[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]
Tuesday, June 4, 1996
.1107 
[Translation]
The Chairman: Order.
Our witnesses this morning are from the National Museum of Science and Technology Corporation. We will then hear from the National Battlefields Commission. The National Museum of Science and Technology Corporation will appear until 12:15 p.m., to be followed by the National Battlefields Commission, unless all questions have been dealt with before then.
Ms Geneviève Sainte-Marie is the Director of the National Museum of Science and Technology Corporation.
[English]
Mrs. Sainte-Marie, the floor is yours to introduce your colleagues, please.
[Translation]
Ms Geneviève Sainte-Marie (Director, National Museum of Science and Technology Corporation): I would like to introduce my colleagues: Mr. Graham Parsons, Director General, Corporate Services;
[English]
Dr. Paul Donahue, director general for public programs; Dr. David Richeson, director general for collection and research; and Mr. Christopher Terry, director general for the National Aviation Museum.
[Translation]
The Chairman: Ms Sainte-Marie, I would be greatful if you could limit your presentation to 15 or 20 minutes so as to give the members of the committee time to ask questions.
Ms Sainte-Marie: Please stop me if it's too long.
The Chairman: Thank you.
Ms Sainte-Marie: We are very pleased to have this opportunity to appear before the committee this morning. I would like to provide you with a general idea of what our role is as a national museum. Within this context we will also briefly review a number of priorities that the Corporation has identified for the upcoming year.
The National Museum of Science and Technology Corporation was established as an autonomous Crown Corporation on July 1, 1990 with the passage of the Museums Act. The mandate of the Corporation as stated in the Act is:
- to foster scientific and technological literacy throughout Canada by establishing, maintaining
and developing a collection of scientific and technological objects, with special but not
exclusive reference to Canada, and by demonstrating the products and processes of science and
technology and their economic, social and cultural relationships with society.
The Corporation comprises two institutions: the National Museum of Science and Technology and the National Aviation Museum. The two institutions are managed as separate entities in recognition of their institutional histories and different markets and clientele. Both museums do, however, operate under a common set of corporate policies. Support services such as human resources, finance and facilities management are provided centrally. The Corporation also operates an Agriculture Museum located at the Central Experimental Farm which is managed as an off-site exhibit and programming arm of the National Museum of Science and Technology.
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As indicated in the Main Estimates for 1996-97, the Corporation has a total program and facility budget of $19.6 million. The Corporation employs a workforce of 225 full and part-time employees and uses contracted services where it is most cost-effective. In fact, the Corporation and its museums are the most efficient and productive of the national museum institutions in terms of cost per visitor. Over 680,000 visitors are serviced on the smallest budget of the national museuMs
The Corporation is housed in eight buildings, mainly located at two sites, Lancaster Road in the city's east end, and Rockliffe Airport, which provide exhibition, artifact storage and office space.
[English]
With respect to the heritage preservation, a major challenge for any museum is to determine what artifacts it will collect, how they will be acquired and used, and how it will preserve those artifacts for future generations. As the only comprehensive science and technology museum in Canada, there is a special responsibility for the development of a national collection.
Because initially the collections of both museums were rather quickly put together from a variety of sources and with only minimal cataloguing and documentation of the objects being acquired, the museum has had little more than tombstone data on the bulk of its collection acquired prior to 1980. As the collection grew in size, particularly during the 1980s, it became apparent that long-term planning was needed to instil order in the allocation of resources and to establish priorities for growth related to the overall development of the museum.
A study was initiated in 1990 to assess the dimensions of the problem and to propose appropriate action to remedy the situation. As a result, a comprehensive collection development and management strategy was adopted that provides an intellectual framework and context. The strategy was a way of applying direction, parameters and priority continues to be given to its implementation.
The intellectual framework that now guides all aspects of collection development and management, including research, is the transformation of Canada theme. The priorities, decisions and activities of collection and research are guided by the following theme statement:
- Science and technology have changed Canada and influenced its people. The transformation of
Canada, from the period of early exploration and settlement to the present, has been marked by
achievements in science and technology. The special role of the National Museum of Science
and Technology is to help the public understand the ongoing relationships between science,
technology and Canadian society.
The physical care and preservation of the collection is most important and the corporation is placing increased emphasis on the conservation of the collection and in particular the improvement of artifacts storage and environmental conditions and monitoring systems to ensure established environmental standards are met.
The corporation continues to face the problem of inadequate storage facilities for some of its larger artifacts. Of note, several aircraft of the National Aviation Museum, as well as some rail equipment at the National Museum of Science and Technology, are still stored out of doors without protection from the elements.
[Translation]
Dissemination of knowledge is of prime importance to the Corporation and is achieved mainly through public programming activities. The public programming function of the Corporation's museums has the ultimate purpose of providing a learning experience and, to shape this experience, builds on the unique characteristics of museums, i.e. artifacts in historical context with associated interpretative programming.
The main reason for interpreting scientific and technological heritage is to provide Canadians with meaningful information about themselves and Canada. Just as the "Transformation of Canada" theme directs collection acquisition and management, likewise it guides the Corporation in public programming activities.
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Dissemination activities typically depict the historical development of science and technology, explain how things work and the scientific principles involved, and review the critical relations between science, technology and Canadian society with the goal of informing all Canadians and, in particular, of fostering the development of a positive relationship with the sciences.
Public programming activities are undertaken both for the visitor at the Corporate museums and off site. Special emphasis is placed on the development of programming for school groups in support of school curricula.
The primary means of achieving dissemination objectives is through exhibits which are complemented by interpretation activities. The selection of exhibit topics is made in such a way as to provide for a range of experiences that are thought provoking, invite discovery and allow for the acquisition of the widest possible range of knowledge. The comprehension level of text, the ability to touch, smell, hear and see exhibit elements, the relevance of the thematic approach or subject matter, and the level of interactivity encouraged are all aspects of what makes a successful exhibit.
As a national institution, the Corporation must strive to make its collection and programs accessible to all Canadians. In a country the size of Canada, establishing a national presence is neither easy nor inexpensive. Artifact loans, travelling exhibits and publications have traditionally formed the core of these efforts and have been successful in meeting their objectives.
While exhibits and programs delivered on-site constitute the primary means of public programming at the present time, the Corporation is actively exploring how these functions should and can be delivered using electronic platforms to an increasingly interconnected Canadian public and educational audience.
A year-long study by an internal working group has looked at developments in information and electronic technologies and explored ways in which these developments could be incorporated to make the museums more accessible.
The successful harnessing of these emerging technologies will enable the Corporation's museums to extend the reach of their efforts, and hence to capitalize on the investment in them, far beyond the museums' current physical limits. In this regard, the Corporation is very excited about the launch of its rich web-sites, one for each of our three museum locations.
[English]
In closing, I would like to briefly review some of the corporation's priorities for the current fiscal year.
With regard to the collection, the corporation intends to continue its effort to rationalize its collection within the framework of its collection management and development strategy, make optimal use of existing storage warehouses and place a greater emphasis on improvements to the space and monitoring of environmental standards to ensure the preservation of the museums' most important and valuable asset.
With respect to public programs, maintaining attendance space is a priority. The corporation's attendance space has remained relatively stable to this point, attracting over 680,000 visitors to our museums. These results are quite encouraging given the less than favourable economic conditions, increasing competition for discretionary income and emerging trends in tourist visiting patterns.
In order to protect the space, the corporation intends to continue to invest in the regular introduction of change to exhibits and programming offered to visitors. Our market research suggests change is essential both to maintaining current audience and also to attracting new visitors. The corporation will actively promote its museums to increase overall state-of-mind awareness, especially in those market areas under-represented in the museums' audiences. It will demonstrate to potential visitors through Internet the richness of the museums' collections and the benefits of visiting them in person.
Finally, the corporation will ensure its ancillary services, such as cafeterias, gift shops and commercial activities, provide high levels of service at rates of return that provide optimized rent revenues in support of the its core activities.
I hope I have been able to provide the committee members with a better understanding of our operations. I would also like to take this opportunity to extend an invitation to visit our campuses if you haven't already had the occasion to do that. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
[Translation]
The Chairman: Thank you very much, Ms Sainte-Marie.
Mr. Plamondon, please proceed.
Mr. Plamondon (Richelieu): I don't have any questions on the Corporation's budget or its management methods, but I do have some regarding one of your publications which could have the effect of closing down a Quebec magazine on astronomy which has been published for the past24 years.
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This French-language magazine has been in publication in Quebec for 24 years and receives contributions from a host of volunteer scientists. In October 1994, the Corporation announced its intention to change its small newsletter dealing with astronomy, which is entitled Sky News in English and Ciel Info in its French version. The intention is to change it into a magazine, which would be in competition with the existing magazine.
When they learned about that, the publishers of Astronomie Québec wrote to you offering to cooperate, since they felt that the francophone market was not big enough to support two magazines of this type. Negotiations began in February 1995. In May, the English version of Sky News was launched in Ottawa, and the invitation issued by the Corporation referred to cooperation with Astronomie Québec on the French version.
I presume that that is why your organization, which is supposed to publish in two languages, published only in one language, namely English. As your invitation stated that there would be cooperation with Astronomie Québec on the French version, we could accept the fact that you are publishing only in English.
In July 1995, the Corporation and Astronomie Québec agreed on certain points concerning the future French-language publication on which they were to cooperate. There was agreement on the presentation, editorial content, number of pages, frequency of publication, and targeted readership.
In October 1995, however, there was a rushed publication of the French version of Sky News, entitled Astronomie, where is the same title had for 24 years belonged to a different magazine. Why was that done? We don't know.
The name "Astronomie" belongs to the company Les Éditions astronomiques. In November 1995, two months later, the Corporation announced to Astronomie Québec that it was terminating negotiations, that Sky News would be translated and that the French version would be called Ciel Info and would be an exact copy of the English version, whereas Astronomie was more varied and reflected the French fact.
In March 1996, Astronomie Québec was ordered by the Corporation no longer to use the term "Astronomie". This magazine has existed for 24 years, and yet you are ordering it not to use its own name after 24 years of publication!
In March 1996, Astronomie Québec filed an application for inquiry with the Bureau de la concurrence, the Quebec competition office. The complaint is currently under consideration. Throughout these discussions, it should be noted that the Minister of Canadian Heritage refused to become involved, stating clearly that it was your responsibility. You are an independent agency and therefore responsible for what happened. This is not the responsibility of the minister.
It should also be noted that both magazines share the same readership. Astronomie Québec states that the Corporation itself has recognized that the magazine, which has been in publication for 24 years, could not survive the emergence of Ciel Info which is published in French.
Furthermore, when you offer your magazine in French, you send a letter to prospective readers informing them of the advantages your magazine can provide which the other cannot. You say, for example, that readers of your magazine can visit free of charge museums such as National Museum of Science Technology in Ottawa, enjoy discounts in major planetariums in North America, etc. Therefore, you offer certain advantages which the other private magazine cannot, and you refuse to cooperate with a magazine which has been in publication for 24 years.
My questions will be very clear and very specific. How can a museum take the initiative to publish an English-language magazine although its French-language counterpart was not ready, and despite the fact that although the negotiations which it had undertaken were going well, it decided to break off discussions for very mysterious reasons?
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Second, how can the Corporation justify using its resources to dump products on the Quebec market? In fact, to date Ciel Info has been offered by mail or free of charge, with a wide range of benefits such as free entry into the museum, things which a magazine such as Astronomie Québec cannot possibly offer. How can the Corporation justify such commercial practices when it is funded by the taxpayer?
Third, given that the Corporation seemed to consider that the content of Astronomie Québec was sufficiently credible to be associated with it, is it now ready to stop publishing its magazine and resume negotiations?
I don't want to get into a fight with you about this, but I would like to see a resumption of negotiations with this magazine, which has been in publication for 24 years, so as to establish some common content which could be developed in cooperation. I'm therefore asking that negotiations be resumed at the very advanced stage they had reached in 1995, in the interest of all levels of science buffs and the taxpayers.
In conclusion, I would like you to tell me how much the English and French versions of this magazine cost? I would like to have the exact figure.
Would you agree that at the present time there is a deficit incurred in the distribution of the French and English versions?
I look forward to hearing your answer.
The Chairman: Ms Sainte-Marie.
Ms Sainte-Marie: You've raised a number of points. Could I first correct certain facts which are not completely accurate?
First, in our publications we have never used the title Astronomie. We published the French version with the title Ciel Info.
We never gave any order or instruction to Astronomie Québec. Rather, it was the opposite that happened. They instructed us not to use the word "Astronomie" in the title of our publication, and we have in fact complied with their wishes.
However, the context you described is accurate. We have had very lengthy negotiations with the owners of the magazine Astronomie Québec in order to determine whether it might be possible to merge both magazines into one single publication.
These discussions have not been fruitful, largely because the readership in each case is different. Their articles and the magazine in general cater to a far more specialized readership, whereas our intention was to reach out to a very general public. The major stumbling block in the negotiations concerned content, and it was very difficult to reconcile the two approaches.
If I remember correctly, your last question dealt with publication costs. I would like to make it clear that our publication is not free. It is a profit-making publication and part of our commercial operations, and we expect both the French and English versions to be completely viable.
As regards costs, I will hand over to Mr. David Richeson, who is in charge of commercial operations and will probably be able to give you those details.
[English]
Mr. David Richeson (Director General, Collection and Research, National Museum of Science and Technology Corporation): We expect that the magazine will become profitable in 1997, and by the end of 1998 we expect to be making a net profit of about $100,000 a year on the operation. That includes all the costs.
The Chairman: I think Mr. Plamondon wants to ask for the costs of the magazine today, the English version and the French version.
Mr. Richeson: The unit costs of the magazine at present are about the same as the subscription price. We're not making any money on it at the moment, because we have to recover the initial costs of set-up.
As each issue comes out, we're amortizing those costs and the unit costs become less and less. That will stabilize in 1998, when we've recovered all the initial costs to set up. We're expecting to have by that time around 20,000 subscriptions, so the net profit would be about $5 per subscription.
The Chairman: How much did you invest to make English and French, in round dollars?
Mr. Richeson: I don't have the detailed amounts with me, but I think up to now we've invested about $150,000.
The Chairman: Overall?
Mr. Richeson: Overall, yes.
[Translation]
The Chairman: Mr. Plamondon, do you have any other questions?
Mr. Plamondon: I am surprised that a government agency would consider that its role is to compete with a private organization working in the same area, and that it's willing to sink $150,000 into launching a magazine.
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You have not answered my question as to why you published the English magazine first and the French magazine only six months later.
Ms Sainte-Marie: I think you have answered that question yourself.
In view of the representations made to us by Astronomie Québec, we wanted to seriously study the possibility of a joint publication, and that delayed the publication of the French-language version.
I recognize that at the time we were not complying with the Official Languages Act, and that is why we really wanted to try. We published our French magazine Ciel Info when we realized that we could not reach an agreement with Astronomie Québec.
Mr. Plamondon: Are you aware that you will bankrupt the other magazine?
Do you realize that, by publishing a second French-language magazine aimed at the same readership, you are forcing the first one out of existence after 24 years of publication? There aren't many francophones in British Columbia or Prince Edward Island! They are mainly in Quebec, on the border of Quebec and New Brunswick, and that's where the readership of the magazine is located. And you are going to close it down after 24 years of publication! Is it the role of the Corporation to close down successful scientific periodicals, publications which are cost-effective thanks to the volunteer work of scientists, whereas you are simply sinking money into another publication?
And this magazine is just a translation. There isn't even any special content in French.
Ms Sainte-Marie: According to the albeit not necessarily complete information that we now have, it appears that this magazine has not had a negative impact on Astronomie Québec subscription list for the simple reason that the content of the articles is different and we are not dealing with the same public.
Mr. Plamondon: But with all the promotion that you do, such as free admission, you're going to find sponsors who will help you finance this magazine. Do you think that Coca-Cola or some other firm will make a distinction between a magazine aimed at the general public and one that is designed for science buffs?
We already have a magazine that sells well, serves as an effective mouthpiece and is written in French. There wasn't any magazine in English. You have now launched an English magazine, and that's great! Why can't these two magazines complement each other? The French magazine has been in publication for 24 years. You could use the French magazine as a model to get a good magazine going. I do not understand why you want to compete with something that exists and which sells very well. This so-called mission is something I just don't understand!
I should add that even the Fédération professionnelle des journalistes du Québec were very surprised and wrote to you on this matter.
[English]
The Chairman: Who wants to question Ms Sainte-Marie and others?
Mr. O'Brien (London - Middlesex): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I do have two or three questions.
I appreciate your presentation.
On the fifth page of the notes I have, you're speaking about public programs. You talk about a second objective to actively promote museums to increase the overall state of mind awareness, especially in those market areas currently under-represented.
About that objective I have two questions. How do you plan to promote them? Which market areas are under-represented? I'm always interested in who attends various museums and who does not. I know you're speaking to that. Can you elaborate on it, please?
Ms Sainte-Marie: Yes. Would you mind if I split your questions for both museums? They don't necessarily address identical market areas, so they have certain different strategies in terms of attracting additional clientele. Maybe we could start with the National Aviation Museum and then go on to the Museum of Science and Technology.
Mr. Christopher Terry (Director General, National Aviation Museum, National Museum of Science and Technology Corporation): Thank you.
The state of mind awareness issue is very geographically linked even in the local metropolitan market we're in right now, the national capital region. What we find at the aviation museum is that our local audiences are drawn quite significantly from the east end of the metropolitan region. When we look at the residence of visitors according to postal codes, we find that people from the western end of the metropolitan region do not visit in numbers appropriate to their population base in the region. So we're going to make some determined efforts to hopefully break through the psychological barrier that exists in the Ottawa market, east and west. We will also be targeting even more intensively than now on attracting people from communities on the Hull side of the Ottawa River. The market is quite geographically segmented, and our research shows that quite clearly.
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As far as state of mind awareness in other market areas is concerned, the strategy of the National Aviation Museum, based on budgetary considerations, is to do this through public service announcements, which are aired on television across the country. That is a way of making people aware the museum exists, so that when they are visiting Ottawa or have word of mouth advertising they can do for us, they know it's there and will ask where it is so they can visit it.
It's a two-pronged approach as far as the national capital region is concerned. We're going to be doing more targeted marketing directly into neighbourhoods with social demographic profiles that match our visitors.
Mr. Paul Donahue (Director General, Public Programs, National Museum of Science and Technology Corporation): At the Museum of Science and Technology, which also includes the aviation museum, we've identified both our traditional audiences and the audiences we want to have more solid contact with. We've done a couple of levels of addressing in terms of this issue.
First of all, we've made more use of TV, which is a fairly expensive medium but a very cost-effective medium. We've taken a close look at that. We've evaluated our successes with various media and that one seems to be turning out quite well. We also continue to use radio. We're now using the Internet as well and, as Chris mentioned, making public service announcements.
The other thing we do in terms of overall awareness, because a lot of times there isn't the broad awareness of museums and why you should visit them, is a lot of public service contacts, which stretches our advertising budget quite a bit.
Within our exhibits, we're trying to make sure as well that we address different audience needs. We try to take into consideration that we have everyone from seniors to children coming in and using our exhibits, using our programs. We also have to recognize that they're not all originally from this country.
We have a lot of people for whom English or French is their second language, and we have to address their needs as well. We're trying to do that quite a bit through some of our school programming and in our exhibits. In a recent exhibit we opened up, ``Love, Leisure and Laundry'', there's a fairly significant multicultural component: how domestic activities are done in other homes, such as non-traditional European homes. The other thing is, with a topic such as ``Love, Leisure and Laundry'', we are addressing something people in any family can recognize, and it really does address something that many of the female members of our audience would be particularly familiar with.
We're also looking at seniors and making sure we address their needs by having seniors events and making sure the type we use in exhibits meets their needs. As well, we have sub-titles on some of our audio-visual scripts.
Teens we have not had much success in addressing right now, but when our new computer exhibit comes on-line, it will probably help quite a bit.
We really are directed at a family audience. With the agricultural museum, we normally hit the younger families with the younger children, and then at science and technology we hit a broader range of families.
Mr. O'Brien: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate those responses.
I find myself wondering about the impacts of budget cuts on these particular museums, and I wonder whether we could have a comment about where the major impact has been felt. Do you see budgetary necessities resulting in significant reduction of service for the museums?
Ms Sainte-Marie: The budget impact has in fact been distributed throughout the various activities of the museum, but we've been trying to protect what we believe are the key priorities. Therefore, we will make sure that the collection is warehoused properly. At the same time, we will make sure we make better informed decisions on what objects we should or should not be acquiring for the collection. So we will have a well-balanced collection that does not grow in an indiscriminate fashion, because warehousing costs are rather high.
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On the public programming side, we certainly want to protect our audience base. This means we are committed to completing, on a priority basis, the exhibit renewal plan for the Museum of Science and Technology. The exhibits have not been renewed for about 20 years, in some cases, so we want to ensure that we complete our major exhibit galleries.
After this, since major exhibit galleries should be completed, with a reduction in budgets we will go into what we call more rapid change on such a large scale as we might have been able to undergo in the past.
On the facility side, about a third of the budget is on facilities management. As I mentioned before, our collection is made up of rather large objects so they do require a lot of warehouse space.
We have had to review our inventory of buildings very closely. We believe we can make some economies in the more efficient and effective negotiation of leases when they come up for renewal and in the more efficient administration of our buildings.
This is how we intend to take the majority of the cuts. In parallel, on the revenue side, you have of course heard mention of one endeavour on the commercial operations side, but we also are trying to attract some revenue on our own needs.
Mr. O'Brien: Thank you.
[Translation]
The Chairman: Mr. Bélanger.
Mr. Bélanger (Ottawa-Vanier): I would like to continue the line of questioning begun by my colleague from the Bloc Québécois with respect to the Official Languages Act and competition.
Am I to understand that the Museum's board of directors and management knowingly violated the Official Languages Act?
Ms Sainte-Marie: I believe that they did so inadvertently, when the English and French publications were not made available at the same time.
Mr. Bélanger: Is management aware that this must be the case?
Ms Sainte-Marie: We are very aware of the fact that this should have occurred simultaneously and we published our French edition as soon as this was drawn to our attention.
If I may, I would like to back up a bit. The Museum has, over the past 15 years, produced an English magazine on astronomy called Sky News. The French version, which was a booklet rather than a publication, was called Ciel Info. What's new is that people now have to pay for the magazine.
We assessed the potential of these publications, which used to be free, and we decided that they could turn a profit.
Mr. Bélanger: I will get back to that point.
Are you willing to state that, from now on, the Official Languages Act will be respected in its entirety?
Ms Sainte-Marie: Absolutely.
Mr. Bélanger: On the topic of competition, is there, in the gamut of laws and regulations governing the federal apparatus, a policy dealing with this type of competition?
Ms Sainte-Marie: Not that I know of.
The Canadian Museum of Civilization has an IMAX theatre, which doesn't prevent the private sector from having one in the same city.
As far as I know, there's no policy preventing us from having a publication in a field where the private sector already has one. This ties back a bit to what I was saying earlier. This astronomy magazine was not new for us because we already had 20 years of experience in this field.
Mr. Bélanger: Yes, but not like what you are doing now.
Ms Sainte-Marie: No, we didn't produce the same level of publication. For 15 years we had been producing a booklet on astronomy.
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Mr. Bélanger: The Committee should perhaps examine the need for a policy dealing with this question of competition initiated by a specialty federal institution.
Perhaps we need to establish rules so that people faced with cutbacks have something to go by to avoid situations such as this one. Perhaps our committee could look into this matter at another time or request the government to deal with it through another committee or agency.
The Chairman: Mr. Plamondon.
Mr. Plamondon: The example that you give of the IMAX theatre surprises me. When the decision was made to go ahead with this theatre, there wasn't another one in the region. Had there been one, an IMAX theatre would never have been set up inside the Museum. I'm saying that such a publication was already in existence. If this had not been the case, I would applaud the fact that you wanted to bring science to the general public and make a magazine profitable by launching it both in English and French Canada. English Canada did not have such a comprehensive magazine.
Now I see how you have gone about complying with the Official Languages Act, since you were quick to point out to Mr. Bélanger what steps you have taken. You have painted a reality found only in English Canada and you have translated it into French. It is as though we came out and said that the CBC will remain and everything done on the network will be translated and broadcast in French. The reality of French Canada is different and hence the content shown on Radio-Canada network is different.
I looked at the last issue of the science magazine in Astronomie Québec, which dealt with astronomy software available in French. It's typical. In science, you know how hard Francophones have to fight to carve out a spot for themselves and to create software. This magazine dealt with this issue, but your magazine is a complete translation. I see that the name of Terence Dickinson, a man with a wide reputation, figures in the French version of your English magazine. Everyone at Astronomie Québec wanted to work with this wonderful scientist who is known both in English Canada and throughout the world. And now, all of a sudden, it is every man for himself and now we have to fight about things. That bothers me.
There is something not right about your decision. I read the letter from the editor, Mr. Urbain, to Ms Copps, who at that time was the Minister of Heritage Canada. He expressed his willingness to cooperate in a magazine. Why not when we already have something that works well? These people, volunteers, do not receive a penny of subsidy money, but over the past 24 years, they have managed to build a much appreciated magazine.
Who criticized your decision to shut down this magazine through unfair competition? The answer is very obvious: the Fédération des astronomes amateurs du Québec, which is affiliated with the International Astronomical Union, the Association des communicateurs scientifiques du Québec, the Regroupement des organes de vulgarisation et d'informations scientifiques. OVIS, as well as the Fédération professionnelle des journalistes du Québec in the letter I quoted from earlier. It is not possible that everybody else is wrong.
You must respect these people who have never asked the government for a cent and who managed to build a very credible magazine. They are willing to join with the other magazine to produce a magazine that will bear either the same or a different name, a common magazine where agreement can be reached as to editorial content, format and number of pages. They will give a magazine a different character and content - the word distinct irks a lot of people - , so that all can see that astronomy in the Francophone world is really dynamic as well.
I would suggest - and you will do as you see fit - that the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage requests the National Museum on Science and Technology to strike an agreement with Astronomie Québec to produce one francophone scientific magazine on astronomy.
I hope that the Committee will agree to this resolution so that people can return to the negotiating table and perhaps, in a month's time, the renown officials who are appearing before us today will be able to come back to give us an update on the results of the negotiating process.
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The Chairman: As committee members all now, under our Standing Orders a 48 hours' notice is required before a motion can be studied, unless there is unanimous consent of the members. It is up to you to decide.
Mr. Plamondon: The committee would express the wish that only one magazine be published, a cooperative effort involving both magazines. I read it before.
Mr. Bélanger: Does there have to be a quorum to receive this type of resolution?
The Chairman: I've just noticed that we don't have quorum here. In that case, I believe that...
Mr. Plamondon: We didn't have a quorum when we started? We had it when we started! That means that we're sitting for nothing, that we're going to leave?
Mr. Bélanger: If my colleague accepts to move something other than a resolution, unless my colleagues on this side disagree, I could say that it is the wish of the Committee that the Museum officials should go back to the drawing board and try to at least settle the matter. I felt there was the will to do so.
I must say to my colleague that it isn't the word "distinct" that bothers me, but rather the expression "English Canada".
Mr. Plamondon: I thought that there was quorum at the beginning of the meeting, then there was no more problem until the end. My motion, even if the committee carries it, will remain a pious wish, because the leaders have total jurisdiction. This is granted to them not by the minister, but by their board of directors; I recognize that that is their direction, but it seems to me that they should respect a motion from the committee they appeared before, a motion which would thus become a wish. If we had unanimous consent, we could get news within a month to see what has happened. That is all I am asking and, if we have to listen to both parties, why not?
The Chairman: Here's the situation concerning the quorum. The Standing Orders stipulate that there can be a quorum of a minimum of three members to hear the witnesses. I need another quorum for resolutions. I suggest that we take note of your resolution and that we consider it at the next meeting. I think that Mr. Bélanger's suggestion is quite relevant: that we convey the committee's wish to Ms Sainte-Marie. The resolution will remain at that, and we'll consider it at the next meeting.
Mr. Plamondon: We can't carry a motion, but perhaps we can carry resolutions? We want to express a wish. We do so and I would hope that as Chairman, you will send an official letter stating that the Committee has expressed the desire that negotiations start up again to come up with a single French speaking magazine.
Mr. Bélanger: It is obvious that in the future, somebody else will want to put out a French speaking magazine. At that point, the Museum officials will be in a rather difficult position.
Mr. Plamondon: I agree with you. Let's not say that we wish for a single magazine, but that we would like negotiations to start up again between the two magazines which have already...
Mr. Bélanger: I totally agree.
Mr. Plamondon: I don't want to impose limits.
The Chairman: Mr. Plamondon, I'll suggest something to you. I'm prepared to express the desire of the members of the committee in a letter. As far as just sending it out, I will prepare a draft which I will submit to committee members the next time and, if everybody agrees on the wording, I will send it to Ms Sainte-Marie. If at that point, you or your replacement still want us to discuss your motion, we can continue to discuss it at the next meeting.
Mr. Plamondon: I think that the letter would already be something.
The Chairman: Yes.
Mr. Plamondon: Okay.
Mr. Bélanger: Mauril Bélanger, Ottawa-Vanier, representative of English Canada: there is something a bit off in that.
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The Chairman: Mr. Plamondon, you are an associate member of the committee and not a regular member. Could you give me another formulation of this?
Mr. Plamondon: Yes, I have all that.
The Chairman: Thank you very much.
[English]
Are there any other questions for the members?
[Translation]
Do you have any other questions, Mr. Plamondon, for Ms Sainte-Marie and her colleagues?
Mr. Plamondon: I'd like to thank them for appearing and listening to my requests. I'm making them in a very positive way, to the good of astronomy in general.
The Chairman: Thank you very much, Ms Sainte-Marie.
[English]
Thanks very, very much to you and to all your colleagues for appearing here and being extremely patient and open with us.
Thank you very much.
[Translation]
I will now ask the officials of the National Battlefields Commission to come forth. They areMr. André Juneau, Mr. Michel Leullier and Ms Louise Germain.
Mr. Juneau, you've already appeared before the committee and therefore you know the procedure a bit. You can take 15 minutes or so to make your presentation on behalf of your organization, and then the MPs will ask you questions.
Mr. André Juneau (Chairman, National Battlefields Commission): Fine, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Chairman, Vice-Chairs, members of the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage, this is the second time that the National Battlefields Commission has be invited to meet with the members of the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage. We wish to thank you for the opportunity; you may rest assured that it is with very great pleasure that we shall describe the situation in our institution to you.
If Michel Leullier, the Secretary and Director General of the Commission, and Louise Germain his assistant, took part in the first meeting. That was not true of myself, the Chairman, since, like most members of the Board, I was not appointed until September 1995.
Two years ago, the Commission's presentation was designed above all to make our institution better known. Of course, I shall briefly recall our mission for you but on this occasion I shall also try to make clear the dynamics that motivate the main players in the Commission, the challenges it faces in the current difficult budgetary situation, its contribution to the development of Canadian heritage and the conservation of one of the most beautiful parks of the world.
In doing so, I shall consider both the estimates for 1996-97 and the Commission's business plan, which show its approaches and objectives, the revenues it must generate and the partnerships it must develop.
The Commission's mission: The National Battlefield's Commission derives its mandate and powers from an Act of Parliament dated 1908, the Act respecting the National Battlefields at Quebec, with its subsequent amendments. Under the Act, the Commission's mandate is to acquire and preserve the major historic battlefields in Quebec and convert them into a national park.
The Commission is responsible for acquiring, administering and managing the battlefields in question and managing the funds made available to it for these objects.
Its existing properties consist primarily of the Battlefields Park, better known as the Plains of Abraham, the des Braves Park and the Three Martello Towers, the only ones in Quebec.
It has acquired this property through gifts from individuals, municipalities, provinces, the federal government and certain Commonwealth countries. The Plans of Abraham, which were developed primarily between 1908 and 1954, now cover some 265 acres.
In order fully to carry out its current mission, the Commission must reconcile the duties that it must perform in terms of a first rank historical park with those that relate to its role as an urban park. It must preserve this property for future generations and develop it so that the population can fully enjoy all its riches - historical, cultural, recreational and natural.
The Committee's activities relate to the development and conservation of its property and, in addition, it must take into account the fact that its lands are, in a sense, a living laboratory, which meets an everyday need for a large number of people. It is a place of learning, education, awakening as well as a site for relaxation and demonstrations. It is also used each year by various organizations for about 60 activities.
The Commission's mission must now be to ensure that this major historic and urban park adapts and responds to current needs; it must also be enlivened so that it can serve and be developed as a dynamic entity. As a result, we should not think solely in terms of preserving the park's past: it will be important in the future to continue to develop the property, to make its history at various times better known, to combine the historical, cultural, recreational and natural aspects, to adapt all the contemporary requirements and to develop the Canadian public's feeling of belonging and pride in this park.
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The Battlefields park is, in fact, the cradle of the country's history. It was on this site that Quebec's major historical battles took place. It is therefore an important, if not the most important, element in Canada's heritage. These lands also played an important role in the era of colonization; it was a strategic location and the site of cultural manifestations by the Francophone and Anglophone communities.
As a result, the Commission feels that this site should be the centre of attraction in presenting the history of our country and the cohabitation following the conquest. Its conservation and development are essential.
On the other hand, it must be remembered that it is the most important urban park in Quebec City. The fact that it is at the same time a park of such historical significance for the country and can be counted among the greatest and most prestigious urban parks in the world really makes these lands different. It is no exaggeration to say that the Plains of Abraham are unique in North America.
Operations: The National Battlefields Commission is administered by a board of directors consisting of seven volunteer members and a secretary appointed by the Governor General in Council for an indefinite period. In addition, the Government of Quebec has a representative on the board. The position on the board to which the province of Ontario makes appointment is currently vacant. These two provinces enjoy this privilege because of the contributions they made to the Commission's objects in 1908, when they made gifts totalling not less than $100,000.
The Commission's organization is relatively modest. Its activities relate to the development of the land and its conservation. The organizational structure consists of: management, finances service, maintenance and development service, security service, information and reception service and the educational programs and museology service. This accounts for 31.5 full-time equivalents plus a number of part-time employees hired with the Commission's revenues.
Clientele and visits: The Commission's parks are visited and toured by almost two million people a year from all levels of society and all age groups. Most of these people are tourists who come from the four corners of the world, Canada, the province of Quebec and the area immediately surrounding Quebec City.
Over the last few years, the Commission has developed programs for students and these include playing fields, day camps and interests groups. Thus, in 1995, it received over 17 000 people primarily from the province of Quebec but also from other provinces.
Attendance at the Interpretation and Exhibition Centre located in the Martello Towers declined by approximately 50 per cent. This was attributed to the introduction of admission charges under the cost-recovery program, although a survey of visitors indicated that they were satisfied with the services offered and felt that the charges were reasonable.
However, use of the bus service increased by 114 per cent, attendance at performances at the Edwin-Bélanger band stand by 47 per cent and participation in educational activities by 42 per cent.
During the coming year, efforts will be made to further develop our clientele of seniors and to emphasize general promotion of the Commission's services.
General situation: The land that was developed between 1908 and 1954, the infrastructures and the stands of trees, show signs of aging and are in poor condition. This requires action to repair and replace them. For example, some sewer and water systems must be refurbished, buildings, terraces, monuments and roads need to be renovated and it is also necessary to ensure that trees are replaced and the cliff stabilized.
In addition to the requirements for conservation and the general maintenance, the Commission must also develop the historical, cultural, recreational and natural heritage of the land and ensure that the institution is visible and its resources promoted.
Here there is a list of accomplishments since 1991-92, particularly the Battlefields Park Interpretation Centre; the presentation book entitled The Plains of Abraham: the Search for the Ideal; refurbishment of the Martello Towers; establishment of a bandstand; creation of educational programs; study of archeological potential and archeological excavations; development of the Laurier parking area; development of a nature path; introduction to the Rencontre des grands jardins du Québec; installation of automatic sprinklers systems; temporary exhibitions at the Interpretation Centre; exhibitions in the Martello Towers; construction of a new services building; development of pétanque areas for seniors; reconstruction of a large part of water supply and sewer systems; landscape development along Wolfe Avenue, at the Gouverneurs bandstand and the Saint-Denis Terrace; implementation of an RCMP horseback patrol; reconstruction of Grey Terrace; beginning of installation of signs for tourists and stabilization of part of the cliff.
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This year, the Commission is continuing these activities by redeveloping the surroundings of the Centennial Fountain; constructing a multi-use path for roller blade skaters and cyclists; refurbishing buildings and terraces; completing the signs for tourists; identifying and beautifying entrances to the park; stabilizing another part of the cliff and completing the Plains of Abraham Discovery House project.
I should point out that in order to complete the above projects, a number of special budgets were obtained, although some were completed with financial assistance from the City of Quebec pursuant to an agreement we reached with it after the question of grants in lieu for the Battlefields Park was settled. The City agreed to contribute a sum of $2.4 million for projects designed to develop the park as long as the Commission also contributed a total of $1.5 million. The City's share varies between 25 per cent and 75 per cent depending on the project. In order to achieve this, the Commission had a number of special budgets but also had to rationalize and cut its operating budgets and generate revenues. The projects as a whole give the Commission sufficient resources and time to complete most of its projects before it has to implement the most recent budget cuts.
Current Budget Situation: The budget of the National Battlefields Commission for fiscal 1995-96 was $4.800. In 1996-97 it is $2.3 million including revenues of $300,000. For 1997-98 and 1998-99, it will be $2.689 million and $2.127 million respectively.
These sums include the revenues generated by the Commission. It should be noted that in 1995-96 the Commission made the last ex gratia payment of $2,400,000 to the cities of Quebec and Sillery. These payments extended over a period of four years and were designed to cover grants in lieu of taxes that had not been paid earlier.
In addition, the reduction represents a cumulative cut of 5 per cent over the reference year of 1994-95 which, for the Commission, means effective cuts of $114,000, $222,000, $341,000 and $415,000.
Despite its relatively modest budget, the National Battlefields Commission has experienced budget cuts over the last few years, particularly in 1993-94 and 1994-95, of approximately $66,000.
In September 1994, the Commission indicated in its program reduction plan submitted to the Minister of Canadian Heritage that it could make a maximum cumulative cut of 5% over three years by taking certain measures to rationalize and cut costs and so on but would find it difficult to sustain cuts over a fourth year.
Since the Commission is now required to plan for further cuts of approximately $74,000 in 1998-99, it will have no alternative but to increase its revenues further in order to meet this target, since these operating budgets are clearly inadequate.
For example, the operations budget, excluding salaries, revenues and investments, will be $491,000 in 1998-99, covering the expenditures in two budget items; lawnmowing and Spring and Fall cleaning, which is put out to contract and the cost of which fluctuates in line with the market and the services of the Canadian Corps of Commissioners, whose salaries are set by order in council.
You will understand, therefore, that the Commission is facing a very major challenge: to generate as much income as possible in order to be able to ensure the conservation and development of its property and to develop partnerships.
The Chairman: Could we encourage you to summarize the remaining pages, please?
Mr. Juneau: Yes, Mr. Chairman.
In brief, according to our revenue program, our revenues will increase from $250,000 to $300,000. I would emphasize that recently, last week, we secured the transfer of the Montcalm building that will serve as a visitor centre and help generate supplementary revenue.
As for partnerships, we have established very important and solid ones with the City of Quebec, the friends of the Plains of Abraham and other interested parties in the Quebec City area who help us with our work.
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Mr. Chairman, I would now like to go to the matter of the Commission's policies on page 6. In brief, our goal is still the conservation of property and our priorities are to ensure the restoration of the Parks' tree cover between now and the year 2008, which will be the centennial of the creation of the Commission, to stabilize the cliff which does pose serious problems and improve the condition of infrastructures.
As for the development of resources, the priorities are to: complete the Plains of Abraham Discovery House, in the Montcalm building, as noted earlier, to develop partnerships and revenue generating programs.
As for the provision of quality services, the priorities, once again, are the Discovery House and extending reception services for our senior citizens. One important point is that we want to increase the visibility of the federal government through the Discovery House, a public appeal to restore the Parks' tree cover, completion of signs for tourists and upgrading of entrances to the park; we also plan to place RCMP horseback patrol on a more regular footing, to plan for the 100th anniversary of the Commission in 2008 which will coincide with Quebec City's 400th anniversary and to establish a communications service.
Mr. Chairman, that is the broad outline of the document we are presenting. We're now ready to answer any questions the members of the committee might have.
The Chairman: Mr. Juneau, thank you very much. As you noted in your brief, the symbolic importance of the battlefields as a uniting element is very great for all of us today. I hope that in answering the members of this committee, you will address the symbolic value of the battlefields, how you intend to develop them and so on.
I'll give the floor to the members of the committee.
Mr. O'Brien.
[English]
Mr. O'Brien: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I appreciate the presentation, and certainly I've always enjoyed my opportunities to visit this beautiful park. I wish I could go even more often.
I have a couple of factual questions. They may be displaying some ignorance on my part, but I'm new to the committee.
Does this commission strictly oversee the Plains of Abraham park? Is that the one facility?
Mr. Juneau: Yes.
Mr. O'Brien: When I look at the name ``Battlefields Commission'', I'm at a bit of a loss. I would have thought such a commission would oversee other sites as well.
Mr. Juneau: Well, there is the major site, which is the Plains of Abraham. You have some little sites around that, such as Parc des Braves, which remembers the battle of Lévis. The Martello towers are considered another park. They're all battlefields, but there is a big one and four little ones, I would say.
Mr. O'Brien: You have no authority over other battlefield sites, say from the War of 1812, do you?
Mr. Juneau: No.
Mr. O'Brien: They would come under...
Mr. Juneau: Either Parks Canada or some other organization.
Mr. O'Brien: Thank you.
[Translation]
The Chairman: Mr. Bélanger.
Mr. Bélanger: Mr. Juneau, just to get a better idea, I'll refer to the third paragraph on page 3 of your brief.
You mention that attendance at the Interpretation and Exhibition Centre declined by approximately 50%. It seems to be attributed to the introduction of admission charges. What is the order of these admission charges?
Mr. Juneau: It's very minimal. At the Interpretation Centre, it's $2 per person; it's also $2 for the Martello towers.
Mr. Bélanger: Further on, it says that a poll shows that the public considers that rate to be very reasonable. At $2, I agree. But the arguments being advanced are contradictory here.
First, it says that it's due to the introduction of admission charges then it says that it can't be due to the admission charges. So what's the story?
Mr. Juneau: Before the admission charges, everything was free; people could go and come as they wanted in the Martello towers and the Interpretation Centre.
With the budget cuts, with this obligation to generate revenues, we imposed an admission fee of $2. As you say, it is reasonable. However, people who came through regularly three or even four times when it was free, only come by once now that they have to spend $2.
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Mr. Bélanger: I see.
Mr. Juneau: So we're told on the one hand that a $2 charge is reasonable even though attendance has declined. It's a bit of a contradiction.
Mr. Bélanger: What about the increased attendance for the bus service? What bus service is this? I've been to the Plains, but I've never taken the bus. So tell me what it's all about.
Mr. Juneau: The Commission acquired a mini-bus like the ones they have at the airport, here. There's a tour during which the whole history of the Plains is explained and there's a charge for that. The tour was very popular. People appreciate it because the Plains of Abraham park is too big to be toured on foot. The mini-bus goes from east to west and lets you see all the sites. It's become very popular.
Mr. Bélanger: Is this a new service that was introduced with the admission charges?
Mr. Juneau: Yes, that's it.
Mr. Bélanger: Fine.
Ms Louise Germain (Assistant Secretary, National Battlefields Commission): The service did exist before, but there was no charge.
Mr. Bélanger: That's what I wanted to know. In that case, the charges had no effect. You say use has increased by 114%?
Mr. Juneau: Yes, that's it.
Ms Germain: We made a special effort to improve our signs and make ourselves known.
Mr. Bélanger: Attendance at performances at the Edwin Bélanger bandstand - not a relative, by the way - increased by 47%. Did the charge have any effect there?
Mr. Juneau: No, you can't charge anything. We call on sponsors to fund the program at the Edwin Bélanger bandstand.
Mr. Bélanger: And I suppose there's no charge for participation in educational activities either.
Ms Germain: Not for the school programs, but for some other services offered to the population at large, there is a minimum charge.
Mr. Bélanger: Is that new also?
Ms Germain: Yes.
Mr. Bélanger: For two other services where there is a charge, there has still been an increase in attendance.
Mr. Juneau: Yes.
Ms Germain: Yes, for the new services that were maybe given a bit more publicity.
Mr. Bélanger: Are there any lessons to be drawn from the fact that two out of three increased and one decreased?
Ms Germain: It's just a simple question of statistics. You can always draw a lesson from anything, but as Mr. Juneau mentioned, the figures concerning the attendance at exhibitions were perhaps not quite accurate.
Mr. Juneau: The Martello Towers exhibition is smaller and more static, whereas the bus tour of the Plains of Abraham is a bigger attraction. The same can be said for educational programs that are focused on history, ornithology, etc. and that are more interesting to people. They are more willing to pay for those. This is what we've learned from past experience.
We will therefore have to improve the promotion of the Martello Towers and perhaps make the exhibition more lively.
Mr. Michel Leullier (Secretary and Director General, National Battlefields Commission): A play is put on inside the minibus. At each bus stop, an actor playing a part enters or leaves the bus. This is very good advertising.
Mr. Bélanger: From a more general point of view, I have noticed that in the beginning, in 1995-1996, the budget was $4.8 million and in 1998-1999, it will be $2.1 million.
Mr. Juneau: Yes.
Mr. Bélanger: This is an impressive reduction. However, at the end, when you summarize things, the impression that one gets - and correct me if I'm wrong - , is that you seem to be doing more. You seem to be adding services and inaugurating new things. It's interesting, but I would like you to explain this to me a bit more.
Mr. Juneau: The Commission has made a change. First of all, the sizeable reduction - and this is highlighted in all honesty in our document - is due to the stop put on the payments of $2.4 million that we received over a period of four years in lieu of taxes. There is therefore necessarily a reduction of $2.4 million. In fact, it was simply a transfer of money to the City of Quebec.
Mr. Bélanger: I did not know that. This was used for historical adjustments.
Mr. Juneau: These reductions forced us to realize that the park was not generating revenues and that we could generate some by charging fees for activities. Therefore, we adopted a somewhat more commercial approach.
Mr. Bélanger: Would it be out of place to conclude that without this reduction, you would not have acted as you did?
Mr. Juneau: We had begun to do that.
Mr. Bélanger: So, it would be out of place for me to come to that conclusion.
Mr. Juneau: It would not be out of place, because these activities had begun. But first of all, as we said in the document, the park underwent a period of organization followed by a dynamic period that is increasing now that the park is, for all intents and purposes, reorganized.
Mr. Bélanger: The cuts to expected subsidies were therefore not negative,
Mr. Juneau: No. They were negative and will be more so because the revenue that we are looking for is limited.
Mr. Bélanger: Mr. Juneau, you're not going to tell me that you are short on ideas or imagination.
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Mr. Juneau: We are not short on ideas, but on money.
Mr. Leullier: In the past, the Commission never really had a chance to know prosperous times. We have never had huge sums of money. We have therefore an attitude that allows us to adapt fairly well.
Our goal is to get $700,000 more than our budget of $1.8 million in the next few years. This is a huge challenge to meet. I hope that this will serve as a model.
Mr. Bélanger: There is perhaps the will to have a prosperous year at some time, but it won't be for quite a while.
Mr. Leullier: In the past, we never had any.
Mr. Bélanger: As we said earlier, isn't the time for you to update your name?
Mr. Juneau: It's possible. We are thinking about amendments to the act, which has never been amended. This is one of our goals.
Of course there are a number of them. As a I explained earlier, the Battlefields Park, or the Plains of Abraham, and the Des Braves Park are two entities. There is a whole series of small areas that are not really a part of the battlefields. For example the Saint-Denis Terrace, where the Citadel is located, is under our jurisdiction, as is the rue des Braves, which joins the two parks.
Mr. Bélanger: You seem to be enjoying yourself, Mr. Chairman. Am I wrong?
Mr. Juneau: This is a good question that sets up a number of challenges. I think that we are entering a more interesting period. We received a message from the government. It said that we must heighten our presence in the area, which makes things more dynamic. We didn't read this in the conclusions, but we have just been awarded the Grand Prix du tourisme by Tourisme Québec. Coming from a federal organization, it is important to carry out an activity that gives rise to other activities. One can commit to this and become enthusiastic.
I know the federal government because I worked there for 35 years and I know that, even if we generate more revenues, we're not always authorized to use them completely. It's somewhat demoralizing. We are showing initiative and it would be nice if we could profit from the maximum amount of revenues.
Mr. Bélanger: On that same topic, as I understand it - this should be verified and I believe that you can do so - this policy is evolving. I am referring to an organization that you probably know of, given that you have worked with it fairly regularly. I'm talking about Parks Canada. As I know, Parks Canada has now been allowed to keep the revenues it generates from its networks of canals. You should see if the same could be done for your organization.
Mr. Juneau: We keep some, but a maximum is set. Last year, we had to return money to the Treasury Board because we had overshot our goal of $250,000.
[English]
Mr. O'Brien: Just briefly, Mr. Chairman, this matter of the name is something of a misnomer. What's the proposed new name to be?
Mr. Juneau: There's no proposal on the desk right now.
Mr. O'Brien: Oh, there's no proposal.
Mr. Juneau: We intend to modify the law, because the law is from 1908. We would like to have a new, more modern law. The name will be part of it.
Mr. O'Brien: That's good. Somebody looking at this would say these people are in charge of Queenston Heights, Batoche, and lots of other battlefields. This is the primary one, but there are others.
I hope the name will be appropriately changed.
A voice: Unless we expand the mandate.
[Translation]
The Chairman: Before we part, I would like to ask you two short questions. It was my pleasure to live near the Plains of Abraham for a number of years, when I was in Quebec City. It is a truly extraordinary site. It is unique because it is an historic site under federal jurisdiction. The Canadian Army is there; the Governor General has a residence; the Quebec Musée des beaux-arts is there; and it is in the heart of Quebec. I see that you have also developed partnerships with Laval University, the Friends of...
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In your opinion can this site be a meeting site? Consider all the other entities around it: there is even the Quebec Premier's Office and the Garrison Club. There are all sorts of similarities that sometimes pull in different directions. Do you think that this is a meeting site?
Mr. Juneau: I think, with all modesty, that it is THE meeting site in Canada for the moment. It is a site that holds celebrations for Canada Day and for the Quebec National Holiday, that holds winter events, that welcomes all Canadians, all organizations, and especially organizations from the neighbouring areas because it's more accessible for them. It is indeed a meeting site.
It is interesting to work in partnership with many of these people in an atmosphere of respect. As you say, it is the meeting site par excellence.
The Chairman: That was always my opinion of it. I wanted to hear your opinion.
One last question before we adjourn. I don't want to ask that your institution be done away with. This is not my intent at all. However, I would like to get my own opinion on the following question. We have a Historic Sites and Monuments Board of Canada and a National Battlefields Commission. The two overlap.
If you think about it, aren't the battlefields also historic monuments? Eventually, wouldn't it be time to...? I don't want to eliminate your job. I want to know if, at some point, it wouldn't be logical to merge these two commissions into one.
Mr. Juneau: I don't think so and I'll tell you why. First, in terms of losing our jobs, I would just like to remind you that we are all volunteers on the Commission.
The Chairman: Oh yes.
Mr. Juneau: The financial aspect is not relevant in this case. I think that we have to go back to the creation of the park which was... It's like a foundation. The Mayor of Quebec City at the time and the Governor General Earl Grey had done some fund raising. The National Battlefields Commission is the only government organization that can provide receipts for income tax and receive donations. We have a trust account with Treasury Board.
Because of that setup and because we are volunteers, we can ensure the life and preservation of this site and its ability to bring people together, that you mentioned. We feel that it is somewhat neutral. When people contact the National Battlefields Commission, when representatives from the Fête nationale des Québécois come to negotiate with us, it is easier than dealing with department officials. They know that volunteers will be making a decision for people in the area. It is hard to put a value on this but it is very important, it is fundamental.
Another point is that this location is under enormous stress. You know the area. We often say at home that several Mérici Gardens could fit in the Plains of Abraham. Requests are frequent and if the Plains were to fall into the hands of an organization with significant revenue, that would forget the importance of preserving the site as it is, there would be probleMs For example, in 10 or 15 years, we could end up with a General Motors park or something like that, just like sports arenas.
I think that the Commission as it stands, with its special status, guarantees this kind of neutrality. In the document, you see that we want to do something to celebrate our 100th anniversary. We need to plant trees, and to do so, we would like to use a species with national appeal.
We could proceed otherwise and decide that with some income each year, we could plant20 trees a year. Instead, we proposed a project to the Tree Foundation of Canada which will bring all Canadians to this site. I should also tell you that we have received many letters from people in Vancouver and all over for whom this site is somewhat like a place of pilgrimage.
We want to preserve it as such. That is why the way the Commission works and its relative neutrality, in my view, are essential.
The Chairman: When it comes to ecology and history, I tend to be conservative. So good luck.
Thank you very much to you, Mr. Juneau, and to your colleagues, for appearing.
Mr. Juneau: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for having invited us.
[English]
The Chairman: Just briefly, we will not be sitting on June 6 because, as you know, the House doesn't sit. We are not sitting on June 11 because the President of Mexico is appearing before both houses. The next sitting will be June 13. We'll hear from the National Gallery of Canada and the National Capital Commission. By June 18, Bill C-32 will have cleared the House. We'll have a briefing from the bureaucrats on Bill C-32, which is the copyright legislation, before we break. Okay?
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I'd like to remind you that a copy of Mr. Leroux's motion will be sent to you. It will be discussed on June 13.
The meeting is adjourned.