[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]
Tuesday, May 28, 1996
.1117 
[English]
The Chair: We will call the meeting to order.
I want to apologize for the delay. The finance committee was dealing with a sticky wicket question, so I hope you don't mind that I agreed to a 15-minute delay in the start of this meeting.
As you know, today we are going to welcome as our guest the Hon. Walter McLean. I'm sure we are going to enjoy the meeting, and we are privileged to have with us the Hon. Mr. McLean.
I would just like to put the meeting into perspective, because it's sort of in the time line of what took place here in Canada in 1992, in the preparation for the United Nations celebrations. You did receive a document that outlined what the United Nations Association in Canada had undertaken in preparing for the 50th anniversary celebration of the United Nations.
I think it's quite timely that we meet with and have the opportunity to consult with Mr. McLean and Mr. Globensky, so that we can have some idea as to where we might fit in as the parliamentary committee responsible for human rights. We will be dealing with the issue of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. I hope that after listening to Mr. McLean, who is going to give us a progress report on what he's been doing across this country, perhaps we'll be able to have some input.
I thought we might want to listen with three points in mind. First, in light of the United Nations Association's undertaking with respect to this celebration to come up in two years, what should the parliamentary committee do with respect to the commemoration? How might we involve perhaps the Speakers of the House of Commons and of the Senate?
Second, what kind of committee study might we want to undertake to underscore this particular event? In a prior meeting, as you will recall, we talked to the issue of the United Nations reporting procedure by Canada when requests come in to respond to particular instruments or the application of certain commitments that we have under various instruments of the United Nations. What is the reporting procedure? We have a document to that effect which Susan prepared for us, and it's quite interesting.
.1120
At the same time, with respect to those reports, there's the whole question of Canada's record that relates to the application right from the initial declaration of human rights. You have in your documents, which we have provided for you, the list of international responsibilities we committed ourselves to, such as the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide; the Universal Declaration of Human Rights; the Discrimination (Employment and Occupation) Convention; the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination; the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights; and the United Nations International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights.
Canada has ratified each of these instruments. I submitted to you a list of the dates of the proclamations of the United Nations and the dates of the Canadian ratifications. It's quite interesting when you look at that to note that it took us a minimum of four years and a maximum of ten years before we ratified each one of these instruments. Now that we've ratified them, the question is what have we done with them? So the second point would be that we want to investigate what we should be doing about that.
The third point would be perhaps national recognition. How do we stimulate the broader commemoration of the issue through various departments? What is our role in parliamentary commemoration, committee study, and national recognition? Perhaps we could listen toMr. McLean with these thoughts in mind, and we will then have a discussion with the committee members.
Mr. McLean, welcome.
[Translation]
The Honourable Walter McLean (President, Human Rights Committee, United Nations Association in Canada): I'm pleased to be at this meeting. I'm a former member of this committee and shared in the preparation of the report on the handicapped. I worked on preparing the report for the government, and the government set up Action Canada which stemmed from that report.
[English]
There are a number of things I'd like to lay out for you. I thank you very much for setting
[Translation]
the international context to celebrate the anniversary of the Declaration of Human Rights.
On this point, we are continuing the consultation process with the provinces, human rights institutions and non-government organizations.
[English]
My report today is a preliminary one. In fact, I wish to test with the committee the direction in which we are going. By the end of June we will finalize the report. Clearly, since we are looking, as you said, towards education about human rights and some actions that may be acceptable to all parts of the country and to each of the provinces, we are trying to see what is the common thread.
As you've remarked, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights was signed at the United Nations on December 10, 1948, and is one of the most important initiatives of the 20th century. Its unanimous adoption by the General Assembly was a remarkable achievement, given the divisions of our world at that time. It at once transcended the disparate political ideologies of the day, while drawing upon the universal principles inherent in diverse religious and cultural traditions.
.1125
The Universal Declaration of Human Rights, along with the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights and the International Covenant on Economic, Social, and Cultural Rights, comprised the International Bill of Human Rights.
For nearly 50 years this document - initially drafted by a Canadian jurist - has served humanity well. It has been a vibrant moral conscience for the world community. It provides international norms and standards to which the international community is expected to adhere and by which to condemn the actions of nation-states that trample the rights of their own citizens. The declaration has survived those who have deliberately attempted to undermine it by ignoring its tenets or by suggesting that it's not sufficiently culturally relevant or relative.
The declaration has inspired hundreds of international human rights conventions and declarations. You alluded to this. We think of the UN Declaration on the Elimination of Violence Against Women, the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, the UN Declaration on the Right to Development.
It has also enkindled the creation of national human rights legislation and institutions, including the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms and similar provincial codes and institutions. In fact, a number of the provincial codes,
[Translation]
for example, the code of the province of Quebec, are at the roots of the International Declaration.
[English]
The Chair: I would suggest that Quebec had the first charter, long before Canada or the other provinces.
[Translation]
Mr. McLean: Exactly.
An Honourable Member: Hear! Hear!
[English]
Mr. McLean: The values we share and aspire to - respect for the rule of law, dignity of the person, fairness and equitable treatment, tolerance, the acceptance of diversity, and the fundamental principles of democratic participation - are inherent in both our charter and the universal declaration.
It's hardly surprising to us, then, that our own fellow citizens were involved in the preparation of both instruments. You will know that John Peters Humphrey, a lawyer specializing in international law from McGill University and the first director of the United Nations Human Rights Centre, prepared the first draft of the universal declaration and went on to make substantial, if unsung, contributions to the development of international human rights norms and practices at the UN.
To the relatively few Canadians familiar with its existence, the international declaration is a somewhat ``distant and esoteric document replete with fine-sounding principles and noble aspirations''. Our challenge in these consultations, which I want to tell you about, has been to determine if there is political will and sustainable interest in creating activities leading up to and during 1998 that would inform and involve all our citizens in concrete programs of action demonstrating the practical application - where they live and work, where they study, where they play - of the universal declaration.
When the United Nations Association in Canada asked me to chair its Standing Committee on Human Rights, I made a commitment to organize a process of national consultation with citizens to seek their views on how the 50th anniversary of the signing could be commemorated in substantive ways. This process would involve ministers, federal and provincial. It would involve parliamentarians. It would involve the appropriate statutory agencies - human rights commissions, the ombudsman - and non-governmental and faith groups across the country.
As a former minister responsible for the promotion of human rights in Canada, I did not need to be reminded of the importance of soliciting input from the provinces in the process. No international convention or treaty can be put in place without the concurrence of both federal and provincial governments, as they represent the citizens of Canada.
.1130
There's a very interesting story you may be familiar with. At the time of the drafting in Paris the United Nations General Assembly was meeting. Humphrey was drafting and brought back a report to the General Assembly. To everyone's amazement, the foreign minister of Canada, Lester Pearson, abstained on a document that had been drafted by Canadians and was being promoted; and he was in the company of South Africa, Iraq, China, and other freedom-loving countries.
There was a long pause.
The Chair: I bet.
Mr. McLean: At the end came the explanation for the vote. Mr. Pearson then said something to the effect that Canada expects to vote for this, but the provinces have not yet concurred. It was a very clear reminder that without that concurrence we cannot act.
Hence my decision to visit each of the provinces.
As I mentioned, in the consultations I've held during the last eight weeks I sought first of all to talk with those of political interest to figure out whether there was political will to mark the year; then with the human rights agencies, the commissions; then with the non-governmental organizations. We applied through the United Nations Association for a modest grant from Heritage Canada to undertake a feasibility study. We've been assisted by the Charles R. Bronfman Foundation, VIA Rail, FedEx, and Stuart Realty of Quebec.
Knowing this initiative would have to be anchored by an experienced manager and organizer, and since we had already applied through Heritage Canada for the domestic human rights, I went to the International Centre for Human Rights and spoke with Mr. Broadbent, who agreed that the full-time seconded services of Peter André Globensky, a senior staff member for the centre on human rights, could be made available to the United Nations Association to coordinate this feasibility study. Max Yalden and the Canadian Human Rights Commission have also committed some staff time to assisting us.
To date our consultations have involved stakeholders across the country. In these weeks we've been in fifteen cities and in all ten provinces. We've met thirty ministers and parliamentarians, including premiers, and in many cases the staff of premiers. We've also met all national and provincial human rights commissioners, with the ombudsmen or their senior representatives. So we've touched all the agencies. We've met over 200 non-governmental organizations, including those with social justice and human rights concerns, international perspectives; faith communities, trade unions, academic institutions, bar associations.
In addition to our direct consultations we've engaged the services, through a short-term contract, of South House Exchange, an Ottawa consultancy, which has organized a number of Ottawa-based focus groups to permit the solicitation of views from several national organizations, since we were running out of time to see them all personally. Additionally, approximately150 questionnaires have been distributed to organizations across the country that couldn't come to the provincial consultations. We've placed the questionnaire on the Internet through the United Nations Association in Canada home page.
We also plan to take advantage of the forthcoming national conventions and conferences to complete our consultations. So the annual meetings of the bar association, the municipalities, the statutory human rights agencies and others are opportunities to test it and say, this is coming in 1998, so can we begin, within existing resources, to have a strategy to market.
As chair of the human rights committee of the United Nations Association I'll present, then, a final report and recommendations emanating from these consultations to both the Minister of Canadian Heritage and the Minister of Foreign Affairs, and also to the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration. In addition, our preliminary findings will, as you've suggested, Madam Chair, be shared with the Senate and the House committee on foreign affairs since there are these dimensions.
.1135
Let me turn to what we've found to date. We did not know what interest we would find, and in a moment Peter Globensky can give you some of his reactions. The response was beyond polite. We found interest in every province, without exception, and despite whatever we might have thought, we found people very forthcoming.
We found that at the political level it was felt that this was part of the provincial aspirations of all governments in their own orbits and in their own mandates. The offices of the ombudsmen offered to carry the message in their public presentations and literature. Every human rights commission or council in every province in Canada, without exception, has an educational mandate and is prepared to incorporate this. For example, Mary MacLellan, of the Nova Scotia commission, volunteered to provide leadership in programs on public education and coordination of activities for that year.
Perhaps the most remarkable response came from many non-governmental groups. Virtually all responded positively when asked if they could include a significant reference to the universal declaration in their ongoing program in 1998. Many expressed a strong desire to participate in alliance with others as well as in stand-alone events to familiarize Canadians, their own citizens and their own provincial colleagues with the declaration.
The desire was strong to allow people to tell their own stories and to talk about the contributions that their fellow citizens have made to foster a spirit of human rights in their own communities. In many cases they want to sing about it, and they want to use art to tell the story of their own people, how they have contributed and how it is being lived out.
As well as the story of the contribution of John Humphrey, there are so many other people who have worked on other aspects of human rights. There were representatives of faith communities who spoke of their contacts with those in the Third World, where rights are normally seen as a threat to the established order. There were representatives of trade unions and of aboriginal communities who reminded us that not all Canadian obligations under international treaties have been fulfilled.
Dominant, however, among the hundreds of creative ideas and approaches we heard about across the country was the consistent preoccupation with youth and how you create programming that addresses their concerns and communicates the fundamentals of the international declaration to young people. Ideas were numerous, creative and exciting, and focused on themes and programs topical to today's young people.
[Translation]
For example, during the celebrations for the 50th anniversary of the United Nations, the most efficient program was the musical one.
[English]
Those who have produced MuchMusic have said they would like to do a similar thing on the whole theme of human rights. They have a very big communication with young people.
Varied as the ideas have been, the bottom line was consistent and the same: we have to reach out to a new generation more effectively and communicate the values of equality, equity, non-discrimination, acceptance, and tolerance.
Capitalizing on Canada's deserved international reputation in this arena, proposals were put forth for international action as well that the Government of Canada could undertake to mark this year. Also frequent were the declarations of interest in the use of the electronic superhighway, the Internet, to inform and engage the debate on human rights.
.1140
Finally, many Canadians told us that if this commemoration is going to work, the anniversary is going to have to be marked with activities of substance, not just with some blue and white balloons but with a discussion in the villages, dans la population générale.
The first comment to us was that a top down approach will not work. It needs to be organized in the provinces and within the provinces in a subregional way. It has to come from the community. Something laid on from central Canada will not work; it will not be appropriate. We were told repeatedly that national and provincial structures created to mark the year are essential, but their role is to act as a clearing house for information, to provide resources, to excite and incite but not to organize the community activities.
Premièrement, a number of existing national organizations, such as the United Nations Association in Canada, are prepared to organize and implement specific projects. Secondly, the predominant role of the national structure to commemorate the year would be to develop a communications strategy. During the 50th anniversary of the UN, there were many activities. But there was no communication to say, for example, this is happening in this village. Never mind across the province, they did not even know in the next village what was happening. While there were good events, if you don't tell the story and retell it, after awhile it is not seen as central.
My conviction is that today human rights are in danger of being seen as a special interest. I am of the disabled. I am of the mentally disabled. I am of the physically disabled. I am of the children. I am of the aged. I am of women. I am of refugees. I am of gender. I am of this or that. And one of the very happy events,
[Translation]
during the meetings of all non-government groups, was the fact that the groups are all equal amongst themselves.
[English]
We need to arrive at the principle that human rights are not an interest group. There is a reason our nation is the most sought after to live in. When we poll inside Canada and people are asked what they like about their community, city, province or country, they say we like it because of the respect for human rights.
There is the danger that because of economic downsizing and restructuring, people are questioning whether we can afford human rights. The question is whether we throw the baby out with the bath water. At this moment, this anniversary presents an opportunity to affirm fundamental values for our families, for our communities and for our people.
We would be interested in your response. Peter, maybe you'd like to introduce these. What we'd like to do
[Translation]
at this point, to consider certain issues with a view to our final report.
[English]
These are in the first draft. They are some of our recommendations, with the background I've given you, as to what we think might happen. Clearly, it will be helpful if we consult with you. You can help us by telling us if you think they're appropriate, if you think we should strengthen them, amend them, or add to them. Whatever your response, it may also help us when we present the report to say we have had this consultation.
.1145
I appreciate your willingness, Madam Chair, to let us do this. Peter, maybe you'd like to start, and then we will go to questions, answers and discussion.
[Translation]
Mr. Peter Globensky (Executive Coordinator, The Declaration Project, the United Nations Association in Canada): As Mr. McLean has indicated, the final report will be ready at the end of June. It's important to emphasize that today's presentation is really a preliminary one and that in the course of our discussions with your committee, we are looking for ideas to improve the quality of the report. We also want to discuss the importance of the recommendations which will be submitted to you today.
[English]
We have a number of these observations and recommendations, Madam Chair, that we would want to discuss with you at greater length.
First is the principle that the Government of Canada commit itself to marking the50th anniversary of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights in 1998 and that it also encourage the provinces to do so. Certainly this would build on the momentum we have seen to date in our consultations.
Secondly, and perhaps as important with respect to structure, at the earliest opportunity a national committee or commission should be established. It should be staffed by a modest secretariat of paid and seconded individuals. It would assist the provincial governments, the national government and all Canadians in organizing events for 1998 and would do so over the period of a year.
As Mr. McLean has indicated in a number of presentations across the country, there are specific days we as Canadians celebrate. We celebrate International Women's Day on March 8, the day to eliminate discrimination on the March 21, National Aboriginal Day on June 21. These present opportunities for international year programming to be marked and supported.
We suggest, as a result of this previous recommendation, that such a national body, committee, or commission be appropriately financed to permit an effective support presence in all regions of the country. We also suggest financial assistance be made available by the Government of Canada using a matching dollar formula so, for example, provinces, foundations and the private sector could also be encouraged to take part in these commemoration events and activities.
We note with some interest that the Department of Canadian Heritage human rights division budget has been decreased over the past few years. We strongly recommend that at least for these coming two years the budget be maintained so interest in the anniversary of the universal declaration can be reflected.
There are a number of important activities that such a national structure or national committee could undertake. Again, to underscore Mr. McLean's presentation, it is not so much to control and coordinate as it is to incite and excite. We have indicated in our presentation the functions such a national committee could fulfil. It is certainly most important to recognize that it has a supportive role to play. It should act as a clearing house for the sharing and dissemination of information at a national level regarding the universal declaration and the activities proposed. It should also assist in the development of sectoral committees related to arts and culture, the labour movement, education, law, government and service organizations. We have met with many such organizations across this country and they have indicated a strong interest in organizing activities of support.
As well, we feel it is important such a structure identify potential sources of funding for community activities and initiatives organized by national organizations. There are a number of important functions that such a national structure could play. Again, its primary role is to support regional and provincial initiatives where most of these activities -
.1150
The Chair: Mr. Globensky, or the chair, do you have a list of these so that as parliamentarians of this committee we could perhaps look at them and comment? Would you like a comment on these particular initiatives, or do you just want general comments from us?
Mr. Globensky: We do have a list, Madam Chair.
[Translation]
The problem is that the list is in English only because the translation hasn't been completed. If you wish, we can distribute the list but, unfortunately, it is in English only.
The Chair: That's fine. You've already started the presentation in French and we have interpretation. Would you please distribute it?
[English]
In the interests of our being effective and to enable us to respond to your recommendations, I think the list would be helpful.
Mr. Globensky: Certainly.
The Chair: Thank you very much.
Mr. Globensky: You're very welcome.
The Chair: I believe you were in the process of talking about the budget from Heritage Canada.
Mr. Globensky: Yes.
[Translation]
You'll find the recommendations on page 10 of the report we have just distributed.
[English]
Mr. McLean: I think, Madam Chair, if we want to look at these recommendations we should maybe just go back. There are some small corrections that are -
The Chair: I think we are taking these in the spirit in which this presentation has been made. This is a consultative meeting, and these are some of the thoughts you've had, and you want to hear what we have to say about them. There is nothing definitive in here yet, from our perspective anyway.
Mr. McLean: Maybe we can -
[Translation]
The Chair: You were going to start on page 9?
[English]
Mr. McLean: Maybe I'll just go back and then Peter can continue in a moment. If you could turn to page 10 where we start the recommendations, we're adding words so it says ``That the Government of Canada commit itself and the provinces individually to marking...''. This change is to reflect the commitment at two levels.
In the next paragraph, on the second line, it will say ``to assist provinces and their municipalities, organizations and people...''.
The Chair: Where are you talking about?
Mr. McLean: This is the second paragraph on page 10.
The Chair: Oh, I see. It says ``to assist Canadians''.
Mr. McLean: Yes. We would say ``to assist the provinces and their municipalities, organizations and people''.
The Chair: I see. Okay, thank you.
Mr. McLean: Then in the fourth paragraph we would say ``using a matching-dollar formula''.
In the fifth paragraph on the second line we would say ``increased to reflect interest'' rather than ``increased to accommodate interest''.
The Chair: Okay.
Mr. McLean: Then in the sixth paragraph, on the last line, if we could strike out the words ``and include the following'', we would start a sentence that reads: ``Functions of national and provincial committees could include...''
Then we were into the part Mr. Globensky was outlining. I think we had gotten down as far as...
Mr Globensky: We had identified, Madam Chair, at the bottom of page 10, the five specific functions that...
[Translation]
On page 10 we have identified the functions this national committee and the provincial committees could adopt as their mandate for the coming years.
The Chair: The first was...
[English]
Mr. Globensky: It says:
- : To act as a clearing house for the sharing and dissemination of information regarding the
Universal Declaration...
- : To then develop appropriate sectoral committees -
The Chair: In French...
[English]
He is not getting my message.
Mr. Globensky:
- : To identify potential sources of funding -
The Chair: We have the document in front of us. It is in English. So I would prefer you to outline it in French as you're doing it. Thank you.
[Translation]
M. Globensky: I'll try to do the translation right away.
Madam Chair, it is important to point out that all activities and responsibilities of the committee which are identified here are activities of coordination and support. This is not a national committee that will be directing all the activities planned for the year 1998. That's all we tried to emphasize in the report. These are functions suggested for this commission or national committee.
As I indicated previously, we should also perhaps try to identify funding sources at the national, provincial, foundation and private sector levels with a view to preparing all the information, whether its electronic or United Nations' documents, for distribution across Canada to the organizing committees at the provincial and local levels.
If you don't mind, I will tell you what other recommendations we have identified.
The Chair: Go ahead, Sir.
Mr. Globensky: We also think it's important to identify Canadian contributions like John Humphrey's and others who have tried to make their contribution to the development of human rights in Canada.
We're still attempting to organize a meeting, within the next two weeks, with the chairman of Canada Post to discuss preparing a special stamp for Mr. Humphrey.
The Chair: Fine.
Mr. Globensky: We also recommend that the minister for Heritage Canada try to convince that department's provincial counterparts to organize a conference at the national level to discuss the more important aspects concerning human rights before 1998.
We have tried to identify the suggested themes. As we're in the decade of human rights education, we recommend that the ministers discuss the activities for the year of the Declaration in 1998. We must consider federal and provincial budget cuts and the impact they will have on human rights.
At the international level, we have identified five possibilities for the Canadian government. As Canada has played an important role on the international scene in the area of human rights and taking into account the lack of interest at the international level, it's important to have on-going programs to convince the United Nations that it's very important to organize activities to emphasize the importance of human rights at the international level.
First, it's important for the government of Canada to identify a special ambassador to the United Nations to promote...
[English]
Mr. McLean: In the English translation, there are some editing suggestions. We've changed the wording here. Peter, you could go on in French in a moment. Paragraph 2 on page 12 says:
- That the Minister of Foreign Affairs appoint a special envoy to the United Nations and to the
Commissioner for Human Rights to assist him in undertaking initiatives to mark the
Anniversary;
[Translation]
As time is advancing and we have the document in front of us, I'd like to suggest going to questions for my colleagues.
.1200
I must admit that my first reaction was to ask myself how we could honour John Humphrey. I for one think he's an important man and this committee could consider how his name could be used in that context, specially with our youth.
[English]
Yes, Andy.
Mr. Scott (Fredericton - York - Sunbury): He can be added to the list when they -
The Chair: Oh, yes. Well, fine. It's a free-flow thing.
But we'll start with you, Mr. Bernier.
[Translation]
Mr. Bernier (Mégantic - Compton - Stanstead): This is the first time I've had the opportunity of meeting you, Mr. McLean, and I think the same goes for my new colleagues in this legislature.
The Chair: We know one another very well, because we went to Nairobi together.
Mr. Bernier: I hope you invite us along in the future. We're like Ulysses, we like to travel too.
As this is the first opportunity I've had to meet you, I'd like to put a few questions about the organization. I have read the information that was sent to us by the research service and I did a quick calculation. For 1994-95, there's a budget of $2 million in cash and in kind that you obtained from the private sector. I don't want us to go about detailing the budget of your organization...
The Chair: I'm sorry to interrupt.
[English]
but that's the budget and the usage that was suggested or used two years ago.
[Translation]
Mr. Bernier: That's what I'd like him to clarify.
[English]
The Chair: Okay.
[Translation]
Mr. Bernier: I'm getting to it, if I can complete my question. I don't want to review the past, but I would like to know how much of a budget the organization has available. I know the money has already been spent, but you're asking the government to support your planned initiatives for 1998. I want to know how much that's going to cost me and how much you estimate the cost of your planned initiatives will be.
As we're talking money, you have met the leaders of all the provinces, I think. Have all the provinces accepted to meet with you. Have they already shown an intent to cooperate financially to activities all across Canada? I'll come back with the suggestions I'd like to make later, but I'll let you answer those financial questions first.
Mr. McLean: Good question. The figures in the report concern the celebration of the50th anniversary of the United Nations.
[English]
Some $1.5 million of the $2 million was special funding for the celebration of the 50th anniversary.
[Translation]
The budget of the United Nations Association in Canada is small and similar to that of many non-government organizations and it was even decreased.
[English]
Across Canada, the local associations vary in strength, and the financial capacity depends on the contributions of members and some fund-raising, with very small core funding from government.
The Chair: Mr. McLean, I gather it would be accurate, in putting this into perspective, that while the government provided $1.5 million in core funding, an additional $165,000 was obtained from five provincial governments, and $1.7 million was collected through the private sector, both in cash and in kind. The record is clear. There was a shared participation.
Thank you.
.1205
Mr. McLean: It is that experience of shared responsibility that we are trying to consider for this next anniversary, but it is not the same. This is specifically federal-provincial.
Secondly, the provincial governments,
[Translation]
with the instruments of the Human Rights Commission and each commission including the Quebec one, are preparing a part of the human rights educational program. That's a responsibility of the provincial commissions. We're being asked whether it's possible to increase that budget in the province on the occasion of the human rights anniversary. But
[English]
at this part of the consultation, we are determining if there is will.
Mr. Bernier: Okay.
Mr. McLean: Then we would have to look and say, if there is will, what budgets already exist and what would be a necessary extra?
[Translation]
Mr. Bernier: So your association didn't make any estimate of what the national budget should be either for the operation of your association or the different events to celebrate the 50th anniversary of the Declaration in 1998.
Mr. McLean: No.
Mr. Bernier: There is no specific request. You are simply saying to the Canadian and provincial governments: "Tell us what you intend to do". That's it?
Mr. Globensky: That's sort of it. As Mr. McLean tried to explain, the will has to be there. The second stage would be to build national and provincial political will and identify the resources necessary for the operation of a national committee. The feasibility study was not expected to identify any specific budget for the operation of a committee.
When we started, it was not expected there would be the recommendation for setting up a national committee on the activities surrounding the 50th anniversary of the Declaration. The consultation process led to the conclusion it was important to have some presence at the national level and discussions were held with the federal government to see whether the resources were available.
Mr. Bernier: May I make one last comment, Madam Chair?
The Chair: Your last one. Your time is up, but I'm so nice I'll grant you the favour.
Mr. Bernier: It's a comment, but at the same time, a suggestion for 1998. As you said, if we're to focus on a target group in Canada, if part of our population is to be made aware of the evolution of human rights across the world and in Canada, that group is our youth and there are several reasons for that.
One must understand that in the world, the people most affected by the absence of democracy or economic problems are children, first and foremost. We have heard the eloquent testimony of young Kielburger, who's not from your area, but almost, Mr. McLean, and he has shown us that there is an awful problem there. There's also everything surrounding the child sex trade.
I think our children must know that the freedom that exists in most western countries, including ours, can't be taken for granted. The danger is in taking for granted that democratic rights and human rights are here to stay.
.1210
So I would hope that with provincial cooperation, since education is of provincial jurisdiction, considerable effort will be made so that each young person in this country may know what the situation was some years ago before the Declaration and what it is now not only here but across the world.
[English]
The Chair: Okay, with that, I think your point on the vigilance that was required is vital, and if you don't mind, I'm going to ask Ms Augustine for her questions because she has to leave, and then perhaps we could get an answer en route, please. Then it's Mr. Scott.
Ms Augustine (Etobicoke - Lakeshore): Thank you Madam Chair, I appreciate this. As chair of the women's caucus I have to be at the meeting for 12:30 p.m.
I found your presentation very interesting and enlightening, and I want to offer you congratulations on the vast extent of your consultation and on the groups you attempted to consult with.
I am also pleased to see that you've focused on youth or that you've heard about the focus on youth, because I think this is where a lot of the emphasis should be placed. I think that Canada is a signatory to a number of international conventions...it seems to be something in airy-fairy land.
I think it's very important that your communication strategy does include having the Canadian public fully aware of the role we play in those international settings and fully aware of those agreements we've signed so that this anniversary of the declaration becomes one where the general public has an idea about the background.
The circulating of...and I know this was at the back of one of the documents that was given to us. I think this declaration should be reading material. This should be out there, and somewhere and somehow if you can get the media involved, if you can get the involvement of MuchMusic, so that young people can read the declaration and see the different clauses and what is involved in that declaration...
I also want to commend the process that stressed the community responses. Too often when things are done from the top and the committee is then asked to participate, the enthusiasm and the interest are not there, but if the communities could in turn think of what would be best done in the community to bring about that awareness, I think this is where you should be looking at spending any kind of moneys and resources.
But I want to ask a more substantive question about the whole business of funding forUN programs. I notice that in your recommendation you are suggesting several ways in which Canada can work with the UN to do this, that, the other, and the next. And we know...
I spent a week or so in Geneva with Mr. Scott, who is here, with Sanjeev, who is sitting at the back there as our resource person -
Mr. Ménard (Hochelaga - Maisonneuve): Et moi-même.
Ms Augustine: - and with Mr. Ménard, oui. We heard over and over that there were no pencils, no paper and different things, that they were operating on shoestring budgets. If we are going to get them involved, how can we ensure that the other nations participating in this pay their fair share, including our neighbour to the south?
The Chair: Do you want to place your question, please?
Ms Augustine: My question is, first, about how we ensure that the Canadian public... I was looking at the national conference of ministers; you're suggesting that maybe the heritage minister... I'm looking at all of the different parts to that suggestion, the bringing together of provincial representatives, etc. It seems to me that there are so many vast and differing areas of responsibility in that recommendation on page 11, I would ask that you think that portion through, regarding education around human rights and how we get that involved in the school system and where and whose responsibility it is.
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Basically my question is on the whole issue of commitment to funding.
The Chair: I think I placed three points in front of you.
Ms Augustine: Yes.
The Chair: If you think this idea is important, if you think it's important to teach young people civics and civicism and the importance of vigilance, which was pointed out by Mr. Bernier, so that you keep the focus on the value of human rights to the Canadian lifestyle and value system, then you should ask yourself some questions.
Do we support this? Do we see a role for the parliamentary commemoration? Do we see any need for the committee to be involved in any particular way? In terms of national recognition, how do you feel about the idea of John Humphrey being acknowledged? Maybe we should be doing something special with the Speakers of the House.
I really wanted us to focus, because it's such a huge area and the amount of consultation that's been done has been very impressive, as you pointed out. It's not up to us to respond to all those things. What is important is to say we like the idea and we think it's important that we do this. It's necessary for young people to know it didn't just grow up because we wished for it; we worked at it and we have 50 years of history.
Does it have to be maintained, yes or no? That's the kind of thing I think we need, and if there's clarification from Mr. McLean and Mr. Globensky, that's where we have to head.
Ms Augustine: I'll end with this, but I also want to underscore Minister Axworthy's statement in April 1996. You have more or less quoted it here. He said that the ``celebration of this important anniversary...should not be an occasion for complacency or sentimentality''.
In other words, I was trying to get around to the whole notion that we don't want this to be a sentimental thing where we pull out the flag and acknowledge this. It has to be far more than just a celebration and a sentimental review of the 50th anniversary.
That is where I was getting around to in my circular motion.
The Chair: Thank you very much.
Mr. McLean: Maybe we should comment quickly on that and on Mr. Bernier's comment on the children, which is very timely. An area on which there is general agreement is that of children, youth, and women and the question of those rights.
Ms Augustine, you rightly raised the question of provincial responsibility in education. You will notice we are still working on wording because we know how important it is that we not get into a federal-provincial dispute on this issue. In Quebec, we find that the provincial government and the organizations value human rights very highly. There are other issues on the table, but this is not one of them.
The question then is whether there is a design that permits us to share resources. Given the difficulty of funding, we can have translation done and common documents in English and French prepared nationally instead of each province preparing them. If we could communicate what this program is, but let the material and the organization be done in each province, then maybe we could avoid that.
I wanted to say a word about how important your comment is. Part of my commitment to this is to the fragile situation of the United Nations. For eight years I was parliamentary delegate to the United Nations, working on the human rights commission and on apartheid and other issues.
As you know, the Secretary General had to borrow from peacekeeping funds to keep the UN operating. Canada pays on the first day of every year its... During the human rights briefings earlier this year, the officers responsible for human rights said the lights go out on the commission on June 30. So what you saw - no pencils, no water - at the commission in Geneva is a reflection of the fact that Canada fought for the appointment of the High Commissioner for Human Rights. The human rights commissioner has no budget.
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There are many governments and many nations in the world that don't have any interest in human rights, and they don't have great support for the United Nations generally, least of all since human rights are under all of the security activities and under most of the specialized agencies. You'll find this attacked. Therefore, as I see it, this occasion for us to remind ourselves of the importance of the United Nations and its declarations and to give some international leadership on this, as well as working at home, is part of an opportunity that presents itself.
The Chair: Mr. McLean, because we have a time problem here, I'm going to ask Mr. Ménard, Mr. Scott, and Mr. MacLellan to ask their questions, and then perhaps you could you give a response. If any of them has a second question we'll come back with it in the same order.
[Translation]
Mr. Ménard: I have four comments to make. I would really like our committee to go visit the United Nations Association in Canada because it was a revelation - Ms Augustine has forgotten I was in Geneva, but I was there nonetheless - to find out how important it is for parliamentarians to follow what's going on.
I know that the United Nations Association in Canada is the official depository for all documentation flowing from the United Nations and I think that, as a committee, it's in our interest to have better ties with you and be very aware of the services you offer.
Perhaps we could organize a meeting in your offices in June, as we did for the Handicapped Persons' Secretariat. Mr. Bernier probably remembers that.
I believe that, as a committee, we should immediately pass three resolutions. Personally, I think that if this debate is to raise any awareness amongst parliamentarians, it is absolutely essential to seek to have a whole day's debate in the House on the Declaration. All the parties represented in the House could give their views and that would create momentum. It would be broadcast on television and show that this is an important issue for parliamentarians.
It's also important, I think, to link the Declaration to the administration of justice and show what international tools can mean to change things in a concrete way. We have very special examples and we should remember that Senator Kinsella himself has managed to make progress by using certain international pacts. I don't know if you were minister at that time, but he personally undertook international action using the provisions of a certain number of treaties and that allowed the government to move forward legally.
If we want this to be concrete for people, there must be a linkage between the presence of international tools and the concrete possibility of amending national legislation.
We should also remember, as members, that four times a year we can communicate with all our voters. If you invite each and every parliamentarian to promote these activities in their householders or mention the Declaration of Human Rights, you'll have publicity in each and every household in Canada.
The final essential linkage to be made is the one between the Universal Declaration and economic rights. We must recognize a particular mission. We have had international treaties and the Declaration has been around for 50 years, but that did not prevent the events at Tiananmen, in China.
We also have the responsibility of saying that in coming years, choices will have to be made between economic rights and promoting human rights. Those who think that it's not a matter of choice or exclusion should tell us how those linkages can be made. Without wanting to heap any undue blame on the government, I must say that in certain circumstances the Canadian government was rather timid in promoting human rights when faced with an economic imperative.
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It is important to say that we should not be put in a situation where we must choose one or the other and that both should cohabitate.
That's all I had to say, Madam Chair. I have applied to be elected to the Canada-Turkey Parliamentary Association. So wish me luck.
The Chair: Good luck. It's a beautiful country.
Mr. Ménard: Thank you.
The Chair: Enjoy your return trip.
Mr. Ménard: We haven't left yet, Madam Chair.
The Chair: Mr. Scott.
[English]
Mr. Scott: Before Mr. Ménard has to leave, let me add that perhaps we could encourage provincial assemblies to facilitate a similar debate on the same day. Given that it requires provincial concurrence, it seems to be an appropriate way for the nation to be engaged.
I welcomed the reference to blue and white balloons. In my case, I also have difficulty with blue, but...
Mr. McLean: I was thinking of a UN colour.
Some hon. members: Oh, oh!
Mr. McLean: Or Presbyterian. I mean, there are several...
Mr. Scott: In any case, I suggest that perhaps the municipalities are one of the institutions that should very specifically be engaged in this. I urge the group to consider the possibility of kicking off an exercise among municipalities in Hampton, New Brunswick. This is a community that claims to be the birthplace not only of Mr. Humphrey but also of Mr. Fairweather, who is a human rights advocate of some significant reputation. And it's not far from the birthplace of Mr. Kinsella, who has been mentioned. I would suggest that there's probably something in the water, but it's also the birthplace of Mrs. Wayne.
Some hon. members: Oh, oh!
Mr. Scott: And you needn't comment.
We mentioned the possibility of actually having the debate a year in advance. I think it's important that we lead up to our activities and our attention rather than wondering the day after what we can do next.
Finally, I suggest that one of the best ways to include younger Canadians in this discussion is to have them be the facilitators of the debate among adults, rather than the other way round, which is conventionally the case. Specifically, I propose that the challenge program or some equivalent kind of program be employed next summer to engage a number of young Canadians to go around the country setting up this project so that it can commence in the fall, leading to the day a year later.
Very specifically, I think the least threatening way and the least - sometimes I would use the word ``smug'' but I'm not sure that's the right word, and I can't think of one and we're short on time. The least threatening way to approach older Canadians is often with younger Canadians. They seem to be encouraged more, rather than told and so on. Anyway, I don't think there's a question in that, but I'd like to put all those ideas on the record.
The Chair: Thank you very much.
Russ MacLellan, please.
Mr. MacLellan (Cape Breton - The Sydneys): Thank you. I have just one point,Madam Chair. I have a very real concern here. I think this could be a problem if we don't handle it in the right way. Even though it's a celebration and we're celebrating the 50th anniversary of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights in 1998, first we have to focus on what it is we want to achieve. If we try to get too many messages, we're going to ruin the messages we most want to give.
I think the message we most want to give is that we want more progress on human rights in the future.
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I think there's going to be a tendency here, of which we have to be careful, for us to focus too much on the celebration of the 50 years of the declaration. If we do that, we give a message perhaps that we've progressed on human rights to a satisfactory extent, which I don't think we have, frankly. I think it's a tribute to the United Nations that we've done as much as we have, and heaven help us if we didn't have the United Nations to do what it has done.
But the abuses are legion, and I think we have to focus on that. I think it's an opportunity to really focus people's attention on what human rights are, such as young people, particularly in the schools. I think as far as the provinces are concerned, the education system is the key. One should be asking children what they think human rights are. What is a human right? It's this sort of thing. One should be educating them on the needs and the focus that they, as adults, should be following.
I think what we have to do is to say that we've come a long way but, boy, we have a long way to go. I just wanted to get the witnesses' feeling on that.
The Chair: Thank you very much.
I would like to add, if I may, that human rights are so fundamental to our existence. It is only too recently, as late as Beijing, when we started to reaffirm the universality of human rights for women as rights for all people. We are on this planet, and we have an equality of rights for all. As you point out - I think all of you have said the same thing - we've gone so far, but we have lots of places to go. It's in evolution and it's also a protection.
My concern for Canada, frankly, is that we have been the country of immigrants for quite some time. We are now taking immigrants in from different parts of the world that we have not been used to integrating into our country. They come with - I'm not saying they have wrong values - different experiences.
But we have a value system that has evolved in Canada flowing from the Charter of Rights. It seems to me that this education is fundamental to the enhancement of equality, the value of Canadian life and the respect for Canadian law, which flows from the issues of the principles of fairness, equality, the treatment of others and the respect for differences. All those flow from the universal principles that you find declared in human rights.
I'd like to see us work with school trustees, school boards and the ministers of education to ensure that your committee looks to that involvement so that civics and civicism, and the principles of democracy, which are so fragile if they are not followed through on, are part and parcel of this whole process. That's where the children can be so involved.
I would like to make sure that when you take children to the Canadian Museum of Civilization, which is what civilization is and what it has evolved into, you can see the universal declaration and the Canadian charter. You can see the evolution of all the different charters of the different provinces. You can see the common value system for Canadians right across this land, from coast to coast to coast. I think that's vital.
I'd like to see some permanent kind of exhibit come out that's not fuzzy-wuzzy. I love the kind of thing... This is very precious and fragile, and it needs protection. This is how civilization has evolved, and you have the challenge to, first, maintain it, and second, ensure its survival.
I also feel we should give some consideration to the involvement of the Speakers of both the House of Commons and the Senate so they can work with their fellow Speakers in the houses of parliament across the land to live life and breath to the suggestions of Mr. Scott and Mr. Ménard. They should also involve the municipalities so that you can have, from the top instance, the chief staff of our Canadian Parliament, both those Speakers, involved in the promotion of this value system for ourselves.
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Last, but far from least, I still believe that this committee, which received a report a year ago on the reporting mechanism to the United Nations... If we have a body that is central to the maintenance of these values worldwide, it is the United Nations; therefore, you have to be respectful of the covenants that have flowed from it. How has Canada been respectful of those covenants and applied the principles behind all those covenants, which comes from Mr. Bernier saying there is a relationship between the economy and human rights?
What have we done today to respect that? This is as we hear about Thailand boats, Filipino sailors and Romanian stowaways being thrown overboard, yet we don't have any rights to prosecute here in Canada unless some other country complains. Well, if you can interfere where fish are concerned, you can interfere where human life is concerned. The question becomes: at what point does one have responsibilities, both national and international, in the expression and support of human rights? I think there is a role for the committee to look at that.
That being said, I think you can get the general sense from this committee that there is strong support, I would think.
Mr. Bernier, a last word, then perhaps your response, and we will close this meeting.
[Translation]
Mr. Bernier: I'd add a suggestion. We should ask the committee, the government and the Canadian prime minister to put this point on the agenda of the June conference. The prime minister will be meeting his provincial counterparts and we are aware that the budgetary process of all parliaments, provincial and federal, normally gets underway in the fall. We would like government authorities to identify amounts in their budgets for 1998 and it takes at least a year to set this kind of thing up.
The fall of 1996 should be the preferred period for all governments to make decisions. In June, perhaps the prime minister could apprise his counterparts of the importance of that anniversary and try to obtain...
The Chair: Mr. Bernier, do you want the committee to write a letter to the prime minister and suggest that?
Mr. Bernier: Yes.
The Chair: Is the committee agreed? Yes. So we'll send the letter. Thank you very much.
[English]
Mr. McLean.
Mr. McLean: Thank you very much. Let me say that I think that last consensus action to invite the Prime Minister to raise the matter with the premiers would at least start the process at the government level from the cabinet office thinking about the opportunity there.
I agree with Mr. Bernier that the question of budgeting and planning in advance in a time of scarce resources is extremely important. We are always realizing that there are very few new resources coming, and they're usually coming from somebody else, so there needs to be a lot of discussion.
I was making notes of Mr. Ménard's helpful comment. I think it would be a very helpful opportunity if, for example, the committee was to meet the officers and staff of the United Nations Association in Canada.
The association, I can say, has suffered massively. It was the educational arm that was mentioned. First of all, the funding for the department of public information in New York used to ask the United Nations Association in Canada to do public education. That budget was removed. The Department of Foreign Affairs has systematically reduced funding to do public education, as its budget has been reduced.
So the net result is very few staff and dedicated volunteers, who need some encouragement.
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So I take that and say that just showing an interest in the association will be very welcome.
The links between international and national are very well taken, and we'll try to strengthen that. You've helped us see that we shouldn't be so sensitive on that issue.
As for the MPs publicizing this, I'm well aware that if members of Parliament choose to, particularly if there's an all-party consensus, then we would not be confronting each other, but this is something for general agreement. Then members of Parliament can use mailings, householder and things like radio and television opportunities. Depending on the amount of consensus, they may feel freer to do that.
There's the question of Mr. Scott's suggestion of trying to encourage. We could take that up. You may be in a position as a committee, or through a suggestion to the Prime Minister in your letter, concerning simultaneous debates on December 10, to kick it off in advance and say we're looking ahead. Say that this year on December 10 we say that next year on December 10, in 1997, we will begin. It would be a year, from December to December. Say this year you said here is a year's advance and you were able to get each of the sitting legislatures or some statement from the governments and the opposition parties in the House. This could help people see that this is central to Canada, not a special interest group.
As for the municipalities, I take that very seriously. I think the school boards and the municipal leadership, the mayors, are very important.
As for Hampton, I like the idea. The minister in New Brunswick is already addressing it, because they have an ownership of this. And we met Senator Kinsella.
As for the year in advance, absolutely. Here's what we are looking at. The best thing we've heard is that we have a year in which we'll see the many facets of human rights. We'll take the day, week, year, Labour Day, law day, refugee day, development week, women, and particularly the youth and children aspect.
Your thought about the challenge program is excellent. On the national committee, for the50th anniversary, we had 70 young people for the summer. It was the most exciting part, because we had many good ideas and nobody was selling them. These young people went out and did a wonderful job and helped lift that off. So we have flagged, if we actually made that a part of the proposal, in advance that they can go into the communities.
Mr. MacLellan has asked about the message, and I take that very seriously. I think it's substantive. Yes, we've come this far, but the implementation and the machinery should not be allowed to erode. That's the question.
What many people are saying to us is this. In the cutbacks, yes, we have the law, but nobody is seeing that the spirit of the law and the fact of the law is being implemented, which is hard and difficult for political leaders because these are tough times.
So consider that particular question: what is the message? I think the fundamental message is that human rights are in the mainstream for the citizens of this land. We see the other parts of the world. We see the danger of them being characterized as special interest groups. We can use this occasion to say for a whole year that we see there are many aspects of human rights, but they are one.
Madam Chairman, the Vienna women's rights are human rights. This will be the fifth anniversary of that declaration. It's the fifth anniversary of the Vienna affirmations about refugees, violence and children.
So there are many things that are just beginning. I like your suggestion very much of the museum with the culture. There's the sense of civilization with many museums, art galleries. We have many artists who can pick up the theme and bring it out graphically. We need to take the words and bring them down in a way such that people can hear them and can see them acted out.
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We thank you very much for your encouragement. We have a deadline of June 30, but we also have to do the writing. So we have 30 more days to collect information, but you have helped us sharpen our thinking on a number of aspects.
We're going to do some pre-briefing with Minister Axworthy and with other ministers, and with the foreign affairs committee in the middle of June. We will do the same kind of exercise from their perspective. Then we will say what we have heard and where we are going. We've tried to have an open consultative process, and there are no particular secrets here.
The question of the level of financing is one that would have to be answered by political leadership. How much political will is there? Where are the resources, and what can be used out of existing resources, and what is needed to augment those?
So thank you very much.
The Chair: I want to thank you both very much. I would like to recommend to the committee that we deposit a first report to the House of Commons on our views on this matter.
[Translation]
This will be the first report of the committee and we'll table it in the House as many other committees have already done.
[English]
So I would ask for your agreement on the principle of depositing a first report. Thank you very much.
I want to assure you that you will have the interest and the ear of this committee. We will watch with a great deal of hope the move forward and the financial support as well as the personnel and people support for the various recommendations made here today.
Thank you very much, ladies and gentlemen. The meeting is adjourned.