[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]
Tuesday, December 12, 1995
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[English]
The Joint Chairman (Mr. Richardson): We have a quorum and I'd like to call the meeting to order.
I welcome Senator Doyle, who will be co-chairing with me today. It's also my pleasure to welcome Mr. Paré and his senior staff to bring us from the present to the future in the plans for the library.
Welcome, Mr. Paré.
Mr. Richard Paré (Parliamentary Librarian, Library of Parliament): Thank you,Mr. Co-Chairman.
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We have circulated two documents this morning, one on the new trends in the library and the other one on the main estimates for 1996-97. I must apologize for not having circulated both documents before. The main estimates were ready just yesterday and were submitted to the two Speakers only yesterday. It was just finalized yesterday. We had a delay with the translation for the other document about new trends.
Mr. Co-Chairman, first I would like to introduce my colleagues. With me are
[Translation]
Mr. Jean-Jacques Cardinal, who is Director General of Administration and Personnel;
[English]
Mr. Hugh Tiley, the accountant in the library,
[Translation]
Mr. François Lemay, Director General of Information and Technical Services;
[English]
and Mr. Hugh Finsten, director general of research.
As for the new trends in the library, first I would like to talk about new technology. The upgrade of the CD-ROM tower will provide members' offices with ready access to major newspapers, encyclopedias, dictionaries, magazine indexes and statistics. We hope that will be ready as soon as February 1996.
The library has also acquired multimedia work stations to be used by clients. These work stations are characterized by their multimedia capabilities for sound and images from reference sources like encyclopedias on CD-ROM.
[Translation]
The clipping file section has recently undertaken several initiatives to conserve and make more readily available this material. Our plan focuses on tranferring relevant files to CD-ROM. A weeding program has just been completed and appropriate software and hardware has been aquired. A pilot CD-ROM will be completed once the software has been installed.
[English]
Turning now to collections, in the past eight years our CD-ROM collection has grown from2 titles to about 125. Library staff in any building can have access at the same time to about 40 discs on the CD tower. The use of commercial on-line databases has increased by over 11% from last year. Up to now we have replaced only a very small number of print publications with electronic ones, but we believe this trend will increase.
Another important trend is the cost increase of print material in the past year due to the significant rise in paper costs and the decrease in value of the Canadian dollar. Our response has been to review all periodical renewals, reduce the number of copies of books purchased, negotiate discount and flat fees, and join consortia of libraries to improve our purchasing power.
Turning now to the research support and analysis, on members' services, due to the heavy workload and short deadlines, the trend is to provide quick, concise responses in the form of short notes, oral briefings and consultation by telephone or in meetings and off-the-shelf materials such as branch publications or material from other publications.
Nevertheless, the branch prepared over 450 substantive papers last year. Substantive products tailored to the individual member are resource-intensive and may require a rationing system in the future.
For committee support the branch provides professional staff to almost every committee in the House and Senate. All of our professional staff members are attached to one committee or more. The centralized service we provide is cost-effective considering that the staff members are also responsible for handling the other work assignments of the branch for both Houses of Parliament. However, the role and influence of committees are enhanced if these strengths continue, and they will place significant increased demand on professional staff, which will be difficult to satisfy without more resources.
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On the publications, many requests from members can be handled by the research branch publications concerning policy issues, legislation and other matters. It is a key role of the research branch to sustain all publications programs. In the near future we will make all publications lists available on-line to members and their staffs. Electronic availability of the full text of our documents will follow at some later point.
The research branch supports the parliamentary associations and the work in this area has increased over the past two years. Our professionals prepare background materials and act as technical advisers with the delegations.
As a general trend, as a result of access to Internet and a multitude of information sources, the library expects a significant increase in requests from members' offices to screen, explain, analyse, sensitize and organize information for parliamentarians in our research and reference services.
Now I would like to say a word on rationalization of services. On Parliament Hill, the library has transferred its network service section, transportation services and tenant services to the House of Commons. The House of Commons has transferred its public information office to the library and the Senate has transferred the responsibility of its acquisition of books and periodicals for senators and the operation of its reading room to the library. All of these transfers have been done in partnership. We believe these transfers will prove to be more cost-effective in the long run.
[Translation]
In the library, we have planned some rationalization of services by undertaking a program review of operations, services and products. Several positive results will be achieved with respect to support services, photocopiers and internal mail operations.
We are within the deadlines set for this exercise but we hope to bring about even more savings which will have an impact in 1996-97 and 1997-98.
[English]
I'd like to say a few words about the renovations to the library building. The long-term renovation plan on Parliament Hill includes the centre block and the library building. According to these plans, the library building will be vacated around 1998-99. We are completing a long-term accommodation plan for the library that will be submitted soon to the two Speakers and to the standing joint committee.
Several options are being examined for the library building, and we will recommend that the current building continue to serve the Senate and the House of Commons as a library into the 21st century. Because of its close proximity to the Parliament chambers in the centre block, this location will remain the major focal point for reference services and collections. Visitor reception facilities will be enhanced and upgraded in the library. We believe the Library of Parliament will continue to be the main parliamentary research library in Canada during the 21st century.
The planning has begun for the major renovations. It is in the context of this exercise that some of you were interviewed recently to comment on the information system visions and strategy study. I thank you for your cooperation in that matter. The Department of Public Works and Government Services experts would be more than happy to appear as witnesses at future meetings of this committee.
If you will allow me, Mr. Co-Chairman, I would like to now say a word about the main estimates of 1996-97. There are four transparencies I would like to show you on the screen and try to explain.
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As you can see from the budget - the main estimates from 1992 to 1997-98 - the trend is to decrease the resource. But from main estimate to main estimate we have a decrease from 1994-95 to 1995-96 of 2.729%. The next one is 2.71%, and in 1997-98 the target is to cut 3%. But these figures are always from the main estimates to the main estimates - the base of the budget.
These have an impact of the personnel, the person years and the FTEs. I will show you the next one just to give you an idea of the impact on the staff. The reduction you see in 1994-95 was a reduction of 6.9 FTEs. This year it's 12 FTEs, but it's cumulative. We will reach 18 in 1996-97.
If I turn to the budget estimate 1996-97, you will see at the revised base, which is the third line, there's a decrease of 2.71%. In the line from May to May is where we see the reduction in the budget.
In the next three lines, since we have a transfer with the House of Commons, you see that transfer out of the information system I mentioned before. The network support service that we transferred to the House is shown as a $242,000 decrease, and the transfer of the public information office is a $1,715,000 increase.
The third line shows the statutory item, which was increased from 13% to 14.5% at the request of the Treasury Board.
My last comment is that in 1997-98 we plan cuts of 3%, but it will be from the base. It won't include the transfer that has occurred this year because we feel if we apply the cuts after the transfer it will affect service. We plan to maintain the same level of service with this transfer.
[Translation]
We will certainly be pleased to answer any questions you might want to ask.
[English]
The Joint Chairman (Mr. Richardson): Thank you very much, Mr. Paré. We'll start the questioning with Madame Debien s'il vous plaît.
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[Translation]
Mrs. Debien (Laval East): In the report that you sent us on September 17, 1995 and which refers to a progress report dated June 30, 1995, you mentioned that you planned to ask committees to refund the library for the salary paid to researchers when the services of more than one researcher are required by a committee and you also wanted a payment for the overtime resulting from work done for committees. What has become of that request? Has it been passed along?
Mr. Paré: First, we recommended that committees avail themselves of our research services before going outside. It has been passed along and acknowledged.
As for the request you are referring to, we have not made it yet because we have been able to meet all requests for research without resorting to that. However, as I mentioned earlier, we might consider going that route in future years if our resources remain at the same level.
Mrs. Debien: Yes, because, following the motion we had tabled and which had been passed along to both Speakers, Mr. Parent, among other people, answered that there was a guideline of the Board of Internal Economy which specifically requested committees to call upon the research services in priority before hiring outside people under contract; however, in Mr. Parent's answer, no reference is made to any related budget transfer, although we had asked for it in our motion.
Therefore, if I understand your presentation correctly, this will depend on quantity. If there are really too many requests, you might look into the possibility of asking both Speakers to grant you appropriate budgets.
Mr. Paré: Yes.
Mme. Debien: Or rather, to provide committees with the necessary budgets.
Mr. Paré: Yes.
Mrs Debien: Because that is where the money is.
Mr. Paré: Yes. To date, Madam, we have not had to do that. There has been some overtime resulting from the work of committees. During the fiscal year 1994-95, overtime has increased considerably.
This year, we have managed to reduce it somewhat. From 150,000 during the first year, they have come down to 75,000 or 80,000 this year. To date, the surplus of work has resulted mostly in overtime for some researchers.
Mrs Debien: Allright.
Mr. Paré: If we find that we need a supplementary estimate, we will ask the Speakers to give us some additional funding. I could ask Mr. Cardinal to add some details.
Mr. Jean-Jacques Cardinal (Director general, Administration, Library of Parliament): Mrs Debien, I want to emphasize that, regarding overtime, the researchers have been very cooperative. They have been encouraged to use up their compensatory leave during slack periods so as to greatly reduce the amount of overtime to be paid.
I want to emphasize that, in the context of the budgetary cuts, the initiative taken by the management of the library and the good cooperation demonstrated by the researchers regarding the use of compensatory leave for their overtime have been of great assitance to help us stay within our budget.
Mrs Debien: Please, excuse me for beeing ignorant or naive, but in the document New trends in the Library of Parliament, you state on page 4:
The Library of Parliament has transferred its network support systems section... to the House of Commons...
This is not very clear to me. What does it mean? Have you transferred the budgets and not the services?
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Mr. Paré: The budget, the services and the staff.
Following the budgetary cuts announced by the Finance Minister in his 1994 budget, there have been preliminary consultations between the Senate, the House and the library to determine how we could rationalize certain services rather than keeping them working side by side. In the library, the network support systems section was made up of four people, I think, whereas, in the House of Commons, the same section had a team of more than 100 people.
We have therefore concluded that it would be advisable to transfer our service to the House, since this will enable us to save money in the long term. This service is now provided to us by the House. An agreement was reached between partners. The same thing has been happening the other way around with the House tranferring its public information office to the library.
Mrs Debien: Thank you.
I would have another question but I will leave the floor to Mr. Mayfield.
[English]
The Joint Chairman (Mr. Richardson): I think we are going to be requested to leave.
[Translation]
We should go to the vote.
[English]
That's a half-hour bell, is it?
You've only had five minutes. Have another question and then we'll go around the circle.
[Translation]
Mrs Debien: Still looking at this document on the new technologies, you refer to the renovations on page 4. In the progress report that you submitted to us, you mentioned repairs to the various libraries and the closing down of some branches, including the one in the Wellington building that I am more specifically interested in. What decisions have been made? Are they final?
Mr. Paré: With regard to the Wellington branch, I have the pleasure to inform you that it will open again by late December or early January. The renovations have been completed and we are going to make it ready for use within the next two months.
As for the branch located in the Confederation Building, we have consolidated the third floor reading room and the first floor branch. This branch should open within the next few months.
Mrs Debien: Thank you, Mr. Paré.
[English]
The Joint Chairman (Mr. Richardson): Thank you very much. Mr. Mayfield and then Senator Milne.
Mr. Mayfield (Cariboo - Chilcotin): Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
I appreciate you coming to share your plans with us. I'd like to ask just a few questions to fill in the blanks and get an idea in my mind of how things are proceeding.
My understanding is that some physical deficiencies within the library have to be corrected. There needs to be restructuring and strengthening of the building. Is that correct? The library is actually going to move out of there for a period of time. Did you say 1998-99? How long will you be away, and how will service be provided during that time? Where will you be going? Do you have this figured out yet?
Mr. Paré: I can't answer all three of your questions, but I'll try. First, we will move, as you say, in 1998-99. It appears all the staff and the collections will have to be moved out. According to Public Works the move will be for a minimum of two years. In answer to your third question, I don't know exactly where we are going at this time. This has to be discussed and defined.
The House knows it will be going to West Block, but for the library, we don't know.
Mr. Mayfield: I presume the plan is to continue providing the service during this time.
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Mr. Paré: Exactly. They will provide the same level and the same quality of service during the move.
Mr. Mayfield: There are some major changes coming. I lack familiarity with the technology and how it's done. You mentioned newspapers will be transferred to CD-ROM and MPs can access it. You're not talking about the morning newspaper being on CD-ROM when we come to work in the morning, are you?
Mr. Paré: No. The morning newspapers would not, because they have to be transferred. But we now have in the library access to an on-line database where we have the morning paper during the same day. We have the paper available on-line but not on CD-ROMs.
Mr. Mayfield: Members could access this, then.
Mr. Paré: Eventually, yes. There's a cost to it, though.
Mr. Mayfield: Would this cost be to the member's budget?
Mr. Paré: I would say it certainly will not be on the library budget at this time because of the low budget. We'd have to look into it. Let's answer this way. The library budget would not be able to support this at the moment.
Mr. Mayfield: I'm thinking of you transferring everything you have in the library to the electronic medium. How is this done? Is it actually typed in manually, or is it photographed?
Mr. Paré: I must say my knowledge is limited. But my understanding is it is done by optical scanning. I know in Washington, not at the CRS but at the Library of Congress, they have a major project in this area of digitization of collections. I know the National Library here in Canada is looking into it and they have a smaller project. What we are doing is monitoring those very closely to see what is coming in the future. But I don't think at this time the library would be ready to do this here because of the cost of the technology and the cost to do it.
Mr. Mayfield: These are the questions underlying what I'm asking. You mention the Library of Congress is involved in this. Would what they do be available, at a cost of course, to the Library of Parliament?
Mr. Paré: Yes. We have access to their electronic documentation. Through Internet we have access to THOMAS, which is probably the name of their parliamentary database. I think it comes from the name Thomas Jefferson. They call it THOMAS and we have access to it through Internet. More and more, we use the Internet network to have access to information and documentation from around the world. It's growing progressively.
Mr. Mayfield: Is there a licensing cost or is there some cost for the Library of Parliament?
Mr. Paré: I wouldn't say for this THOMAS, perhaps, but for some, yes. Some on-line databases have licensing costs and we have to pay those.
Mr. Mayfield: You mentioned briefly the service the library provides to members and that your emphasis has been more on quick and concise responses, even to telephone calls. Where there is need for some in-depth research, are you planning to continue this at members' requests?
You also mentioned the little word ``rationing''. As a member myself, I flagged this word. With the squeeze that is upon you, I'm wondering how you see this rationing taking place. How will members be able to have the service that is legitimately needed?
Mr. Paré: We will continue to answer individual requests. What we have done, as I explained in my notes, is to go with more concise answers rather than in-depth papers because of the resources available. On the rationing system, I would perhaps ask Mr. Finsten to answer a bit more.
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Mr. Hugh Finsten (Director General, Research Branch, Library of Parliament): Thank you, Mr. Paré.
I think we were asked to look at the future trends of the library. Certainly in the research branch we're finding that with the various programs we're doing and with the committee work and the work we're doing for individual members increasing - last year, these represented about 57% and 30% to 35% of the time of our professional staff, respectively - you can see, with regard to the budget, that our budget is decreasing. This means a lot of pressure for our staff. It means we have to look at how we can allocate our various resources among our programs.
We also mention how useful our publications are. As the demands increase in other areas, unfortunately there are fewer publications. That makes it more difficult to use off-the-shelf products to answer requests.
When you look at this variety of programs, the decrease in our budget and the increasing demands, we're suggesting the various aspects of our work have to be looked at to see how we can satisfy the demands. One possibility is looking at rationing, perhaps with regard to staff on committees, perhaps with regard to the more in-depth requests that take a lot of time. We haven't actually sat down to look at how we're going to do it. As I say, with regard to demands increasing and resources decreasing, something has to give in the future. We will have to look at some type of rationing if this situation continues.
Mr. Mayfield: It's the ``something that has to give'' that I guess we're all concerned about.
I'm wondering if there is some attempt by the library to liaise with the parliamentarians about their needs, about where the give will come. Will it have to be that more resources will be provided, or will it be that the information and the services that members require to do their job are diminished? Those are really tough questions. It seems to me it would be very difficult for the library to answer those questions in isolation, that in fact there would have to be an understanding and an agreement about what we are all prepared to do without. Are the channels of communication being established for that kind of dialogue?
Mr. Paré: I would like to make a general comment on that, and it applies both to the reference and the research services. The way we see it, the factual and short questions will, more and more, be answered by the members, the senators and their staffs. More substantive, more in-depth requests will come to the library. That is a general trend that may be coming. It's still really too soon to say, but this is what we foresee after this last year. This year the trend will see things picking up and going that way.
Mr. Mayfield: What other innovative ideas do you people have that might close the gap that seems to be appearing between need and resources to supply those needs? We're going more and more to technology. Are there other innovative ideas in the background?
Mr. Paré: I'm not sure they are so innovative, but we certainly are ready to train members and senators and their staffs for accessibility to Internet as soon as the decision is made to provide members with access. We already have staff ready for that. These librarians have trained the staff in the library - about forty, I think - and now we are ready to move. This is something we are supposed to do as soon as you're ready.
As I indicated, we will provide access to the CD-ROM towers, which will give you forty CD-ROMs at the same time. You can have access to newspapers, periodicals and magazines. This is something that is coming next year. A bit later next year, and I asked this of Mr. Fleurant, probably in the second trimester, we will be able to give you access to the on-line catalogue of the library directly from your office. Again, you will have access and you can ask the library for a book or information directly.
Maybe these are not really innovative, but they are coming.
Mr. Mayfield: Do you have a time in mind?
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Mr. Paré: They're all coming in the next six months, or the next year or so. I cannot speak for the Internet training because the decision has to be taken by the House of Commons.
Mr. Mayfield: You mentioned that about forty offices are established. Have you provided training for those offices?
Mr. Paré: Yes, in-house. We have librarians ready to provide that training to the members and members' offices. This was part of the responsibility we were given for Internet implementation on the Hill.
Mr. Mayfield: Is there an attempt by our library to liaise with other departmental libraries? Are there savings, or is this...?
Mr. Paré: We are in very close communication with the National Library. We also have an agreement with the Council of Federal Libraries, where we are part of the consortium to negotiate flat fees for publications. We are participating in that.
As for the cataloguing and classification of materials, especially official publications, we have had a committee with the National Library because we believed there was an overlap. They were cataloguing the same publications we were. Now we have been able to eliminate this overlapping by 85% and 90%.
As you see, we continue to be involved with other libraries and to avoid any duplication in the work we do, in the processing, because we believe that would be money not well spent. So it is more in that area that we are working with other libraries and government.
Mr. Mayfield: Thank you very much.
The Joint Chairman (Mr. Richardson): Thank you, Mr. Mayfield. Senator Milne.
Senator Milne (Brampton): Thank you, Chairman.
Before I ask you a question, perhaps I could tell the committee something that I know Senator Doyle is well aware of but the members may not be.
The Senate is no longer wired into the library. We cannot get information on-line from the library. I should tell you that I find it a very frustrating situation. On the Internet, my son in Calgary can get right into the Library of Parliament and I'm 150 feet down the hall and I can't. I've got to let my legs do the walking, or let my staff do the walking, or a send a messenger to get into the information there.
That leads to my question. If senators had access to the library by computer, would this help in your efforts to reduce some of your costs of services to the Senate or to Senate committees?
Mr. Paré: The short answer would be no, but I will explain.
First I want to comment on the access of the Senate to the library. The catalogue will be made available to the two Houses in the next few months, but I think for the Senate there's a need for a technological upgrade of the equipment and the network. My understanding is that it's coming.
Senator Milne: Maybe as of tomorrow in the committee meeting rooms!
Mr. Paré: Perhaps I might ask Mr. LeMay to explain that a bit more. He's aware of what's coming.
Mr. François LeMay (Director General, Technical Services and Public Information Office, Library of Parliament): The issue is really a technological one where the Senate is not linked with the other infrastructure on the Hill.
But I do somewhat question.... Your son has access to Internet and has access to the front page leading to the Library of Parliament, but at this stage no one has access to the catalogue. So you're not that far away from getting better service than all the others. But once it's available on the Internet, this is one of the aspects we are considering. Since the technology is not, to my understanding, there to link the Senate directly to the library, by having access through the Internet you will be able to access our catalogue once we make it available. This is one of the projects we're looking at for the next six months, to make sure the Senate has access to our catalogue, as the members will have access through the internal communications channel.
Mr. Paré: And your son would have access at the same time.
Senator Milne: If you are going by February to a Windows-based network...if you're going to give the Senate access on a Windows-based network it isn't going to work with our network as it stands presently because most of the Senate is DOS-based. So right off the bat we're not going to be able to talk to what you're going to do.
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Mr. LeMay: You would still be able to access the catalogue. You would not be able in some cases to exchange the software we have, or with some of the CD-ROMs that may be only Windows-based you would perhaps not be able to access or get the same results as the members may be getting. But this basically is a technology issue on the side of the Senate. If you upgrade the equipment, you will have full access at the same level the members will have, because they have upgraded the equipment. That is my understanding, but I don't really know all the details on the Senate side, except that when you're talking about the DOS environment, that is one of the impacts.
Senator Milne: I can see this is going to cost the Senate money, which is not a popular thing to do at all anywhere in the country these days.
Mr. Paré: May I complete the answer? The last part of the question was, what will be the impact on the kinds of services? Will there be more or less services from the library?
When you have access to all this information from the library or from other newspapers and periodicals, the members' and senators' offices will find more directly the information they need. But the request for more substantive and in-depth research will be done through the library, and we won't have less in quantity -
Senator Milne: Of your workload.
Mr. Paré: - of the workload.
Senator Milne: My last question is really a sort of technical one. You know you're going to have to move out. You don't know where you're going, but you must have some sites you're looking at, given your specific requirements, the very specialized requirements you have for space.
Mr. Paré: We have had only preliminary discussions with the Department of Public Works and Government Services. But our requirements were to be as close as possible to the Hill, to go to maybe the Promenade building where we already have services. But after what we have seen happen in the last couple of weeks in that building - there was a shutdown of heating yesterday so the staff had to go - we're not sure this is the place we should go.
But yes, the requirements will be to be close and to maintain the same level of services to the members and senators. But we don't know at this moment. This remains to be planned.
Mr. LeMay: I want to clarify something. I was reminded that the Senate in fact can have access to our on-line catalogue by asking the technical people on the Senate side to give you the communications to our catalogue. It's not automatic, as it will be when we have the Windows environment and you can just click on it, but at the present time, by requesting from the technical people in the Senate, you can gain access to our catalogue.
Senator Milne: Thank you.
The Joint Chairman (Mr. Richardson): Would you like to make some comments, Senator Doyle?
The Acting Joint Chairman (Senator Doyle): I have a question, perhaps following up on what Senator Milne was asking.
What is the history of the two qualities of service, one for the members in the Commons and one for the Senate, in libraries? I have in my ignorance thought that the library was the one place where we met as equals.
Mr. Paré: This is the first time I have heard the expression ``two qualities of service'' for the House. For us, there's only one quality - the best we can provide to both Houses, senators and members.
I must say that the type of request is sometimes a bit different from the senators than the members. But we always provide first-quality service to both. I think we had last year, as I mentioned, about 485 major works. I think 285 or 275 were for the senators. So you see, we provide the same quality of service to both.
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The only thing we don't have control of is the technology. If the systems and the telecommunications systems do not allow that, that may be a difference. But it seems there's always an answer. Mr. LeMay indicated you could have access to the catalogue, but in a different way. We don't have control of that.
But in the quality of the service coming from the library, we treat the senators, the members, at the same level all the time, I guarantee you.
The Acting Joint Chairman (Senator Doyle): I was not meaning to question the quality. I was questioning the resources available, which would seem to be different and would require some looking at before I could.... I need more details than that.
On the question of - I think you've included it in one of your economies - the business of perhaps reducing the amount of information, where practical, my experience with getting less is that it usually costs more and takes more time to produce less. Is there going to be some effort to train people in condensation? Are you going to set up perhaps different models of...? If I want information on, say, a member of the U.S. Congress, I can get the Who's Who treatment or I can get the long New Yorker magazine treatment. I don't have to get the whole spiel each time I make a request. I'm thinking more of ways in which the user can make input into the process and know what to ask for when he wants short and snappy information.
Mr. Paré: My short comment would be that the user would certainly be more involved, with more access to all the systems of information that are on the database. That will be more and more available, for instance, through Internet.
The Acting Joint Chairman (Senator Doyle): That's what frightens me, really: Internet.
Mr. Paré: Let's talk a bit about Internet. I have had access to Internet for several months. It takes a lot of time to get used to and to find the information we want. So what we are doing at the library is we have developed people who are very good - excuse the expression, but this is the one they use - at surfing on the net.
Our staff are becoming navigators and surfers. I must tell you when I was young, I was so afraid of water that if you'd told me I would become a navigator, I never would have become a librarian.
Now we are starting to build up, for instance, bibliographies of sites on the Internet. If you want to go for parliamentary documentation from Australia, for instance, we will give you the addresses and the sites to go there. We are building an instrument that will be helpful to you when you have access to that.
So I think the users will be more in the process, because they will do more of the work. But they will call the library and ask, I have a problem with that; what can I do? We will be helpful and supportive.
The Acting Joint Chairman (Senator Doyle): That's comforting.
Mr. LeMay: I would simply add that one of the impacts we've already seen is that members and senators are getting more aware of what is out there but don't really have the time to do the search themselves. They are more demanding. At that point they're saying it must be available; if it's not in paper format, you must be able to get it on the Internet. So we have to do more work with the new technology than we ever anticipated.
At one point we thought members and senators, or some of their staff, would take over some of the searching, but what we are finding is that those who are already using Internet...because some on the Hill have commercial accounts for the Internet and have been using it. What they are soon doing is that because they are finding so much information, they are turning back to the library and asking the library to be selective in the information that is being passed on.
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We anticipate that this new technology or this access to more information will simply bring more questions to the library, or at least that they will be asking the library to support them in selecting the information. We don't anticipate that this will be a switch where members or their staff will do the searching and the library will be able to sort of start relaxing.
The Acting Joint Chairman (Senator Doyle): Are library schools sensitive to these changes and to what might be demanded of the next generation of librarians?
Mr. LeMay: Definitely. The library schools are now having people trained in the use of commercial databases and the Internet. They are spending a lot of hours on it and they have agreements with most suppliers to be able to do it at a very reasonable cost at school, but the new librarians we have are people who are definitely already aware of how to use this new technology. They can therefore move easily from the book material that we still need to searching in the electronic information systems that are accessible.
I tend to keep on saying that we can't think that the Internet will have everything on it. We can use the Internet. For us, it's another reference source, but there are a lot of commercial databases and a lot of printed material that are sometimes faster to search. One of the comments you made was about having access to a congressman's information or something like that. The electronic system definitely allows us to get that access up to date, but there is still a lot of material that we rely on the printed format for.
The Acting Joint Chairman (Senator Doyle): Thank you.
The Joint Chairman (Mr. Richardson): I have a couple of comments or questions I'd like to make as well.
It's important that all parliamentarians, both the Senate and the members, receive the same kind of service. I'm not saying that the blockage is at the Library of Parliament. It's how the budgets are distributed and selected in either House. The Senate decided to go with one retrieval base for information and the Commons has gone with another.
In Senator Milne's question, she was wondering whether the lack of accessibility was an impediment to some speedy receipt of information. I just wondered why there was that lack of compatibility on electronic retrieval between the two Houses. There doesn't seem to be that much of a significant difference in cost, but down the line it does impede their ability to retrieve quickly.
That's just one point, but that's not a problem for you, Mr. Paré. That's a problem that belongs to the Senate itself.
I was pleased to see you were talking about the new reading room in the Wellington Building and the consolidation in Confederation Building. Bringing everyone on-line early in 1996 will make it a lot.... These young people who we hire come in with skills and adaptability that far exceed those of members. We're still back in the print age. And I learned from my own children how to work this because it's not part of my professional work.
We look forward to it and I look forward to a time when we can see some of the things we're talking about. We suggested looking at the Library of Congress and the services. You know, we're all not broad.... Most of us are concrete thinkers on some levels and on other levels we get beyond the concrete. That would help us if we were to come back and request it. It would help us to substantiate it and to visualize some kind of future work here.
I would like to say that I hope along the way you do continue to offer the good services of workshops for staff, when it's possible and within costs. I don't know what they are, but certainly if it's a standardized workshop we know that everybody out there is working from the same technology level and the same capability level on the skills end. Parliamentarians will be served well in that way. I just hope you continue to provide that.
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I have no other questions because in thirty seconds I'm going to ask that we stand down while the parliamentarians go to vote. If you don't mind spending ten to fifteen minutes here, I don't think I want to cut off the discussion. What you have said is very important and we want to be as supportive of your projects as possible.
Mr. Paré: Mr. Chairman, I would just like to add a short comment that relates to what you said about having the members more informed and better involved in the new technology that we propose. For instance, we could give the members of the committee a demonstration at any time on the multi-media station that we have in the library. I mentioned that in my introductory notes, and we could organize a small session for you, the members of the committee, on how to deal with an encyclopedia on-line with the sound and the images. We have the capability now, and we certainly would be pleased to do that. You would then be more aware of the new technology.
The Joint Chairman (Mr. Richardson): I think we'd better move, but I think we're going to take you up on that. Would you mind coming back to confirm that? I think it's going to be a short vote, although I can never guarantee that.
Mr. Paré: We'll be ready.
The Joint Chairman (Mr. Richardson): Thank you.
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The Joint Chairman (Mr. Richardson): If I could have your attention, ladies and gentlemen, I think we'll reconvene and tie up our deliberations. Thank you for your patience. This is one of the idiosyncrasies of Parliament.
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I would like to just pick up on one or two things that were mentioned. I know the workload is heavy, and I know the number of researchers has grown over the years. Personally, I want to tell you I'm pleased with the quality of the research we're getting and with the people who work on this.
I would like to let you know, though, that I'm not happy when we job out. I have very strong concerns about jobbing out, but I will speak to you privately sometime as to why I have those concerns. If you are going to do it, however, I would like to see you set up guidelines to protect both yourselves and us, because I was involved in that last year and I had some grave concerns.
I think I've expressed to Mr. Finsten that it's nothing you do wrong, but what flows out of it may not be good. I think it could be a source of concern in the press in some cases, but I'll speak to that in private. Because of the past history around here, I have been fighting that since I've been here. I want everything open and at arm's length, but I don't think this has quite always happened.
Just to go on, I did appreciate getting that overview. I think we will be able to communicate back, since essentially all parties are represented. They're way ahead in the library. I think if we get time in our caucuses, we should report back that there is substantial change under way not only physically in the building but internally in the delivery of service.
I do want to make a point that we would like to know something about the hard details - that's what Public Works has in mind. We will be going on record in our next meeting by having the Public Works people come to explain to us the plan, the timetable and the outcome. They can explain what we can expect to see on the point of renovations, but certainly you know the character of the building will remain the same at least. I don't think anyone would tamper with that.
I have nothing more to say, so I'll throw it back to the members of the committee if they have anything they would like to ask or add.
First, Mr. Mayfield, and then Mrs. Debien.
Mr. Mayfield: Thank you very much. I won't be very long.
Just as a matter of clarification for my own understanding, on the summary of the budget it shows a transferring out of the information systems for a reduction of $242,000 and a transfer in of the public information office. What I'm asking for is a clarification of what the information system is. What service does the public information office provide? It seems like this was a bad trade for the library, financially at least.
Mr. Paré: I won't comment on the good or the bad of the trade.
Mr. Mayfield: You don't need to.
Mr. Paré: The network support system included people who were looking at all the computers networked in the library. They were the support used to see how it worked and how the technology was working. It was more for the hardware than the software.
Mr. Mayfield: That's the information system, is it?
Mr. Paré: Yes, and we had a small team of four people doing that. This team has been transferred to the House of Commons, where they have a large group. I think there is a staff of more than a hundred doing that for the House of Commons, so we believe they can provide a better sustained service to the library in the long term.
As for the public information office, as you know the House of Commons had this service providing information to the public on Parliament and on the House of Commons. They have a group answering phones to respond to questions, and they also answer questions coming from members' offices. In Westminster, the publication information office has been with their library for many years. I think it goes back to 1975 there.
When we discussed rationalization of certain services between the Senate, the House and the library, the thought came up that maybe the public information office should be with the library. Many of the questions that are addressed to this office are responded to with information and material coming from the library anyway, so there was a link between the two. This is why they have decided to transfer that to the library.
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Mr. Mayfield: I would presume the funds necessary to support that came with the office. Is that correct?
Mr. Paré: Yes, the figure, which you have, is $242,000 for transfer out; this is $242,000 that was transferred to the House. The other one - in - is $1,715,000 that was transferred to the library.
Mr. Mayfield: I appreciate that. My concern has been allayed because I can see that the budget of the library is being squeezed and you're being forced to economize and cut back. You've answered my question. Thank you very much.
The Joint Chairman (Mr. Richardson): Madame Debien.
[Translation]
Mrs Debien: Still looking at your document New trends in the Library of Parliament, you state in the penultimate paragraph on page 4 - I suppose this is related to the planning document that you had submitted to us in 1994:
- So far, the review...
- The program review, if I am not mistaken.
- ...has not fulfilled all of our expectations, but some positive results will be achieved with respect
to the support services, photocopiers and mail operations.
Mr. Paré: Yes. This is related to the document that we had circulated in November 1994 and also with the progress report we circulated in June 1995. We have set up some staff commitees to help us come up with solutions. We have put in place a very democratic process and therefore it took us much more time to get results than we had anticipated.
We have not obtained quite the results we expected, but this might be attributed to the lack of directions given to the committees. We did not want to intervene in the early stages; we gave them a topic, for example the issue of binding. We asked them to tell us how we could improve the current service and save money at the same time. We looked in detail at 6 or 7 services. We realized that the process was useful and that it has led to more staff involvement, both individually and collectively. On the other hand, results were not obtained as quickly as we had anticipated.
I can ensure you that we will see to it and that, in the next few months, we will meet the targets that we had set for ourselves.
Mrs Debien: Essentially, there has been some delay in the process. Your meeting the targets that you had set for yourselves is not jeopardised.
[English]
The Joint Chairman (Mr. Richardson): Senator Milne.
Senator Milne: I want to thank the gentlemen from the library. They've given me a bit of ammunition to see what we can do to update the Senate's system. I know the Senate's board of internal economy meets this Thursday, and I know they have previously turned down updating the Senate system. I hope that Senator Doyle will do a bit of lobbying on his side of the Senate - I certainly am going to on mine - to see what we can do to get in step with the rest of the Hill, because I think we either do it now or it's going to cost us a lot more in the future.
The Joint Chairman (Mr. Richardson): Gentlemen, in summary, I thank you very much for coming and setting the tone for the committee. We look forward to seeing you from time to time as we pass through this year. Thank you very much.
The meeting is now adjourned.