[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]
Thursday, November 28, 1996
.0939 
[English]
The Chair: Good morning. We're on Bill C-27, an act to amend the Criminal Code with respect to child prostitution, child sex tourism, criminal harassment and female genital mutilation.
We're happy to have back with us for a second attempt at an appearance, from Goa Action Watch, Tim de Mello, who is the chair; Dr. Terry da Silva, a member of the committee; and Larissa Remedios, the communications officer.
We also have with us, from the Canadian Association of Social Workers, Eugenia Moreno, the general director; and Gail MacDougall, who is a member.
We're very happy to have both groups here.
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I'm going to start with Goa Action Watch. The reason is that we had to interrupt them last week for a vote. We are told there are going to be votes this morning, but you're going to talk and we're going to listen. So you go first. I don't think anybody is going to be critical of us for hearing from you first.
Mr. Tim de Mello (Chairperson, Goa Action Watch): Madam Chairman, ladies and gentlemen of the committee, we're deeply honoured and very privileged to appear before you as witnesses representing Goa Action Watch.
We formed soon after we learned pedophilia was becoming a serious problem in our former home state of Goa, India. Our objective is to influence legislators around the world to stem this growing evil of pedophilia.
My name is Tim de Mello. I'm the chairperson of Goa Action Watch and I will be the chief spokesman for the group. We have three major concerns that we'll outline briefly to you. The main elements of our concerns are contained in the brief you have in front of you.
Our first concern is the key words contained in the current Criminal Code under subsection 212(4), which is part of the current Bill C-27. Those words are ``for consideration''. The reason for this concern is that it limits the scope of this legislation. ``For consideration'' means that an ostensible exchange takes place, for example sex for money.
Children in developing countries are supposedly employed by foreigners as live-in helpers for a small stipend and an education. Poor parents who are anxious for their children to gain an education are often misled by this. They fall victims to foreign pedophiles who take full advantage of such situations. Money does not always change hands and child sex exploiters do not always enter into any kind of contractual agreement with the children or those who supply the children. Therefore, these words, ``for consideration,'' would appear to leave a loophole that would be exploited by many abusers.
Ms Larissa Remedios (Communications Officer, Goa Action Watch): Our second concern is the implementation of the extraterritoriality aspect of this legislation. This needs to be spelled out. For this law to be effective, the extraterritoriality aspect must be clearly defined. This is the most significant part of the bill. We must ensure it is effective and not just nice words in our Criminal Code.
To enforce the extraterritoriality aspects of this bill we suggest that the following paragraph replace or be added to proposed subsection 212(5). You have the wording in front of you.
- (5) For the purposes of subsection (4), evidence that a person is engaged in sexual activity with a
person under the age of eighteen years is in the absence of evidence to the contrary, proof that
the accused has obtained the sexual services of a person under the age of eighteen years.
In addition, the provisions of Bill C-27 should be widely publicized to Canadians travelling abroad. Pamphlets and posters should warn that illicit practices abroad will not be immune from the law and will be prosecuted in Canada.
We must also empower our embassies and consulate offices to investigate any pedophiles that may be reported to them. We must openly encourage this practice and then use these reports as a basis for a formal investigation.
Importantly, too, we would like to be assured that sufficient funds will be set aside to prosecute these cases effectively. For example, children and lawyers may have to be flown to Canada to act as witnesses. This, we feel, will act as a severe deterrent to those who think they can fulfil their harmful practices overseas at will. Remember that these pedophiles will continue to prey on our children when they return to Canada. Bill C-27 must not only be good legislation, but must be seen to be good legislation.
Mr. de Mello: Our third concern is the proposed penalty. The proposed penalty currently is imprisonment for a term not exceeding five years. This penalty for these crimes, in our opinion, is not severe enough.
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We're aware of the argument that hardened pedophiles do not feel they will be apprehended anyway, and that the penalty, severe or not, will not make any significant difference. We beg to differ on that point. That line of argument could also be applied to this proposed legislation: why bother? Hardened criminals need to be dealt with, but we must also prevent people who are considering trying this for the first time or casual child sex offenders. They need to be deterred, and a very strong signal needs to be sent out.
We suggest that the wording be changed from ``not exceeding five years'' to ``not exceeding ten years''. This term approaches the penalty for manslaughter. We feel this is appropriate because a child's future is indeed slaughtered by this crime.
Ladies and gentlemen of the committee, we are very proud that Canada is taking this important step to institute this legislation. We want it to stand as a shining example for the rest of the world to emulate. It is only with this type of action that we can rid the world of this terrible scourge.
Thank you, Madam Chair, ladies and gentlemen.
The Chair: Thank you very much.
Who will go first, Ms Moreno or Ms MacDougall?
Ms Gail MacDougall (Member, Canadian Association of Social Workers): I'll be the principal speaker for the association.
Madam Chair, members of the committee, we wish to thank you for the privilege of appearing before you this morning and sharing our thoughts on the proposed amendments to the legislation.
The Canadian Association of Social Workers is a national organization that represents through its member provincial organizations over 14,500 social workers across the country. I am a former president of this association, and I bring to the discussion this morning my recent experience of eleven years' practice in the area of child welfare.
We speak this morning from the perspective of social work, not from a legal perspective. We've not had any legal counsel on this. We wanted to give you our reactions in general to the proposals.
We wish to commend the Government of Canada for tackling the issues cited in the proposed amendments in the areas of child prostitution, child sex tourism, stalking, female genital mutilation and the burden on child and youth witnesses giving testimony in prosecutions of sexual offences.
Initially, we wish to make some general comments about our profession and its involvement in community. On a daily basis we work in the community and in institutions with children and youth who have been neglected and abused. We work with women who are victims of spousal abuse. We work with victims of violence and with families that have immigrated to this country. As well, we work with the perpetrators of these abuses.
The profession of social work has a strong commitment to advocacy and social justice. In many instances we find ourselves working on behalf of clients to obtain necessary services and to support them through a court process that can be intimidating and frightening. The delays that can be encountered in attempting to conduct joint investigation of sexual abuse, for example, can be very frustrating and can result in disjointed service and periods of prolonged anxiety for victims and their families. Social workers provide support, advocacy, treatment services and education for those clients involved in such prosecutions.
The field of child welfare is almost exclusively an area of practice done by social workers. In that role, social workers balance the legal mandate to protect children against their responsibility to provide a full range of social work services of a therapeutic, humanitarian nature. It is not an easy thing to balance the power inherent in the legal mandate with the humanitarian service role.
We work with colleagues in many professions - therapists, community service workers, health care providers, staff of women in shelters and the police - and we work directly with children and their parents.
Many families in our society struggle to provide the basics of food and shelter for children. Women who have very few alternatives are left in situations where they face frequent abuse and live in fear for their personal safety and that of their children.
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Canadian social policy is currently undergoing a massive change and review. We have had to acknowledge a shrinking resource base, and we have to accept the challenge to create a social policy that protects vulnerable children and adults. We have to ensure that all citizens have access to a community life in which they are secure, respected and able to participate fully in developing their own personal worth.
We are known to be a compassionate society that protects those who have suffered abuse, sexual exploitation, physical assault, and whose lives are lived in fear and uncertainty. Steps taken to enhance the ability of law enforcement and talks to intervene in situations referred to in the proposed amendments are welcomed. We will briefly comment on each of the amendments proposed.
We support the move to treat in a similar fashion those persons who have sought the services of children and youths involved in prostitution both within and without Canada. The proposed amendment sends a clear message that such activities will not be tolerated. With respect to offences that occur out of the country, this legislation will place us in line with other countries such as France, Australia, New Zealand, the U.S., Norway, Germany, and others that have already taken such measures.
We would also add that the ability to undertake the prosecution of those offences committed out of the country will require extra time, cooperation and resources. It will be important that these are available so as not to be a deterrent to those with the mandate to prosecute in these matters.
Legislation alone cannot turn the tide. We would encourage other government departments, in partnership with NGOs looking at health, human resources and immigration, to develop educational programs that provide information about child prostitution, the law, the nature of the offences and the penalties, as well as giving information on the social context in which child prostitution occurs. We need to personalize this and humanize it. We need to take it out of the realm of children being treated as objects.
Travel agents and airlines have a responsibility to share this information with international travellers. Within Canada a similar educational program should be available. Cooperation and leadership from the federal and provincial governments are essential.
We also know the sentiment that exists to lock offenders up and to forget about the problems. Sexual offenders require treatment, and we need further research into the treatment of these offenders. Treatment, education and prevention programs are the main hope for safer communities.
With respect to the offence of aggravated procuring, we are supportive of the proposed changes. In my own work in the field of child welfare I have become aware of and alarmed by the tactics used by pimps to engage young males and females in prostitution. The use of threats and intimidation, and abuse that is physical, emotional and sexual in nature, to coerce minors into the sex trade is unconscionable and intolerable.
During my eleven years in the practice of child welfare in my community, there were at least six young women killed as a result of their involvement in prostitution. The existence of prostitution rings in which youth are treated as sexual commodities has been a problem for years. It was only when the existence of these rings was given national exposure that additional resources were given to police, with a mandate for cooperation and concerted action with community service providers.
Stalking is a phenomenon that is troubling and elusive. Many women have suffered as a consequence of being stalked by former partners. They live in a climate of fear, and unfortunately there have been murders as a result. We encourage more effective legal intervention, and again stress the need for support and assistance for the victims.
Treatment for offenders needs to be available to prevent stalkers from progressing to the actual step of committing physical injury and possibly murder. There's a role for prevention and education in this that would complement the legislation. There must be much more research on the whole area of treatment of perpetrators of sexual offences, because I don't believe we have a particularly good rate of treatment with sexual offences.
.0955
In relation to the enhancements and the special provisions of the Criminal Code to ease the testimonial burden of young complainants and witnesses with respect to specified offences, which I understand are related to sexual offences, we would support the proposed changes. It is important that witnesses and complainants feel safe to say what they know are their experiences and what they have understood of the crime. There may be instances when a sibling of a child who's been the victim of incest in the family would have to testify about the acts of a parent. These are very stressful and difficult things.
The aim of the court is to have a full understanding of the event that has occurred, so we would support measures that would make it easier for young witnesses to feel safe to say what they have known and encountered. The rights of the accused, of course, must be given due process, but we want to ask that the children are safe and free to say what they have witnessed.
With respect to the provisions related to the sexual mutilation of females, it is our position that this must be stopped within Canada. We are supportive of measures to do this.
We would have a concern that we don't know about the possibility of a woman over the age of eighteen being able to give free consent if such a thing were involved. There are cultural pressures that can be brought to bear. I was just wondering about the age of eighteen. Perhaps it's my ignorance, but I was wondering if that is a federal age of majority. I know in my own province that nineteen is the age of majority. I didn't understand that, so I raise it for clarification.
This legislative change will also require education at all levels. Immigration, Justice and Health can work together to educate immigrants from countries where genital mutilation of females is practised and accepted. As well, health professionals can benefit from an awareness of the proposed law and the prohibition contained therein.
These are our basic comments to the committee. We thank you for your attention and we look forward to further discussion. Thank you.
The Chair: Thank you very much.
Mr. Langlois would like us to go to the other side first.
Ms Torsney, did you have any questions of either group?
Ms Torsney (Burlington): Perhaps as a point of clarification, eighteen is the UN standard, and also for most things in Canada. The federal voting age is eighteen.
The other issue is that some people believe that you couldn't give consent even after the age of eighteen. For instance, you couldn't walk into a doctor's office and say, cut off my arm; I'd like to have one arm. You can't do that. But others have asked that we have a clarification on that point. We're somewhere in between. I'm not sure where we are today with the officials.
Ms MacDougall: Consent is a very difficult area, so we appreciate that.
Ms Torsney: It also leads to some issues with genital piercing, tattooing, and other things that are technically mutilations of healthy tissue. It depends on where you're coming from. We've heard all of the testimonies.
Ms MacDougall: I'm sure you have.
Ms Torsney: I have a question for Goa Action Watch. I'm not sure that everybody knows where Goa is. Perhaps you could describe why the situation is so particularly bad in Goa, or so particularly an issue in Goa.
Also, one of the issues is enforcement. Obviously, from the information you shared with us, you have a lot of networks. I wonder if you could tell us what else you can do. Will your group be able to help the government if there are incidents of Canadians involved in Goa? Could we use the resources you have, in terms of the networks you've established, to try to track people? Somehow sources other than police and what have you have been the most successful in tracking down these foreigners.
.1000
Mr. de Mello: That's right.
For the benefit of the committee, let me explain that Goa is the smallest state in India. It is situated on the southwest coast of India, just below Bombay. It has a population of about 1.4 million people. The population doubles during the tourist season, which is about now to mid-January. It's a very popular tourist resort, particularly for people from Europe. Most of these tourists are actually from Europe.
It has gained notoriety within the last ten years as a place where young boys can be easily obtained through orphanages and can be picked up on the beach or in playgrounds. As a matter of fact, it is even advertised in some of the gay magazines. Spartacus was one gay magazine that said that if you went into the main city of Goa, which is Pangim, and you went into a certain playground, there would be boys available for pick-up.
This whole case came to light when somebody from outside the state of Goa brought a person to trial against the state's wishes. The state put all kinds of impediments in her way and kept denying that this type of thing ever existed in the state. She successfully brought this person to trial. It took her six years. This person, who is of Anglo-German descent, had been operating through an orphanage for eleven years. About 250 boys had been under his care during this time. He was finally convicted and sentenced to life.
Now the Central Bureau of Investigation, the investigation body of India - not the state, because this woman took the state government to court and got the Central Bureau of Investigation to take over the investigation in Goa - has found that there is a network of international pedophiles operating through Goa. They've since laid charges on six foreign nationals from Germany, Sweden, France, Thailand and Australia.
So it is a growing concern, and we're sure there are some Canadians involved in this activity as well. We can't prove it.
Ms Torsney: In terms of the networks you have internationally...
Mr. de Mello: We are connected through the Internet. We are trying to fight this through the Internet. These people use the Internet to gain access to little children in India. We're using the same medium, the Internet, to fight it. We have put on it an on-line petition. We have a whole section on the Internet dedicated to this particular problem so that people can read about it and be advised about what is actually going on. They will be operating from a position of knowledge rather than from a position of ignorance.
Ms Torsney: The children who are being particularly targeted or having particular difficulty with exploitation, are they native Goans? Or are they also brought in from other parts of the country so that there's a status problem and it's somehow easier for them to be abused because they are considered perhaps less valuable?
Mr. de Mello: That is precisely the case. The main argument we find from the people in Goa is that these are not their children. They are children that have come in as immigrants from out of state. Goa is one of the most affluent states in India, and we get a lot of immigration into the state of Goa. Because a lot of these labourers who come in cannot afford decent housing and live in little shanties, their children do not go to the schools the state provides. They roam the beaches and they roam the streets. They are very easy targets for the pedophiles.
Ms Torsney: Obviously we need to do some work in terms of on-the-ground and social development issues to try to stop the problem from occurring as well. Where Canadians are involved, perhaps this kind of legislation would be helpful in deterring their participation.
.1005
Mr. de Mello: Yes, and we are fully supportive of what our colleagues on this side have said about publicizing this to the fullest extent. We have posters in the airports warning about the dangers of drugs and what would happen if you got caught. Why not have similar posters on pedophilia? And why not give out little pamphlets as well, to tourists who are going to these destinations, particularly to the Caribbean?
Last week when we were here and we weren't able to present our testimony, one of the people who came to listen to us actually told us outside that he went to the Caribbean and was ashamed at the activity of a lot of Canadians who went there just for sex with children.
Ms Torsney: To the Dominican Republic?
Mr. de Mello: Yes, to the Dominican Republic.
Ms Torsney: They seem to have a particular problem that needs to be dealt with.
Ms MacDougall, yesterday we heard from some people some interesting testimony about the whole issue of pimping. They were former prostitutes, or current prostitutes actually.
It's argued that we're really getting involved in an employer-employee relationship and that there are benefits, in fact, to having some protection and to having a collective group of individuals who... It's a management structure, basically. They do the advertising, they book the dates, they provide some protection in terms of recording licence plate numbers, they may get access to better clothing or whatever. For some kids who have been in at-risk home situations, perhaps it's the first person who genuinely cared for them and provided meals and security.
It was suggested that by putting in place this legislation, we are going to put kids at more risk because they'll be in darker, shadier parts of town without the support network that they sometimes get by being part of this collective or pimp ring or whatever. How are we going to deal with this?
Ms MacDougall: It's a big issue. Were they referring to minors?
Ms Torsney: Both. Or sometimes it's two prostitutes who work together, and technically, in the eyes of the law, they believe, you could be prosecuted as a pimp for your friend if you're both working and one is booking the dates.
Ms MacDougall: In my experience, I've heard of and been involved in situations where children were seduced into prostitution - children who were alienated from their families, who were unable to cope with the educational system, etc. We're talking to some extent about marginalized youth. We're talking about youth who are not connected with mainstream society, who for whatever reason have drifted from their families and from the existing community supports.
The response is a community response that really looks at the needs of youth, all youth, and how we can better engage them and keep them engaged in community. If you are alienated, lonely, hungry, frightened and on the street and someone befriends you, then you're going to go with them and you're going to feel good.
I know of examples where girls were watched in shopping malls. They have an ability to sense when the child is vulnerable. They take them and put them in apartments where they have other girls. They're fed. They have a place to sleep. They are nice to them. They give them clothing and food.
I've heard of instances where children were taken out for a really nice meal in a restaurant, and they felt very warm and supported. They thought these were really nice guys who were going to look after them. Then at the end of the meal, when the kid says that this was really nice, they say, well, now you have to pay us back; you owe us $400 for accommodation and clothing, and tonight's dinner was $75 - how are you going to do this? Then they tell them there are ways.
There's a power imbalance here. No matter how you rationalize it, kids are kids. They're not commodities to be drawn into this activity. It bespeaks, though, our social context, in which youth are marginalized and we have not been able to keep them engaged.
It's a very complex situation. I couldn't pretend to give you a simple solution.
.1010
Ms Torsney: I'm not sure you identified which province you come from.
Ms MacDougall: Nova Scotia.
Ms Torsney: And you know this piece of legislation related to the pimping of children is particularly instigated by our colleague from Nova Scotia, Ron MacDonald, who put a lot of pressure because of the particular problem in the Halifax area.
Ms MacDougall: Yes. I've been aware for years of rings that have really gotten kids. We're a collector area in the Atlantic provinces. Children come in, are engaged with the pimps and are moved very quickly.
A number of years ago we had a dialogue with the police in Trois-Rivières, who would stop cars with men and young girls in them. We had an arrangement with the child protection authorities to take children to Quebec City and bring them back. This has been going on for a long time. They get to Montreal, Toronto, Calgary, Vancouver and into the States, I think. It wasn't formalized until a few years ago. It hit the media and then there was more attention.
In Halifax there has been some success in reducing the visible population of child prostitutes, as a result of a task force that was set up. So there are things we can do.
It's very troubling. I personally have been troubled about this for years, and I'm glad I have the chance to blow a little steam off with you.
Ms Torsney: A young woman who'd been a child prostitute since she was about fourteen suggested to us that care sucks, and that she was in fact conditioned to be abused through her family situation and through the care situation.
What disturbed me in talking to some of the people who work with kids on the streets of Toronto was that their take on it is that CAS workers, from the Children's Aid Society, really don't care very much about the kids who are thirteen, fourteen and fifteen, because they've made choices and they are difficult. Their resources are so strapped that they just do not have... They do care about their children, if they become pregnant, but they really are focused on younger children and just can't deal. I don't know if you have any comments about that.
Ms MacDougall: Oh, I do. You shouldn't ask.
Some hon. members: Oh, oh!
Ms Torsney: Go, gal, go!
The Chair: Could I just say something before you start? So that my colleagues know, and so the people who are sensitive to these bells and lights understand what they mean, there will be a vote at 10:35 a.m. It's the 30-minute bell, and we're in telephone contact. We'll probably break around 10:25 a.m. to get over there for the vote. I understand that at this point there's just one vote, but I don't know what other shenanigans might go on.
Ms Torsney: Tim can probably advise us.
The Chair: Tim has become an expert on this.
I'm sorry; go ahead.
Ms MacDougall: Thank you for that.
We just finished, here in Ottawa, a major conference on the future of the children in this country. It was a major consultation, and a very powerful part of that consultation was the voice of youth who had been in care. They spoke eloquently and clearly about their situation. They want to be treated as we would treat our own children. They were telling us they want to be included in all aspects of life in society, and I think they're saying that because they have not had that experience.
I am too well aware of what happens to young people of adolescent age who are in the care of agencies. However, I will say that in my experience, considerable care and attention is given to the youth, as much as they will accept it. I can talk about my personal experiences as a worker. I spent a whole day making sixty phone calls, in one day on a weekend, to find a bed for a youth. At 11 p.m. we came up with nothing, and I swore I'd never do that again.
Ms Torsney: A youth being...?
Ms MacDougall: A young person aged fourteen or fifteen who was unable to stay at home.
In the services we have, as I was saying earlier, we don't seem to be able to connect with some youth. Some youth, whatever their life experience has been, are rejecting traditional service models.
Part of the discussion this week at the conference was around how we're going to meet this. How are we going to adapt our system? What can we offer to youth that will help them meet their goals and treat them with respect and humanity? When that doesn't happen, then we get youth who are marginalized, and they spin out. We're not very good at engaging some of the youth and so we get that.
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So I would expect to hear those kinds of comments: that they cannot relate to what they're offered; social workers don't care; they won't offer them anything. I have seen children begging on the streets of Halifax who I know were in the office and who turned away an offer of a meal ticket at a local cafeteria. They basically said to their social workers, you know where you can put it. I went out at lunch and I saw them with their hat out. We cannot make them take help. In legislation, we cannot force them to do things. They make some choices.
I've worked too long to accept that social workers don't care. It may not come across, but I've had too many experiences where people have anguished over children who have vanished and are so grateful when they get a call from a kid who says, I'm okay, and so they maintain phone contact. But I have also seen those children when they come into the office say, I called you because my pimp told me I should check in with you so that you would lay off tracking me as vigorously, and they stood right behind me when I talked to you so I couldn't tell you I didn't want to be there.
There's a power imbalance in this stuff. You will hear, and you've no doubt heard, all kinds of arguments that in this context you can make a rationale for it. But if you look in the broader context of power imbalance, and the youth of our country and how we treat them and what they are entitled to, the broader context, I think, eliminates that kind of discussion.
That's how people justify these. I'm being a bit simplistic just to make my point, but it's very troubling.
Ms Torsney: I think in this example, it was actually another adult youth worker saying that in the Toronto area, anyway, they're so strapped that the CAS can't be worried about the thirteen-year-old or fourteen-year-old who they think has made decisions.
It seems to me that sometimes we divide kids into good kids and bad kids. We can spend lots of time with the good kids, but the bad kids are there because they want to be and it's easier to care less about them because they are difficult, they're in your face and everything. It is a real challenge, and often these kids are saying, listen, what I had at home or what I had in care was so bad anyway. At least I get choices on customers and I get paid for what I'm doing.
Ms MacDougall: Listen, if you come at it from that perspective, yes, this is what they do to survive. What troubles us is the fact that they're there and that they have to take those decisions. Life has put them in that position so they have to make those choices to survive.
What happened? We need to not forget prevention and how we strengthen families, and how we keep kids connected with their families and in their communities - communities that accept them. It's part of a big piece.
The Chair: Thanks, Ms Torsney.
[Translation]
Madame Gagnon.
Mrs. Gagnon (Quebec): First, I would like to apologize for being late. I was attending another meeting early this morning. I was unable to hear your presentations, but I would like to ask you a question.
I am very interested in the bill the Minister has tabled because I also tabled a bill on sex tourism and genital mutilation.
First, I would like to address one aspect of the bill that deals with child prostitution. People seem to be saying that children are ultimately more the victims and that this bill would not necessarily protect them.
One of the witnesses seemed to tell us yesterday that she did not believe this bill would help young children, but rather would victimize them to a greater degree and that customers, those who pay for such services, often get better treatment than the children. Do you share this point of view? Is this bill necessary?
[English]
Ms MacDougall: I would ask in what respect it would further victimize young people.
[Translation]
Mrs. Gagnon: They seemed to say that legal system and the police were ultimately almost engaging in a witch hunt. Much greater blame is placed on the children who engage in to these sexual activities.
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This would be one way of assigning greater guilt to them rather than helping them and supporting them. As you said a moment ago, educational and reinsertion measures are definitely necessary. This woman, who was very familiar with the milieu, did not seem to be saying that this bill would be effective.
[English]
Ms MacDougall: Thank you for your comment. I think it is very important that we take a holistic approach to this. Legislation may enable intervention in criminal matters, but that's all it does. This is a social problem we are dealing with, and this is an attempt in legislation to fine-tune some issues.
Education, appropriate services, and prevention of children becoming so marginalized that they are out there have to be priorities. They are victims. They do become victims, but this is one piece. There are many pieces: education, support, children who grow up feeling valued and cherished and have someone who cares about them, not a pimp who happens to be available. There are many difficulties we have to surmount, but it must be done in a context.
So when you talk of education, that's very important. I would agree with you on that. We also need more appropriate community services. The traditional services are letting children fall through the sieve, and we need other ways of connecting with youth to keep them from going onto the streets and becoming vulnerable.
[Translation]
Mrs. Gagnon: I know you have addressed other aspects of Bill C-27, including sex tourism and genital mutilation. I believe I heard your presentation also focused on the wording of the consent that is provided for in the bill. In your opinion, does the wording of this clause in the bill seem to suggest that genital mutilation could be permitted for individuals over 18 years of age?
[English]
Ms MacDougall: For me it was a bit unclear. It was a bit unclear about consent. Your colleague raised issues related to the complexity of consent being given. I don't think we had specific comments. We ourselves had questions around the area of consent.
[Translation]
Mrs. Gagnon: Mr. de Mello, do you believe the bill will really criminalize individuals who engage in sex tourism for consideration and who will be prosecuted under the terms of the act? Shouldn't the bill also include all sexual abuse, not merely acts for consideration? A number of witnesses have come to tell us that this bill would be too restrictive. Do you share the point of view of those people who emphasize this weakness in the bill?
[English]
Mr. de Mello: In our case, we only know of certain types of sexual abuse - providing young children, boys or girls, to pedophiles. There may be other kinds of sexual abuse. I'm not aware of any other kinds.
I'm not sure whether I'm answering your question correctly. If I'm not, please bear with me and ask me again, but that's the only type of abuse we are aware of. Are you referring to genital mutilation or any other kind of sexual abuse or not?
[Translation]
Mrs. Gagnon: No, I was referring instead to sexual abuses committed without the customer paying for these favours. The bill concerns persons who obtain or try to obtain the sexual services of a person under 18 years of age for consideration. These provisions do not include acts that may not have been committed for consideration. So cases can only be prosecuted if we can prove that money was involved.
.1025
The bill does not address this type of offence. A number of witnesses have told us that the bill was too restrictive. We know perfectly well that you can go outside Canada and obtain certain favours from young boys without necessarily giving them money for those favours. The bill on sex tourism does not govern this type of sexual relations.
[English]
Mr. de Mello: Yes, we totally agree with you. In the initial part of my presentation that was one of our prime concerns with this new bill. It's a carry-over from the old Criminal Code into the new Bill C-27 of the words ``for consideration''. We were asking that these words ``for consideration'', which implies an exchange of money for sex, be removed because in the cases we see in Goa, India, money doesn't change hands.
The Chair: Thank you, Madame Gagnon.
One minute, Mr. Telegdi, because we have to break to vote.
Mr. Telegdi (Waterloo): Ms MacDougall, I think a big part of it is that we really aren't doing a whole lot on prevention compared to the extent we could be. When we cut welfare payments in the province of Ontario by 22%, we know we're going to be creating all sorts of problems. Having created all those problems, then we focus on the symptom.
Ms MacDougall: I agree. I think we don't look at root causes. The danger in the process of the social policy review we are in now is that we may look at pieces before we have a vision and determine our national values, which should be directing our social policy. If you adjust one thing...and the example you've cited was in Ontario. There are other examples across the country.
People are suffering. One thing at the conference...people want employment. They want jobs because that can help deal with the issue of considerable poverty in the country. If people have good, steady jobs, then they're not going to need the social security network to the extent that people now need it.
The Chair: Thank you, Ms MacDougall.
We'll rise now for the vote. I want to thank our witnesses very much for attending and for being so persistent in doing so. Thank you.
The meeting is adjourned.