Issue 01

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

THURSDAY, SEPTEMBER 28, 1995
(Meeting No. 1)

[Text]

The Sub-Committee on the Business of Supply of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs met at 9:20 o'clock a.m. this day, in Room 705, La Promenade, the Chair, Marlene Catterall, presiding.

Members of the Sub-Committee present: Guy H. Arseneault, Marlene Catterall, Gurbax Singh Malhi and John Williams.

In attendance: From the Research Branch of the Library of Parliament: Brian O'Neal, Research Officer.

Witness: From the House of Commons: Robert Marleau, Clerk of the House.

In accordance with the Order of Reference from the House of Commons to the Standing Committee dated Wednesday, June 7, 1995, and with the Standing Committee's decisions of Thursday, June 22, and Tuesday, September 19, 1995, the Sub-Committee commenced consideration of a comprehensive review of the Business of Supply.

It was agreed,--That the Sub-Committee meet on Thursdays from 9:15 a.m. to 11:00 a.m., and to 12:15 p.m. when necessary to hear additional witnesses.

The witness made a statement and answered questions.

At 9:55 o'clock a.m., by unanimous consent, the Sub-Committee proceeded to future business.

It was agreed,--That the Chair be authorized to hold meetings to receive and authorize the printing of evidence when a quorum is not present, provided that at least three (3) members are present, including a member of the Opposition.

On motion of John Williams, it was agreed,--That, further to the previous motion, in the event that the Opposition member must leave, the meeting may continue for the purpose of receiving evidence.

On motion of Guy Arseneault, it was agreed,--That, at the discretion of the Chair, reasonable travelling expenses, according to the regulations established by the Board of Internal Economy, be paid to witnesses invited to appear before the Sub-Committee, and, for the payment of such expenses, a limit of two (2) representatives per organization be established.

Gurbax Malhi moved,--That the Sub-Committee retain the services of one or more Research Officers from the Library of Parliament to assist the Sub-Committee in its work at the discretion of the Chair.

After debate, the question being put on the motion, it was agreed to.

On motion of Guy Arseneault, it was agreed,--That the Research Officer be asked to prepare a draft workplan based on the discussions of the Sub-Committee members.

Gurbax Malhi moved,--That during the questioning of witnesses there be allocated one ten-minute period per party for the first round of questions and five minutes per member for subsequent rounds, at the discretion of the Chair.

After debate, the question being put on the motion, it was agreed to.

At 10:05 o'clock a.m., questioning of the witness resumed.

At 10:30 o'clock a.m., the Sub-Committee adjourned to the call of the Chair.

THURSDAY, OCTOBER 5, 1995
(Meeting No. 2)

The Sub-Committee on the Business of Supply of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs met at 9:30 o'clock a.m. this day, in Room 705, La Promenade, the Chair, Marlene Catterall, presiding.

Members of the Sub-Committee present: Marlene Catterall, Gurbax Singh Malhi, John Solomon and John Williams.

Acting Members present: Janko Peric for Guy Arseneault, Bernard Deshaies for Gaston Leroux and Ian McClelland for John Williams.

In attendance: From the Research Branch of the Library of Parliament: Brian O'Neal, Research Officer.

Witnesses: From the Treasury Board Senior Officials, Expenditure Management Sector, Program Branch: David W. Miller, Assistant Secretary, Thomas C. Hopwood, Director, Reform of the Estimates. From the Parliamentary Working Group on Expenditure Management Information: Ron Duhamel, M.P.

In accordance with the Order of Reference from the House of Commons to the Standing Committee dated Wednesday, June 7, 1995, and with the Standing Committee's decisions of Thursday, June 22 and Tuesday, September 19, 1995, the Sub-Committee resumed consideration of a comprehensive review of the Business of Supply. (See Minutes of Proceeding dated Thursday, September 28, 1995, Issue No. 1).

The witnesses made statements and answered questions.

At 11:25 o'clock a.m., the Sub-Committee adjourned to the call of the Chair.

THURSDAY, OCTOBER 19, 1995
(Meeting No. 3)

The Sub-Committee on the Business of Supply of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs met at 9:32 o'clock a.m. this day, in Room 306, West Block, the Chair, Marlene Catterall, presiding.

Members of the Sub-Committee present: Guy H. Arseneault, Marlene Catterall, Gurbax Singh Malhi and John Williams.

In attendance: From the Research Branch of the Library of Parliament: Brian O'Neal, Research Officer.

Witnesses: From the Office of the Auditor General: Denis Desautels, Auditor General; Maria Barrados, Assistant Auditor General, Audit Operations; Jeff Greenberg, Principal, Audit Operations. From the Parliamentary Centre: Peter C. Dobell, Director. Individual Presentation: The Honourable John B. Stewart, Senator and Author.

In accordance with the Order of Reference from the House of Commons to the Standing Committee dated Wednesday, June 7, 1995, and with the Standing Committee's decisions of Thursday, June 22 and Tuesday, September 19, 1995, the Sub-Committee resumed consideration of a comprehensive review of the Business of Supply (See Minutes of Proceedings dated Thursday, September 28, 1995, Issue No. 1).

The Auditor General and the Assistant Auditor General made statements and, with Jeff Greenberg, answered questions.

At 10:20 o'clock a.m., the sitting was suspended.

At 10:29 o'clock a.m., the sitting resumed.

Peter Dobell made a statement and answered questions.

At 11:19 o'clock a.m., the sitting was suspended.

At 11:25 o'clock a.m., the sitting resumed.

Senator Stewart made a statement and answered questions.

At 12:05 o'clock p.m., the Sub-Committee adjourned to the call of the Chair.

MONDAY, OCTOBER 23, 1995
(Meeting No. 4)

The Sub-Committee on the Business of Supply of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs met at 11:07 o'clock a.m. this day, in Room 208, West Block, the Chair, Marlene Catterall, presiding.

Members of the Sub-Committee present: Guy H. Arseneault, Marlene Catterall, Gurbax Singh Malhi and John Williams.

In attendance: From the Research Branch of the Library of Parliament: Brian O'Neal, Research Officer.

In accordance with the Order of Reference from the House of Commons to the Standing Committee dated Wednesday, June 7, 1995, and with the Standing Committee's decisions of Thursday, June 22, 1995 and Tuesday, September 19, 1995, the Sub-Committee resumed consideration of a comprehensive review of the Business of Supply. (See Minutes of Proceedings dated Thursday, September 28, 1995, Issue No. 1)

The Sub-Committee proceeded to consideration of future business.

It was agreed--That the Sub-Committee meet on Monday, November 6, 1995 and on Thursday, November 9, 1995 from 9:30 a.m. to 1:00 p.m., for the purpose of holding round table discussions on the Business of Supply, and that a simple working lunch be provided.

It was agreed,--That the Sub-Committee request that the deadline for the consideration of the Business of Supply be extended from November 23, 1995 to March 8, 1996, and that the Chair be authorized to present this request to the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs as the First Report of the Sub-Committee.

It was agreed,--That the following individuals and groups be invited to participate in the round table discussions: Dr. C.E.S. Franks, Dr. J.R. Mallory, Dr. Donald J. Savoie, Dr. Sharon Sutherland, Dr. Arthur Kroeger, Judith Maxwell, Alan Freeman, The Fraser Institute, the C.D. Howe Institute and the Canadian Comprenensive Auditing Association, and that the Honourable Ron Huntingdon and Claude-André Lachance be invited to appear after the November recess.

At 12:08 o'clock p.m., the Sub-Committee adjourned to the call of the Chair.

MONDAY, NOVEMBER 6, 1995
(Meeting No. 5)

Members of the Sub-Committee present: Guy H. Arseneault, Marlene Catterall and John Williams.

Acting Member present: Paul DeVillers for Gurbax Singh Malhi.

In attendance: From the Research Branch of the Library of Parliament: Brian O'Neal, Research Officer.

In accordance with the Order of Reference from the House of Commons to the Standing Committee dated Wednesday, June 7, 1995, and with the Standing Committee's decisions of Thursday, June 22, 1995, Tuesday, September 19 and Tuesday, October 24, 1995, the Sub-Committee resumed consideration of a comprehensive review of the Business of Supply (See Minutes of Proceedings dated Thursday, September 28, 1995, Issue No. 1).

The Sub-Committee proceeded to consideration of future business.

It was agreed,--That, in the event that no further witnesses can be confirmed for the roundtable meeting scheduled for Thursday, November 9, 1995, the meeting be postponed to a later date.

At 12:25 o'clock p.m., the Sub-Committee adjourned to the call of the Chair.

THURSDAY, NOVEMBER 23, 1995
(Meeting No. 6)

The Sub-Committee on the Business of Supply of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs met at 9:38 o'clock a.m. this day, in Room 208, West Block, the Chair, Marlene Catterall, presiding.

Members of the Sub-Committee present: Guy H. Arseneault, Marlene Catterall, Gurbax Singh Malhi and John Williams.

In attendance: From the Research Branch of the Library of Parliament: Brian O'Neal, Research Officer.

Witnesses: Co-Authors of the Huntington-Lachance Report: The Honourable A.R. Huntington and Claude-André Lachance. From the House of Commons: Bill Blaikie, M.P.

In accordance with the Order of Reference from the House of Commons to the Standing Committee dated Wednesday, June 7, 1995, and with the Standing Committee's decisions of Thursday, June 22, 1995, Tuesday, September 19 and Tuesday, October 24, 1995, the Sub-Committee resumed consideration of a comprehensive review of the Business of Supply (See Minutes of Proceedings dated Thursday, September 28, 1995, Issue No. 1).

The witnesses made statements and answered questions.

At 11:14 o'clock a.m., the Sub-Committee proceeded to future business.

It was agreed,--That Treasury Board officials be invited to appear on Monday, November 27, 1995 to explain the proposed changes to the Operating Budget regime of the Main Estimates.

At 11:25 o'clock a.m., the Sub-Committee adjourned to the call of the Chair.

MONDAY, NOVEMBER 27, 1995
(Meeting No. 7)

The Sub-Committee on the Business of Supply of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs met at 11:18 o'clock a.m. this day, in Room 112-N, Centre Block, the Chair, Marlene Catterall, presiding.

Members of the Sub-Committee present: Guy H. Arseneault, Marlene Catterall and John Williams.

In attendance: From the Research Branch of the Library of Parliament: Brian O'Neal, Research Officer.

Witnesses: From the Treasury Board, Expenditure Management Sector, Program Branch: David W. Miller, Assistant Secretary; Thomas C. Hopwood, Director, Reform of the Estimates. From the Office of the Auditor General: Ron Thompson, Assistant Auditor General, Audit Operations.

In accordance with the Order of Reference from the House of Commons dated Wednesday, June 7, 1995, and with the Committee's decisions of Thursday, June 22, 1995, Tuesday, September 19 and Tuesday, October 24, 1995, the Sub-Committee resumed consideration of a comprehensive review of the Business of Supply (See Minutes of Proceedings dated Thursday, September 28, 1995, Issue No. 1).

The witnesses made statements and answered questions.

At 12:35 o'clock p.m., the Sub-Committee adjourned to the call of the Chair.

Christine Fisher

Clerk of the Sub-Committee

THURSDAY, NOVEMBER 30, 1995
(Meeting No. 8)

The Sub-Committee on the Business of Supply of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs met at 9:40 o'clock a.m. this day, in Room 208, West Block, the Chair, Marlene Catterall, presiding.

Members of the Sub-Committee present: Marlene Catterall, Gurbax Singh Malhi and John Williams.

Acting Member present: Roseanne Skoke for Guy H. Arseneault.

In attendance: From the Research Branch of the Library of Parliament: Brian O'Neal, Research Officer.

Witnesses: From Queen's University: Dr. C.E.S. Franks, Professor of Political Studies. From the University of Toronto: Dr. Evert Lindquist, Associate Professor of Political Science. Individual presentations: Dr. J.R. Mallory, Author of The Structure of Canadian Government.

The witnesses made opening statements and answered questions.

At 11:37 o'clock a.m., the Sub-Committee proceeded to consider future business.

It was agreed,--That the Sub-Committee report to the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs its recommendations on the proposed changes to the vote structure in the preparation of Estimates, and that the researcher propose the wording of the report.

Ordered,--That the Chair report these recommendations to the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs.

At 11:41 o'clock a.m., the Sub-Committee adjourned to the call of the Chair.

THURSDAY, DECEMBER 7, 1995
(Meeting No. 9)

The Sub-Committee on the Business of Supply of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs met at 9:37 o'clock a.m. this day, in Room 208, West Block, the Chair, Marlene Catterall, presiding.

Members of the Sub-Committee present: Guy H. Arseneault, Marlene Catterall, Gurbax Singh Malhi and John Williams.

In attendance: From the Research Branch of the Library of Parliament: Brian O'Neal, Research Officer.

Witnesses: From the Office of the Auditor General: Ron Thompson, Assistant Auditor General. From the Treasury Board, Expenditure Management Sector, Program Branch: David W. Miller, Assistant Secretary; Thomas C. Hopwood, Director, Reform of the Estimates. From the Parliamentary Working Group on Expenditure Management: Ron Duhamel, M.P.

In accordance with the Order of Reference from the House of Commons dated Wednesday, June 7, 1995, and with the Committee's decisions of Thursday, June 22, 1995, Tuesday, September 19 and Tuesday, October 24, 1995, the Sub-Committee resumed consideration of a comprehensive review of the business of supply. (See Minutes of Proceedings dated Thursday, September 28, 1995, Issue No. 1,)

Ron Duhamel, M.P., made an opening statement.

Ron Thompson and Thomas Hopwood made opening statements and, with David Miller, answered questions.

At 11:15 o'clock p.m., the Sub-Committee adjourned to the call of the Chair.

THURSDAY, DECEMBER 7, 1995
(Meeting No. 10)

The Sub-Committee on the Business of Supply of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs met at 3:17 o'clock p.m. this day, in Room 112-N, Centre Block, the Chair, Marlene Catterall, presiding.

Members of the Sub-Committee present: Guy H. Arseneault, Marlene Catterall, and John Williams.

Acting Member present: Reg Alcock for Gurbax Malhi.

Other Member present: Ron Duhamel.

In attendance: From the Research Branch of the Library of Parliament: Brian O'Neal, Research Officer.

In accordance with the Order of Reference from the House of Commons dated Wednesday, June 7, 1995, and with the Committee's decisions of Thursday, June 22, 1995, Tuesday, September 19 and Tuesday, October 24, 1995, the Sub-Committee resumed its consideration of a comprehensive review of the business of supply. (See Minutes of Proceedings dated Thursday, September 28, 1995, Issue No. 1.)

It was agreed,--That the researcher draft a report on the evaluation process planned for the revised Part III Estimates document.

Ordered,--That the Chair present this as the Second Report of the Sub-Committee to the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs.

At 4:47 o'clock p.m., the Sub-Committee adjourned to the call of the Chair.

THURSDAY, DECEMBER 14, 1995
(Meeting No. 11)

The Sub-Committee on the Business of Supply of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs met at 9:41 o'clock a.m. this day, in Room 208, West Block, the Chair, Marlene Catterall, presiding.

Members of the Sub-Committee present: Guy H. Arseneault, Marlene Catterall and John Williams.

In attendance: From the Research Branch of the Library of Parliament: Brian O'Neal, Research Officer.

In accordance with the Order of Reference from the House of Commons dated Wednesday, June 7, 1995, and with the Committee's decisions of Thursday, June 22, 1995, Tuesday, September 19 and Tuesday, October 24, 1995, the Sub-Committee resumed consideration of a comprehensive review of the business of supply. (See Minutes of Proceedings dated Thursday, September 28, 1995, Issue No. 1.)

The Sub-Committee proceeded to consider future business.

It was agreed,--That a draft questionnaire on the Estimates process and committee consideration be prepared for distribution in January 1996 to all Members of Parliament.

It was agreed,--That the Chairs of all standing committees be invited to a round-table discussion to be held on February 5, 1996 to consider the Estimates process.

It was agreed,--That the High Commissioner for New Zealand be invited to appear before the Sub-Committee in his capacity as a former member of the New Zealand government and Minister of Finance to discuss the changes to the New Zealand Estimates process and consequent procedural changes made by the New Zealand legislature.

It was agreed,--That Jean-Pierre Boisclair of the Canadian Comprehensive Auditing Foundation be invited to appear before the Sub-Committee.

It was agreed,--That the Sub-Committee continue to meet on Thursday mornings to accomplish the bulk of its work, and that members consider another possible week day for meeting.

At 10:55 o'clock a.m., the Sub-Committee adjourned to the call of the Chair.

Ellen Savage

Clerk of the Sub-Committee