[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]
Wednesday, September 20, 1995
.1534 
[English]
Mrs. Brown (Calgary Southeast): Mr. Chairman, before we begin, I would like to make a notice for the record that this meeting was not given the standard 48-hour notice that should be given to the first meeting of any committee. That is under Standing Order 54, on appointment of committees. Also, Standing Orders 106.(1) and (2) say 48-hour notice must be given by the Clerk of the House before convening a meeting to elect a chair and a vice-chair. I got mine on September 19, 1995 at 14:49.
Ms Cohen (Windsor - St. Clair): I have a point of order, Mr. Chairman. For the record, one of the reasons it's being held now is that the whip for the Reform Party consented to, agreed to, and was complicit in the decision.
Mrs. Brown: I'm just making my statement for the record.
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Ms Cohen: Check with your whip.
Mrs. Brown: I'm checking with the Standing Orders and Beauchesne.
Ms Cohen: Check with your whip.
Mrs. Brown: Then I'll check with my whip.
Ms Cohen: Do your research.
Mrs. Brown: We did our research.
Ms Cohen: I don't think so.
Mr. McCormick (Hastings - Frontenac - Lennox and Addington): On a point of order, are we going to use Pacific Time, Mountain Time, or Central Time? Since we're getting down to the minutes here, what time zone will we be using?
The Clerk of the Committee: Am I obliged to answer, Mr. McCormick?
Mr. McCormick: You can ponder on it, sir.
The Clerk: Hon. members, I now see a quorum. In conformity with Standing Orders 106.(1) and 106.(2), your first item of business is to elect a chairperson. I am ready to receive motions to that effect.
[Translation]
I am ready to receive motions for the election of a chairman...
Mr. Laurin (Joliette): Or a chairwoman.
The clerk: ...or of a chairwoman, whatever the case. Thank you, Mr. Laurin.
Mr. Cauchon (Outremont): I move that Francis Leblanc be elected chairman of the committee.
The clerk: It is moved by Martin Cauchon, seconded by Francine Lalonde, that Francis Leblanc take the chair of the committee.
The motion is adopted
The clerk: Francis Leblanc is duly elected chairman of the committee.
[English]
I now invite Mr. Francis LeBlanc to take the chair.
Mrs. Jennings (Mission - Coquitlam): Mr. Chair, I have a notice on the floor.
The Chairman: Life is interesting already.
First I'd like to thank all of those who expressed their confidence in me as chair of this committee. I hope that, notwithstanding the political differences we may have around the table, we can all work together to do the work that the committee will give itself or accept from the House of Commons in the weeks and months ahead.
[Translation]
I would like to thank all of those who expressed their confidence in me as chair of this committee. I hope that we will be able to work together in spite of our political differences.
The first duty of the committee is to appoint vice-chairs. I have a motion for Mr. Laurin.
Mr. Laurin: I am pleased to move that the honourable member Francine Lalonde be elected vice-chair.
The Chairman: We have the nomination of Ms Lalonde as vice-chair. Are there any other motions?
[English]
Mrs. Jennings: On a point of order, I had a motion on the floor and it was to nominate. I would like my nomination to be recognized before the one that has just been heard. My motion is to nominate Jan Brown as the opposition vice-chair for this committee. I would like a recorded vote, please.
.1540
The Chairman: We will go with the first motion, which is for Madame Lalonde.
Mrs. Jennings: No.
Ms Cohen: Yes.
The Chairman: That's the first one I've taken. We will follow with your motion, which I've heard, after the first one I -
Mrs. Jennings: Mr. Chair, I have to question your procedure. I did follow the orders. I did notify the clerk before you were here. There was a quorum in here, and I did give notice of the motion. So perhaps you could explain. If there's some irregularity here, I'd like to be aware of it.
The Chairman: I'm sorry. I've just assumed the task of being chair of this committee. The first hand I saw when I called for nominations for vice-chair was Mr. Laurin's, and the second hand I saw was yours. So I'm taking those nominations in order, beginning with the nomination by Mr. Laurin. That is the first nomination we will consider for the position of vice-chair for the opposition of this committee. I'm calling for a vote, first of all, on the nomination by Mr. Laurin, which is the nomination of Madame Lalonde as vice-chair of this committee.
Mr. Epp (Elk Island): On a point of order, please, I think we need to be very, very clear here. The notice of motion was given, and I believe the chairman at the time indicated very clearly that he was going to do this other thing first to get the meeting in order, and after that.... This was ignored. I think that is wrong. I'd like some clarification, maybe from the counsel at the table.
The Chairman: What took place was to elect the chair of this committee. The role of the clerk in initiating this meeting was simply to elect the chair. Once the chair has been elected, the chair takes over the meeting and carries on the remaining nominations and the remaining work of the committee. That's the way the committee process functions, and that's what the clerk is authorized to do. We do not meet as a committee until the chair is picked, and then the clerk assumes his role as clerk. That's the procedure we are working with.
Mr. Epp: But is it not true that if one gives notice, that is dealt with first, by the rules of precedence?
Furthermore, I don't believe the Standing Orders require that the chairman be elected before the vice-chairman. You've gone out of sequence here. I think it's important for us here to recognize that we did what we were supposed to have done in order to be recognized, and now we're not being recognized. That's at least unfortunate, and I think it's wrong.
The Chairman: This committee, and the clerk, are operating in conformity with the Standing Orders, specifically Standing Orders 106.(1) and 106.(2), which state that the first item of business is to elect a chairperson for the committee. It was on that basis of those Standing Orders that the clerk of the committee called for nominations for chairperson of the committee, who then takes over the chair of the meeting and completes the nomination process for vice-chairs of the committee. That's the way in which we've been doing things in the past, and that's the procedure I'm following.
Mrs. Brown, I presume this is on the same point of order.
Mrs. Brown: Yes, it is; and it's on the voting process here.
I'd like to make two points. First of all, yesterday the fisheries and finance committee meetings both held a free and open voting process for the election of their members.
As well, I would like to quote from Mr. Boudria in 1991. He said:
- Someone will have to brief me here. I have never yet heard of an electoral process where the
candidates were voted on one at a time. I have run for office a number of times in my life, but this
is novel. Perhaps the clerk could explain to us the precedents for voting on candidates for any
office one at a time, as opposed to an electoral ballot voting on one or the other.
The Chairman: Ms Cohen, on the same point of order, I presume.
Ms Cohen: Yes. I have two things. First, while we're citing precedents, the justice committee had the same performance yesterday - almost the same words - by members of the Reform Party. The chair of the justice committee, by way of precedent, if that's what we're talking about, held that the elections would be held one at a time, in accordance with the rules of the House.
.1545
Second, I thought I heard you make a ruling a minute ago that the election of the opposition vice-chair would go ahead. It seems to me if the Reform Party wants to challenge that ruling, they have their remedy. They should figure out what it is and use it, not continue to argue with the chair.
The Chairman: We are now ready to consider the first motion, which is the nomination of Francine Lalonde as opposition vice-chair of the human resources development committee.
Mr. Epp: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, I know this is risky, because it looks as if we are being obstructionist. I'm already feeling that; and it is not the case. We simply want to do things right.
In elections there are nominations. After all the nominations have been completed, there is usually a ballot. I think for you simply to say we're going to nominate Madame Lalonde and elect her, precluding our right to have a nomination, is undemocratic.
Mr. Nault (Kenora - Rainy River): There are two different rules of order, Roberts' rules of order and Beauchesne's rules of order. It depends which one you want to talk about. You can't suggest there's one way of dealing with elections, because that's not true. There are different rules in different organizations. Ours happen to be Beauchesne's, which say we'll deal with them one at a time. We've been doing that for a hundred years.
Mrs. Jennings: It doesn't say that.
Mr. Nault: Sure it does. We've been doing it for a hundred years. Let's get on with it.
Mr. Epp: I would be quite content to accept that if I can be told what section in Beauchesne's deals with this.
The Chairman: Could I ask you to retain your point for just one second?
Mr. Nault: Next time, when you guys get 178 or 190 seats, you can decide who the vice-chair will be. Right now we'll decide.
Mrs. Brown: That's insulting.
Mr. Nault: No, it's not; it's democracy. You know what democracy is: the majority rules.
Mrs. Brown: You're obstructing democracy now, sir.
Mr. Nault: The majority rules, my friends. Have you ever heard of a majority? You talk about it all the time.
This is all nonsense, a waste of our time. Do you know how much money it costs to have all these people hanging around here?
The Chairman: Here's the way we will proceed. We have one opposition vice-chair. The first motion I have entertained has been the motion to nominate Francine Lalonde as vice-chair. We will have a vote on that. If Francine Lalonde receives a majority of the voting members of the committee around this table, she will be declared vice-chair. If she fails to receive a majority of the members of the committee, then we will proceed with the second opposition motion, which is for Jan Brown to be vice-chair.
That is the mechanism under which we will carry out the election. It will allow both candidates for vice-chair to be considered as vice-chair for the committee, in that sequence.
The way we will proceed is we will begin by inviting the committee to vote on whether they, in the majority, would want the vice-chair to be Francine Lalonde. So in the first instance you will vote for or against Francine Lalonde as the opposition vice-chair.
Mrs. Jennings: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, I did ask for a recorded vote.
The Chairman: Yes.
Mrs. Jennings: Are we having a recorded vote?
The Chairman: Yes, we will have a recorded vote, yea and nay.
Mrs. Jennings: I protest the manner in which you are proceeding and I will be following that up. I did follow all the rules as I understood them and I was totally ignored. I don't think that should have happened and I will be following through.
The Chairman: Thank you. I too am following the rules as I understand them.
Mr. Epp: May I renew my request now, or later on today? I would appreciate receiving a citation for which rules of Beauchesne we are following. What are the chapter and verse?
.1550
The Chairman: We're following the Standing Orders.
An hon. member: Where?
The Chairman: The relevant Standing Orders forwarded to you by the clerk.
Mr. Epp: But which numbers? I just want to know the numbers. If you know them, then you clearly know which numbers -
The Chairman: To start with, 106.(1) and 106.(2) state that the chair is to be elected as the first item of business. Then the chair proceeds to the election of the vice-chair. We have an opposition vice-chair and we have a government vice-chair.
Mr. Epp: It doesn't say in there that -
An hon. member: Call the question.
Mr. Epp: - having received one nomination -
An hon. member: Call the question.
Mr. Epp: - you then vote.
The Chairman: I have your request. The Standing Orders we are operating under will be communicated to you by the clerk. If you want to bring this point up again at a subsequent time, then you'll have an opportunity to do that; but I'm responding to the call for the question, which is on the first motion, and that is the nomination of Francine Lalonde as opposition vice-chair. She requires a majority of the voting members of the committee in order to be elected as vice-chair.
So the vote will be yea or nay on that motion, and I will begin. We've been asked for a recorded division, by asking the clerk to call the members, yea or nay, as to whether Madame Lalonde should be opposition vice-chair of the committee. If she receives a majority of yeas, then she will become the opposition vice-chair of the committee. If she fails to receive a majority of the votes of the committee, then we will proceed to the next motion for the opposition vice-chair, which is that of Jan Brown.
So that is the procedure by which we will carry out this election.
Motion agreed to: yeas 11; nays 3
The Clerk: Madame Lalonde has been elected vice-chair.
Ms Cohen: I would like to nominate Maria Minna as the government vice-chair.
The Chairman: Before I receive that nomination, I just want to say that since, as I explained earlier, the vote was positive, in favour of Madame Lalonde, that is the election of the vice-chair for the opposition for this committee. So the subsequent motion is already decided and there's no need for that subsequent election to be called.
So we now can proceed to the vice-chair for the government members in accordance with the provision in Standing Orders 106.(2) and 116.
Ms Cohen: I nominate Ms Minna.
The Chairman: Ms Minna has been nominated by Ms Cohen for the position of government vice-chair.
Are there further nominations?
Seeing no further nominations, I'm now ready to call the vote.
Mr. Epp: Mr. Chairman, you couldn't have any more nominations. You received one, and now we have to vote on that.
Why did you call for more nominations? That's a strange one to me, because you just refused to do it here.
The Chairman: Oh yes. Okay. Well, I listened to your nomination -
Mr. Epp: I persuaded you, but one move too late.
The Chairman: We shall vote yea or nay on the first nomination, which is Maria Minna's name.
Does the opposition want a recorded vote?
Mrs. Brown: Yes.
.1555
The Chairman: We'll now proceed with a recorded vote on the nomination of Maria Minna as the government vice-chair of this committee.
Motion agreed to: yeas 10; nays 3
The Chairman: Ms Minna has the required number to be elected as vice-chair of this committee. So the vice-chair for the government side is Maria Minna and the vice-chair for the opposition is Madame Francine Lalonde.
Mrs. Jennings: I have a point of order. I'd like to move that the committee report back to the House on the conduct of the chair for this election process.
Ms Cohen: Why?
Mrs. Jennings: I'm quoting from section 824 of Beauchesne's.
The Chairman: That the committee report back to the House?
Mrs. Jennings: On the election process as it was done, right here, before us.
Mr. Bevilacqua (York North): I guess you could say that we followed the orders and that's what you want to report to the House?
Mrs. Jennings: You may say that, but -
Mr. Bevilacqua: The majority would say that.
Mrs. Jennings: - I would like it reported to the House, and I'm quoting section 824 of Beauchesne's.
The Chairman: Would you like a recorded vote on whether the committee should report to the House on the conduct of the chair?
Mrs. Jennings: I am moving that the committee report to the House on the proceedings. We're talking about the conduct.
The Chairman: So you want a vote on that motion?
Mrs. Jennings: Yes, on the improper conduct.
The Chairman: There's a motion before the committee on the improper conduct of the chair and that the House receive a report on the conduct of the chair. Is that the nature of your motion?
Mrs. Jennings: The improper conduct of the chair in the election process.
The Chairman: You've all heard the terms of the motion.
Mr. Nault.
Mr. Nault: Mr. Chairman, before we get into that particular discussion, I'm not opposed to the opposition playing around with motions all day long. It's a good old tool that we used to use in opposition; everybody knows how to use it. It's nothing that the Reform have discovered, I can tell you that from experience.
One of the things that I am concerned about...obviously this is an organizational meeting, which means we have certain rules we have to follow, and that is of course that we have to elect the chair and the vice-chairs. My understanding is that we then get into the procedural side of how the committee will operate. For example, one of the procedures that we haven't talked about yet is the process of whether there's going to be a notice of motion put on, a notice for orders of business, what the committee will look at when it sits. In fact, this particular motion could be ruled out of order because we weren't told in advance that we would be discussing this kind of issue.
If we are going to have motions flying back and forth on a regular basis, as you know, it becomes unruly and we don't get to the real work we're supposed to be here to do.
I'd like a ruling on the process. My understanding is that we're here for an organizational meeting, which means we are to elect a chair and two vice-chairs. After that the orders of business would be put on the docket for future meetings, based on conversations, discussions of a steering committee of some sort.
Maybe you could clarify to me how you have dealt with this committee in the past. Having chaired a committee of my own in the last couple of years...we all do things a little differently. I'd like to get some clarification. I certainly would not want to waste my time and that of the members, who are of course very highly paid to be here, playing around with very useless motions of the opposition. I'd like to see some concrete motions of the opposition that deal with substance of policy rather than whether they're upset that they didn't get to be vice-chair on a committee.
.1600
Could you give me the rundown on how we're going to proceed here in the future as far as this committee is concerned?
Mrs. Jennings: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, there are no requirements that I'm aware of at this time established at this point for this committee, so I think that rather negates what has just been said. I think we are going forward from this day, and for me to question the electoral process I believe is my democratic right as we try to follow all the rules.
The Chairman: Sure. You have a motion on the floor and we will deal with it.
Mrs. Jennings: Thank you.
The Chairman: With respect to Mr. Nault's intervention...and it's a convenient opportunity for me to explain how I intend to proceed with this committee when we get into the substance of the committee work. Normally we have a steering committee composed of the vice-chairs and the parliamentary secretaries, and as a matter of course I have included a representative of the Reform Party, even though the vice-chair has gone to the official opposition as a full member of the steering committee. It is at those steering committee meetings where we work out the elements of the work that we will do as a committee.
Of course, all work the committee does is approved by the committee as a whole to the extent that it has not delegated so expressly to the steering committee. So that's how we will operate.
Most of the time we get along pretty well on this committee and I have every reason to hope that will continue. Because of the nature of the business we deal with, it is of importance to all Canadians.
I think we can work together. Basically that is the way we have done so in the past. We have got along pretty well despite some very difficult and sometimes contentious issues that have come before the committee, and I hope we can continue to do that.
So that's the way we will operate. I'm sure the Reform Party will have an opportunity to be a full participant in helping to determine the work of the committee, as has been the case in the past.
Mrs. Jennings, you have a motion on the floor to question my ruling or my conduct at this meeting. We will have a vote on that. All those who are in favour of the motion -
Mrs. Jennings: The motion was actually that the committee report to the House.
The Chairman: That the committee report to the House on the conduct of the chair at this meeting.
Mrs. Jennings: A recorded vote, please.
Motion negatived: nays, 10; yeas, 3
Mrs. Brown: Mr. Chairman, before you close the meeting, I would just like to make the comment that I find it incredulous that the Liberals are supporting the Bloc in the manner in which they are. It's almost like you've all climbed into bed together.
I trust that your constituents are shocked, because it's shocking to me.
The Chairman: Ms Brown, I think the -
Mrs. Brown: The Prime Minister is trying to keep this country together, and I see that what you are doing is trying to placate so that you don't create waves out there. It is shocking. It really is.
The Chairman: Ms Brown, I think that's unnecessary.
Mrs. Brown: I want it for the record, in any event.
The Chairman: The purpose of the meeting is merely to elect the chair and the vice-chair. We were conducting the meeting in the way in which this has been done in the past. There are traditions in this House that apportion positions of chairs and vice-chairs according to the government and opposition parties and traditions as to official and non-official opposition. We are following those traditions.
So I think it's a bit excessive to claim that somehow democracy is being flouted at this meeting. We are conducting a few routine processes here so that the committee can begin its work.
.1605
I have no further business for this meeting, so I declare the meeting adjourned.