[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]
Tuesday, October 3, 1995
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[Translation]
The Chair: Good morning. We have only one witness, and it is Mr. Landry. I think that you can begin right away, Mr. Landry.
Mr. Jean Landry (member for Lobtinière): How much time do I have, Mr. Chairman?
The Chair: We are giving every witness 15 minutes, seven minutes to make the presentation and seven or eight minutes for questions.
Mr. Landry: Good.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for giving me this opportunity to explain the problem associated with my federal riding of Lotbinière.
My testimony will show you that the current riding of Lotbinière complies with the analysis criteria more so than the riding of Richmond - Arthabaska. According to the proposed electoral boundary map, the capital of Bois-Francs, Victoriaville, will be excluded from the riding of Lotbinière, but its economic partners will remain in the riding. Consequently, Princeville, Daveluyville and Saint-Valère, to name but three municipalities, will no longer be in the same riding as Victoriaville. This city is the third most industrialized city, on a per capita basis, in Quebec. With 150 industries, it has the largest industrial park and is home to the greatest number of firms in the Bois-Francs region.
In addition, the 1991 social and economic report published by the Corporation de développement économique des Bois-Francs describes Victoriaville and Arthabaska, now combined with Victoriaville, as well as Sainte-Victoire, Warwick, Plessisville and Princeville as sister towns which today form the hub of this region.
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Kingsey Falls, which is headquarters to the Cascades Company, and many other towns with thriving pulp and paper, clothing, agricultural and dairy industries are also part of this group.
In addition, the Bois-Francs region, which includes Victoriaville, have several things in common with Lotbinière. They both have an industrial base dependent upon the furniture and clothing sectors. Agriculture, both at the production and processing level, is also an important part of this common industrial base. For instance, Lactancia, located in Victoriaville, processes a large production of the milk and dairy products in the Lotbionière region.
As the member of the current riding, these similarities allow me to play a more effective role in defending these common realities. On the whole, the riding of Lotbinière has developed its current identity and homegeneity over the past 25 or so years. This community has become a very strong entity and should, therefore, continue to exist in its current form.
The municipalities referred to earlier should create another link and develop a new identity, one that is not created over night but is instead built over the years.
We should add that the proposed boundary map would promote the unification of RCMs in the same ridings. In Lotbinière, we already have the RCM of Lotbinière, with the exception of five municipalities, the RCM of Bécancour and almost the entire RCM of Arthabaska, with the exception of seven municipalities. According to the new map, Victoriaville, the main town in the RCM of Arthabaska and six other towns from the municipality of Arthabaska, will be put into Richmond - Arthabaska, which is dominated by the RCM of Asbestos. In addition, a municipality from the Les-Chutes-de-la-Chaudière - Saint-Lambert-de Lauzon RCM will be added to Lotbinière.
As far as the electoral quota is concerned, Lotbinière, with its current population of approximately 94,000, complies with the standards.
If I may, Mr. Chairman, I would like to turn to a few newspaper articles from the counties or surrounding RCMs advocating the status quo for Lotbinière. I will also table that the testimony of Mr. Jean-Guy Dubois, a former Liberal member for the Lotbinière riding who is currently vice-president of the Liberal Lotbinière Riding Association. These are a few documents that you may wish to consult.
The first document talks about the redistribution of the electoral boundaries of Richmond - Wolfe, a subject about which Mr. Leroux has expressed serious reservations.
The Chair: Which Mr. Leroux?
Mr. Landry: Mr. Gaston Leroux. The proposal made by the electoral boundary review commission for Quebec to redivide the Richmond - Wolfe territory does not give any consideration whatsoever to either the natural links that unite the various sectors of the riding or to the regional reality.
In reacting to the new electoral map proposed by the Quebec electoral boundaries commission, the mayors for the towns of Nicolet and Bécancour agree on one thing: two municipalities must not be separated and put into different riding. We know that the commission proposed that Nicolet be put into the Richelieu riding and that Bécancour become part of the Lotbinière riding.
It is very clear that the work done by the members of the commission responsible for redistributing the boundaries was based essentially on population without any consideration for their community of interests. The region of Bécancour - Nicolet cannot be split, because these two towns share too many things.
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According to an article published in the newspaper Le Nouvelliste on Thursday, April 21, 1994, the South Shore is strongly opposed to the proposal made by the commission.
The second witness who appeared before the Trois-Rivières commission. Mr. Jean-Guy Dubois, gave his opinion as the Vice-President of the Lotbinière riding Liberal Association. He agreed with the policy adopted by the Liberal Party of Canada, which is to maintain the status quo, making minor adjustments to regional ridings, when the need arises. He was vehemently opposed to the commission's proposal to put Victoriaville into the Richmond - Wolfe riding with towns such as Asbestos.
According to another document, Bécancour wants to remain in the same riding as Nicolet, even if it means changing names. The town of Bécancour will support a resolution of the Bécancour RCM in order to remain within the same federal electoral riding as the town of Nicolet.
In a newspaper article taken from Point de vue, published on Monday, February 22, 1994, the headlines ran: Respect for Regional Territories is a Priority. Mr. Denis Champagne, président of the Bois-Francs CSN, said:
- The face of our region has been changed quite significantly with the recently proposed
changes to county boundaries.
- The author asks certain questions:
- what were the objectives sought by such a reform?
- What reference points were used in redefining the counties?
- Were all of our political structures taken into consideration in redrawing county lines?
In my opinion, we must, without fail, respect the community of interests. As he said, we are not at all in agreement and I will tell you why. There is no economic and geographic affinity between the people living in Bromptonville, Windsor, Brompton and Saint-François-de-Greenlay and the people living in the regions of Bois-Francs.
Let's take a look at the map showing Windsor, Saint-Claude, Saint-Georges-de-Windsor and even Asbestos. Asbestos is close to us, but it has absolutely no economic affinity with Victoriaville. Asbestos does, however, have a great deal of affinity with Sherbrooke.
We could, just as we did in 1986, make adjustments that would respect the affinities of the people living here. If we were to do that, everybody could remain in his region and be happy.
This is what I wanted to say.
There is one other thing that I want to say to you. This riding is being called Richmond - Arthabasca, when in fact Arthabasca has disappeared right off the map. The town of Arthabasca has not existed for several months. It has been redefined and is called Victoriaville. I should tell you that the Arthabasca provincial court house is in the district of Arthabasca. As we speak today, there's even talk about doing away with this provincial legal district. We even want to change the name of the Hôtel-Dieu d'Arthabasca, which is the only institution that bears the name of Arthabasca.
With the redefinition of electoral boundaries, the riding is to be given a new name, Richmond - Arthabasca, when in fact of Arthabasca has lost its name. I don't really see the logic in this.
As I said earlier, I'm being given Saint-Lambert-de-Lévis, which has no affinity with Victoriaville.
Therefore, for all these reasons, I am asking that we maintain the status quo in the riding of Lotbinière.
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The Chair: Mr. Assad.
Mr. Assad (Gatineau - La Lièvre): I'm somewhat familiar with this area. I'm looking at map number 4, the map for Lotbinière and Richmond-Arthabaska. You want to maintain the status quo. Where is the boundary on the old map? First of all, what was the population in the riding where you were elected in 1993?
Mr. Landry: Approximately 94,000. I am within the standards.
Mr. Assad: Obviously, Bécancour was one of the big centres in the Lotbinière riding.
Mr. Landry: No, it isn't in my riding.
Mr. Assad: But the line above the map, here?
Mr. Landry: Yes, but you have the old map. My riding is beside Bécancour. The boundary is at Saint-Sylvère. Bécancour is not part of my riding.
Mr. Assad: Therefore, in other words -
Mr. Landry: The only big town that I have in my Lotbinière riding is Victoriaville. That is the only one. The others are five sister towns which I referred to earlier, namely, Princeville, Daveluyville, Warwick and Plessisville. Victoriaville is, therefore, the queen of the Bois-Francs.
Mr. Assad: Now that Bécancour is to be included in the new map, what will the increased poulation be?
Mr. Landry: The population does not increase. It will decrease because Victoriaville, which used to be in my riding, is now being put into the Richmond - Arthabaska riding. My riding will drop to 91,000.
Mr. Assad: And what will the population for Richmond-Arthabaska be? Do we have any idea what it will be?
Mr. Landry: Yes.
The Chair: 95,749.
Mr. Assad: Well, why did they make the change?
Mr. Landry: It is very unfortunate.
Mr. Assad: If the people in the old riding had always lived together, what prompted the change?
Mr. Leroux (Richmond - Wolfe): I think that it was a question of demographics. When you look at the new boundaries, you can see that you have a very close friend, Mr. Vallières. His riding of Richmond is distributed very well. The community of interest is also cut off in the southern part, with Valcourt which is in Val-Saint-François, whose economic interests, CRDs and strategic plans all come under this part. But suddenly, they will find that they are in Granby Region, a region with which they have no affinity, and more importantly, they will no longer be connected, in terms of strategic plans, with Val-Saint-François.
This is what happens, Mr. Assad, when you focus solely on populaiton. People have told us, as you yourself did this morning when speaking about your riding, that we must look for a community of interests, RCMs, CRDs, economic development entities, school boards, etc. This is a question of historical belonging. These are the same arguments. In this case, we are trying to comply with demographics standards. This is why we have to draw a line somewhere.
In the case of Disraeli, which is in my riding of Richmond-Wolfe, and which will no longer be so according to the new map, the people may have more affinity with Thetfort Mines. The people living in Disraeli did not like being in Richmond - Wolfe because the natural movement between them and Thetford Mines was cut off. Now Disraeli is in another riding. In the case of Richmond - Arthabaska, we are destroying structural alliances as everyone mentioned this morning. In addition, I'd like to say that names are disappearing with the amalgamation of towns.
Mr. Landry: Mr. Chairman, I want to say something else for Mr. Assad's information. In your presentation, we can see that the RCMs should be as complete as possible, However, the Arthabaska's RCM is the largest one in my riding and it has just been split.
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Mr. Leroux: Municipal councillors and economic developers are completely lost when they look at the Canadian electoral map.
Mr. Landry: They cannot make any sense out of it.
Mr. Leroux: In Quebec, as you are fully aware, everyone refers to administrative zones, to RCMs, because they are development models. A federal riding does not mean anything when you start drawing the line right through municipalities that have been grouped together. That's a problem.
Mr. Assad: Okay, but in this particular case, there were no demographic problems. The populations were high enough; they complied with the standards.
Mr. Landry: Yes.
Mr. Assad: That's it. I don't understand what prompted this change.
Mr. Leroux: Mr. Assad, perhaps they wanted to rectify Megantic - Compton - Stanstead. For instance, in Richmond, there is Rock Forest, Saint-Élie and Deauville, which is an important urban centre. By rectifying one situation, you upset the other. Then you have to draw the line somewhere! You try to correct one riding, but in doing so, you impact a bit negatively on the other. In my opinion, I feel that this results from an attempt to correct the demographics in an adjoining riding.
Mr. Landry: Mr. Assad, I would like to say once again that Lotbinière complies with the standards.
Mr. Assad: Before hand?
The Chair: The riding as it exists now.
Mr. Landry: Yes, from an administrative perspective, the riding is much better off as it now stands than it would be with the new electoral boundaries, from a municipal standpoint and from every standpoint.
Mr. Assad: Have the ridings of Champlain, Portneuf and Richelieu been affected by that or only these two ridings?
Mr. Leroux: You should note that a river runs between the two ridings.
Mr. Landry: There is a river between the two ridings. I'm on the south shore.
Mr. Assad: In reality, only the ridings of Richmond - Arthabaska and Lotbinière have been affected.
Mr. Landry: That's right.
Mr. Leroux: This was done probably because of an attempt to play with the populations in the vicinity.
Mr. Assad: Consequently, would I be right in assuming that most of the municipalities in these two new ridings are opposed to this change?
Mr. Leroux: I can tell you what the municipal councillors think, as I know them very well since I myself was an elected municipal official. These people tell me that they cannot make sense out of all of this. It's almost as if, owing to a lack of interest, they are saying: there has been a boundary change, we can't do anything about it. They will continue to work within the confines of their RCM and CRD and the federal boundary lines don't mean anything to them.
However, it becomes a source of irritation when they have to deal with ministries or centers. Their life gets complicated because they say to themselves: I live in this territory, however for this particular matter, I have to go to Granby. This is not natural for them; that never happens.
For another matter, they're going to say: I used to go to Victoriaville, but now I have to go somewhere else. That really annoys them because they get confused as to who does or manages what. This is what this issue of affinity is all about.
Because you've been a member, you are well aware of the fact that Quebec is divided into 125 counties, and that there are 75 federal ridings. Creating electoral boundaries that match Quebec's development structure by region, by RCM, etc, is really no small matter.
Mr. Assad: Okay, but in the case that we are discussing now, tell me when the riding of Lotbinière was created?
Mr. Landry: In 1986.
Mr. Assad: It was changed only in 1986?
Mr. Landry: Before 1986, this riding was not changed in 1986. Nothing was done.
Mr. Leroux: The boundaries were redefined.
Mr. Landry: Yes, but it only affected a few municipalities. It did not have any impact on big towns such as Victoriaville, which is all going to be in a different riding.
Mr. Assad: Consequently, the feeling of belonging, the poles of attraction and all the rest are homogenous and then they come along with this big change.
Mr. Landry: Yes. I'm asking that this not be broken.
Mr. Leroux: On both the north shore and the south shore.
Mr. Assad: Given that these two territories had adequate populations, I'm asking myself the question. How is it that -
Mr. Leroux: My theory, Mr. Assad, is that an attempt was made to rectify the problem of adjoining ridings.
Mr. Assad: Adjoining ridings?
Mr. Leroux: Yes, that is my only theory.
Mr. Assad: Were there any adjoining ridings that did not have adequate populations?
Mr. Leroux: I would imagine that they would want to rectify the situation in the ridings of both Frontenac, Mégantic - Compton - Stanstead, Drummond and perhaps other adjoining ridings. That is surely what has happened, because Valcourt will be part of Shefford or I don't know where else. Valcourt will be part of another riding. It must be Shefford because it is close to Granby; so it is in that area there. It will be near Val-Saint-François.
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There's a redistribution here that I understand. Yes, it goes into Shefford. Go back to the previous page and you'll see yourself, it goes into Shefford. Valcourt doesn't in any way belong in that area. One of the specific characteristics of Valcourt, in Val-Saint-François is that it is also very tied to development in the Sherbrooke area, particularly through Bombardier.
It's as if someone wanted to rectify other ridings. You have to draw a line. Federally, there are 75 ridings as opposed to 125 provincial ridings.
Mr. Assad: I've been through that in the past, provincially. When territories are changed to that extent, the results are not good.
Mr. Landry: Mr. Chairman, I have something to add, if you will allow me to.
The Chairman: Yes.
Mr. Landry: When you speak of Richmond - Arthabasca, if you only knew how frustrated the people of Arthabasca feel! About 8,000 people who live in Arthabasca have lost their name, and they didn't want to lose it. According to the redistribution of the electoral map, it would be known as Richmond - Arthabasca. The impact would be terrible on the people of Arthabasca who will lose the name of their city.
Mr. Leroux: I think Mr. Landry, that the Chairman has carefully noted the fact that Arthabasca no longer exists. Firstly, it will have to be mentioned in the report. Secondly, I think that we somewhat agree on the idea that there's something not quite natural about this.
The Chairman: I'd like to ask a few questions. In your brief, at the last paragraph, you mention that in the riding of Lotbinière, you already have the RCM of Lotbinière, except for five municipalities. Weren't those municipalities a part of the RCM?
Mr. Landry: Federally, those five municipalities are missing, but provincially, Lotbinière is truly whole.
The Chairman: Are they big municipalities?
Mr. Landry: No, they're small villages of 700, 800 or 900 inhabitants.
Mr. Leroux: But they can't figure out where they belong, given the redistribution.
Mr. Landry: That's it. That's why I wanted to give you an overview of the federal riding of Lotbinière, but there is also a provincial riding of Lotbinière in which all these RCMs are grouped together.
Mr. Leroux: You'll also notice that in the riding of Richmond - Arthabasca, there is also Bromptonville.
Mr. Landry: Yes.
Mr. Leroux: Over the last few years Bromptonville has already approached the Quebec's ministère des Affaires municipales (Department of Municipal Affairs) in an effort to have it included it in the RCM of Sherbrooke. The ministère will soon render its decision. At the same time, steps are also being taken which will soon lead to Bromptonville probably being joined to Sherbrooke, because it's very near. There are a lot of workers moving back and forth between the Kruger factory in Brompton, and Sherbrooke. You know that in Quebec, we try to work with this kind of data.
The Chairman: You are speaking of the RCM of Sherbrooke.
Mr. Leroux: Yes.
The Chairman: I thought that a city wasn't part of a RCM.
Mr. Landry: No, they are! Victoriaville is part of Arthabaska's RCM.
Mr. Leroux: Generally, large cities become city-centres.
Mr. Landry: Daveluyville is in my riding. All my RCMs are being split in two. Part of Arthabasca's RCM will go to Richmond-Arthabaska, and the other part will be in Lotbinière. The RCM will be split in two. And you are taking the biggest city in my entire riding, Victoriaville, and you are making it another riding.
Mr. Leroux: There are approximately 94 RCMs in Quebec, except for Montreal which is split up a bit differently. You have RCMs all over; the city-centres are generally the most densely populated cities.
The Chairman: In the Ottawa valley, there isn't a RCM, there is an urban community.
Mr. Assad: Yes, the same as in Montreal and Quebec City.
Mr. Leroux: Yes. There is the nation's capital.
Mr. Assad: It's not because of Ottawa.
Mr. Leroux: There is a plateau know as the national capital. It is therefore considered within its geographic territory. But according to the model used in Quebec, the cities on the Hull side also belong to RCMs.
Mr. Landry: Mr. Chairman, when this kind of redistribution is carried out in a large city such as Montreal or Quebec, there's no problem when the line is moved one street over, but in small communities of 700, 800 or 900 inhabitants - There are 58 municipalities in Lotbinière. I have small municipalities of 500 or 600 inhabitants. It hurts when you say: You're no longer with us; you're going into another RCM or another riding. That's why I'm defending the status quo, particularly considering that I have the right numbers as far as population is concerned.
The Chairman: Is Arthabasca still a city?
Mr. Landry: It doesn't exist any more. It's now Victoriaville.
The Chairman: Therefore it's Victoriaville.
Mr. Landry: Yes.
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Mr. Leroux: Several municipalities in Quebec are now in the process of merging. Some names will certainly disappear from the new electoral maps, because there are constant mergers.
Mr. Landry: Arthabaska merged with Victoriaville. Arthabaska no longer exists. It's become Victoriaville. Strike the name of Arthabaska.
The Chairman: From the riding of Richmond?
Mr. Landry: Yes, from the riding of Richmond - Arthabaska. Arthabaska no longer exists.
The Chairman: I have no further questions. Thank you very much.
[The meeting continued in camera]