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EVIDENCE

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

Tuesday, June 11, 1996

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[English]

The Chair: This is the Standing Committee on Citizenship and Immigration. Welcome, everyone.

The order of the day is the main estimates for the fiscal year 1996-97. We have officials today from the Department of Citizenship and Immigration, but from the citizenship part of that department.

We welcome Ms Agnès Jaouich, director general, integration; and Mr. Colin Robertson, director general, public affairs. We also have...

Would you please introduce yourself? I don't have you on my list.

[Translation]

Mr. Norman Sabourin (Registrar of Canadian Citizenship): Norman Sabourin, Director for Citizenship.

The Chair: Mr. Sabourin, welcome.

[English]

Before we begin, the clerk handed something to me that I'd like to read out. Apparently, because the department is going through reorganization, there have been a lot of problems in coordinating the material we receive with what is actually happening in the department. So I'd like to read a statement that was prepared by Susan Gregson, acting director general of ministerial and executive services. It was addressed to our clerk, but I'll read it to the members. It says:

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So, members, feel at ease if there are any questions. I'd also like to tell the departmental officials to feel at ease.

As well, if you feel that some other member of the department could answer the question, we'll still be dealing with main estimates tomorrow and Thursday of this week.

[Translation]

Welcome. You may begin when you're ready.

Ms. Agnès Jaouich (Director General, Integration, Department of Citizenship and Immigration): Thank you, Madam Chair. My notes were taken away to make copies for the translators, and they were not returned to me.

[English]

The Chair: We're waiting for a document. Do you want to sing O Canada? We'll trace where the document has gone. We'll suspend for five minutes.

A voice: You can say that. I never could.

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The Chair: We will continue with the Standing Committee on Citizenship and Immigration. Please begin.

[Translation]

Ms. Jaouich: Madam Chair, thank you for your patience.

As you said earlier, in order to ensure the maintenance of a citizenship and immigration program that is effective in this context, Citizenship and Immigration has undertaken to review its methods in-depth and fully reorganize its services. That has brought about important changes in the way that we present our programs and services. It has also had considerable effects on the department staff.

The department has new service sectors. Four service sectors make up the basic structure. These are Selection, Integration, Enforcement and Refugees. An organizational chart reflecting these groups was given to you and is part of the documents distributed earlier.

I'm here as head of the Integration Service. Some of my colleagues will join me in the coming three days. I must explain that under the new structure, Integration deals with both programs and policies; this is different than what was done in the past. The programs that come under integration are citizenship and settlement. So I will be here tomorrow to discuss settlement.

However, the service delivery sector, our processing centre in Sydney, is headed by one of my colleagues who will be here tomorrow and who is responsible for the departmental services network. That was a brief overview that may explain some of my answers during the course of this afternoon.

From the standpoint of citizenship as well as settlement, we manage two renewal programs: renewal of citizenship, which was developed last year, as well as settlement which we will examine tomorrow.

As far as citizenship is concerned, I will give you various statistics for 1995-96: 215,000 new citizens were sworn in, and we processed 265,000 applications for citizenship, 54,000 applications for proof of citizenship, 27,000 for a search of citizenship records and over a million citizenship inquiries.

In the course of 1995 and 1996, in the context of this renewal, we revamped the citizenship granting process. We implemented new work methods to shorten the processing time and we now give written exams to standardize the evaluation of linguistic capabilities and knowledge of Canada. This has enabled us to shorten the process, and, in the spirit of community participation which is currently in favour, citizenship ceremonies take place increasingly within individual communities. A set of national standards must now be developed for linguistic abilities.

Later, my colleague will discuss education and public awareness, and I will quickly go over our projects for 1996-97.

In the Integration Service, integration policies and programs reflect the rights and responsibilities associated with citizenship and play an essential role in the settlement of new entrants into Canada.

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As our minister has indicated, we need a new Citizenship Act to consolidate the value and integrity of Canadian citizenship, to eliminate certain anomalies to make the mechanism for acquiring citizenship fairer and more effective and lastly to reflect a more modern view of Canada.

From the standpoint of promotion, a new citizenship promotion process, to enhance the value of citizenship in the eyes of Canadians will focus primarily on annual events such as National Citizenship Week or the 50th anniversary of Canadian citizenship in 1997.

New projects, in co-operation with public and private sector partners, will be developed to extend these activities to all regions of the country.

The quality of client services will be improved. We will set aside personal interviews, because we will rely more on telephone communications, on a centralized system of services offered through the mail, on partners who will be responsible for certain aspects of the citizenship program, on a simplification of the applications and instructions and of course, on new technologies.

That being said, I will now give the floor to my colleague and I will be pleased to answer your questions afterwards.

[English]

Mr. Colin Robertson (Director General, Public Affairs, Department of Citizenship and Immigration): The public education and outreach plan of the Department of Citizenship and Immigration was begun after the creation of the department in November 1993. The consultations that led to the announcement in November 1994 of the government's immigration strategy involved meeting with and talking to over 10,000 Canadians in church basements, at round tables, and in schools.

An underlying theme from educators, community leaders, and from Canadians generally was the lack of objective information about immigration and citizenship. They noted that most Canadians draw their opinions on immigrants from the media and that most of the stories are negative. They repeatedly underlined to us the need for public education and community outreach.

Immigrant groups have also emphasized that for integration to work, just as immigrants need to learn more about Canadian society, so do Canadians need to understand newcomers better.

[Translation]

Our plan would be a public awareness campaign that takes into account public concerns and that includes communication tools that directly emphasize the following aspects: first of all, awareness of the contribution and experience of immigrants; secondly, understanding of the immigration and citizenship process; thirdly, the connections between immigration and citizenship to build a better country; fourthly, the rights and responsibilities associated with citizenship.

We anticipate devoting additional efforts to these issues through the sponsorship of the department and the establishment of partnerships.

[English]

Let me give you some of the highlights of the past three years. I want to describe in short some of the products.

The publication Canadian by Choice was developed to create awareness of the immigrant experience. It was distributed to all dental and medical offices throughout Canada in partnership with their respective associations. It has also been made available to school boards, libraries, and second-language teachers. Would you like me to pass it around? The cost for that publication was $80,000. This being estimates, I'll tell you what the costs were.

Our regional offices were provided with community relations kits containing a video, presentation notes, overheads, and tips on making it an effective presentation.

The first gives an overview of our immigration program.

The second was developed by our Ontario region. I should underline here the importance of the regions in this, because these are the people who deliver the products in their respective regions.

It's designed to inform our enforcement partners, public service enforcement agencies and the RCMP, about how immigration officers deal with enforcement and security matters.

The third demonstrates that we have checks and balances within our program from the time an application is made to become an immigrant to the granting of citizenship.

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The cost to produce those three kits was approximately $500,000.

Journey into Hope is an 18-minute video about the refugee experience of Uganda nations and the mission of mercy carried out by Canadian immigration officials. It was produced in collaboration with the Canadian Immigration Historical Society. As I said earlier, we try to do as much as we can in partnership with other groups. This film features real stories of Canada's Ismaili community. Its cost was $10,000.

Growing Together is a backgrounder on immigration and citizenship, which provides an overview of the history of immigration, the system and how it works, particularly in terms of refugees and the settlement of new immigrants. It also discusses the concepts of citizenship and the responsibilities as well as the rights of citizenship. The text is targeted to high school students as both an educational and an awareness-raising tool. It was written for and distributed to schools in collaboration with a company that specializes in educational tools for junior and high schools. The cost was $30,000.

[Translation]

National Citizenship Week: during this week, created in 1985, we organize special ceremonies on citizenship for new Canadians, activities focussed on citizenship which feature well-known Canadians such as Moses Znaimer, Murray McLaughlan, Father Marcel de la Sablonnière and Suzanne Pinel. The theme for the past two years has been Canada - Take it to Heart, Le Canada - Une affaire de coeur.

Since last year, we've also been including the presentation by Sir Clifford Sifton on what it means to be Canadian. Last year, that presentation was read by actress Denise Chong, author of The Concubine's Children, and this year it will be astronaut Chris Hatfield. Excerpts from their speeches have been reprinted in various publications.

This year, we moved the date of National Citizenship Week. It will no longer takes place in April but in February, so that it can be associated with Flag Day and Heritage Day. This co-operation with the Department of Canadian Heritage enabled us to broaden our audience. Thanks to shared services, we have considerably reduced our costs.

For example, last year, the budget for National Citizenship Week was $500,000, whereas this year, thanks to our co-operation with Heritage Canada, our department's contribution has been only $250,000.

[English]

Another product, Land of Hope, is a one-hour television drama, which portrays seven stories of newcomers to Canada, ranging from the Acadian expulsion to the plight of political refugees today. It examines the fears and misconceptions that have dominated each period and how courage and determination overcame adversity to create a nation built by immigrants and their descendants. Produced in partnership with some film companies, our contribution to this drama was $500,000. It will be aired on Radio-Canada and Vision TV on Canada Day, July 1 of this year.

Stardate 2232 is an interactive CD-ROM aimed particularly at a high school and junior high audience. It takes players through the immigration and citizenship process. We've tested it at heritage fairs in collaboration with the Bronfman foundation.

A new publication is New Friends or Nouvelles amitiés. This is a publication similar to Canadian By Choice, which offers insight into the integration of youth into Canadian society.

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There are also regional activities. The Quebec region, for example, has developed a musical in partnership with a Quebec-based ensemble, Les Univers, which underlines the experience of diversity. It has met with a highly positive response from primary grades and we're considering taking it across Canada. Land of Hope, Stardate 2232 and a teachers' guide were developed with sponsorship and collaboration from the Canadian School Boards Association and the Canadian Teachers' Federation. The products will be marketed by the National Film Board of Canada.

[Translation]

Among the partners who participated in the design, production and distribution of our products, we should mention the Canadian Medical Association, the Canadian Dental Association, Chapters, the book firm, Four-H Clubs, the

[English]

YM-YWCA, Kinsmen clubs, Scouts and the Canadian libraries, the Canadian Cable Television Association, the Canadian National Railway and the IODE. This gives you a sense of the sponsors of our products.

The Chair: Thank you very much, Mr. Robertson.

[Translation]

Mr. Sabourin, do you have anything to add?

Mr. Sabourin: No, thank you, Madam Chair. I am here to answer questions.

The Chair: Thank you very much. Mr. Nunez, you have ten minutes.

Mr. Nunez (Bourassa): I have a whole list of questions to ask.

The Chair: We only have until 5:30 p.m., at which time there will be a vote.

Mr. Nunez: I will begin with a question that is of very great concern to me. I've already written letters to the Minister and I've asked questions in the House about this and up until now, I'm not at all satisfied with the government's attitude. This is with regard to the visa requirements for visitors from Portugal. That's the only country of the European Union that is subject to a visa requirement, although it is a country that is very friendly to Canada.

There are over 300,000 Canadians of Portuguese origin in Canada, including 60,000 in Quebec. I met with them on April 25 and they are not at all pleased with Canada's attitude. First of all, a visa is very expensive and, as you know, getting one is very time-consuming and represents a considerable red tape burden for family members.

The Chair: Mr. Nunez, before you go any further, I don't think that any of the three witnesses can answer that question, because they are not part of the section that handles residents.

Mr. Nunez: Aren't we talking about citizenship? Aren't you the ones who handle that?

The Chair: Yes, but at the beginning they said that they were separate issues. Go ahead,Ms. Jaouich.

Ms. Jaouich: If you like, I can take the question and pass it on to my colleagues, who will answer it later.

Mr. Nunez: When are they coming?

Ms. Jaouich: We're here for three days.

The Chair: They'll be here tomorrow.

Mr. Nunez: Well then, we'll wait until tomorrow.

The Chair: You can keep the question for tomorrow. There will be experts here to answer your questions.

Mr. Nunez: Fine. My second question has to do with the new Citizenship Act. As you mentioned, the committee carried out consultations in 1994. We even worked in the evening because it was urgent, according to the Immigration Minister of the day. We consulted many people and we produced reports, but then nothing happened after that. I would like to know whether you have already prepared a bill?

Ms. Jaouich: Mr. Nunez, we are currently reviewing amendments to the Citizenship Act.

Mr. Nunez: But when you came here in 1994, you told us clearly that you were working on a bill. Are you still working on it two years later?

Ms. Jaouich: It's a very complicated bill. Once the minister is ready, I'm sure that she'll table the necessary documents in due course.

Mr. Nunez: But what's so complicated about this?

The Chair: I believe the witness has answered, Mr. Nunez.

Mr. Nunez: No, no.

The Chair: The minister also responded when she was before the committee.

Mr. Nunez: I don't think so, because unfortunately the minister did not spend a lot of time here. I think you are a bit embarrassed because the minister is the one who should answer my question.

The Chair: Well, in that case, ask it in the House of Commons.

Mr. Nunez: Unfortunately, I don't have a lot of time. You know that we have many priorities.

The Chair: I believe the minister said that a bill should be tabled in the fall.

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Mr. Nunez: There are two or three issues that concern me a great deal. The first one is the oath of allegiance to the Queen, and you know what my opinion is about that. I find it's somewhat outmoded to swear allegiance to a Queen who is not Canadian, who is foreign, particularly for immigrants such as myself. We come from a country that got rid of the monarchy more than 100 years ago, and furthermore, other Commonwealth countries have also had this debate. What do you suggest? What are the alternatives to this oath of allegiance to a Queen, which is slightly outmoded and slightly undemocratic given that these days monarchies are losing steam?

Ms. Jaouich: The standing committee certainly has studied other solutions, as you were saying earlier. Once the minister is ready to make these solutions known, I'm sure that you will be among the first to hear about them.

Mr. Nunez: That answer just won't do for a member of Parliament, Ms. Jaouich. I didn't come here to get answers like that.

Ms. Jaouich: Unfortunately, that's all I can tell you for the time being.

Mr. Nunez: Always the same old thing! You are probably going to give the same answer to all my questions!

The Chair: Mr. Nunez, could I just make a comment?

Mr. Nunez: Yes.

The Chair: This comment is for all committee members. The purpose of today's meeting is to examine the part of the Estimates that Ms. Jaouich and Mr. Robertson are responsible for. With all due respect, I believe that these questions must be asked of the minister. We can ask her to appear before the committee once again.

Mr. Nunez: Personally, I agree.

The Chair: If everyone agrees, I do too. If we want to ask the minister to come back, we can talk about it in the subcommittee. But today, we are here to study the Estimates.

Mr. Nunez: But they haven't given any figures.

The Chair: Unless I'm mistaken, they are in the documents.

Mr. Nunez: Yes, but I would have liked to have seen the figures in the presentation as well. What are the estimates for dual citizenship? I'll probably get the same answer.

Ms. Jaouich: That's part of the same questions.

The Chair: Yes.

Mr. Nunez: What is the answer concerning children born in Canada of foreign parents?

Ms. Jaouich: I'm afraid I'll have to disappoint you by giving you the same answer, but that too is part of the amendment to the Act that we mentioned earlier.

Mr. Nunez: Madam, I'm very sorry, but I think that as a member of the Opposition, I'm kind of wasting my time here. If the minister were here, we could ask further questions.

The Chair: Mr. Nunez, I'm going to have to repeat what I already said to you.

Mr. Nunez: But not even the deputy minister is here, not even the deputy minister!

The Chair: Do you wish to use your time to ask questions that the lady can't answer?

Mr. Nunez: But I don't even know what questions she can answer!

The Chair: Or do you wish to use your time to ask questions about the Estimates?

Mr. Nunez: She told us about...

The Chair: If you don't know, you can skip your turn.

Mr. Nunez: ...a reorganization, but I did not get any explanation of this reorganization.

The Chair: Well then, ask your question about the reorganization.

Mr. Nunez: What does this reorganization consist of? All I can see is that on average, it takes nearly a year to get your citizenship in Canada, except in Quebec, where it only took a few days before the referendum. Do you have an explanation for me?

Ms. Jaouich: Perhaps I could answer your first question and try to explain the purpose of the reorganization and how it was done.

Naturally, when we decided to reduce the work force, all the department's activities were called into question. It was a somewhat avant-garde initiative, because a higher level was done away with. The assistant deputy minister level was eliminated, and now we have a much flatter, much more horizontal structure, with several director generals reporting directly to the deputy minister. Various functions were combined so as to serve our clients effectively. That is why we have the concept of selecting new immigrants upon entry.

There is also the question of integration, which comes under the same entity, and just as I was saying earlier, we have settlement, and eventually, citizenship and implementation of the Act. We decided to have a specific group for refugees, because we realized that this group needs particular attention. We shouldn't necessarily lump them in with other immigrants.

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So we have these four programs, which are supported by the rest of the department - corporate services, public affairs, human resources, finance and administration. These units provide support to the four groups that serve our clients. So that's the structure. So these are the kinds of things we will be telling you about for three days. Our activities will be based on this way of operating, which was put into place in order to reduce the work force and better serve our clients.

Mr. Nunez: You mentioned that in 1995-96, there were 215,000 new citizens. Could you give us a breakdown by province?

Mr. Sabourin: Those figures are not immediately available.

The Chair: Can you send them to us?

Mr. Sabourin: Yes, we can send those to you.

The Chair: Thank you.

Mr. Nunez: Which period specifically were you referring to in 1995-96; from which month to which month?

Mr. Sabourin: The figures are grouped according to the financial year. So the period is from April 1 to March 31 of the following year.

The Chair: Thank you, Mr. Nunez.

[English]

Ms Meredith.

Ms Meredith (Surrey - White Rock - South Langley): Thank you, Madam Chair.

In the reorganization of the department, they have reduced the number of full-time equivalent positions, I believe, by 61 positions. I'm making the separation between citizenship and settlement. In the citizenship component, was there any reduction in full-time equivalent positions?

Ms Jaouich: At headquarters?

Ms Meredith: No, throughout the department.

Ms Jaouich: There will be. We're in the process of going through this downsizing. So far, it has been on a voluntary basis. We've been able to manage on a voluntary basis, but it's not complete yet because the regions are still consolidating and reviewing their structure. We haven't completed it but we're in the middle of the process.

Ms Meredith: Are you looking for those full-time equivalent positions at the service delivery level, the people who are directly working with the people applying for citizenship, or will they be made up in the management level?

Ms Jaouich: Throughout the organization, but certainly as we're going through mailing, which will be the process we are implementing this year, there will be less requirement for front-line staff because the applications will be dealt with through the mail, through a centralized processing centre.

Ms Meredith: That brings me to another concern I have. I know from talking to the people in my own constituency, with its very large new immigrant population, very large citizenship courts, the office is going to be closed and relocated. As I understand it, Vancouver will be the only one, taking away the one-on-one assistance for immigrants in trying to help them through the process.

I have real problems with how you are going to determine whether an individual is, first, the same individual you're dealing with in a mailed fill-in application, or even on the telephone. Unless you have a one-on-one connection with the people who are applying to become citizens, how can you know that this is the individual you want to examine to ascertain their language ability, or whether or not all the information in the application is accurate?

Ms Jaouich: Although they will not be seen at application time, they will be seen twice in the process, at the testing and at the ceremony, where identity will be checked both times. So there will still be personal contact, but not necessarily to pick up a form and to deliver a form.

Ms Meredith: Having been to more than a few citizenship courts, I'd like to know how it is possible that individuals who don't understand a simple instruction in either of the official languages are able to get their citizenship, when they're not even able to understand an instruction, ``Please repeat your name''.

Ms Jaouich: As you are aware, we have normalized testing now. The intent is to try to make it as fair as possible. The tests are applied equally to everyone. There are people who pass and there are people who fail.

Ms Meredith: I guess I'm asking what sort of basic language ability is considered in granting citizenship.

Ms Jaouich: If it would be helpful and you don't have it, I can make sure you receive a copy of the booklet, A Look At Canada, which is the booklet that prospective citizens have to be familiar with in order to respond to the questions. If you haven't seen it, maybe I can -

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Ms Meredith: I have seen it and I've answered questions from people who are trying to fill in the forms and find out all the responses and the answers. But I repeat, because I've been to a number of courts where I've noticed an inability of individuals to even understand simple questions, I just wondered if exceptions are allowed. Are there exceptions that the citizenship department accepts in certain cases, where they don't expect an applicant to meet a language requirement?

Mr. Sabourin: In terms of the requirements for knowledge and language, the minister can waive those requirements on humanitarian grounds. So there are cases where a person may not have very good language skills but will nonetheless receive citizenship. This is particularly true for elderly people, where it's regularly waived.

Ms Meredith: That answers my question. Thank you.

Getting back to the process and the cutbacks, is it going to be the practice to take away the smaller offices that are closer to the people because of the mail-ins and the phone-in interviews? The way I look at it, you might be taking the human aspect away from the process, which, when you're talking about new immigrants, is very important. I'm a little concerned that in prioritizing the cutbacks, the service delivery end and having easy access to the people we're serving as a government is not being considered.

Ms Jaouich: I think this is part of the elements that are being looked at, and as I said, the restructuring in the regions has not yet taken place. It's being explored, but as far as I know there haven't been any decisions taken in that regard. We're talking about consolidation, not necessarily cancelling.

[Translation]

Did you want to add something?

[English]

Mr. Sabourin: One important point, I think, is that in every case in the past clients were seen three times for the process, whereas we're now trying to cut out one step. This does not mean we want to reduce the sense of moment and community that goes along with receiving citizenship. While a person may not receive one-to-one attention at the moment of filing a form and leaving it with a public servant, we nonetheless want to maintain the community involvement at the time of the ceremonies. So even though in a small community you may have a client who sends his application by mail to the other end of the country, at the time of writing a test or being sworn in to become a citizen, that person would take part in a community event near their locale, perhaps an event - in terms of the ceremony - presided over by an Order of Canada recipient in the community. That's where I think we want to put some emphasis in terms of community involvement.

Ms Meredith: I guess my concern is more in the easy access to the other processes. I can live with the mail-in for the application as long as there are checks - personal contact - to make sure the individuals are in fact who they are claiming to be.

I still have difficulty, particularly in a situation like Vancouver where you have a downtown core that is starting to become very difficult to get to... If you expect all the people from 60 or 70 miles away to come to this office in the downtown core, you're not really serving the public well. It's more expensive for office rental. It's harder for people to get at, and it distresses me when I hear that an office that's located outside of that core, that serves 60 miles down the valley, is going to be closed to keep a very expensive location in downtown Vancouver. It makes more sense to me to have smaller storefront offices, if you will, for those purposes around the area, rather than centralizing for the sake of centralizing. I'm not sure that would be a cheaper way of going about it. I guess I'm going on and on about something of that nature.

Are you able to talk about the changes to the Citizenship Act, what you're looking at, areas that you will be dealing with? I'm curious to know whether or not you're looking at longer residency periods. For Canadians to retain their citizenship, they need to be in the country at least six months, I understand. You can't be out of the country for more than six months at a time. Are you looking at making that longer?

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Mr. Sabourin: In terms of what we're considering, I think the report that was made by the standing committee in 1994 is of considerable assistance. There are several options in front of the minister, but I think key decisions have yet to be made on some of these policy directions. The government will have to table its proposals in due course.

Ms Meredith: We are anticipating a new piece of legislation in the fall. Is that a fair expectation on our part?

Ms Jaouich: Not at this time.

The Chairman: We'll be back. Mr. Cullen.

Mr. Cullen (Etobicoke North): Thank you, Madam Chair. Ms Jaouich, welcome and thank you.

I have a general question. I think it's directed to the right group here, but because we've compartmentalized the estimates, if I'm on the wrong track just correct me. I'd like the benefit of your experience and knowledge. In looking at priorities for integration, what sort of priorities do you see, or are the priorities very locally specific, constituency specific or regionally specific?

The reason I ask is because in my riding I hear people say the priority should be language, basic life skills training, looking for a job, or preparing for citizenship. I also hear a lot about the difficulties youth born here from new immigrant families are having integrating.

I wonder if you could just paint a bit of a picture for me as to what the priorities are and how they're developed.

Ms Jaouich: You're touching on a subject that's very dear to my heart, because I'm an immigrant who has integrated, and if I have integrated certainly it is because I had the advantage of the languages. We've been hearing from communities that language is essential, but integration is a two-way street. There's so much you can expect immigrants to do in order to integrate, but we have to do a lot of work with the host communities as well. This is why my colleague here is busy with the brochures you've seen and different media products we're trying to distribute, because there's so much you can ask a newcomer to try to do in order to integrate.

Certainly skills are something we are looking at through the selection process. Language is what we're providing through the settlement group. Tomorrow we'll be talking about how best to use this money and the intent of putting it at the local level so each community can decide how it can best integrate its own newcomers.

I'm not sure if this answers your question. This is where we see the priorities.

Mr. Cullen: On the related question of youth, do you see that as an emerging problem that should have more priority attached to it, or is it something that has always been there?

I hear stories in my riding that youth are sometimes torn. They have the culture and the practices of their parents who were born elsewhere, while they're being integrated in the local community and subject to peer pressure. Is that area an emerging priority, or is it something that has always been there that we have to deal with?

Ms Jaouich: It is something we see as being essential, and most non-government serving organizations that seek funding from the department are focusing on the gap between parents and their children, and how can they provide support to both families and teenagers or children to try to diminish this gap. Because the younger generation is just a little step ahead, it does provide some challenges for the parents.

In most of the communities we've been talking to, the message has come across that they need to make sure they try to fill that gap. Through settlement renewal, each community will be able to better determine the specific needs of its population.

Mr. Robertson: Mr. Cullen, we're increasingly targeting the youth in schools, especially the junior high and high school, because what they learn in schools they take home to their parents. In terms of the integration process, that's a targeted group and we can probably reach them. We attempt to reach them through different media.

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If you look at the magazine New Friends we've just passed around, that was targeted especially at the group you're describing. We use CD-ROM multimedia, which they will identify with, because we know children view television. They probably spend as much time watching television as they do at school. So we design products that will be attractive to them.

Mr. Cullen: I have one quick question. Mr. Robertson, I want to touch on the publications, the high quality and the target groups. The one that particularly intrigued me was New Friends. I wonder if you could expand on the target for that. For example, in the ridings for the constituents we work with, is that something new immigrant youth would find useful, and how can we get hold of it and use it?

Mr. Robertson: Yes, we believe they will be attractive. We developed these products in association with the Canadian School Boards Association and the Canadian Teachers' Federation. Essentially, instead of trying to impose something, we went to them and asked what they thought would be useful: the CD-ROM; the Stardate game I talked about; Land of Hope, the documentary film we've shown; and New Friends, which built on the success of Canadian by Choice, aimed at an older group. They found that attractive. When you look at it, it has the feel of a Benetton magazine, and this is very popular in the schools.

Mr. Cullen: Yes, is the target for New Friends students generally or new immigrant students?

Mr. Robertson: It's for new immigrant students but also generally, because as we talked about earlier, it's a two-way street. It's not just immigrants learning about Canada; it's also Canadians learning about the immigrant experience, especially in large urban centres now - Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver - where the cultures are coming together, especially in the schools. Teachers are looking for tools that will help them. Focusing on real-life stories - we tell it straight up - helps deal with fears and concerns, the whole challenge of diversity.

The Chair: Thank you.

Mr. Peric.

Mr. Peric (Cambridge): Thank you, Madam Chair.

Mr. Robertson, how many copies of these brochures have been printed, and what's the cost of all three different brochures?

Mr. Robertson: In my statement, I detailed the cost. In terms of printing, for example, Growing Together, we started off with 5,000 copies. We distributed this through an educational company, and there was extraordinary demand. Teachers found it extremely useful. So we're now at about the 20,000 mark in terms of reprints, because we underestimated the demand. I think we had printed approximately 10,000 copies of New Friends, and I think we're into a second printing of Canadian by Choice, roughly 15,000.

How is it marketed? We distributed Canadian by Choice through dentists' and doctors' offices, because most Canadians and immigrants eventually have to wind up in one of those two places. We're hoping to do the same with New Friends, although as I mentioned we developed the latter products in collaboration with the Canadian School Boards Association and the Canadian Teachers' Federation, so we will distribute it through them because they in a sense participated in the development. We took it out, focus-tested it in some schools, they as teachers made comments, and then we developed the product.

Mr. Peric: In your opinion, how could that help to integrate newcomers who have no children?

Mr. Robertson: Usually newcomers, for example, without children know people with children. Children are often the great equalizer.

You present a dilemma, but our hope is that by contact with children and others, they will learn. But as I mentioned, our products are not aimed exclusively. We have targeted particular youth groupings. We feel that they reach the broader community. But Land of Hope, for example, is aimed at a general audience. Canadian by Choice is aimed at an older group because we identified early on the problems of integration at that level.

Mr. Peric: Madame Jaouich, you mentioned before that you are an immigrant. I'm a former immigrant as well. Going back 28 years, if I saw that material it wouldn't have helped me to integrate. Would it have helped you?

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Ms Jaouich: What I was going to add to my colleague's comments is that this is only one element. What we are also using to help immigrants integrate is a host of other programs that we fund through the settlement programs. Some of this is language training; some of it is adaptation. There are different programs run by different NGOs to service different communities in different cities.

You saw only one tool, but there are other programs that reach out for, say, women who are in the home, families that do not necessarily have children, or individuals who have been tortured. So there are different groups that serve different purposes, and this is only one of them.

The Chair: Mr. Nunez.

[Translation]

Mr. Nunez: What is the best way of obtaining Canadian citizenship today?

Mr. Sabourin: At this time, throughout the country, the average turnaround, from the moment the application is sent in and the moment the person obtains his or her citizenship is about 11 months.

Mr. Nunez: And how many applications are backlogged?

Mr. Sabourin: At this time, for all of Canada, between 70,000 and 80,000 applications are being processed, but they are not necessarily backlogged. They have reached various points in the process.

Mr. Nunez: And how would those 80,000 applications break down by province?

Mr. Sabourin: I don't have the answer to that question, but I can attempt to obtain it and provide it to the chair.

Mr. Nunez: I have already asked for the following information: can you tell us how many citizenship certificates were issued by your department with a breakdown by month and by province for 1994, 1995 and 1996, as well as the number of backlogged cases for each month and each province for those same years?

Mr. Sabourin: We can certainly provide you with the number of new citizens broken down by province, for each of those years. We can also probably obtain the number of new citizens per quarter, for each of the provinces. I don't think we'll be able to determine the number of backlogged cases, at least not for each province and each month, for past years. However, we can certainly endeavour to obtain as many of the figures you asked for as we possibly can.

Mr. Nunez: Can you send that information to the committee? Are you saying that there is no backlog at this time?

Mr. Sabourin: No. At this time, between 70,000 and 80,000 applications are being processed. Some of those might be considered part of the backlog. One must nevertheless admit that if we process between 200,000 and 230,000 applications per year, at any given time a certain number of those will be going through that process. If there were zero applications being processed, that would mean that none had been sent in.

Mr. Nunez: My question is very specific: is there, yes or no, a backlog at this time?

Mr. Sabourin: Yes. There is always a backlog and we try to eliminate it. If there were no backlog, we would certainly have reached the objective we set for ourselves, which was to process all routine citizenship applications within a six-month period.

Mr. Nunez: And how many applications are in the backlog, according to you?

Ms. Jaouich: Perhaps I could add something. In the past, Mr. Nunez, when people actually came to the office to put in their applications, it may have been easier to count and track applications. Now that they are sent in by mail, your question is a bit harder to answer. People come to get the application forms, fill them out at home, mail them in, but we don't have a record of their numbers, nor do we monitor the length of that preliminary phase. That is why we are finding it a bit difficult to answer your question, although we probably could have answered it when the forms were not sent in by mail.

Mr. Nunez: And what is the rate of refusals?

Mr. Sabourin: The percentage of applications refused has remained approximately the same over the past few years, and it is close to 3%.

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Mr. Nunez: Why?

Mr. Sabourin: These are people who do not meet one of the requirements set out in the law.

Mr. Nunez: Which ones?

Mr. Sabourin: They may be guilty of a criminal offence, or they don't satisfy the language or knowledge criteria, or they don't satisfy residence or national security criteria.

Mr. Nunez: Would it be possible to include in the document you send the committee the rate of refusals and the reasons given?

Mr. Sabourin: We can certainly give you the refusal rate per year, maybe even per quarter - I think so - but probably not the reasons for which the applications were rejected. In their decisions, citizenship judges only reject or accept an application. They can reject an application for one reason or even for two or maybe three.

The Chairman: Mr. Nunez, your time is up. You have had your five minutes.

Mr. Bélanger.

Mr. Bélanger (Ottawa-Vanier): Madam Jaouich, on average it now takes 11 months to process an application, according to what you've said, and you're reorganizing how it's done. What is your objective and when do you think it will be attained?

Ms. Jaouich: At this point, it takes 11 months. I'd like to say that about a year ago, it took two years. So there has already been a considerable change. Our objective is six months and we hope it will be reached by the end of the year.

Mr. Bélanger: Calendar year or fiscal?

Ms. Jaouich: Calendar. We have already set up some of the process and we are reviewing the old way of doing things now. By the end of the calendar year, we think the waiting period will have been brought down to six months. That's our objective.

Mr. Bélanger: Now, to attain that objective, do you have to increase your staff?

Ms. Jaouich: No, we're not increasing our staff. On the contrary, we're decreasing it to try to attain the department's budget objectives. On the other hand, we've changed the way we work. One of those changes is using the postal service. We're setting up a computerized system that will link all offices and processing centres. That's been underway since January and will go on until November. The computer system will help us to process requests more efficiently without having to hire any extra staff while maintaining personnel decreases.

Mr. Bélanger: Once the system has been reformed, you'll have gone from how many offices to how many?

Ms. Jaouich: We're examining the effect this change will have on regional offices. The decision has not yet been made. We're trying to consolidate while reducing and integrating citizenship offices to those of immigration when they're on the same site.

Mr. Bélanger: Do you have any idea of how many full-time equivalents will be affected? You expect to go from how many to how many?

Ms. Jaouich: On the citizenship side, about one hundred people will be affected by these changes. As I was saying, to date, in our regional offices, it's being done on a voluntary basis.

Mr. Bélanger: At the beginning of its mandate, the government decided to eliminate citizenship judges. Could you tell me how many there were and how many remain and when there will be none left?

Mr. Sabourin: At the beginning of the government's mandate, there were some 54 citizenship judges in place. Today, there are 25 and the last one's mandate expires in July 1998.

Ms. Jaouich: I simply wanted to point out that none of the judges are being laid off, rather...

Mr. Bélanger: Yes, when their mandates are up.

Ms. Jaouich: ... their mandates are not renewed when they come up.

Mr. Bélanger: Fine. Thank you.

[English]

The Chair: Merci. Ms Meredith.

Ms Meredith: Thank you, Madam Chair.

I want to go back to when somebody makes an application, in writing or whatever, for citizenship. Do you use the Chinese telegraph code when you're dealing with the applicants from the Far East, from Hong Kong, or from China?

You're asking me what that is?

The Chair: Yes.

Mr. Sabourin: I would like to know about this code.

Ms Meredith: It concerns me that you wouldn't even be aware of it.

The Chinese telegraph code is an identification for the Chinese characters, where each character is given a different number. The combination of characters that make up a name becomes the code. For a person whose name is Chinese and who is known by the characters there can be different interpretations of the code. There can be a Cantonese or a Mandarin interpretation of the code, or even a mixture of the two or an English interpretation.

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So if you're not using that form of identification then you would have no idea, I assume, if this individual had made an application using the Mandarin interpretation and was now using the Cantonese.

Ms Jaouich: Ms Meredith, we're only managers, but I will check with staff to make sure... We may, but certainly - maybe not Mr. Sabourin or me - we'll check into that and get back to you.

Ms Meredith: I would be curious to know, because it's been drawn to my attention that there are individuals who use a variation of the translations of their codes.

Unless we are using a consistent form in immigration, in terms of enforcement in citizenship applications, we literally have no control over individuals who may be using different translations of their characters. So I would be more than curious to know.

The Chair: Mr. Sabourin.

Mr. Sabourin: Thank you, Madam Chair. In terms of the identity of the person, it's something we take very seriously, and the identity of an applicant is established at the time that they're admitted to Canada.

Applicants for citizenship must provide proof of their identity on the basis of their immigration documents. An applicant who is unable to furnish that proof would be told that he has to provide it or else the application will not be processed.

If there is any discrepancy in the identity that the applicant wishes to use and the identity used on gaining entry into Canada, we will ask the applicant to either clarify the identity and get an amendment of their record of landing or we will ask the applicant for a court order showing that, under provincial legislation, his or her name has actually been amended in law.

Ms Meredith: But unless you're being consistent in this particular area, how would you know whether an individual using those characters, that name which is in character form, did not make an application for landed status with one translation of his name and is coming back through the process and has been granted landed status with another form when you're dealing with him from a citizenship point of view?

There are individuals who have been granted landed status and who are applying for citizenship but are discovered at that point to be somebody who is not wanted to follow through the process, and they've been ordered deported at that process.

My concern is that all aspects of the immigration department would be used in a consistent form that clearly identifies that individual. And, I repeat, when you're talking about somebody whose name is Chinese, the only clear way you have of identifying that person is through the Chinese telegraph code.

Mr. Sabourin: You've certainly raised a very legitimate concern, and fortunately on the citizenship side we are able to rely on the expertise and the care that port-of-entry officers and other officers take in admitting people to Canada. But perhaps this is a question we could take to our enforcement colleagues in terms of making sure a person doesn't gain admission to Canada twice using different identities.

Ms Meredith: Thank you. Moving on to citizenship judges and the fact that, I believe you said, it was 1998 that the last citizenship judges appointments will have expired and they will not be replaced, I take it that they are paid positions and that they're being replaced, I understand from comments you made earlier, by people who have received the Order of Canada.

Is that going to be a paid function or is this something they're just going to be doing on a voluntary basis?

Mr. Sabourin: Currently the functions of the judges are threefold.

Many of them are administrative in nature and all those functions we've tried to transfer to Citizenship staff. It can be done more efficiently, especially through automation and so on.

Functions of the second type are adjudicative or quasi-judicial, and these the citizenship judges still carry out, although in many respects we've simplified the procedure by eliminating, for example, personal interviews in very routine cases.

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The third type is the actual swearing-in ceremonial functions. In that case, when an Order of Canada recipient presides, it's on a purely voluntary basis. Certainly for the future, when there are no more judges, there would be a possibility of considering honoraria for eminent Canadians to preside at these ceremonies. Obviously the management of a pool of volunteers presents some challenges, so that may be one way to address some of those challenges.

Ms Meredith: You mentioned earlier that the citizenship judge may refuse to grant citizenship, so that's the semi-judicial decision-making that you just mentioned.

I understand the strict criteria they would be using. It could be done through a departmental staff function, could it not?. In essence, all you would need, if all those functions were absorbed by departmental staff, would be somebody to appear before a citizenship court, hand out the certificates and wish everybody well.

I guess what I'm getting at is this: what kinds of savings are we going to have in dollar amounts by eliminating citizenship judges? By having the people in the department pick up the responsibilities, are we going to end up hiring more bureaucrats at a higher amount and then create offices and that kind of expense? Are we really going to be saving money on this?

Mr. Sabourin: In terms of the money savings, certainly the salary of the judges will be saved. Right now, even though the judges make the decisions on entitlement to citizenship, citizenship is granted by the minister's delegate. The actual grant of citizenship is done by the minister through an officer who must review the application and decide, among other things, if the decision of the judge should be appealed.

Once the legislation is amended to allow the decision-making through an administrative mechanism rather than the quasi-judicial mechanism we now know, there will be an opportunity to combine the administrative review that is now being done with the actual decision-making on the entitlement to citizenship. This combination is where the savings will actually take place.

Ms Meredith: Thank you very much.

The Chair: Mr. Dromisky.

Mr. Dromisky (Thunder Bay - Atikokan): I have some simple questions. A reference was made to supportive groups, or NGOs that were somehow involved in a supportive role, such as the Kinsmen. Could you clarify just exactly what these people are doing and how they become involved?

Also, could you identify any other add-ons to the regular staff who play some kind of role in keeping the department going and who carry out various functions for either citizenship or immigration?

Mr. Sabourin: Let me give you an example. We've just been talking about citizenship ceremonies. It's usually in that area that groups such as the Kinsmen and Rotary play an active role. They will agree, for example, to host a citizenship ceremony as one of their regular meetings. They would invite new Canadians and their families and members of Rotary.

The citizenship ceremony is a significant event in a person's life. They are, in a sense, joining Canada, Canadian society. By participating with groups like Kinsmen, Rotary and others such as this, we think it helps to give the new immigrants a sense that they are now part of this larger group. It also gives, from the perspective of members of these various associations, a sense of what Canada's all about.

For example, we've have members of the IODE serve tea at citizenship ceremonies. Again, it's Canada as a community, and it's integrating the community into these significant events, not just in the lives of the immigrants but also in the lives of other Canadians, so they can have a sense of what citizenship is all about.

Mr. Dromisky: You're just talking about ceremonies and so forth.

Mr. Sabourin: Yes.

Mr. Dromisky: I'm just wondering if there are any other people who are involved somewhere within your departments who are not members of the staff but who play some kind of a supportive role, or any kind of role, that is a non-paying role.

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Ms Jaouich: Under the settlement programs, we have a host program to assist volunteers and help them get the skills they require in order to help newcomers integrate. So there is a supportive role that some NGOs play through the settlement funding.

Mr. Dromisky: In any of these roles we're talking about - these are the add-ons, as I call them - are they in a sense covering any of the responsibilities that should have been normally covered by any department or any one within the department - any regular staff members, that is?

Ms Jaouich: Not in the host program I am describing.

Mr. Dromisky: Any other program?

Ms Jaouich: Not that I'm aware of.

Mr. Dromisky: Thank you.

Mr. Robertson: We try to do it through collaboration and cooperation. That's the principle. For example, I talked about the Sifton lectures earlier. The Sifton lecture this year was done in the Maritime Museum of the Atlantic in Halifax. The museum provided its facilities free of charge.

There's the Pier 21 group, which is seeking to develop Pier 21, where many immigrants came to Canada, into a site basically praising the immigrant experience. They formed the organizing group for this event.

The presiding official at the ceremony was a woman named Ruth Goldbloom, the chair of the group and a member of the Order Of Canada. Various schools in the Halifax area were invited. They came, observed and participated. A youth group performed, which was a musical ensemble from one of the local schools. We had a bagpiper, who led the officiating party.

The rental of chairs and the reception afterward was paid for by Canadian National, because they operated the railway, and basically it was their ships that brought these immigrants. They paid $5,000 for this, which covered the cost, for example, for the bagpiper. The other services, such as the ensemble, were given a small gratuity from this. That's how it works.

Mr. Dromisky: So there would also be volunteers who would do the interpreting and different functions of that nature, more or less.

Mr. Robertson: On the broad settlement side, absolutely.

Mr. Dromisky: Non-paying.

Mr. Robertson: It varies.

Mr. Dromisky: It varies.

Mr. Robertson: You can't be categoric, because often through settlement services we'll provide funds to a group. They may be a mixture of administrators - full-time as well as volunteers, especially when you get into English and French as a second language - and professional staff.

Mr. Dromisky: Thank you very much.

The Chair: Mr. Nunez.

[Translation]

Mr. Nunez: About the ceremonies surrounding the deliverance of the citizenship certificates, when I was elected as an MP I asked that the list be sent to the MPs. I was told it was confidential. Finally, we are getting it today and I thank you for that.

Now my problem as the citizenship and immigration official critic is that I'm never invited to the big ceremonies held in Montreal. I'm only invited to those held in my riding and even then I don't have the right to say anything. On the other hand, there's always a representative of the Minister or a liberal MP who, from time to time, does have the right to speak. Who decides who will be invited and who will speak? How is it organized?

Mr. Sabourin: Citizenship ceremonies are the responsibility of the citizenship judge who decides on the procedure. The judge must decide whether he wants to have guests of honour, give them the right to speak and so forth. Generally, unless there are exceptional circumstances, even if there's an eminent Canadian, say someone decorated with the Order of Canada and even if that person is in charge of the ceremony, the procedure still will have been determined in advance by the citizenship judge and his office staff. It's up to the judge to set out the procedure for those ceremonies.

Mr. Nunez: As I can't see a judge to make my comments, tell him that I do have problems and complaints to make.

The Chair: They're not allowed to speak to him either, Mr. Nunez. So ask another question.

Mr. Nunez: I'd at least like to be there. But the Liberals speak only if they are representingMr. Minister.

The Chair: Only Mrs. Minister.

Mr. Nunez: Yes, that's what I meant. I'm from the Opposition. I think that in a democracy when someone from the government side addresses a group, someone from the Opposition should also be given the possibility to do the same thing.

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Secondly, concerning the security investigations that are done before citizenship is granted, who examines them? How long do they take on average?

Mr. Sabourin: The security investigations are the responsibility of the Canadian Security Investigation Services. They advise us. In the great majority of cases, it is done rather quickly, within two to four months.

Mr. Nunez: Within two to four months. But those investigations have already taken place by the time landed immigrant or refugee status is granted. Why repeat the process? Is it because of regulations?

Mr. Sabourin: First of all, it's a requirement provided for in the Act. The minister thus has the responsibility of consulting CSIS and ensuring that this provision of the Act is enforced. We could give you many examples of cases where someone admitted as a landed immigrant requests citizenship only 10, 15 or 20 years later. During all that time, that person could have engaged in activities that might put Canada's security at risk.

Mr. Nunez: I asked you earlier what the rejection rate was and why. Is it due to the results of security investigations? Is it because of language, or something else? I don't clearly see what is the role of these security investigations. If the rejection rate is so low, what purpose do those investigations serve?

Mr. Sabourin: It's rather rare that any application is rejected because of the national security criterion. There's a process allowing applicants for citizenship to make representations to explain why they should not be considered as a risk to our national security. Finally, I think it's interesting to note that in many cases you have someone making an application and he's told that his request presents a problem and review is pending. So you have a lawyer or the applicant himself giving us a phone call; we explain that his application is being examined by the Canadian Security Information Service. Strangely enough, in most cases, the application is withdrawn and the person sometimes even leaves the country.

Mr. Nunez: Is it true, as some citizenship applicants have told me, that it sometimes takes three to four years before getting an answer from CSIS?

Mr. Sabourin: There have been some very rare cases where CSIS has taken from two to four years, very exceptional cases, before giving us an answer. In those circumstances, there is a process allowing the applicants to make representations to CSIS.

The Chair: Mr. Nunez, your time is up.

[English]

The Chair: I have a question. Last year one of the issues that was raised by the Auditor General, and also members of this committee, was the lack of detail in terms of the breakdown in the citizenship section of the main estimates. I find the same problem this year. Is there a particular reason? Is it due to the reorganization of the department and we still haven't figured out the various sections?

Ms Jaouich: There are a couple or reasons, Madam Chairman. Certainly the reorganization is one that we're struggling with, but the other one, which is more important, is that we had indicated last year that we were putting into place the citizenship registration system. That took a few months to sort of define. The implementation of that was started in January.

We're certainly hoping that by the time it is fully implemented across the country, which will be at the end of this calendar year, that system will be able to provide us with the data we should be providing in the next main estimates.

The Chair: That would help Mr. Nunez also, of course.

My second question had to do with page 14, which is where I'm looking in terms of part III of the estimates. I'm looking at figure 3, which is the 1994-95 financial performance. It's on page 14.

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I notice that in terms of the other budgetary items, except for corporate services, there was a decrease. Corporate services was an increase.

Would you like to provide us with a few more details? How come it turned out that there was an increase in that particular item in the budget and a decrease in some of the other items, such as citizenship registration, promotion, and settlement?

Ms Jaouich: Madam Chair, could I ask you to be so kind as to refer this to our legal and finance department?

The Chair: I'm sorry. Tomorrow? That's fine.

Ms Meredith.

Ms Meredith: Thank you, Madam Chair.

For clarification, I believe the organization that does all the immigrant citizenship reviews is CSIS. It's the Canadian Security Intelligence Service rather than the information systems and technologies branch. I just wanted to get that on the record.

Looking at the numbers you gave us earlier - and I may have written the first one down incorrectly - was it 215,000 certificates for Canadian citizenship that you were getting, 54,000 proof of citizenship?

The Chair: I want to mention that those figures are on page 6 of the outlook document, if anybody wants to make a reference to them.

Ms Meredith: Okay, so the proof of citizenship is that people need proof of citizenship for some other reason. They would get hold of the department and ask you to provide them with something that proves they're Canadian.

Mr. Sabourin: That's for any person who is a citizen. The person may have been born here, born abroad of a Canadian parent, naturalized here, became a citizen fifteen years ago. The person might want a certificate with a more recent photograph, for example.

Ms Meredith: I don't usually get into specifics, but I had an older woman who was quite upset. She had her original citizenship document, which she said was tattered and well worn. I believe she'd had it for fifty or sixty years. It was taken away from her when she made an application for some government program, and she was being asked to pay what were considerable dollars for her to get a new one. She felt that it was totally unfair.

Why would you have taken it away from her? Is it standard form that when something becomes battered and old that you want to replace it? If that's the case, though, why would you charge her for it?

Mr. Sabourin: If a person asks our department for a new certificate, we of course have to charge a fee for it, but if the person wishes to retain an old certificate, since a new certificate is being issued, we'll have to mark that it's cancelled. If someone wants to retain a certificate for sentimental reasons, such as that it has been signed by Hugh Faulkner or who knows who, we will allow the person to do that.

Ms Meredith: When I was speaking to this woman, she didn't have her old one or her new one. She had no proof of citizenship, and that concerned her as well as being asked to pay for something she already had.

I also had some concern about the over 1 million inquiries. Are these inquiries from outside Canada, people asking what it takes, or are they inquiries from people residing in our country who don't have citizenship?

Mr. Sabourin: They're from a combination of many sources, including other government departments that need to verify data on a person's citizenship status, persons who were born abroad many years ago and wish to confirm that they are indeed registered as Canadian citizens, people who have just filed an application for citizenship and wish to know whether it is in the process, and so on.

Ms Meredith: Okay, so it's all-encompassing. It seemed to me to be a large figure if somebody was just...

Mr. Sabourin: One last point I would make is that until we have the new citizenship registration system in place, there are several local offices that have no alternative but to call the main case processing centre to find out about a certain file, because they have no on-line access to the computer database. It'll be solved by November or December.

Ms Meredith: Thank you.

Just to leave this committee on a higher note, in your considerations for the legislation we will be looking at, hopefully in the fall, are you dealing with dual citizenship? Is that something you're looking at?

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Ms Jaouich: It is certainly one of the issues that has been raised by the standing committee, and it is being looked at.

Ms Meredith: Thank you.

[Translation]

The Chair: Mr. Nunez, do you have any questions?

[English]

Mr. Nunez: You had the right to an answer.

[Translation]

About the campaign promoting Canadian citizenship - the book mentions it as did the minister during her latest appearance here - what are its objectives? Who is the clientele targeted and what are the costs and budgets by province?

Ms. Jaouich: Through the awareness campaign, we are trying to help all Canadians appreciate the advantages of immigration and the importance of citizenship because we all have citizenship. We've undertaken this campaign in very close co-operation with the Department of Canadian Heritage, who is our partner in this exercise, to make people aware of their rights and responsibilities as well as of the pride we should all have in our Canadian citizenship.

Mr. Nunez: How much does it cost?

Ms. Jaouich: If memory serves, last year's program...

Mr. Robertson: Last year, we spent about $250,000 on Citizenship Week and about the same amount for the other products we distributed. It adds up to roughly $500,000.

Mr. Nunez: Over one year?

Mr. Robertson: Over one financial year, yes.

Mr. Nunez: How many people who have the right to citizenship have not yet asked for it?

Mr. Sabourin: That's a question for which we have no absolute answer. As there has just been a census, that's a piece of information we hope to get from Statistics Canada within a year, once the data is available.

Mr. Nunez: I have put this very same question in the past without ever getting an answer. However, someone did tell me it was about one million people.

Mr. Sabourin: Based on the latest census data available from Statistics Canada, and by extrapolating based on the number of people who got their citizenship during the last ten years, it could be said that there are maybe between 600 000 and one million people residing in Canada who might meet the requirements for Canadian citizenship have not yet made that request.

Mr. Nunez: Why?

Mr. Sabourin: That's only a very rough estimate.

Mr. Nunez: Why don't they apply for citizenship?

Mr. Sabourin: Maybe we should do a survey.

Ms. Jaouich: Of course.

Mr. Nunez: I was asking that because it could be said, for example, that a lot of Italians don't apply for citizenship because they'd lose certain rights in Italy. That would be a logical and sensible answer. Do you not know why or do you simply not want to answer the question?

Mr. Sabourin: Let's say that we don't know the exact answer. What we do know, however, is the proportion of people who have requested and been granted citizenship in the past, as well as the country of their former allegiance. So we know that there is a high proportion of people from Asia, for example, who apply for citizenship while a lower proportion of people from the U.S.A. or Great Britain coming to Canada apply for citizenship. Trying to give a reason would be pure speculation on my part.

Mr. Nunez: So, if you eliminate dual citizenship, there would no doubt be even fewer people who would ask for Canadian citizenship because they would not want to lose their previous citizenship.

Now, the fees to be paid for Canadian citizenship are increasing each year. It's unbelievable! A lot of people complain to me and wonder why they have to pay so much money. Could you give us an explanation? Finally, are only the rich going to be able to become Canadian citizens?

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Ms. Jaouich: That's another question I'm going to have to ask you to be patient about and wait for my colleague. What I can say is that the fees paid by citizenship applicants don't meet the costs of the program.

Mr. Nunez: What percentage of the costs is covered? I was told the same thing about immigration. Today, immigration costs are set at $975 rather than $500. That's over 300 million dollars paid by the users who go to your department. Specifically concerning the citizenship program, could you tell me what amount is paid by the users?

Ms. Jaouich: I'll try to make sure that my colleague has the answer for you when he comes.

The Chair: Mr. Nunez, our researcher tells me that it's 87 per cent.

Mr. Nunez: Oh, fine!

The Chair: It's on page 13.

Mr. Nunez: Thank you very much. Thank goodness we have a good researcher especially when members don't read their documents.

The Chair: Your time is up. I'll let Ms. Meredith put the last question and we'll adjourn.

[English]

Ms Meredith: Thank you, Madam Chair.

I want to deal with these. Actually I quite like them, but are they to reach the Canadian population or the landed population who have already integrated, or are they to reach new immigrants who are coming in and are struggling to resettle in a new country? If they are, are they translated into a language outside English and French that they could understand?

Mr. Robertson: Are we talking specifically about New Friends?

Ms Meredith: No. There was New Friends and there was something about being a new Canadian. There were three or four of these brochures.

Mr. Robertson: The products with respect to public education are available in one of the two official languages. We do have other products, I believe, involved in the immigration process - for example, at our posts abroad as well as in Canada - available in other languages. But as regards public education, they're available in English and French.

To answer the first part of your question, to whom they are targeted, it depends on the product, although lately we have targeted youth in particular, basically those in junior high and high school, because our sense and market surveys tell us that this is a population at risk. They also reach a broader audience, because they take them home to their parents. They are integrated into the school system throughout. That's how we've approached it.

Ms Meredith: At that level of education, the children probably speak either English or French. The other one, I understand, was more directed to the adult population.

Mr. Robertson: With the first one, Canadian by Choice, which we distributed through doctors' and dentists' offices, the feeling was that you get the full range of the population, but particularly -

Ms Meredith: Are they translated?

Mr. Robertson: No, they're in English and French.

Ms Meredith: So of what value would it be to a newcomer from, say, India, China, Yugoslavia, or Italy who didn't speak or read English that well and still needed to be encouraged that they made the right decision, that their level of frustration would decrease? It seems to me that if you really want to reach out to the people who are struggling to integrate, maybe translation would be more appropriate than just putting it into English.

Mr. Robertson: Or French.

Ms Jaouich: If I may, Madam Chair, we have a number of publications translated into a number of languages. One of the objectives of having put citizenship and settlement under one operation, which is integration, is to review the documentation that was being prepared on one side for citizenship preparation and on the other for settlement for newcomers.

We will be reviewing, over the next few months, all the documentation to see whether we can consolidate and have one set that could be useful for both. We'll be looking at translation at the same time.

Ms Meredith: That makes sense. Thank you.

The Chair: I had a question before you started on the publication. Is the settlement renewal program under your jurisdiction, or is it under the jurisdiction of another department?

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Ms Jaouich: It's joint. It's in my area and another area. I think I'm scheduled tomorrow to come back here on settlement -

The Chair: Okay, so we'll leave it. Unfortunately I won't be here tomorrow, but my question is not really for an answer. I just want to insist on the fact that this committee has done a lot of work in that area and produced a document that I feel should be taken into consideration when you are getting into the consultations with the non-governmental agencies. That was really what I wanted to say.

I want to thank everyone for being before us today: Agnès Jaouich - and I hope I didn't mispronounce it - Mr. Robertson, and Mr. Sabourin. Merci beaucoup.

Thank you, everyone. We meet again tomorrow, in this room, at 3:30 p.m.

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