[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]
Tuesday, March 26, 1996
.1100 
[Translation]
The Chairman: Order please. It's 11 a.m. I'd like to introduce Mr. Roger Collet, Assistant Deputy Minister for Citizenship and Canadian Identity at Heritage Canada, and
[English]
Sean Berrigan, who is director general of strategic planning and policy coordination.
I don't know how you want to split your time, but we'll say about 20 minutes for your total presentation, to allow a lot of time for questions.
Mr. Roger Collet (Assistant Deputy Minister, Citizenship and Canadian Identity, Department of Canadian Heritage): That's fine with me, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman: Do proceed, Mr. Collet.
[Translation]
Mr. Collet: Good morning, Mr. Chairman. I'm happy to be here today to introduce the Citizenship and Canadian Identity sector at Heritage Canada.
[English]
Last week, or a week and a half ago, when the deputy was here, she indicated the general structure of the department. I will not go through this. I will immediately proceed to the presentation of the sector I manage. You have in front of you the deck that was prepared. I will refer to it en passant during a period of 20 or 25 minutes and then try to answer questions.
The mandate of the sector is to provide Canadians with the means to deepen their knowledge of and pride in their country, to enhance the ability of all Canadians to participate in and contribute to Canadian life, and to help foster social cohesion, mutual respect, and a shared sense of identity.
You have 260 employees, and the total amount of grants and contributions for the sector is $346 million.
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The first item I will deal with within the structure of the department is the official languages sector.
[Translation]
Official Languages Support Program: The mandate of this branch of the sector is to foster the development of official language minority communities, to bring English- and French-speaking Canadians closer together and to support the Official Languages Act and the reality of official bilingualism in this country. We have a 191 million dollar budget for transfers to provincial governments and another 44 million dollars going directly to official languages communities, but I'll get back to that.
First, I'd like to say a word about the support program for official language communities. This program helps represent official language groups, anglophones in Quebec and francophones outside Quebec, with their work in the areas of coordination, concentration and representation in different instances. We establish biannual Canada-community agreements, and I'll get back to that later if you don't mind. It's a new formula and we prefer it to annual subsidies granted on a project basis. The groups have a lot less coordinating and managing work to do and this system allows them to do better long-term planning.
This is a community support program encouraging pluriannual agreements over three, four or five years with community representatives, usually at the provincial level. The idea is to facilitate their planning and management of the funds they are granted.
The second part of this activity is interdepartmental coordination.
[English]
The purpose of this program is to encourage the departments and agencies of the federal government to respect sections 41 and 42 of the Official Languages Act, which state that the federal government assumes responsibility for promoting the development of the official languages communities.
If there are questions, Mr. Chairman, I'll gladly give more details.
The Chairman: We'll carry on with the questions afterwards.
[Translation]
Mr. Collet: The special initiatives fund is a program set up a year ago at the request of the minister of the day with a view to encouraging provincial communities to set up plans for self-funding, amongst other things.
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This federal-provincial co-operation helps provincial governments fund the implementation of regular services in the areas of health, transport and so forth that they would like to offer to their minority official language community. We help the provinces plan and implement those services. Of course, we do not fund those services.
Within the context of this federal-provincial co-operation, there is also the support program for official languages in education. It's the most important one within the Official Languages Program. It helps support teaching of our first and second languages across the country through the different departments of education.
Set up in 1970, this program encourages specifically the learning of French, both as a first or second language, or English, as the case may be.
Promotion of linguistic duality: this program promotes the reality of linguistic duality in Canada. For example, through this program we fund organizations like Canadian Parents for French and other associations that encourage the appreciation of our linguistic duality.
We also have a program to support the volunteer sector, the Canadian Red Cross, for example, in trying to bilingualize their services, annual meetings and correspondence. That program is there to help them.
In the area of justice, we have set up catch-up programs to help provinces like Saskatchewan, Manitoba or Ontario which, at a given point in time, decided to offer better legal service in translation, for example, or we provide help with staff training.
We have an official languages monitors program to help young university students to work as monitors in the schools in the community where they are studying. There is also a small bursary program.
These last two programs are managed by the provincial departments of education through the Canadian Council of Ministers of Education.
[English]
We move on, therefore, to Sport Canada. In the sector, we have official languages, Sport Canada and citizenship and community participation.
With Sport Canada, the mandate is to support the achievement of high performance and athletic excellence through fair and ethical means. I want to insist on this. It is not medals at all costs, but working with key partners to sustain the development of a Canadian sports system.
We have two main focuses here, Mr. Chairman: sport policy development and sport programs. The budget is $48 million.
The sport policy development is to develop public policy ensuring that the long-term viability of sport and sustainability of sport exists. One of the main functions is to establish an appropriate policy framework under which national sports organizations, voluntary organizations, and athletes who are involved in the area of amateur sport know how to connect and look for the planning of their development, including coaching.
Also, there's the need to establish a policy framework with provincial governments. That's because, in this area, the responsibility is clearly spelled out between the municipal, provincial and federal areas of involvement. We have to ensure that it all fits within a general policy framework.
The policy priorities, as established by the minister, are athletes and their programs, directing funding to athletes.
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The second is coaching and the coaching process. We have a direct impact on the coaching process all the way down the organization to the municipal level, because we have only one coaching program for the different disciplines.
We have the delivery of high-performance services to athletes through the national sports organizations, and we fund some 30 sport organizations across the country.
Finally, there are the priority areas of the federal government in the area of access to the traditionally underrepresented groups: women, athletes with disabilities, and aboriginal athletes.
That was on policy.
Under the sport program, the financial support that we provide to the Canadian high-performance athletes, we have direct funding to athletes. We fund some 1,050 athletes of high performance through a stipend, which was increased by 25% at the beginning of the current fiscal year.
We have funding for 37 national sports organizations. It is through those organizations that we fund the development of sport. They do this on our behalf.
There is funding of 11 multi-sport and multi-service organizations and 10 disabled sport organizations.
We also fund development across the country. We develop multi-sport centres across the country, usually tied into the holding of special events, such as the Pan-American Games, the Commonwealth Games, or the Olympic Games.
Finally, there is assistance to the Canada Games, the major games, which include all the ones I have mentioned.
We provide funding to those events as they show up, as well as the implementation of the policy framework for the bidding for those games. The major games are the Olympics, the Pan-American Games, the Commonwealth Games, the International University Games,
[Translation]
and the Jeux de la francophonie.
[English]
Citizens' participation and multiculturalism is the other branch within the sector. The activity is to support activities relating to Canadians' shared sense of identity and their full participation in the social, political, economic, and cultural life of their country.
In that area we have four programs: multiculturalism, native citizens, human rights, and Canadian identity. The total budget for this sector is $61 million.
Under multiculturalism the aim and the objective is to give value to our diversity as an integral part of Canadian identity, to assist in the integration of first-generation Canadians, to assist institutions to become more accessible and responsive to all Canadians, and to encourage harmonious inter-group and race relations.
As it exists at present, the program has four components: race relations and cross-cultural understanding, the multiculturalism secretariat, heritage cultures, and community support and participation. However, the previous Secretary of State had asked us to review our programs, which is normal after a five-year period. We've done a total evaluation of the program, and the current Secretary of State, who has full delegation for this program, will shortly be approving some readjustment and realignment of the multiculturalism program, based on the information and evaluation that we have received through the evaluation process and the consultation that took place across the country during last summer and last fall.
Native citizens is a program that has major activities in funding the 99 friendship centres that are scattered around the country. These are institutions that are situated in off-reserve urban and semi-urban areas across the country. The concept behind it was to ensure, some 19, 20 years ago, when the program was developed, un endroit de rassemblement for native citizens who move off reserve and find themselves in urban areas where they receive their services. We fund the basic funding for those organizations - just the core funding they have. Some of those organizations are large organizations that receive and provide services for other federal departments, and for provincial governments, and they do this on a fee-for-service basis.
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We have as well the aboriginal representative organizations. Here again, those include only representative organizations of native organizations off reserve. The funding to organizations that represent the interests of native citizens living on reserves is the responsibility of DIAND. So these are the Métis, the Inuit, and the off-reserve organizations.
We provide an aboriginal women's program, because this has been a priority area over the years, and also Northern Native Broadcast Access, which is support to production services and training for some 18 organizations in the north and mid-north of Canada. Those are broadcasting and productions in the native languages.
We also have two agreements, one with the Yukon and one with the Northwest Territories, for aboriginal languages.
[Translation]
Human rights: it's a small program with a budget of some $800,000 putting the accent on the development, understanding, respect and enjoyment of human rights. This is educational and informational work done in co-operation with provincial governments through a standing committee that is a federal-provincial organization.
We're also the organization used by the Justice and Foreign Affairs departments to undertake coordination and consultation with the provincial governments in preparing instruments for the United Nations.
Within that program we also have the Court Challenges Program this government resuscitated two years ago.
[English]
Canadian identity. This is the area that encourages a greater dialogue amongst Canadians and active civic participation. It fosters a sense of pride and belonging. We do this via the promotion of Canadian symbols. I have here an example of the kit that is prepared. It gives the history of the Canadian symbols and how you utilize them. It's very popular in schools across the country.
Ceremonial is responsibility for any visits or activities of the royal family, such as the visit of Prince Charles in the next few weeks. Protocol is responsibilities for the Governor General and the lieutenant governors in each of the provinces.
Canadian studies and youth. Canadian studies is a small program that provides support to institutions, universities, individuals, corporations, that want to invest in research into Canadian history related to Canadian identity or the development of tools for information purposes. The program provides funding at a 25% maximum of contributions. In any projects we support under this we're always the minority funder.
Some of those consortiums, as I said, are universities. Some of them are projects of $500,000, and we contribute $25,000. The rest are companies and public or para-public organizations that fund the remainder of the project.
.1125
The voluntary action program is a program to support the voluntary sector, especially in this day and age of retrenchment in many areas of the municipal, provincial, and federal levels, of some of the public services. The development of a coordinated policy framework and alliance to be able to develop the voluntary action context is important, as well as to provide some incentives for the voluntary sector to participate in the support of activities for the common good.
Finally in the area of policy coordination, we have the strategic planning sector, which does the environmental studies, the research, and also does the coordination of our planning processes from year to year. Using social trends, using the consultations we have with community groups, we build and adjust our programs from year to year.
Mr. Chairman, I've gone through the deck. I have here another cut, if the committee is interested, for what we attempt to do not from a financial point of view but from the point of view of some of our objectives. I may go through them. I have copies if it's your preference. It's entirely up to you.
The Chairman: If we could have the copies.... I think we'll leave the rest of the time for the questions.
[Translation]
Last week, I was in error. During the first round of questioning we give each party ten minutes and we start with the Official Opposition followed by the Reform Party and the Liberals; for the second round, five minutes are given each member asking for the floor, in the order requests are received.
Mr. Leroux (Richmond - Wolfe): Welcome, Mr. Collet and Mr. Berrigan. I'll go immediately to a Canadian Identity item, the support to voluntary organizations. You reiterate your will to stress the importance of volunteers and support to organizations. In the same breath, you mention the State withdrawing from these activities, and you're right.
Part III of the Estimates shows clearly that between 1992-93 and now, we've gone from 1 million dollars to $27,000. Such a staggering commitment!
I wonder, Mr. Collet - we've seen this with the rather difficult cuts to the Institut canadien d'éducation des adultes - how these organizations, in a democracy, can keep on making representations to the government about the policies affecting them. Those means have often been useful to them to gain access to government and point out the problems affecting them.
In eliminating all that, what we have left are only those who have funds to make those representations. With a view to democracy and support to different organizations, aren't we depriving those organizations of a means - good for both the government and the organizations - of having some influence and explaining how their work has been affected?
Mr. Collet: First of all, Mr. Leroux, the government is still supporting a whole range or organizations in just about all areas of our communities; in fact, it has even been decided to make sure there is no decrease in some areas because it felt that was important. Whether in the area of official languages, native groups, cultural communities, sports or student participation, we're already supporting a range of organizations.
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The volunteer support program was a small one that we wanted to renew and redirect; we think it's important to find - and that's the wish of many organizations - means for those organizations to become a bit more independent and self-sufficient, precisely to allow them to better express their views and interests.
One of the ways of doing this is to make sure we have a framework that will encourage those people to see other possibilities, whether in the area of training or incentives which would encourage the private sector to contribute to some of their work. That's what we are proposing to our minister right now.
That comment was also part of Mr. Martin's budget two or three weeks ago: a review of this whole question to find balance and possibilities of ensuring continuity through the use of other sources of funding together with an element encouraging public participation.
Mr. Leroux: I understand, but I'm not comforted by what you've just told us because that means they lose their independence. It's not the organization as such but whomever the torch is being passed to for financial support who will shape its direction and its issues. I always wonder how they'll manage to keep their independence and the possibility of making representations to the government and give their opinion without being dependent on both the government and another source of funds.
We're going from $1 million to $27,000. That's the impact of restrictions, of course. I wonder what sectors are going to be affected, especially in Quebec, because you say that there are some - you haven't named them - you'd rather keep more than others.Do you have any examples?
Mr. Collet: Does that question apply to all our programs in the sector?
Mr. Leroux: Particularly to volunteer organizations.
Mr. Collet: The voluntary organizations program doesn't exist any more. It was a program of...
Mr. Leroux: Two hundred thousand dollars.
Mr. Collet: Yes, but I'm going back a bit. It was $200,000 I think, or even less. As for the organizations not being funded any more, there were two adult education associations - I forget their names - one in Quebec and the other one in Ontario for English Canada.
Mr. Leroux: Thank you, Mr. Collet. In the tools it produced for Canadian identity, Heritage Canada had a promotional campaign in theatres and television with little shorts called Heritage Canada. I'd like to know exactly when that campaign began, how much it cost a year, what the sources of funding were and how the funding was shared out.
Mr. Collet: The Heritage Canada program called Canadian Heritage Minutes, got going at least four or five years ago in co-operation with the Bronfman Foundation that took the initiative for doing the research. In the beginning, we funded certain pilot projects. The program was a success to a point judging by the public's reaction; we continued developing it as long as there were funds from the private and public sector and, in this case, from the federal government.
.1135
Two and a half years ago, we decided to ask other federal departments to contribute because there was considerable demand both for those minutes and other activities of the Bronfman company: the fairs and the development of educational materials used in schools.
That's when we established a consortium to which all federal departments contributed; we pool everything and it becomes a partnership between the Bronfman company and ourselves. The company invests funds of its own and gets more from the private sector.
Mr. Leroux: Let's dig a little. First, there were $2.4 million from the official languages budget and now you're talking about a consortium. Which were the other departments and what was the contribution of each one of them and the Bronfmans? Are these discretionary funds?
Mr. Collet: The Department of Human Resources Development, Citizenship and Immigration, Veterans Affairs, Foreign Affairs. I'm forgetting two or three but I could get the names for you.
Mr. Leroux: I'd like to have them, as well as the details of the amounts provided.
Mr. Collet: In general terms, the funding is roughly fifty-fifty.
Mr. Leroux: Official languages put $2.4 million into it.
Mr. Collet: Yes, within the context of promoting linguistic duality.
Mr. Leroux: We add the contributions of each department and Bronfman contributes 50%, dollar for dollar for the overall amount?
Mr. Collet: Yes.
Mr. Leroux: That's one of the criteria?
Mr. Collet: Yes.
Mr. Leroux: That's $2.4 million plus departmental contributions and Bronfman doubles that up. They provide matching funds.
Mr. Collet: That's it.
The Chairman: We can go to Mr. Abbott. We'll get back to you later. We'll still have lots of time.
Mr. Leroux: I only aim to follow the rules.
[English]
The Chairman: Mr. Abbott.
Mr. Abbott (Kootenay East): Thank you. I would like to keep my questions short. If we have short answers too, we can get through a lot of information.
I would be curious to know if there is any connection between the funding for Northern Native Broadcast and any help or access relative to the CBC. Is there any crossover between Northern Native Broadcast and the CBC?
Mr. Collet: If I understand your question...there is some complementarity in certain areas, in the utilization of some of the equipment in the transponder system. The communications societies do the productions because they are planned and done by native citizens, and usually in native languages.
Mr. Abbott: I was just curious, with the cutbacks at CBC, to know if a bit of the funding could be dribbled back into the CBC through this program.
Mr. Collet: In certain areas of the north, to be specific, there are areas where we share some of the physical plant.
Mr. Abbott: For Sport Canada, contributions 1996-97, you have $48.824 million. I'm sorry, I don't have the number for 1995-96. Very roughly, what were the contributions in 1995-96?
Mr. Collet: That's a year ago.
Mr. Abbott: Yes.
Mr. Collet: They were $51.5 million. That's total.
Mr. Abbott: I understand that.
Included in the $51.5 million was $71,000 for lacrosse, which had been cut 60% from the previous year because it didn't fall under the new sports funding criteria and it wasn't either Olympic or international. In 1996-97 it was supposed to go to zero, but I see the minister today has suddenly found $150,000. Assuming the $51.5 million is not going to increase in this current fiscal year, 1995-96, where would she have found this $150,000?
Mr. Collet: As a matter of fact, to be specific, not only is the $51 million not going to increase, but we have less money.
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The funding to lacrosse, because of the fact that lacrosse is the summer national sport, and the funding the minister has announced yesterday I believe or the day before is funding to the institute, which is research and development on the contribution of lacrosse and its part in the identity and history of Canada. It is not funded under the amateur sport funding program.
Mr. Abbott: So lacrosse will already have received or was budgeted to receive $71,000. It will still be receiving the $71,000.
Mr. Collet: No.
Mr. Abbott: It will not still be receiving the $71,000?
Mr. Collet: It was one-year funding.
Mr. Abbott: For 1995-96, of $71,000.
Mr. Collet: Yes.
Mr. Abbott: So they will have received it?
Mr. Collet: No. They were due to receive nothing this year.
Mr. Abbott: In 1996-97 they were due to receive nothing.
Mr. Collet: Yes.
Mr. Abbott: I'm sorry. I'm referring to the current year, which is 1995-96.
Mr. Collet: Oh, I'm sorry. Yes.
Mr. Abbott: So in addition to the $71,000 they will have received $150,000. Can you tell me which pocket that came out of?
Mr. Collet: It came out of our Canadian identity program.
Mr. Abbott: Thank you. Now on to the flags.
I noted in your comments about Canadian identity that you, the department, are 25% maximum, always a minority funder. Yet the minister has said she's going to go ahead and fund up to $6 million. So is she breaking the rule you just gave us?
Mr. Collet: Pardon me?
Mr. Abbott: You said 25% maximum is what your department would fund. You're always the minority funder and yet she has arbitrarily said on the flag program that she is going to spend up to $6 million, whether she gets corporate backing, corporate funding, or not. Is she basically walking around that rule?
Mr. Collet: No. What I meant when I said a while ago - I was referring to the Canadian studies program, under identity, which is always a minority funder of 25% - études canadiennes; Canadian studies, not Canadian identity program.
Mr. Abbott: Canadian studies is 25%.
Mr. Collet: Yes.
Mr. Abbott: Do you have any idea how many dollars have been spent on the 800-number so far for the flag program?
Mr. Collet: In terms of...?
Mr. Abbott: 1-800, fly a flag, or whatever it's called.
Mr. Collet: Are you referring to how much money to set it up and manage it?
Mr. Abbott: Yes. How many dollars have been spent to this point?
Mr. Collet: The installation, the computers, to ensure follow-up, and so on are in the vicinity of about $125,000, $130,000, I think, because you have to pay up-front installations.
Mr. Abbott: How much is budgeted on a monthly basis? Do you know that?
Mr. Collet: We're in the process of preparing that, sir.
Mr. Abbott: What I'm curious about is, it seems to me.... For example, do you have any idea how many dollars have been spent on flags so far? In other words, it seems to me this is an idea that has gone ahead without a budget having been formulated. Is that a correct impression on my part? It was a good idea and so let's go with it?
Mr. Collet: No. We've always had a budget for the purchase and distribution of flags. We've always had as part of this sector, part of the identity and promotion of Canadian symbols, an activity that is, as I said earlier, the development of kits and the promotion of symbols, which includes the flag.
Our minister has indicated clearly that this is an area where we should place a greater priority, based on demands from the public, and we should set up a system to make sure this happens so we don't just say, yes, we should promote it. So she said we're going to do it and we're going to do it this way. The response has been overwhelming, and therefore we have to organize ourselves to make sure we can live up to this commitment.
Mr. Abbott: Do you have any idea what the budget for purchase and distribution would be? I'm talking now about the fiscal year we're currently in, 1995-96. In other words, what was the original size of the pot that the purchase and distribution of this flag program is coming out of?
Mr. Collet: I would have to check that out to be sure because it goes into general purchasing. I could find out and be specific.
Mr. Abbott: I'd appreciate that very much.
Mr. Collet: I wouldn't want to take the chance of giving you the wrong number.
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Mr. Abbott: I'm not trying to tie you down here, but are we talking $300 million, $30 million, $3 million, $300,000? What range are we talking about for that budget?
Mr. Collet: Normal purchase depends on what we have on stock and the different activities every year, on whether or not we have special events. We spent much more money, sir, as you would appreciate, on the last year because of February 15 being declared the anniversary date of the flag and so on.
So it varies on the demands, but the budgets were certainly not in the magnitude of $30 million.
Mr. Abbott: What I am asking, though, is that this would come under promotion of Canadian symbols, presumably?
Mr. Collet: Yes.
Mr. Abbott: There must be a budget for the big package of promotion of Canadian symbols.
Mr. Collet: Yes.
Mr. Abbott: Now, if we're going to be going into a $6-million flag program where we're giving away the flags, then that $6 million wasn't originally planned for, but it's going to have to come out of this big piece of pie. How many millions of dollars would that big piece of pie be, approximately?
Mr. Collet: We're looking - and our minister has been asked to do this - to reallocate from within the sector and the department.
Mr. Abbott: My question then is what is being short-changed with that reallocation?
Mr. Collet: I am hesitant because the minister is in the process of making decisions to that effect, and I think out of respect, Mr. Chairman, I wouldn't want to delve into ministerial prerogatives.
The Chairman: The minister will appear before us shortly, so maybe you can reserve that question for him.
Mr. Abbott: That's fine.
In the remaining time I want to go on the record as saying that it seems to me on this, as on many other issues, that the minister seems to be grabbing at this and grabbing at that. It doesn't seem to me that she has any kind of organization, any kind of a plan.
The flag idea is a good idea so she's going to go with that and something else is going to get short-changed. I don't get any idea that there's any real organization in terms of dollars.
The Chairman: I don't think this is something for Mr. Collet to comment on.
Mr. Abbott: I appreciate that.
Mr. Collet: Mr. Chairman, I want to clarify one thing. I did not say that the promotion of the flag as a Canadian symbol is something new. It's always been part of the program and it varies from time to time. It was part of the suggestions that have been made for many years, and it is simply something that we are increasing based on popular demand, based on recent events. I did not say that it was ad hoc. I want to make this clear.
Mr. Abbott: No, you didn't; I did. Thank you.
The Chairman: Thanks very much, Mr. Abbott.
Mr. Peric.
Mr. Peric (Cambridge): Mr. Collet, let's go back to citizens' participation and multiculturalism. The mandate is to support activities relating to Canadians' shared sense of identity and their full participation in the social, political, economic and cultural life of their country. Which country?
Mr. Collet: Canada.
Mr. Peric: Canada. Why didn't you mention that?
What's the total budget? You mention here that grants and contributions are $61 million. Is that the total budget of the multicultural department?
Mr. Collet: No, that's the total budget of the sector. The multiculturalism budget is $18.6 million.
Mr. Peric: How many multicultural centres do we have right across the country?
Mr. Collet: There must be quite a few. I am not sure. We don't fund them all so I am not even aware of all of them. If you mean multicultural centres, there are a series in Toronto. We have multicultural centres all over the place.
Mr. Peric: So they are funded from this $18.6 million?
Mr. Collet: No, we don't fund multicultural centres.
Mr. Peric: Who does?
Mr. Collet: The provincial governments, private sector funding, different sources. We don't fund them.
I don't want a lack of precision here, but from time to time, if a multicultural centre comes to us with a specific project, for instance, on race relations, we may fund that project, but we don't fund the centres per se.
Mr. Peric: How do you promote this? How do they participate? To what institutions?
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Mr. Collet: I take your comment in terms of.... Of course, we mean Canada.
This is what we try to do in multiculturalism. First, we find that immigrants ought to feel at home and that they are part of a project that is Canadian. It's the Canadian concept and the Canadian identity.
Second, we find that studies have shown that these people need to feel that they are accepted within a local community, and also that they can all participate at the different levels. They will have equal access at the different levels of the communities. Therefore, they are not faced with prejudice and impediments to their participation.
We provide some funding to organizations that support the integration of new Canadians into Canadian society.
Mr. Peric: Could you name the organizations?
Mr. Collet: I could provide you with a complete list. We have a series of immigrant.... Usually they're called the Metropolitan Toronto Immigrant Association or the Winnipeg.... I forget the name.
I could provide you with all the details of those organizations. You also have women immigrant organizations and so on. We provide some support to those organizations based on projects.
We then provide support to inter-group activities in the area of developing the receptivity and acceptance of multiculturalism in their organizations. Then we provide funding in that sense to groups that include Irish, German, Polish and Ukrainian organizations.
We have provided more and more funding, as of the last few years, in the area of institutions that must adapt to precisely make sure that Canadians of all origins have access to the institutions, i.e. hospitals. We've had big projects with hospitals in the Montreal and Toronto areas on a pilot basis. We support, with the staff, the development of sensitivity and adaptation, starting with language and others, so that people who arrive in those institutions feel that the staff and the environment permit them equal access.
We also do a lot of work with the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police, which has its head office in Ottawa. For instance, there was a report in the last few days on the work that was done with the Montreal metropolitan police organization in the last three or four years. It was done through some of those programs.
Mr. Peric: So that comes out of this $61 million.
Mr. Collet: No, it comes out of the $18 million.
Mr. Peric: And you spent $61 million on grants and contributions.
Mr. Collet: Yes, but the other sectors under these areas are native citizens, which is $33 million; human rights, which includes the court challenges program, and which is $4.5 million; and identity, which is $4 million.
Mr. Peric: How many people are working in that particular part?
Mr. Collet: Which one?
Mr. Peric: Citizenship and multiculturalism.
Mr. Collet: They're all in one branch, so there's a staff in that area of between 60 and 80 people.
Mr. Peric: Between 60 and 80.
Mr. Collet: Somewhere in there. This is one branch, so some of those staff also do some work with native programs, human rights and others. But I'm trying to give you a sense. It's about 60, or something like that.
Mr. Peric: Thank you.
The Chairman: The Liberal side still has about three minutes left. Mr. O'Brien, if you want to complete this....
Mr. O'Brien (London - Middlesex): Mr. Chairman, thank you.
Mr. Collet, thank you for your presentation. I want to go to a question on the private sector funding of amateur sport in Canada. As government has to cut back on such funding, I wonder what the game plan is by government, by your department, to encourage the private sector to pick up the ball more, particularly given the pressure, which I support, not to have tobacco companies funding such events.
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Mr. Collet: The first step we undertook, sir, was to establish clearly what our priorities as a federal government were and to clarify them with our partners, which are the provincial governments and the municipal governments. That has been done in the sport funding and accountability framework. At least it's clear where we place our priorities, so there's no duplication.
Secondly, we've developed a business plan for amateur sport for the coming years. It has been presented to our minister first, and to the provincial governments. As a matter of fact, our director general is in Toronto today, meeting with the provincial governments on that very issue.
The idea - we used the words ``business plan'' - is to develop a plan for who's going to do what in terms of what is already existing at the different levels, and how we are going to organize ourselves to build the necessary cooperation and alliances for the future on how we're going to fund this, in terms of the public at large, in terms of support from the professional sport organizations for amateur sport. Amateur sports are often the training grounds for the professional organizations.
So this is being discussed. The minister has also established an advisory committee on corporate support for sport. The chairman is Mr. Adam Zimmerman, who with a series of business individuals, athletes, and professional sports representatives, the Canadian Olympic Association, retired athletes, as I said, coaching.... But the membership of the committee is largely business, across the country.
Once you have the plan, how do we develop advice to the government on how to develop a system to ensure we get this shortage of funding from the public at large, using different alliances, different cooperations, and of course different connections and networks that exist within the business world? The first meeting was about a month ago. The second meeting is in mid-April. The minister is meeting with Mr. Zimmerman this evening in Toronto.
Mr. O'Brien: You mentioned the business plan for amateur.... Is that available?
Mr. Collet: Yes, we can make it available now. At first, sir, it was not, because the minister had to approve it, and out of courtesy we also wanted to present it to our provincial colleagues. But sure, it could be made available.
Mr. O'Brien: Could I get a copy of that, please?
Mr. Collet: No sweat.
The Chairman: Could you send copies to the members?
Mr. Collet: Absolutely.
The Chairman: Thank you.
[Translation]
Ms Gagnon.
Ms Gagnon (Québec): I'd like to get back to the multiculturalism policy. A lot of people in Canada and Quebec have expressed doubts as to the possibility of attaining the objectives set out here. When I look at them closely, the objectives seem rather contradictory.
It says to give value to our diversity. I think that in a multiculturalism policy, when we talk about diversity, you're dealing with several cultures. Within a culture or a country there are many facets. So I don't think we can attain that objective by institutionalizing programs or letting groups speak about their own culture. Canadian culture covers many realities and has many facets. It includes the Quebec culture, the English-Canadian culture and also the French-Canadian culture. There are also the natives.
On the contrary, I think that assisting in the integration of Canadians is a second item. I don't think that with this policy... Anyway, a lot of people specializing in integration have come out against this policy in the case of the integration of first generation Canadians.
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It's also supposed to encourage harmonious inter-group relations. This policy is seen as building ghettos for the different ethnic groups, not as a real policy of integration. This policy is detrimental to integration into the mainstream of society. I think it provides a rather unclear view of the whole thing.
You said before you held a round of consultations. Did your department do it? You said something about a report coming out of that and you mentioned the minister intended changing a few aspects of the policy. Could you say a few words about the report? Was this report circulated?
Mr. Collet: First, I'd like to clarify a point. The goal of the program is not and never was to build ghettos. On the contrary! A good proportion of our program funding in the area of relations and communities happens in Quebec within Quebec's planning for its own social development which is, an actual fact, an excellent framework for the cultural communities program. In our department, we contribute directly to many cost-shared programs.
As for supporting diversity, that is the feeling... There's a difference between supporting diversity so it becomes an element separating people and explaining to each and every person making up this country that the country recognizes diversity both geographic and physical as well as that of its population and its origin. Without making this into an element of separation, it can be encouraged when you consider planning for the country as a whole. We could give you many examples.
To get back to your question, the normal process within the federal government is to do an evaluation after a certain number of years. That's what was done and the evaluation was given to our minister, Ms Fry. Once she's reviewed it, it goes without saying that the report and the results of the consultation will become available.
Ms Gagnon: One brief question. Concerning the support given to different groups, I've been told some groups were viewed more favourably, because they were better organized, than groups who were there well before them. There's a bit of discrimination in the budget envelopes allocated to some groups. Some are a lot more equal than others.
Mr. Collet: First of all, Madam, during the last three or four years the funding for individual groups has been gradually decreasing and is now practically nonexistent. So that's not the case. I don't know what it was 10 or 15 years ago.
All our funding now goes to integration projects of specific communities within Canadian society or race relations projects or to the institutions awareness project. It could go to banks; we have on-going projects with the Royal Bank and the Bank of Montreal. We also have a project in one of the Montreal banks on the whole question of awareness in services to cultural communities, to use the Quebec expression.
Funding is tending more to that direction and in the direction of race relations, whether through organizations specifically set up and recognized to that end or through campaigns like last week's, the anti-racism campaign.
[English]
The Chairman: Moving up, Mr. Abbott.
Mr. Abbott: Thank you. Just touching back for my own information on my question on lacrosse, you said the $150,000 came out of Canadian identity. Is that noted under that title in the budgets from last year? In the estimates from last year? Would I look for it under Canadian identity to see what the grand total is?
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Mr. Collet: It would come from within the $61 million, that sector, the total sector.
Mr. Abbott: If you will go to your page on citizens' participation in multiculturalism - multiculturalism, native citizens, human rights, Canadian identity - would I find a line in the spending estimates called ``Canadian identity''? Would I be able to identify the funds for Canadian identity in the spending estimates from last year?
Mr. Collet: The line items that you have are Canada Day -
Mr. Abbott: To save time, could you give me -
Mr. Collet: - Canadian studies, youth participation, and voluntary action.
Mr. Abbott: What is the page in the book on that?
Mr. Collet: Page 317, in the blue.
Mr. Abbott: My colleague was asking about multicultural organizations, and you're talking about there being 60 to 80 people involved in settlement. Are you aware of any other funds - now I'm talking about dollars and cents - that would be used under the Department of Citizenship and Immigration that would be going to much the same kind of activity?
Mr. Collet: In the old days there were. In the last two or three years the programs have been completely harmonized, and the responsibility for the settlement programs under immigration is totally theirs. We've moved out of any kind of activities that have to do with this.
Mr. Abbott: I'm sorry. When you say ``completely harmonized'', what does that mean?
Mr. Collet: We're just not involved in that area. It's fully the responsibility of the Department of Citizenship and Immigration.
Mr. Abbott: Then I must have misunderstood the dialogue. I'm not being adversarial here; I'm trying to understand. I must have misunderstood the dialogue, because I was under the impression that you were saying that the multicultural organizations that would be funded under Canadian Heritage were for the purpose of assisting in settlement. I'm not talking about -
Mr. Collet: I think I can help you.
Mr. Abbott: Good.
Mr. Collet: I was referring to integration within a given community. Settlement services are specifically for new immigrants when they arrive in Canada. They have some specific programs for those numbers of people just to get settled.
Mr. Abbott: And then your department picks up after that point?
Mr. Collet: We have responsibility. Through different voluntary organizations, the department tries to create the environment, within a given city or given cities or villages, for the integration into the Canadian plan, the Canadian way of life, the Canadian values, the Canadian identity. It's much larger -
Mr. Abbott: So yours is an extension of the fundamental settlement itself.
Is there any crossover or spillover of dollars from your department to the NCC relative to the various symbols and activities and events that are put on by the NCC in Ottawa?
Mr. Collet: Thank you for the question. There are none, because in the area of specific festivities the responsibility for the organization - precisely to ensure that there's no duplication.... For instance, the national Canada Day celebration on Parliament Hill is the responsibility of and is managed by the NCC. We contribute to it.
Mr. Abbott: So there is a small amount of spillover of funds from your department.
Mr. Collet: It is not a spillover of funds. It's joint funding.
It used to be that one part of the day was done by the federal government and part of the activities were done by NCC. The responsibilities have been clarified.
Because in the celebration, for instance, of Canada Day, on July 1, a lot of the noon activity is ceremonial in nature and the Governor General participates and so on, it's only normal that they ask if we are going to pay for this. We say yes, and they pay for the evening party.
Mr. Abbott: What would happen on Remembrance Day? Would that be your funds or the NCC funds; for example, in the ceremony at the cenotaph?
Mr. Collet: NCC.
Mr. Abbott: So your funds are not involved at all in that part of the ceremony.
The Chairman: Thank you, Mr. Abbott. Mr. Bélanger.
[Translation]
Mr. Bélanger (Ottawa - Vanier): First, when the minister sends out documents - for example, three members of the committee have asked for information - do all members of the committee get this?
The Chairman: Yes, absolutely. You got that, Mr. Collet?
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Mr. Bélanger: In that case, you'll allow me a comment. Not to offend, but it's one of my little quirks. In your presentation, at some point, in English, you used the words ``levels of government", ``niveaux de gouvernement". Could I encourage you to use the expression ``orders of government"? There is a mindset behind that which could be profitable.
During your exchange with Mr. Leroux on Canadian identity, did I understand you to say that there was a support program for volunteer organizations with only $27,000 left?
Mr. Collet: Yes.
Mr. Bélanger: Is there a level of funding that triggers the disappearance of a program when it's reached?
Mr. Collet: That's an excellent question and I thank you for allowing me to answer it. It's a small program. I'm going from the top of my head, but it seems to me that on my arrival at the department it was about $100,000, $150,000 or $160,000. During the first round of cuts, the two adult education groups' funding was decreased. However, there was some money left for a group called, I think, the Canadian Voluntary Association of Canada.
As we found that organization was the only intermediary allowing us to do work to build the volunteer action plan we were trying to develop, we decided to continue working with it, but as you can imagine, it's getting very little of our money. That's why we've kept on funding it to date.
Mr. Bélanger: I imagine the program will eventually disappear.
Mr. Collet: Yes, or be merged with something else.
Mr. Bélanger: That would be one less report.
Mr. Leroux: In 1992, it was a one-million-dollar program.
Mr. Bélanger: Administratively speaking, maybe that's not the thing to do with a $27,000 budget. Anyway, let's move along.
I apologize if I'm quoting him wrong, but in his speech to the Montreal anglophone community, the Premier of Quebec, I think, used the following phrase: ``Linguistic tolerance has crept up on us''. I'll have to check back to the original.
Anyway, concerning support for linguistic duality, how do we measure its impact, its progress and long-term objectives? I'd like you to tell us a bit about that program.
Mr. Collet: Support for linguistic duality?
Mr. Bélanger: Yes.
Mr. Collet: We try to set up programs that will explain the reality of our linguistic duality in this country and also promote it.
Then, we have to undertake this promotion with third parties. I've mentioned Canadian Parents for French and there are other organizations of that ilk that come to us from time to time saying they'd like to undertake similar projects.
You know, for years now, many commissioners for official languages have been saying that not enough work is being done with the population in general to promote our linguistic duality and make it known and appreciated. So we try to do this in all these ways. We try to take every opportunity to find partners who will help us promote it, make it known and appreciated and also do a little bit of research, as the case may be.
Mr. Bélanger: How do you measure progress, if there is any progress?
Mr. Collet: That's a good question.
Mr. Bélanger: Just that one?
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Mr. Collet: All the questions were good ones, Mr. Chairman.
For example, is it measured directly through the number of students or young anglophone Canadians enrolling in immersion classes? Is it measured through the number of francophones, in Quebec, who enroll in English classes? Is it measured by an estimate of the overall population now finding linguistic duality acceptable?
It's a series of factors which are, each and every one, an element.
Recently, we've seen some provinces show an appreciation in the context of economic development. More recently, we've had meetings with provincial governments like Manitoba's, where we held a federal-provincial meeting, three weeks or a month ago. Many provincial governments were saying: "In our case, having two languages and a bilingual population is an important economic factor and here's why. For example, in New Brunswick and Quebec, we've been advantaged by the possibility... Having a bilingual labour force has been useful".
That's another indication of development, improvement and better knowledge.
The Chairman: Mr. O'Brien.
[English]
Mr. O'Brien: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just one. I might suggest you could also measure this by the number of MPs, like me, who are trying to learn the other official language. That might be a bit of an indicator as well.
My question goes back to the interplay between Citizenship and Immigration and this department, Canadian Heritage. I have a sizeable immigrant population in my riding, as I suppose many of us do. They indicate the government could be doing more for one-stop shopping for them to learn about Canadian society and how to adjust to it and so on.
I think you mentioned Mr. Abbott's question in talking about general settlement being Citizenship and Immigration and integration into the local community being more your area. It seems to me, though, that people live in some place. They go to Montreal or they come to London, Ontario and this is where they have to integrate. What can we do to improve the situation? I hear my constituents say the government needs to do more in order to have better cooperation between the two departments, if you will.
I guess my question is this. How much interplay is there between the two departments and is there an attempt to improve how we serve immigrants so they adjust better and they become more knowledgeable about Canadian life?
Mr. Collet: We have already done a considerable amount in terms of cooperation. As a matter of fact, as a public servant I can tell you there are no grey areas of conflict, that's for sure.
Again, let me try to explain. One demonstration of this, for instance, was that the Department of Citizenship and Immigration celebrated its Citizenship Week in April every year and we were celebrating the number one Canadian identity symbol, the Canadian flag. It's a symbol of the times, with expenditures, in both cases. We asked, why don't we do it all in one week? It's the symbol. The people are not necessarily recent immigrants. Some of them who choose to become Canadian citizens have been immigrants for twenty years or whatever. Why don't we celebrate all of this at the same time?
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I think these are the signals of some of the work we're doing, sir, to try to make sure the message is the Canadian plan, the Canadian identity, the Canadian project. Our responsibilities of joint projects are ongoing. We have the continual participation of both departments in many of our sub-projects.
What more can we do? I think what has to be done - it's being led by the Department of Citizenship and Immigration - is the renewal of the Citizenship Act to express a more modern, adapted, forward-looking and positive image of the Canadian project. It's done by their department, but we then start using the content and that kind of impetus to carry on with our regular, ongoing identity proposal. So one set of material is continually used with the other.
For instance, someone earlier was asking about the Heritage minutes. They're big partners of ours precisely for that reason. We have a complementary role. That's what we do on a continuing basis.
We could have other ideas of what ought to be done, but -
Mr. O'Brien: Thank you. I appreciate that.
The Chairman: Mr. Leroux.
[Translation]
Mr. Leroux: Earlier on, Mr. Bélanger, you asked how one could determine if the programs had attained their objectives and so on. Unfortunately, that's a big problem for government overall because in your government's first budget, they almost totally eliminated the budget for departmental program evaluation. So we can't really know if objectives were attained or not.
Mr. Collet, I have a question for you that we put to Mr. Dupuy the last time he came before us. We asked him to give us the amount of funding granted by the government to the Council for Canadian Unity between 1991 and 1995. I don't know if it got lost in the mails, but we never did get an answer to that question, nor to others, in any case.
Could you send me that information, and if so, when?
Mr. Collet: I'll have to check. There might be some delay depending on the financial year-end. The financial audit should be finished and we'll have to determine when the information can be made public. That information should be available. I'll have to check, Mr. Chairman, because of the third party element.
Mr. Leroux: Yes, I do understand, but as the request was put to the previous minister here, in this committee, it's getting a little long in the tooth.
Mr. Collet: I've made a note of it. From memory, I can say that Minister Dupuy did answer two or three questions in the House and gave out a few figures. We'll send them to you, of course.
Mr. Leroux: The figures you send us will certainly be more precise than what we've been given in the past.
The Chairman: So you'll be sending that to Mr. Leroux and the committee.
Ms Gagnon: I'd like to get back to the multiculturalism question because that's my area. You said the multiculturalism program was a Canadian project. With the objective of encouraging the integration of immigrants into the Canadian mainstream, is the federal government promoting a language-based approach? You know that in Quebec, we have a policy on language. Are you sensitive to that? What's your position on that?
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Mr. Collet: The bilingualism policy applies.
Ms Gagnon: So you don't take Quebec's specificity and its reality into account in the area of language.
Mr. Collet: I never said that! You put a question to me, Madam.
Ms Gagnon: That's what I would have liked to hear you say.
Mr. Collet: But I never said that!
Ms Gagnon: No, but do you take the reality of Quebec under consideration in how you deal with immigrants? When you fund an organization, do you take that into account?
Mr. Collet: Madam, we do take that into account as we do other factors, but mainly that one. I can tell you that we take Quebec's reality into account just as we take into account the reality of each one of the provinces we deal with in this area.
We respect the provincial framework with regard to immigrants and communities, the ones you call cultural communities, but that Mr. Boisclair would now like to call something else. Therefore I repeat that in Quebec, among other provinces, funding is determined in consultation with the Quebec ministry concerned and according to the project Quebec has developed, as is done in Manitoba or British Columbia, because these provinces also have a large number of them.
Ms Gagnon: You are in favour of settlement services. Therefore, are you going to allocate more money for settlement services and awareness programs, for example, in order to facilitate better integration?
Mr. Collet: Madam, out of respect for ministerial prerogative, that's one of the questions that will be dealt with in the redefinition of the programs, and I'm sure that Ms Fry will be in a better position to clarify that when she appears before the committee. However, I would say that this is one issue that we've discussed a great deal.
The Chairman: Are there any further questions?
[English]
If not, I have a matter of business to attend to, if you don't mind staying for a little while.
[Translation]
Thank you very much, Mr. Collet and Mr. Berrigan.
Mr. Leroux: Don't forget my flag.
Mr. Collet: I will send you a whole truckload.
Mr. Leroux: I want a million, and I want them delivered by the Panneton Clan.
[English]
The Chairman: I have a small item of business.
[Translation]
First of all, the committee will meet Thursday to hear officials of the Cultural Development and Heritage sector of the Department of Canadian Heritage.
Mr. Leroux: That's Mr. Rabinovitch, isn't it?
The Chairman: Mr. Rabinovitch told me he would arrive a bit late because he has an official meeting elsewhere. He will come at 12 o'clock. His officials will begin the meeting and he will close with questions.
[English]
I have a letter addressed to our whip, who has transmitted it to us from Mrs. Beth Phinney, who is the vice-chair of the committee on the Liberal side:
- It is unfortunately necessary for me to resign as Vice-Chair of the Standing Committee on
Canadian Heritage effective March 25, 1996. I will temporarily be unable to fulfil the
responsibilities of the position of Vice-Chair.
Ms Phinney must leave for health reasons. First of all, I would have liked the committee to approve her resignation as vice-chair. Is everyone agreed? Can someone propose a replacement for Ms Phinney? Mr. Bélanger.
[English]
Mr. Bélanger: What's temporary?
The Chairman: I think it's a matter of a few weeks. From what I understand, Mrs. Phinney will have to undergo some medical treatment and she is going to be away from the House of Commons for some time.
Mr. Peric: Will she resume her position after she gets back?
The Chairman: That will be up to her and the wishes of the committee then.
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Mr. Peric: That's fine, but up to her, up to each individual.... Are we going to play games here? ``I want to be'' or ``I can be'' or.... We'll have to make a decision. Either we're going to elect a permanent vice-chair or we're going to elect just a temporary vice-chair.
The Chairman: There's no such thing as a temporary vice-chair. We elect somebody to replace Ms Phinney and that is the case. We now elect somebody to replace Ms Phinney.
Mr. Bélanger: I move that Mr. Pat O'Brien be the vice-chair.
The Chairman: Do you accept, Mr. O'Brien?
Mr. O'Brien: I will, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman: I have a proposition.
Motion agreed to
[Translation]
Mr. Leroux: I would like the committee to send Ms Phinney its wishes for a speedy recovery.
The Chairman: Thank you very much, Mr. Leroux. That will be done.
[English]
The Chairman: This meeting stands adjourned until Thursday at 11 a.m.