospitals, schools and the police force, and works closely with the institutions and individuals in sensitizing the larger community to the needs of the newcomers and also in bringing newcomers into the larger community. In this partnership, the South Asia Women's Community Centre is an important component in building the new reality in Quebec and Canada.
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As service providers, we are in agreement that the delivery of services be as effective and cost-efficient as possible. However, we urge the government to make sure that people are the guiding principle and not the dollar. If decisions are made with people as the point of reference, the results will be humane and workable.
I don't know if you want to hear about what we have for accountability at this point.
The Chair: Yes.
Ms Chew: One of the things we would like to say over here, and it might not be part of this discussion but I thought we should bring it up because it does impact on settlement, is that all of us here work with immigrants. Many of them have come here to make a better life for themselves. They are beginning in a climate of uncertainty and change, and the one constant in their lives is hope for a better life and a strong desire to make this happen.
The government has now decided to impose a head tax or a settlement tax on individuals. For people coming from the greater part of the world - we deal with people from the south Asian community - the amount is crippling. Even people who are coming from countries that are not in this condition...all people who are coming to make a better life are not wealthy people. So the amount is sizeable, and while some might be able to pay it, the people from south Asia, whom we work with principally, will not be able to come to Canada. The tax needs to be looked at again and be removed, if possible, because it has been proved that new immigrants will pay high dividends to their home by choice once they have established themselves.
For our part in the accountability, we would like to make sure that.... We're not talking from our experience in Quebec, because it seems that we have been under this for some time now, and there doesn't seem to have been very much difference once the funds have been administered by Quebec. Things have been going very smoothly. But we would like also to see that less money should be spent on administration - if possible even less - but, rather, go into providing the settlement services.
One point is that the government should make sure that there are sustainable grants that are given to local groups so that there's not repetition in the writing up of grant applications. This will allow a little bit more to go into the services that are going to be given to people, and there will be a certain continuity that will strengthen the process.
For accountability of local organizations, we thought that perhaps a self-evaluation of the work the organizations do, in the form of an annual report, would help governments in evaluating the work done, and then the governments should also do an evaluation of the work of the organizations.
What role should the federal government play in immigrant integration? I think there are many common factors of people coming as immigrants to Canada and Quebec, and perhaps the federal government could set some national standards and guidelines that would be based on these common needs, and this would, in the end, ensure equitable treatment across the country and all the provinces.
The federal government should also continue to control some part of the budget to ensure that the newcomers are treated equitably.
Now we come to how progress should be measured, and how we share results. First of all, I think the system should be looked at to see if it's meeting the changing needs of the people coming in. We are going to concentrate on language teaching. Sometimes the output is very uneven, and we think that in this program, because we do give language classes in our settlement programs, the teacher training might not be adequate, and this should be updated according to the needs.
.0950
There should also be a follow-up after the initial courses, and this might be a matter of more intense programs after the initial period of the classroom in the language courses. Perhaps there should be a follow-up in which the students are somehow placed in a milieu where they will be able to use the language after the classroom. Even if this means a little bit more money being spent on language classes, it will be money well spent, and people will be able to use the language they have learned in the classrooms.
The Chair: Your five minutes are up, unless you want to make a closing remark. We'll have time later.
Ms Chew: All right; maybe I should....
The Chair: Do you want to add anything?
Ms Chew: Not at the moment.
The Chair: Thank you very much.
[Translation]
We will now hear Mr. Faustin of the Bureau de la communauté chrétienne des Haïtiens de Montréal. Mr. Faustin, welcome
Mr. Éric Faustin (Director, Bureau de la communauté chrétienne des Haïtiens de Montréal): Ladies and gentlemen, I wish to thank the Standing Committee of Citizenship and Immigration for having invited us to this meeting here today.
We're specially pleased since we see faces around this table that are familiar to us, such asMrs. Bakopanos and Mr. Nunez. Although Ms. Debien is the member of Parliament from my riding, this is the first time I meet her. I wish to salute you all.
First, I would like to say a few words about the Bureau de la communauté chrétienne des Haïtiens de Montréal. The Bureau has been in existence for 23 years and its purpose is to welcome and help new immigrants settle in Canada.
According to Statistics Canada, the Haitian community is made up of approximately50,000 people who came to settle here. This does not include children of Canadian residents of Haitian origin currently living in Canada. Our community is concentrated primarily in Metropolitan Montreal, where we number approximately 43,000.
We've come here to discuss, among other things, the nature of the role that the government could play or continue to play in service delivery in the next three years. It must be noted that the transfer of jurisdiction over these services to the Quebec government was done in a harmonious manner. We now have more or less the same type of relations that we used to have.
However, in our opinion, it is important for the government of Canada to monitor the terms of the agreement as such and ensure that the objectives that had been established at the time of the agreement are achieved.
With regard to the way decisions are made concerning priorities and local service needs, we can say that the Bureau de la communauté chrétienne des Haïtiens de Montréal works with a group of organizations involved in the reception and settlement of new immigrants, for example the Table de concertation des organismes de Montréal au service des réfugiés.
We have regular contacts with the government of Quebec, more specifically, the Ministry of International Affairs, Immigration and Cultural Communities, and we have established a source of partnership which is not exactly of the same level, but we do try to eliminate certain irritants in program management methods and the changes made to such programs.
.0955
For example, I would like to refer to the changes made to the statistical grids and the method for evaluating services provided to clients. These changes are proposed by the government and studied by the parity committee. Recommendations are made so that when the changes are actually implemented, a consensus has already been reached between the organizations and the government. It is difficult to achieve that consensus; it's a bit laborious, but we do succeed.
In terms of the use of funds and the way we, the organization, account for the funding we receive, the government monitors community organizations at three levels.
First of all, we have service statements that must be sent to the government every month. We have progress reports that are prepared five months after the start of a program, and that take into account the service, prorated, in order to determine to what extent we will achieve our objectives, as well as to evaluate the expenditures for those services.
We must also produce an annual report for the government, in addition to the independent audit to which we are subject. In this regard, I think that the controls in place are quite adequate and allow us to account for services and funds utilization in a transparent way.
I would like to add that in our opinion, certain elements should be taken into account, such as the specific nature of the groups who settled here and the level of difficulty they experienced in adapting, which may be different from one group to another. We would appreciate if under the established criteria all the levels in receift of funding for various programs would have enough flexibility to allow them to adapt and enable organizations working in the field to adjust to the communities they serve.
For example, some service criteria are established for an 18 months period. We feel that these criteria are unrealistic. It is quite obvious, and I think that the Ministry of International Affairs, Immigration and Cultural Communities has realized this, that 18 months in a country is not sufficient to allow a person to truly realize the difference between the customs here and those of his or her country of origin and to adjust adequately to our own.
I also believe, as my colleague said earlier, that reinforcing the sense of belonging to the community is not synonymous with getthoization. You have to feel strong yourself to be able to open up to others.
.1000
In this regard, we can cite the government of Quebec PELO program, which I think is an interesting way to
[English]
to enhance the personality, the sense of knowing who you are yourself, to be able to open yourself to the world around you.
[Translation]
PELO is the Heritage Languages Program. I would prefer to call it "Heritage Languages and Cultures". This is a very interesting way of informing newly arrived people, to reinforce their sense of belonging to a community so that later on, they can open up to the culture and customs of their adopted country. Thank you.
The Chair: Thank you very much. We will now hear Ms Nadine Lemaître of the Centre multi-ethnique de Notre-Dame-de-Grâce. Welcome, Ms. Lemaître.
Ms Nadine Lemaître (Centre multi-ethnique de Notre-Dame-de-Grâce): Good morning. We apologize for our tardiness. We took the first train and it arrived late. We heard our colleagues say more or less say what we had prepared. However, I would like to add that monoethnic centres have their own problems.
Our case is quite unique. We are a multi ethnic centre that represents 72 different nationalities. In addition to all the reception and employment services we provide, we offer francisation and English courses given every day, in the evening, to professionals who need to learn English in order to join the labour force.
The transfer of powers from the federal to the provincial level of government was done harmoniously. We didn't have any problems, but there was a brief period of adaptation because we continue to be drowned in paper work. This was a transfer between partners. But despite that, we encounter problems that have not been raised. The subsidy, which is paid in two instalments, is always very late. The one at the beginning of the fiscal year, in April, arrives in late May or early June, and the one that's supposed to be paid in August arrives in late October.
Therefore, charitable organizations and community agencies like ours
[English]
have a hard time managing their finances, and this is a very important problem. So maybe in the future things should be done in order that at least we receive our grants in time, not being able to run to the banks and get special deal with the banks.
[Translation]
This is something important.
In integration and education, because of the 18 month limit, the French language course process should be reviewed. These courses are 1 000 hours for some and generally 800 hours, as required by the ministry. That's too short to enable someone whose first language is neither French nor English to learn both languages.
I agree that French is essential in Quebec, but the language of work is English. So imagine the case of someone from the Asian community or the Arab or Russian communities? We receive quite a few people from eastern Europe who have to learn both languages at once in order to enter the labour force.
We won't discuss English, but rather French. People are entitled to a one year course, but if they are sick or have other problems, these interruptions are not taken into account. It's that one year that counts. I think that the problem of education should be reviewed, particularly with regard to the second language in Quebec. That's very important.
There is another problem. I don't know if this is the time or the place to broach it, but I would not want us to forget refugee claimants. When we talk about
[English]
what we will call refugee claimants, 50% of our work is done on a volunteer basis to provide services to the refugee claimants, and this is for all the organizations of Montreal. We cannot put them down under statistics, because the only service we are paid to offer is housing and looking for apartments. That's all.
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[Translation]
You can't then throw out a claimant and say: "No, we gave you this address for housing. As far as anything else was concerned, forget about us."
We are there to offer community and humanitarian services. In the future, it will be very important that that be taken into consideration. We devote 50% of our time to refugee claimants. Thank you.
The Chair: Thank you, Ms Lemaître. Ms Gliceria Acosta of Accueil liaison pour arrivants is with us today. Ms. Acosta, you have the floor.
Ms Gliceria Acosta (Director, Accueil liaison pour arrivants): Good morning. I'm pleased to be here today.
I'm the director pour Accueil liaison pour arrivants whose prime objective is to facilitate the integration of new settlers.
Since its foundation 12 years ago, the ALPA has benefited from various subsidies granted under different employment and immigration programs. Through these subsidies, the federal government has always demonstrated its willingness to help and support community organizations that work for the integration of immigrants.
Moreover, as you already know, in 1991, all powers over programs for the linguistic, economic and cultural integration of immigrants were transferred to the province of Quebec. This brought about rapid changes in the administration of immigration program cases in Quebec.
On one hand, the Quebec government was not immediately prepared to administer the federal government various programs and especially the countless documents related to the immigration portion of such programs. Moreover, community organizations that were used to accounting to the federal government had to learn to trust the new Quebec immigration authority. There was therefore minimum time required for all parties concerned to learn to get to know each other and function efficiently.
Therefore, despite a difficult start, a climate of confidence did eventually develop between the Quebec government and community organizations. Together, we've deployed enormous efforts to establish various that respond adequately to the needs of newly arrived immigrants.
Today, we can say that the administration of immigration in Quebec works very well. The Quebec government and community organizations work in close cooperation and several consultation meetings have been established, as my compatriot from Haitian community told you.
Moreover, there is an advisory committee set up by the regional directors of the Quebec Immigration ministry which enables the organizations concerned at all levels to make important decisions together that affect various programs.
Despite all these notable efforts, there is one important aspect which, unfortunately, seems to be neglected by governments, both federal and Quebec.
As Ms Lemaître stated, this concerns refugee claimants. It must be understood that these claimants also need a wide range of services. Given our vocation, we cannot refuse to provide them with services. We devote almost 50% of our time to claimants, as Ms Lemaître said.
We sincerely believe that the federal government must assume its responsibility toward refugee claimants since it is that level of government that opens doors to them at the outset.
I hope that the federal government will continue to help us and help the Quebec government in his immigration program, and that other provinces of Canada can also gain the privilege of administering immigration programs.
As far as other issues are concerned, my compatriot has summarized the situation in Quebec very well.
The Chair: I wish to thank all the witnesses.
.1010
[English]
Thank you very much for your introductory remarks.
Just for a little background, I'd like to remind witnesses and members that when we undertook the consultation, it was basically to see what role the federal government should play, and as I said, in Quebec it's different from the rest of the country. I want to underline that. There is the Quebec-Canada accord.
We're looking at how, in three to four years, the federal government will withdraw from direct administration of settlement services across this country, as it has in fact done in Quebec, if we look at it that way. All we do is transfer the money and the services are provided.
Basically we wanted to know what is working, and I think some of your comments were apropos in terms of that part of the discussion. We'd also like your opinions on what role the federal government should play in fact.
Are there standards we should set? Are there inalienable principles we should establish and recommend to the minister and the ministry? What accountability mechanism should there be? Some of you spoke about that, and I appreciate that.
Should there be more local participation, and if so, what type of participation should that be - provincial, municipal, school or other? For instance, school boards are coming this afternoon. They also have their own viewpoint on this.
I'll begin with some of the members' questions.
Ms Terrana.
[Translation]
It's a round table, but we could start with you, Mr. Nunez. Go ahead.
Mr. Nunez (Bourassa): We've always followed the same order.
[English]
The Chair: No, but it's a round table discussion.
[Translation]
Go ahead.
Mr. Nunez: According to the House of Commons' tradition, the official opposition always asks the first question.
I wish to thank our friends from Montreal who came here despite their travel difficulties. Together, you have an exceptional expertise in the area of immigrant and refugee integration and settlement. We all know that almost 90% of immigrants who come to Quebec settle in Montreal.
I particularly want to congratulate Jewish Immigrant Aid Services. As it has been in existence for 75 years, it's the oldest organization of its kind in Quebec. Two hundred thousand people have received your help, particularly in the area of employment, which is a crucial problem for newly arrived immigrants. I would like to hear further comments from you on that issue.
I would like to ask Mr. Mass my first question. Can you tell us a bit about your budget? What's the annual amount? Where does it come from? How do you account to organizations for money granted, and so forth?
Mr. Mass: The greatest part of our budget comes from the Jewish community. Every year, our community organizes a fundraiser and our Montreal office then has a budget of approximately $400,000 to provide services. In addition, we receive approximately $45,000 a year from Quebec for adaptation services as well as a subsidy of approximately $33,000 a year for French language courses.
These subsidies come from the Quebec Ministry of Immigration. Moreover, we have a budget for financial aid, which varies according to need and which generally comes from community funds as well.
Within our community, we are currently conducting an assessment similar to the one you are doing, but on a much smaller scale. We've noted that within our community, we spend almost$1.5 million on services for newly arrived immigrants.
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We provide educational services in the Jewish school network of greater Montreal and we give grants for participation in summer camps, the YMCA, libraries, etc. All that comes from our budget.
We are really very happy to have a community with a history. Our community has been in Quebec for 200 years, it is a very highly developed fundraising structure and it is well aware that the resettlement of immigrants must be a priority.
Mr. Nunez: My second question if for Mr. Faustin, the Director of the Communauté chrétienne des Haïtiens de Montréal, with which I'm very familiar. I also know his father and his sister who are currently in Haiti. You do very good work for members of the Haitian community, a large proportion of whom live in my riding, in Montreal north.
Representatives of the Centre communautaire des femmes sud-asiatiques spoke of taxes on immigration. Is this a problem for Haitians who come to Quebec or Canada?
Mr. Faustin: This is a problem that we've discussed in a petition that we signed individually and sent to whom it may concern. It's also a problem that we noted in our correspondence with officials of Immigration Canada. Many people think that this is a substantial tax, if you consider that not so long ago, the cost was far less. It's one of our concerns, and we have pointed it out.
Mr. Nunez: My second question concerns the services that you provide. Are the services for regular immigrants and refugees different? How many Haitian refugees come to Canada each year? Is that finished now that the government is trying to send them back to Haiti? What is the situation and what services do you provide?
Mr. Faustin: We do not feel that we can refuse services to refugee claimants, even though the service they are entitled to according to the agreements we have in the framework of the programs are limited to assistance in looking for housing. As a matter of fact, this is one of the notes we added to our progress reports in our annual report to government.
We help them prepare their documents for immigration, such as the personal information form. We refer them to lawyers who handle immigration cases. We make sure that they can find the necessary documents to get a work permit, for instance. We refer them to health and social service centres and to a wide range of services that we offer regular immigrants, because we don't have the heart to tell them that we can't help them and that we must refuse to provide them with such services.
Mr. Nunez: How many new immigrants of Haitian origin do you welcome in your centre each year?
Mr. Faustin: Up until last year, our statistics were more or less a compilation of services, which means that we can't tell you the actual number of services that we provided and how many services went to people who were already in our service network. Last year, about 200 refugee claimants solicited our services and came to us on a number of occasions, either for escort, or to fillout their documents, or because they were in some emotional distress.
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During a meeting that we organized, I had the opportunity to meet with the Minister of Immigration, Mr. Marchi, at the Table de concertation des organismes de Montréal au service des réfugiés. I think this was in February 1994. I was able to point out to him the distress that these people felt was mainly caused by the backlog, when their file, for whatever reason, has not been finally processed and continues to languish in the clogs of bureaucracy.
The technical changes made to immigration, that is the limit in personal human contacts and especially the increase in transfers of files to Vegreville mean that we have a heavier workload caused by the services that we must provide for these people.
These people are aware that the smallest error in their file, if handled by them, could translate into months of delays, because it goes to Vegreville and then comes back for adjustments required for presentation of the file.
[English]
The Chair: Thank you.
Ms Meredith will continue, then.
Ms Meredith (Surrey - White Rock - South Langley): With the round table discussions in other areas of the country there seemed to be a concern about how the dollars were apportioned to the various organizations. In Quebec, do you have a gathering of the associations that deal with resettlement to discuss priorities, to discuss where the money should go? Or is it a decision that's made strictly by the provincial government and the bureaucracy handling it?
I will just put it out, and any one of you can answer.
Mr. Mass: There are discussions that certainly take place around priorities in advisory committees, as was indicated. The decisions, though, are made solely by the ministry, to the best of my knowledge. Discussions take place between the ministry and the advisory committees, and they have significant participation from organizations such as ours which define priorities and directions and orientations. But the final decisions clearly belong to the ministry.
I should add that one of the things that happen, and it's a natural phenomenon and I don't have a brilliant recommendation for how to deal with it, is that there are only so many dollars in the pie, and the first year the pie is cut tends to be the standard for future years, regardless of other occurrences later on.
Ms Meredith: So you're not convinced there is enough input in the system or in the processing of the funds from these discussions.
Mr. Mass: The input is there. I don't think there are standards that say because of X, Y, and Z we will follow a funding formula as comes out of the discussions. As I said - and I ask my colleagues if they differ - the pie is cut once, and if you're lucky enough to get a good piece of the pie, or any piece of the pie, the first time, it's more likely you'll to continue to get a piece of that pie regardless of how your services or clientele change, for better or for worse.
Ms Meredith: Do you feel - this is something I've asked on other occasions - the onus should be on the refugees as opposed to the sponsored immigrants, because there is a responsibility of the families or of the persons sponsoring them to help with the resettlement, but with the refugee program there isn't that kind of commitment, other than by government to help them with resettlement? Do you feel when the dollars start getting tighter the sponsorship obligations have to be taken into consideration, or do you tend just to stay away from that kind of discussion?
Ms Lemaître: When you're talking about refugees, are you talking about a refugee or a refugee claimant? There is a big difference between the two.
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The Chair: Which is often confused by the public.
Ms Clancy (Halifax): Frequently.
The Chair: And the opposition, sometimes.
Ms Meredith: I can't make that distinction because in many cases the government hasn't made the distinction, and it doesn't happen for a period of years.
Ms Lemaître: The government makes a clear distinction between the two. When they talk about a refugee, it's a person who is in a refugee camp outside the country chosen, and who came here legally. A refugee claimant is a person who enters the country illegally.
Ms Meredith: So we're talking about the two-thirds -
Ms Clancy: That term doesn't really exist in law.
The Chair: It's a person who seeks asylum in Canada.
Ms Clancy: It's not an illegal.
Ms Lemaître: I'm sorry, I take back my words.
Ms Meredith: Okay, so what we are talking about then are the two-thirds of refugee applications. As I understand it, about 7,000 or 8,000 come from government-sponsored refugee camps, and 24,000 come as inland claimants. Those are the ones you're having difficulty with.
Ms Lemaître: Exactly.
Mr. Mass: I think Madame Lemaître made reference to this earlier, but probably the most needy group is the one for which services are the most underfunded, and that is refugee claimants, those seeking asylum within Canada, who are in the most desperate situations. Generally, they've fled without any resources and they arrive to no resources. They are living with the psychological trauma of having to dwell on the horrors they've suffered in order to stay in Canada. So in every way - psychologically and economically - they're the most needy group, yet their services are most underfunded.
If we take someone who's sponsored by family and that family sponsorship breaks down, their needs will parallel those of a refugee claimant because they've been dealing with dependency issues. So there is no magic.
We're in a position where, when someone arrives at our doors, those definitions are shed, not because we're good samaritans but because our job is to help people. We try to help them starting from their point of view. I understand that it's very difficult for government funding mechanisms to respond to that, but that's the reality that we live, that our clients live.
Ms Chew: I'd like to say something about the grants, the funding.
As my colleague said, you apply for the grant and if there's going to be a cut, then that's how the distribution is done. You submit your grant application and then you receive a cut if the funding is going to be cut. That's how we get our funding - by applying for grants. It's not done in a process of discussion.
The refugees will need much more, and that has to be given. It takes a lot of the centre's resources to give the moral support they need after fleeing a situation that is so insecure. The refugee claimant needs reinforcement and moral support, which is also very draining. They need all the resources that are available to someone coming in as an immigrant sponsored by families.
The families here who sponsor families are not so wealthy that they can keep on supporting the sponsored people. When things break down, when someone loses a job and the whole situation that we have now, it's very difficult to continue the sponsorship. I don't know how we can improve this situation, but suddenly the person who has sponsored a family member is penalized because they lost their job and cannot support the person they sponsored. It makes for a triple burden on the sponsoring person. I don't know if there can be more support for a refugee versus a sponsored person or something like that. I think it should all be there.
[Translation]
The Chair: Mr. Faustin, do you have anything to add?
Mr. Faustin: Yes. One of the criteria examined when subsidies are distributed is the scope of services, that is the size of the clientèle that must be served. Once that is established, your ability to offer more services can also be measured. It is rather rare to have organizations expand rapidly.
.1030
Funds have also been allocated for other types of services, for example the employment-related support program. This is rather a recent program which grew over the years to enable groups to face the reality of socio-economic integration. The best way to integrate somebody is to find them a job or show him how to find one.
That's all I wanted to add.
The Chair: Ms Acosta.
Ms Acosta: I would like to clarify certain points. Claimants are those who have no rights. Refugees have rights because they have been accepted as refugees. That has to be said. It's not only Haitians who need escorts to help them fill in forms, but also who have psychological trauma, who come from everywhere and who require a great deal of our time. They come from Latin America or Eastern Europe.
The Chair: I must interrupt the discussion. We are not here to determine who are refugee claimants and who are actual refugees. I think that after having sat on this committee for a year, the members know this.
[English]
Mrs. Terrana (Vancouver East): Good morning.
[Translation]
Thank you for your appearance.
I would like to begin with the Jewish Immigrant Aid Services.
[English]
You mainly look after refugees, right?
Mr. Mass: We respond to whoever comes to our service at any point in time. The world has changed incredibly over the past five years, particularly as it relates to the Balkans. The primary source of our clientele is the former Soviet Union. Our clientele has changed and our service has changed in response. We are currently providing service to over 400 families, and our mandate is to serve people for over two years. About 60% of those people have arrived in Canada as independent immigrants, and the other 40% are refugees, either those who've achieved refugee status or those who are on the way to doing so.
Mrs. Terrana: Are you a national agency?
Mr. Mass: That's correct.
Mrs. Terrana: You were given a book, and there is a whole series of questions on our obligations -
The Chair: Do you want to indicate which book? Is it Consultation on Settlement Renewal: The Issues?
Mrs. Terrana: Yes, that is right.
I have it in French.
[Translation]
The Chair: It doesn't matter.
Ms Terrana: It's on page 9.
The Chair: These are the questions in French.
Ms Terrana: There are certain requests concerning obligations toward refugees, and with your agreement, I would like you to study them and give us answers, but not today. However, we must obtain answers to these requests that come from all over the country. I think that with your experience, you're able to answer us.
Mr. Masse: Are you referring to page 9?
Ms Terrana: I think it's on page 9. Do you have the French or English text?
Mr. Masse: It's the same thing in English.
Mrs. Terrana: You have it in English. Okay.
[English]
What is the obligation...?
The Chair: It is pages 8 and 9.
Mrs. Terrana, do you want a specific question? Are you talking about obligations?
Mrs. Terrana: I have a whole series of questions. I think we need answers. I am looking at Quebec as a possibility for an answer, because you've been dealing with this for longer than the other provinces have. The whole book applies, and if there are any questions in the book that you can answer, or can give us some good suggestions or recommendations....
The Chair: The ministry is doing an ongoing consultation. These are the documents that were produced by the ministry and were sent to most, if not all, non-governmental agencies for consultation.
.1035
We don't expect an answer to each of these questions. You just saw the documents, and we only received them as a committee on Tuesday. If in future you would like to bring forward your comments in the ministry.... Unfortunately, you won't be able to do that before the committee because our report has to be tabled before December 15, when we convene. If at a future date you would like your answers to some of those questions make known, I'm sure we can forward it to the ministry.
Ms Clancy: We would be delighted to have any of that information as well, because the consultations take all sorts of modes. The committee is one, but anything you want to send can be sent to me or to the minister's office, whichever you prefer, and that's for everybody.
Mr. Nunez: Don't forget that settlement is under provincial jurisdiction.
The Chair: We have not questioned that, Mr. Nunez.
Ms Clancy: [Inaudible - Editor] I feel I can ask the questions at any time and people can answer them. The answering of questions is not a jurisdictional issue.
Mr. Nunez: Sometimes you forget that.
Ms Clancy: Mr. Nunez, I never forget it.
Mrs. Terrana: I'm from British Columbia, and we are looking at changing the whole settlement situation in British Columbia. Negotiations are going on with our province and
[Translation]
we are looking at changing the whole immigration situation, but in a smart way. That is the reason why I am asking you whether you can answer those questions. We could surely learn from your experience, even if Mr. Nunez believes it's a jurisdictional issue.
You cannot answer? That is fine. I would have more questions for Mr. Faustin.
Mr. Faustin, you've said that 18 months is not enough time. How much time should we consider, in your opinion.
Mr. Faustin: I cannot specify any given period. I believe that the government should, for example, harmonize criteria with the time period required to become a Canadian citizen. That would be a minimum.
Mrs. Terrana: Would three years be enough?
Mr. Faustin: I do not say that it would be enough, but at least it would be in line with the time required to become a canadian citizen. Moreover, there would be a process available for that person to prove he or she is a good candidate for citizenship.
Mrs. Terrana: Many people say that three years is not enough and that we should more flexible in terms of time.
Mr. Faustin: Yes, that is correct.
Mr. Mass: You are asking me when an immigrant stops being an immigrant. Immigrants will tell you; "Never". Up to 18 months, it could well be a basic delivery point.
Usually, the first year is devoted to language learning, understanding the new culture, work standards of the new country, etc. Entering the labour force occurs within the next six months. Then, there are other services that support labour force entrance, such as counselling, job entry and interaction with various communities.
We could consider the 18 month-to-two-year period as phase I and than phase II could give access to another level of services. That way, we could provide services in a smarter way.
[English]
Ms Chew: I want to support what he said, because we have this fact that 18 months is not enough time. You've asked what a good period would be, but I think we have to go with a negative and know that everyone here feels that 18 months is not enough for this.
.1040
Mrs. Terrana: I'll ask you this. Would 18 months be enough if it was applied to the immigrant in a different way? There are immigrants who come here and have to work right away. They cannot go to school and take the language. But they maybe can start after four years, if they have landed in Canada. Then would 18 months be enough if we apply it in a different way?
Ms Chew: I don't know if you have a point there, because there's a certain cut-off period when, after you've been here for a certain number of years, you cannot apply for immigration services and settlement. But as you're saying, if you have to come here and work, and you cannot get these services right away, like the language classes, you should be able to have this deferred until the time when you could do this. I don't know what the period would be. I'm not sure.
But say someone comes here, lives here for a little while, and learns other parts of settling into the country. If then they take the 18 months, it might work. I don't know.
[Translation]
The Chair: Mrs. Acosta, do you have any comments?
Ms Acosta: Yes. You have to admit that things are different for different people. Besides, each group recognizes that it is different. There is the occupation, culture, religion, and so on.
At present, young people are coming into our province from France and they do speak French. They don't need any language training. They just have to find a job. But those who come from Latin America are sometimes illiterate and they need time. Therefore, we must be flexible.
Mrs. Terrana: It all depends on the immigrant himself.
Ms Acosta: That is correct.
[English]
Mrs. Terrana: I have two brief questions. You cut me out in the beginning, right?
What I want to know is
[Translation]
do you work together as a community? For example, when Haitians are coming to Notre-Dame-de-Grâce, do you send them into the Haitian community?
Ms Lemaître: We offer them a service when they come and see us but we automatically tell them that there is a Haitian group. There is none in Notre-Dame-de-Grâce. However, we have many wealthy Jews. We tell them about JIAS. We explain to them services that are provided by that group and how to get there. We do not tell them that we won't provide them with any service and that they have to go somewhere else. We do not do that. We inform them about services available in the neighbourhood where they live.
Anyway, all newcomers shop around, whether they are refuges claimants, refugees or immigrants. They shop around our agencies and have a file in every of them.
[English]
Mrs. Terrana: The same thing applies, then, to the south Asian women. You surely have a difficult task at times, right?
Ms Chew: Yes.
Mrs. Terrana: This is my last question, I promise.
The Chair: Yes, it is your last question.
Mrs. Terrana: What I want to ask has to do with your advisory committees. You mentioned advisory committees. Do you have a local committee that meets regularly to make decisions on which direction at the community or grassroots level?
[Translation]
Ms Acosta: We have consultations with other employment and reception agencies. They meet every month and select their representatives with the government.
Mrs. Terrana: Does it work?
Ms Acosta: Very well.
Mrs. Terrana: Thank you.
[English]
The Chair: Mr. Dromisky.
Mr. Dromisky (Thunder Bay - Atikokan): First, I'd like to thank you very much for coming. You represent something that is really wonderful and beautiful in this country. You represent organizations that contribute a tremendous amount of time, effort, concern and caring for the future citizens of this country. On behalf of the Canadian people, I thank you and all the volunteers who are involved very much.
I have a question that's related to the kind of budgeting you were talking about, Mr. Mass. You indicated that you do receive funds from outside sources. In other words, it's not government grants, and so forth. It's outside of government institutions.
This question pertains to all of you. Are there any user fees charged for services in the province, or anywhere in Canada, with your organization, or are there any user fees charged where services are being provided outside the country, for instance, in Russia or Ukraine?
.1045
The Chair: Mr. Mass, would you like to respond?
Mr. Mass: The only user fees we're involved in at this point - and it's something we consider - are really registration fees of a symbolic nature to ensure people will commit to participating in a program funded in another way. It's a $10 registration for something - that kind of thing. It's not an intention to cover costs.
There are certain programs we could have. This is where I get into it, after the eighteen-month period or the two-year period or whatever it might be. What are the things people want and that we could provide in a more cost-effective way for them and for us if we had -
Mr. Dromisky: Do you have user fees for additional programs to enhance the total program for individuals?
Mr. Faustin: Generally our programs are totally free of any charge, except for day camps in summer, painting groups, or cultural groups. If they have a special activity they want to implement, we help them implement it and they're going to have to participate somehow. We have some sports activities such as karate or artistic activities such as painting. They contribute a fee to improve the service we could offer. But any other kinds of services are totally free.
Ms Sanjukta Dasgupta (Community Worker, South Asia Women's Community Centre): We don't have any user fees either. We don't charge any user fees except for language classes. We provide a lot of photocopies, so that is a kind of incentive for the student to come and take courses without buying the books. We always tell them, come to the class and get the lessons, we will provide you with the materials. We charge $10 for that - just for the photocopy costs.
For the summer camp, too, we charge $15. That covers transportation for our volunteers. We can hire only two counsellors. We cannot afford to have a lot of volunteers. Forty children take part in the summertime.
Ms Lemaître: We charge a fee only for translation and legalization of documents. It's $10 per page. Legalization is $2.
All our services are free. Classes are free. French language lessons are free.
The only thing we charge is a $25 registration for English classes, which are free. They are given by the Protestant school commission. We charge a $25 fee for registration for English classes only.
The Chair: Mr. Assadourian, one minute.
Mr. Assadourian (Don Valley North): One minute?
The Chair: Yes, we don't have time. I need ten minutes. I'm sorry you weren't here earlier.
Mr. Assadourian: I'm sorry, Madam Chair. I was here at 9 a.m. The meeting didn't start until 9:45 a.m. I said I'd be leaving early.
The Chair: Mr. Assadourian, do you have a question?
I'll go to Mr. Nunez. Mr. Nunez, please.
[Translation]
Mr. Nunez: I have a supplementary for Mr. Mass and Ms Lemaître regarding the training courses that are provided. You know that English is very powerful and that it is hard to attract people into speaking French in Quebec. There are also legitimate concerns of Quebeckers. How do you deal with those concerns? Are most of your classes given in English or in French?
Ms Lemaître: Our classes are in French during the day. We have eight French language classes. There are four levels, going from beginner to advance. Every day, about 300 people attend French courses. Besides, the Centre was given a recognition award for the promotion of the French language in Quebec.
We have started with English classes in September 1994, because we were aware of the fact that all those people coming from eastern Europe were over qualified. They are professionals. For instance, engineers had to speak English in order to find a job. Those classes are offered in the evening by the Separate School Board of Montreal, English section, as well as by a protestant school, and it is a six hour a week course.
.1050
Mr. Mass: In addition to French classes, our community, together with YMCA is providing English classes in the same environment. In order to work in Quebec you must be bilingual especially if you are an immigrant. I would even say that one should be at least trilingual because immigrants already speak another language.
[English]
The Chair: Mr. Assadourian, we still have time if you wish to ask a question. I apologize.
Mr. Assadourian: No, it's okay. Thank you very much.
The Chair: I'd like to thank everyone.
[Translation]
Thank you very much.
If you have other comments or answers to questions that are already available in departmental records, please send them directly to the minister or this committee, or to the Department of Immigration and Cultural Communities. They will be appreciated. You have a valuable experience very different from the rest of the country. Given that fact we do need your comments. Thank you very much and have a good day.
[The Committee goes into camera]