[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]
Thursday, October 5, 1995
.1535 
[Translation]
The Chairman: Order, please!
This is how we proceed, Patrick. You have 15 minutes - seven or eight for your presentation and seven or eight for questions. You have the floor.
Mr. Patrick Gagnon (Member of Parliament for Bonaventure - Îles-de-la-Madeleine): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I see that my colleague from Eastern Quebec is here. Good afternoon, Mr. Crête.
I would like to begin by saying that I share the views expressed by my colleagues from Eastern Quebec. The proposal, as we can see, is designed to considerably reduce the political weight of the Lower St. Lawrence and the Gaspé peninsula.
To begin with, I find it unfortunate that the proposal is to eliminate one of the ridings in the Gaspé region. I think that people who live there want to keep the three ridings they have at the moment.
Having said that, I will focus particularly on keeping the riding of Bonaventure - Îles-de-la-Madeleine. As you know, I have presented a motion. To summarize, the main point is that the riding of Bonaventure - Îles-de-la-Madeleine, particularly the Bonaventure side, the mainland on the Gaspé peninsula, has many unique features. Many groups and organizations are located within the current riding boundaries, in the Chaleur Bay area. This is a very well-defined geographical region.
Some of the organizations located there include school boards, tourist associations, various provincial departments, volunteer services, social and community health services, that is the CLSCs, all types of social agencies, economic development bodies, union offices, the service centre for the local Human Resources Development Canada Office, and a host of other agencies that I will not mention today. These Chaleur Bay agencies are, of course, located in Bonaventure.
I should also point out that socio-economic and cultural activities occur from east to west, and not from north to south. The population is concentrated around Chaleur Bay, and the federal Electoral Boundaries Commission's proposal does not seem to take that into account.
I would like some consideration to be given to the demographic, economic, social and cultural reality of Chaleur Bay. I am asking that the riding of Bonaventure - Îles-de-la-Madeleine not be split, because we will certainly not be serving people by doing something that runs counter to their wishes. I should mention as well that we have had considerable support from the RCMs, municipalities, and so forth. I believe you have seen copies of the documents I submitted to the committee.
In the past, the Magdalen Islands were a separate riding. That is no longer the case today. The Magdalene Islands are, and I hope always will be, part of the riding of Bonaventure - Îles-de-la-Madeleine. Over the years, close cultural, economic and social ties have been woven between the two parts of the riding.
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However, if we must not exceed the provincial average by more than 25%, I would suggest that the riding of Bonaventure be extended to the east, not to the west, and not to the north and south, as has been proposed. The boundary could be moved from Port-Daniel, to the municipality of Percé. That is the main thrust of the proposal.
The document shows the proposed boundary, but that would apply only if we are required to increase the population of the riding to comply with certain criteria as requested by the federal Electoral Boundaries Commission.
I'm now ready to answer any questions you may have, particularly from my colleagues in Eastern Quebec and from yourself, Mr. Chairman. I would also be pleased to hear any comment members of Parliament may have.
The Chairman: Thank you very much, Patrick.
Mr. François Langlois, MP (Bellechasse): I will begin. I don't really have any questions to ask.
The only overall solution I see, Mr. Gagnon, is to keep the status quo for the whole area including Kamouraska and Rivière-du-Loup, with the exception of two municipalities in L'Islet, which could become part of the next riding to the west. This would mean that we would not have to redraw the boundaries, and we could send out a clear message to the provincial commission, namely, that it should take special circumstances into account. The Lower St. Lawrence and the Gaspé Peninsula are geographically isolated. the American border is not far away, and we can hardly enlarge our ridings by extending into Maine. In any case, it's all forest. We can't extend the ridings much out into the Gulf, because there are no people living there or anywhere around there. I think this is the perfect case for applying the provision in the act regarding special circumstances.
What do you think of this idea?
Mr. Gagnon: I think it's very solid. And I would point out as well that it would respect our historical background. In the past, there were six ridings in the Lower St. Lawrence and the Gaspé Peninsula. Now the proposal is to have only four. I think the boundaries proposed for the Lower St. Lawrence and the Gaspé Peninsula regions have not been thought out properly and would be difficult to implement, given the circumstances.
So I share your view that we should maintain the current boundaries so as to give the region its proper role on the political scene in the Lower St. Lawrence region, Gaspé Peninsula and Madeleine Islands.
The Chairman: Mr. Crête.
Mr. Crête (Kamouraska - Rivière-du-Loup): I made a point regarding the Magdalen Islands when I appeared before the subcommittee. By enlarging the riding, we are further marginalizing the islands. What do you think of that statement?
Mr. Gagnon: I think it's very important to raise this point, Mr. Crête. At the moment, the Magdalen Islands account for about one third of the riding. I can tell you that this part of the riding requires a great deal of attention, and rightly so. There are special problems in the fishery. At the moment, I have two full-time offices: one in Bonaventure and the other in the Magdalen Islands.
In addition, we must remember to treat the Magdalen Islands properly. After all, they used to be a separate riding with their own member of Parliament in the House of Commons. Unfortunately, the Magdalen Islands were first combined with the riding of Gaspé and later on, in the 1960s, they became part of the riding of Bonaventure.
Twenty five years have gone by, and I think we should maintain the links that have been established between the two parts of the riding.
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As the member for Rivière-du-Loup - Kamouraska pointed out so clearly, the least we can accept is that we maintain the ridings as they currently exist.
Mr. Crête: I have one last comment to make. I would like the committee and the commission to consider the fact that the two parties currently represented in the region and the people concerned feel that it would be good for the region, setting aside any electoral advantages - we're not talking about gaining one more parish here - , if the five ridings were kept as is. The only thing that we don't agree on is our desire that this map no longer be needed.
Mr. Gagnon: Yes, but for the time being, I am aware of the excellent work done by the member for his constituents and I'm sure that this proposal will make his job more difficult and will make him less effective than he is today. My comments are not pejorative. I think that we understand each other. You come from a region where you must be very visible. You must try to have access to as many constituents as possible. As you all are very much aware, in rural ridings, a member's service and visibility count more than anything else. People have to be able to naturally identify with their representative in Ottawa. This has nothing to do with political parties, and I wish to make this clear. You must ensure that the local, community, economic and other organizations in a given region can identify with the riding and, of course, with their representative sitting in the House of Commons.
Mr. Crête: Bonaventure - Îles-de-la-Madeleine: it's just as if the riding of a Toronto MP covered North Bay. Imagine the size of the territory that the MP would have to cover! There are some areas which you can only reach by plane.
Mr. Gagnon: Exactly! The riding is accessible year round only by plane. In winter, the maritime service is sometimes interrupted for two months. To cover this distance, you have to take a flight that lasts a bit more than one hour. As Mr. Crête said, it's as though a member for Toronto represented part of the riding of Outremont and had to shuttle back and forth between Toronto and Montreal.
The Chairman: The floor is yours, Mr. Assad.
Mr. Assad (Gatineau - La Lièvre): I want to ask just one question. The provincial average is 91,000. If we maintain the status quo, would the deviation be greater than 25%?
Mr. Gagnon: As we speak, the population of the riding hovers around 53,000 or 54,000. I know that this is under the provincial standard. However, and as I pointed out to you, in view of the remoteness of the Magdalen Islands, the particularities of the two ridings and the member's obligation to deal with two ridings at once, I feel that we should try to maintain the riding as it currently exists despite the fact that its population of 55,000 is below the provincial average for riding populations.
Mr. Assad: Okay. If we were to keep the status quo for the other ridings, what would the population be?
Mr. Gagnon: Approximately 54,000 people.
Mr. Crête: In my riding, it would be about 54,000 or 55,000.
The Chairman: What is the area of your current riding?
Mr. Gagnon: In terms of distance, from the Matapédia plateaus to Port Daniel, about 275 kilometres. I'm referring here to the continent, namely Bonaventure, Chaleurs Bay. In addition, there is a one hour flight between Bonaventure and the Magdalen Islands. This is not a scheduled flight, I would like to point out, otherwise, we can take the ferryboat: that's a 14 hour trip from Carleton to the Magdalen Islands, and that is in the summer!
The Chairman: Fourteen hours!
Mr. Gagnon: I can also travel through New Brunswick and Prince Edward Island and then take a five how ferry trip between Souris, Prince Edward Island and the Madgalen Islands. I have to make a road trip of nearly 18 hours when I go through the Maritime Provinces.
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The Chairman: Earlier, you mentioned that the Magdalen Islands accounted for approximately one third of your riding. Were you referring to population?
Mr. Gagnon: Yes, population. I fear that if we were to enlarge the riding, we would somewhat marginalize the interests of the people living on the Magdalen Islands. This is what concerns me. I believe that there is an urgent need to provide for the continuity of a member because of the problems in the fishing sector. The unemployment rate in the Magdalen Islands exceeds that of any other district in the province and even in Eastern Quebec.
To ensure that my constituents in the Magdalen Islands receive proper and adequate service, I want the riding to be maintained as it currently exists. This is in the interest of the people there.
The Chairman: As for the recommendations that you made earlier when we spoke, you mentioned that you would perhaps have liked to have seen the name of Bonaventure replaced by Baie-des-Chaleurs. Could you comment on that?
Mr. Gagnon: I have yet to formulate any proposal to that effect, but all of the organizations in the Bonaventure riding are identified as being Baie des Chaleurs organizations: the Baies des Chaleurs Economic Development Corporation, the Baie des Chaleurs Tourist Development Corporation, etc. This has become an entity with which the people identify and the type of economic activity that goes on is more or less unique to this area of Quebec.
I know that the name of Bonaventure has its own history, particularly at the provincial level. With the likes of Gérard D. Lévesque, who does not know about the riding of Bonaventure!
However, I think that we should perhaps think about the possibility of designating this riding, not by the name of Bonaventure - Îles-de-la-Madeleine, but by Baie-des-Chaleurs - Îles-de-la-Madeleine, which better reflects the social, political and cultural reality of this region.
The Chairman: If the name were to change, do you think that the RCMs and the organizations would object?
Mr. Gagnon: I don't think so. We have identified with the name Chaleur for the past 20 years. I'm thinking, for example, of the school boards or of the Baie des Chaleurs Hospital Centre. We refer to the Chaleurs local community service centre and the newspaper called Le Chaleurs. you always see the word ``Chaleur'' or ``Baie des Chaleurs'' somewhere in the name of the organizations and groups in our area. I feel that the commission could give some thought to this name, which would truly reflect the region.
Mr. Crête: Would this proposal still be valid if the status quo were maintained?
Mr. Gagnon: Yes.
Mr. Crête: This would not be applicable if the commission's proposal were adopted, because once you go beyond the Gaspé peninsula: people no longer identify with Chaleur Bay.
Mr. Gagnon: Following up on what Mr. Crête has just said, if we were to retain the commission's proposal, we would upset the synergy that has been created in this region. All of the organizations that I have cited come to mind. This morning, for instance, I heard about a women's group from Baie des Chaleurs and I also heard about a Baie des Chaleurs Association for the Handicapped... These organizations would have to redefine themselves, they would have to change their name and their activities would no longer be concentrated in the Chaleur Bay region but instead would focus on a north-south axis. In my opinion, this would be very costly economically and it would be very costly in terms of the way that the region defines itself. This would have a negative impact on progress in the region. Believe me, in the region, regional economic development is a very difficult thing to do, as Mr. Crête knows very well. If we compel people to redefine themselves yet again and to work along a north-south axis rather than along an east-west axis, that would jeopardize, I'm convinced, several serious regional economic development projects.
The Chairman: Thank you very much, Mr. Gagnon.
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Mr. Gagnon: I would like to thank the commissioners once again for having given consideration to our complaints. Thank you.
The Chairman: We have only a few minutes for Mr. Ménard.
Mr. Langlois: Mr. Ménard told me that he couldn't be present today. I think that we have his motion before us. If I may, I will repeat what he told me.
The Chairman: What number is it?
Mr. Langlois: Number 22.
It's one of the motions that was carried because, according to some people, there was a problem with respect to whether or not it was out of order.
Mr. Bertrand, do you have Mr. Ménard's motion?
The Chairman: Yes: ``That, in accordance with...''
Mr. Langlois: Yes, that's the motion. Then there was the letter:
- I feel that the extension of the boundary line further east was not made on any sociological basis.
I fear the juxtaposition of districts which, aside from administrative coexistence, will have no
economic or community unity.
The Chairman: Are there any questions for Mr. Langlois?
Mr. Langlois: Listen, I will simply note... Mrs. Carrière may have a good laugh.
The Chairman: We will certainly forward his grievances.
Mr. Langlois: His grievances will become condolences.
[The meeting continues in camera]