[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]
Tuesday, December 3, 1996
.1534 
[Translation]
The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Serré): Order, please! Welcome, everyone. In accordance with Standing Order 108(4)(b), we are continuing our study of the implementation of the Official Languages Act in the National Capital Region.
We are privileged to have as our witness today Mr. Jean-Pierre Cloutier, President of the Advisory Committee on French Language Services in the City of Ottawa.
[English]
Good afternoon, Mr. Cloutier, and welcome to this committee.
[Translation]
I will give you the floor for a brief presentation, and then we will move to the questioning by members of Parliament and senators.
So, the floor is yours.
Mr. Jean-Pierre Cloutier (Vice-President, City of Ottawa Advisory Committee on French Language Services): Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and members of the Standing Joint Committee. Thank you for giving us this opportunity to present our viewpoint on official languages in the National Capital. We are principally concerned about the 125,000 Francophones who live here and the thousands of others who work here daily.
I should tell you that I'm appearing before you in my capacity as Vice-President of the Advisory Committee on French Language Services in the City of Ottawa.
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I was President when we first requested to appear before your committee. I believe that was around the end of August.
By way of introduction, I should perhaps tell you that our advisory committee is made up of nine volunteers who try to help the city's decision-making authorities provide the best services in French to the French-speaking people of Ottawa. I believe some information about our committee's mandate has been distributed already. It should be included as part of your documentation.
First of all, the language of commercial signs should be only one part of your mandate. We hope that your study will succeed in illuminating all aspects of the situation, which is a complex one. I wanted to make this point, because in scanning the newspapers quickly, it seems that the whole issue of services in French is being reduced to a matter of signs. We urge you to analyze systematically all those other aspects, including awareness and enhancement, promotion of cultural and economic benefits, and so on.
Your study should consider the role of other public institutions as well as community and private groups. The main reason we recommend this is that the biggest problem is one of attitudes, habits and prejudices. They are at the root of Anglophones' hesitancy, or complete failure, to offer services in French, and Francophones' reluctance to ask for them.
Where public institutions are concerned, there is a certain framework of laws, policies and practices applicable to the private sector that facilitates the use of French. This framework is relatively recent, however, and we have to say that it is going to take a good deal more time and energy before we Francophones can function easily in our mother tongue in all aspects of public life in Ottawa.
The strength of the federal government lies in its ability to exercise its official languages responsibilities and commitments in its dealings with all parties that want to co-operate in finding solutions (community groups, the private sector and government institutions at all levels).
To avoid acting in isolation, the federal government should take on a leadership role, bringing together all the main interested parties, which are, as I mentioned before: various levels of government, business groups (Chamber of Commerce, and so on) and community groups.
You could also take an innovative approach to the Official Languages Act, by pushing ahead with joint action by your own institutions and local stakeholders, so as to formulate an action plan or at least a series of initiatives that would improve the whole situation regarding service in French in the City of Ottawa.
I prepared these brief introductory remarks, not knowing whether I would be appearing alone or with a number of others. I would be pleased to answer your questions or to give you more details about our Advisory Committee on French-Language Services of the City of Ottawa.
The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Serré): Thank you very much, Mr. Cloutier. I think we purposely invited only one guest today. I am sure the committee members will have many questions to ask you.
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We think the role you play with the City of Ottawa is very important in the context of our study. As usual, we will start by giving the floor to the Official Opposition. You have ten minutes, Mr. Marchand.
Mr. Marchand (Québec-Est): Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and welcome, Mr. Cloutier. I appreciate your presentation very much. Your text suggests that there is a great deal of good will on the part of the City of Ottawa. We should have consulted you when we were considering our terms of reference. You are in the process of presenting an overview of what we should do.
With this background of good will, I would like to ask you the same question I have asked other witnesses, one that explains the demonstration by the FCFA on Sparks Street Mall because of the lack of signs in French in Ottawa.
As a member of the Advisory Committee, do you think that Ottawa is a bilingual city, or mainly English-speaking?
Mr. Cloutier: Could you please clarify whether you are referring to the City of Ottawa in the broadest sense, or whether you are asking whether the municipality of Ottawa offers services in French and is bilingual? These are two different things. Are you referring to the city as a large urban area?
Mr. Marchand: Yes, I'm referring to the city as the capital of Canada, and I am talking about the ability of Francophones to function in their own language. I understand you would like to see some improvements in this area, and I would like you to give us further explanation. In your opinion, can Francophones function in French in Ottawa, is it a bilingual city?
Mr. Cloutier: It is probably not a bilingual city in the same way that certain parts of Montreal are bilingual, where people can get along very easily in either French or English. However, I can tell you that contrary to what we hear in the media - and I don't know what your personal experience is - when people make the necessary effort, they can get service in French.
That is a fact, and I would like to tell you about my personal experience. My approach is not complicated. I try to deal with businesses which, for similar prices and quality, offer me service in French. So as far as possible, I buy my gas from a particular station. If I am closer to downtown and I'm buying newspapers or magazines, I go to a particular store where I know the owner and his sons, who were born abroad, will speak to me in French.
Of course, my dream is to see that Francophones can get better service than what they have at the moment, both municipal and all other services. Obviously, that is why I am here today. If I were satisfied with the services available in French and if I thought that the city was bilingual, I would certainly not be here today.
Mr. Marchand: Tell us a little about the capital's Advisory Committee of the City of Ottawa. What is your mandate and what power do you have as regards service in French?
Mr. Cloutier: Our only power is to make recommendations to Council by order of priority. We report to the Priorities and Budgeting Committee, which passes on our recommendations to Council. The City of Ottawa has an official languages policy which contains administrative directives for the municipality as a whole.
At other times, we are called upon to develop policy on matters such as public meetings, which is what we are working on at the moment.
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We have to determine how public meetings will be held and run to ensure that Francophones get adequate service.
Our job is to ensure that the official languages policy is enforced and to find ways of improving it, for example in the case I just described. It is also our job to study complaints, because they are often a way of identifying problem areas. They give us an opportunity to issue reminders to city officials and administrators.
These days, I will not hide the fact that a large part of our work is to avoid a negative impact from budget cuts and staff reductions on services in French in Ottawa. As you know, all the cuts being made by the federal, provincial and municipal governments are having an impact on the daily lives of Francophones, and naturally, on our work as well.
Mr. Marchand: So you say there is in fact an official languages policy in Ottawa. I assume the city itself introduced the policy. I imagine you do your job well, and that for the most part, the policy is in fact enforced. If so, I would ask you to comment on this. In addition, what do you think the federal government should do to support this policy?
Mr. Cloutier: I would like to spend some time talking about the role I see for the federal government. It could involve providing support of one type or another to find ways of improving the implementation of the policy or to develop certain aspects of it. However, I also think the federal government's role, as I was saying at the beginning, is to help us promote co-operation among all interested parties.
Let's take the example of individual citizens. They are served by the municipal government of Ottawa, which provides a whole range of services. For health care and other matters, these same individuals are served by the regional government. They receive other services from the provincial government - and there are quite a number of these - and still others from the federal government.
Our vision may be somewhat simplistic, but we think we have to all work together to ensure that services in French are improved and that Francophones are encouraged to use them.
Why not bring together all the people involved, because, in the end, we are serving the same people, even though we work in different areas?
Mr. Marchand: You were talking about a type of...
The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Serré): I have been generous with you, Mr. Marchand, I gave you 15 minutes. We will move to the government side, and come back to you later.
Mr. Dupuy.
Mr. Dupuy (Laval-Ouest): If I remember correctly, the City of Ottawa directive dates back to 1982. So quite a bit of time has gone by since then. Generally speaking, do you think the status of the French language has improved over this long period, which covers the 1980s and more than half of the 1990s? In other words, do you think the situation is improving or deteriorating?
Mr. Cloutier: Are you talking about municipal services or are you speaking in more general terms?
Mr. Dupuy: I'm speaking in general terms.
.1550
Mr. Cloutier: In 1982, I was more active in the Prescott- Russell region, and I could speak to you about that in greater detail, but as far as Ottawa goes... I arrived here in 1965. I came from Quebec, and at that time, there was no Official Languages Act in Canada. I even remember that at that time, we had to fight to get the signs changed on washroom doors. I think we have made tremendous progress since that time.
When I look at all the institutions we have now in Ottawa, French-language institutions and perhaps some that offer bilingual services as well, and when I look at everything that has happened with schools, when I see the increase, and the more visible presence of French-speaking business people or of our caisses populaires, I do think the situation has improved. I couldn't quantify the improvement, but I do think the situation has improved.
However, much still remains to be done. As I was saying earlier, there are still too many Francophones who go into a store and do not speak French to the person there, even though the latter could probably answer them in French. I think the reason for this is that all the steps that have been taken, including the 1982 policy and the Official Languages Act, are relatively recent.
Since we were always accustomed to being turned down politely, or, more often, impolitely, people are not going to start requesting service in French overnight.
Mr. Dupuy: Do you mean that the greatest challenge is sociological, rather than one involving legislation or regulations?
Mr. Cloutier: I would not like to downplay the legislative aspect, but as I said at the beginning, we do have a framework within which we can operate. We should take advantage of this relatively recent decision and of all the interdepartmental co- operation there was when you were Minister of Canadian Heritage. I think the main problem is one of attitudes.
I am neither a psychologist nor a sociologist, but I have noticed that people are often timid, particularly Francophones, who are overly polite, as I have always said. They do not dare offend Anglophones, even though, very often, the Anglophones are not offended at all.
Mr. Dupuy: I would also like to hear what you think about something else. I too arrived in Ottawa for the first time a long time ago, and I remember a period when the Ottawa River was a real border between Ottawa and Hull. Hull was not really part of the National Capital, even though it was by law. This situation gradually changed, if only through the opening of a number of federal government departments in Hull, including my former department.
Do you think that the fact that Hull and Ottawa are now more integrated is helping promote French on the Ontario side?
Mr. Cloutier: You mean the fact that there are-
Mr. Dupuy: Many more ties between Hull and Ottawa.
Mr. Cloutier: Your question is how that might influence-
Mr. Dupuy: The use of French in Ottawa.
Mr. Cloutier: -the use of French here? I must say that I have not thought about that. It is true that many French-speaking Quebeckers work here in Ottawa, and they must contribute to the demand for service in French, at least I hope they do. I think this fact may play some role, but I must confess that I have never thought about that.
.1555
Mr. Dupuy: May I ask one final question?
You quite rightly refer to the responsibilities of the various levels of government. Have you had any consultations with the other levels of government on matters such as the one we are looking at, or do you work alone?
Mr. Cloutier: Generally, we work alone, but sometimes we work together. I should mention one exception regarding the City of Ottawa, where we managed, at one time, to get some financial support for certain aspects of the policy. However, as you know, improving service delivery is quite problematical at the moment, given the situation with the current government. In the past, we had dealings with the provincial government, not the federal government.
Mr. Dupuy: There are not even any consultations among interested bodies?
Mr. Cloutier: No, unfortunately there are not. I think this should be happening, and that is why I am here. I think that would be a great help. I must say that we tried to sort out which issues came under the municipal government, and which came under the regional government. As you know, some services are provided by the regional government. But so far, our efforts haven't worked out very well.
Our position with respect to all these issues about merging municipalities is that the new administrative entities must take the whole francophone issue into account. That is what we say very often to the elected representatives and the officials in the City of Ottawa. Personally, I said the same thing last week or two weeks ago to the Regional Municipality of Ottawa-Carleton.
The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Serré): Thank you, Mr. Dupuy.
[English]
Mr. Breitkreuz, the floor is yours.
Mr. Breitkreuz (Yellowhead): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Thanks for coming to the committee and making your address and presentation.
I will ask you a series of questions, but I first want some clarification. In your presentation you mention right at the top that you're ``concerned about the 125,000 francophones who live here and the thousands of others who work here.'' I'm kind of curious about where you got that figure, because I have numbers that would dispute that number. In fact, according to Home Language, in the city of Ottawa there are 36,000 francophones, whereas you're saying there are 125,000.
[Translation]
Mr. Cloutier: I must say that when I mentioned this number, I was referring to the number of Francophones in the National Capital, that is the Regional Municipality of Ottawa-Carleton. As far as I know, there are approximately 125,000 Francophones living there. I should have brought in a document from the Office of Francophone Affairs, which gives a demographic profile. But you are right to say that there are probably about 30,000 Francophones living in Ottawa. I would have to verify that figure.
[English]
Mr. Breitkreuz: Okay. Your committee just advises in the city of Ottawa, does it - just the city of Ottawa?
[Translation]
Mr. Cloutier: Exactly, yes.
[English]
Mr. Breitkreuz: I notice in your terms of reference that that's what you do and you advise on French-language services to the City of Ottawa. You compile lists of complaints and that sort of thing, do you?
[Translation]
Mr. Cloutier: Complaints are handled anonymously by the administration. The purpose in bringing them before the committee is to make suggestions regarding corrective action.
.1600
For example, the policy provides that firms that get contracts to provide security guards or employees to do other jobs must comply with the official languages policy. If there is a complaint and we realize that there's been a problem in this regard, our task is to remind the administration that subcontractors are required to comply with the official languages policy.
[English]
Mr. Breitkreuz: So there are complaints. Do you have them in a list, or written down, and could we have access to them? Could you send these lists of complaints to our office?
[Translation]
Mr. Cloutier: I think so, but as I said, the complaints are anonymous. We don't know the names of the people who file them. It does happen from time to time, of course, that a committee member files a complaint, but I don't think that these are public documents. You would have to ask the City of Ottawa. I can find out for you if you like.
[English]
Mr. Breitkreuz: We would appreciate that very much.
Does the City of Ottawa have any numerical hiring targets to make sure a proportionate number of francophones are hired?
[Translation]
Mr. Cloutier: No, there are no quotas. However, there are policies to designate certain positions. There is also a policy to designate what we call work units. For example, work units made up of five or six employees would have to include two or three people at all times.
Obviously, all services in which the staff deals with the public directly must have a high percentage of bilingual employees. These people are either Francophones who speak English or Anglophones who speak French.
The only place where there was a type of quota was among senior management. Half of them must be Francophones.
[English]
The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Serré): One last short question.
Mr. Breitkreuz: Okay. The title of your committee is Advisory Committee on Official Languages. Can you tell me what section of your committee - because you gave me some national capital figures - deals with the concerns of anglophones in the Ottawa area, or is there another committee for that?
[Translation]
Mr. Cloutier: I should tell you, sir, that our committee is called the Advisory Committee on French Language Services. The policy is called the official languages policy. You will appreciate that we are not there to protect the quality of services in English, which I think are in a very healthy state in the City of Ottawa. Our job is mainly to ensure that high quality services are available in French for French-speaking people.
[English]
Mr. Breitkreuz: Okay, thank you. I'll look forward to receiving the list.
.1605
[Translation]
Mr. Cloutier: Thank you.
[English]
The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Serré): Thank you, Mr. Breitkreuz. - Senator Robichaud.
[Translation]
Senator Robichaud (L'Acadie): Mr. Cloutier, you are the vice- president of the Advisory Committee on French Language Services of the City of Ottawa. I believe this advisory committee was established by the municipal council of the City of Ottawa.
Mr. Cloutier: That is correct.
Senator Robichaud: Is it funded entirely by the City of Ottawa?
Mr. Cloutier: Yes.
Senator Robichaud: Is it very expensive?
Mr. Cloutier: Oh yes. This year, our budget is $1,800.
Senator Robichaud: Could you give us some more details?
Mr. Cloutier: I'm glad you asked that question.
Senator Robichaud: That's what I'm here for.
Mr. Cloutier: I think that $300 of this budget is an optional amount. We can use it however we like, for example to distribute promotional material or other similar things. The rest is used to defray certain costs, such as childcare costs, because we have some mothers on our committee. The budget is also used to pay some transportation costs if one of our members has to go to a meeting by taxi or some other way. It is also used to pay for a little food, because we meet on the second Thursday of each month beginning at 5:30 p.m.. So we have a little snack while we do our work.
The other operating cost of our committee is for a person who works in the clerk's office, and who does all the secretarial work- makes notes, prepares minutes, has everything translated and calls meetings. However, this person does not work for us full time. The same person also works for other advisory committees, such as the one on visible minorities, the one on architectural heritage, the one on transportation, and another one, which I have forgotten for the moment. We do not cost the people of Ottawa very much.
Senator Robichaud: Is it volunteer work?
Mr. Cloutier: Yes, and I should have mentioned that. It has been volunteer work from the beginning. Personally, I have a job that keeps me busy several hours a day several days a week, and all of that work is voluntary. I should also mention that our committee includes some very highly qualified individuals, some of whom represent community organizations in the City of Ottawa, and others who represent the public. They are all citizens, men and women. They get no pay for all the work they do.
Senator Robichaud: You are not being paid in any way whatsoever for being here this afternoon?
Mr. Cloutier: No. In everyday life, I am the executive director of the Assemblée des centres culturels de l'Ontario. So I'm already working in this field. I can therefore be available more easily and make up the hours at some other time.
Senator Robichaud: I see.
In 1996, are the proceedings of the Municipal Council of the City of Ottawa carried on in both languages?
Mr. Cloutier: I do not attend those meetings, but I watch them occasionally on television.
Senator Robichaud: They're open to the public.
Mr. Cloutier: Excuse me?
Senator Robichaud: They're open to the public.
.1610
Mr. Cloutier: Yes. I think most comments are made in English. They may occasionally be in French, because there are some francophone councillors and others with an excellent knowledge of French.
Senator Robichaud: And in Vanier?
Mr. Cloutier: In Vanier, I think the meetings are conducted mainly in French, unless an English-speaking citizen or expert has the floor. However, I could not tell you exactly what happens.
Senator Robichaud: Thank you very much.
The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Serré): We may come back to you if we have time. We want to give everyone an opportunity to ask questions.
Senator Rivest.
Senator Rivest (Stadacona): Good afternoon. I apologize for being a little late.
You mentioned the figure of 125,000 Francophones in the Ottawa-Carleton region. Do the real figures show that the actual proportion of French speakers, not just French-Canadians, in the National Capital Region is increasing or dropping?
Mr. Cloutier: That is a good question. There is in fact a strange phenomenon taking place. Even though, in absolute figures, the francophone population is increasing, the fact is that the anglophone population is also increasing but far more quickly. Consequently, in proportional terms, despite the increase in absolute figures of the francophone population, our numbers are declining relatively speaking.
Senator Rivest: Is this relative decline, which is obviously due to various demographic factors, offset by the fact that more Anglophones have a better knowledge of French? You came here around 1960?
Mr. Cloutier: In 1965.
Senator Rivest: Since you have been here, have you noted that more Anglophones have a better knowledge of French? That is also something that has happened.
Mr. Cloutier: Yes, that has happened, and I am pleased that you have raised this question because I have in fact noted an improvement in services in French. When I travel, I sometimes carry out tests, and I come across more and more young people who are the products of immersion schools. You find them both in the public service and in business. Of course, there is not an enormous number, but there certainly has been progress since 1965.
Senator Rivest: As we know, in some parts of Canada French is regressing significantly and assimilation rates are very worrying, regardless of what Ms Copps may think.
Would you say that in the National Capital Region, French is regressing to the same degree among Anglophones who speak French as among other Canadians?
Mr. Cloutier: No. It's very difficult to say.
Senator Rivest: Is that happening?
Mr. Cloutier: It is very difficult to make a value judgement on that point because obviously assimilation rates are always based on figures for the number of people who in the last census gave French as their mother tongue, in comparison with the number of people who no longer give French as their mother tongue. I think we will be able to answer that question when we have the data from the last census. I do not want to base my answer on personal impressions, which are not quantifiable.
I would say to you, however, that I am far from satisfied with the situation regarding French services both in the city of Ottawa, where it is my responsibility to promote such services, and also outside Ottawa.
Senator Rivest: Let's come back to the city of Ottawa more specifically.
.1615
Obviously, you are very interested in the municipal services provided by the City of Ottawa to its inhabitants. There is also another dimension, and I think you mentioned it: Ottawa is the capital of Canada. As a resident of Ottawa, as a Francophone and French-Canadian, it is important for you that Ottawa be the city which welcomes language duality. That is certainly part of the work you are doing, which involves far more than just the provision of municipal services in French to the taxpayers of Ottawa. Have you carried out an assessment? Some things are being done, but there is still a lot that remains to be done.
Mr. Cloutier: Yes, there is still a lot that remains to be done and I think that the city of Ottawa should serve as an example for other municipalities in Ontario. A lot of progress is being achieved, but there still remains a lot of work to be done. In the case of the Francophones Games, which will be held here soon, how can we present an image which better reflects the francophone fact here?
Senator Rivest: Are you aware of municipal services provided by the City of Montreal, which is not a national capital? How would you assess the services received by the anglophone minority in Montreal in comparison with the municipal services provided to your minority group in the city of Ottawa? Do you have a view on that?
Mr. Cloutier: I have no idea, but I can give you my impression, which may be a preconceived notion. I cannot speak on behalf of my committee, naturally. Personally, it seems to me that it is easier for an Anglophone to function in Montreal than for a Francophone to function here.
Senator Rivest: I think that some people have not understood.
Mr. Cloutier: Senator, perhaps you would like me to repeat that I probably have a preconceived view that should be compared with the facts. In fact, Anglophones, generally - and I have nothing against them, I am very happy for them, on the contrary - do much better, more easily, even in Quebec, than a Francophone here, in Ottawa.
Senator Rivest: In terms of municipal services?
Mr. Cloutier: In terms of municipal services or other services.
Senator Rivest: Montreal is in Quebec.
The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Serré): Senator Rivest, we are now going to move on to
[English]
Mrs. Sheridan. No questions?
Mr. Marchand, before I go back to you, I think I was a little too strict with Mr. Breitkreuz. I realize that I gave him only about five minutes. If he so wishes, I'll give him another crack at another question, and then I'll get back to you.
Mr. Breitkreuz: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Are you familiar with the budgeting of the City of Ottawa as to whether there's a budget for training in the official languages at the taxpayers' expense, as well as translation and whether there are bilingual bonuses and this kind of thing? Could you comment on that?
[Translation]
Mr. Cloutier: I am quite familiar with the whole budget process. As I pointed out earlier, we cost the City of Ottawa's taxpayers $1,800. We also have access part-time to a person who provides us with administrative support. We do not have a bilingualism bonus, to my knowledge. I am not aware of the cost of translation.
We tell public servants and politicians that Ottawa is in a very good position in terms of the globalization of markets. We think that Ottawa should be providing a more francophone image and should be providing more services in French.
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Another reason why the city should be providing more such services is that business people coming from all over the world who are doing their business in French should be able to visit a city that offers them an adequate quality of life.
We believe that offering services in both languages gives the city an extraordinary advantage in terms of economic development. This entails offering academic services, among other places in post-secondary institutions, health services, etc. We believe that that is what provides added value for economic development. Have I answered your question, sir?
[English]
Mr. Breitkreuz: Yes.
You mentioned that you have a budget of $1,800 from the City of Ottawa, plus a support services person. Does your advisory committee receive any other funding at all?
[Translation]
Mr. Cloutier: No. Do you mean individually? As members?
[English]
Mr. Breitkreuz: No. I mean your advisory committee. Does your advisory committee receive any other funding from any source at all?
[Translation]
Mr. Cloutier: No. We've already received a contribution, as I mentioned earlier to Mr. Dupuy, I believe. We've received financial support to help us develop a policy for public meetings. However, once again, we were provided with this very minimal financial support for the purposes of developing a policy that could be used by other municipalities. In fact, other municipalities could use what we want to develop.
[English]
The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Serré): Mr. Breitkreuz, if you will permit me, we have some business of the committee that we have to deal with in camera afterwards. We have maybe another five minutes, so I think I will allow each member of the committee who so desires to ask one question, with a maximum of two minutes, and then we'll have to go in camera.
Mr. Marchand.
[Translation]
Mr. Marchand: We could extend the meeting, given that the subject is so interesting. If there are questions, I think it would truly worthwhile. I don't think our internal in camera deliberations are...
Senator Robichaud: One minute.
Mr. Marchand: One minute. In answer to my colleague, Mr. Rivest, regarding assimilation in Ottawa and in other Ontario municipalities, a study was published by Charles Castonguay, a professor of mathematics at the University of Ottawa, which confirms that assimilation in Ottawa, the capital of Canada, was approximately 30% between 1971 and 1991. Therefore, based on recognized statistics, assimilation would be 30% in Ottawa and approximately 36% in the rest of Ontario.
Let us come back to your suggestion, Mr. Cloutier, that I think is extremely important, about official languages and the City of Ottawa. There are several points we could ask questions about. However, given the lack of time...
You said that it might be advantageous to better integrate the various government levels, provincial, municipal and federal for the implementation of measures to better meet the needs of Francophones.
Who do you think would be in the best position to do that this and do you think that we need a study to find out how this could be done or how it could be implemented?
Mr. Cloutier: Personally, every time I hear studies mentioned... In my field, we seem to face an endless stream of these types of studies or similar exercises. I think that the situation is relatively clear. I imagine that in one way or another, the federal government could be the motor for the project in order to facilitate co-operation between the various parties involved, don't you agree? The parties involved could also be community groups.
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We can then agree on an action plan and decide that over the next three years, we will deal with such and such a problem in such and such a way. The decision would then be made for federal institutions to do some things, regional municipalities to do other things and the Ottawa municipality to do different things, and so on.
This would give us an opportunity to come up with a game plan. Currently, we are not meeting. Business people should be involved in this project as well as politicians.
Does that answer your question?
Mr. Marchand: Yes.
The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Serré): Senator Rivest, do you have another question?
Senator Rivest: No, I am fine.
[English]
The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Serré): Mr. Breitkreuz, do you have another question?
Mr. Breitkreuz: Just one, Mr. Chairman, and I'll just preface it by saying that I guess, as you mentioned, there is a sort of quota system, insofar as management is concerned, with the City of Ottawa officialdom. Are the City of Ottawa Advisory Committee on Languages and the Advisory Committee on French Language Services one and the same committee?
[Translation]
Mr. Cloutier: No, there is only one advisory committee on official languages, one only. Obviously, this committee ensures the application of the official languages policy.
[English]
Mr. Breitkreuz: Okay.
[Translation]
Mr. Cloutier: However, you understand that for all practical purposes, the official languages policy deals mainly with the French language, without taking anything away from...
[English]
Mr. Breitkreuz: Absolutely. I know that.
[Translation]
Mr. Cloutier: No, no.
The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Serré): Mr. Cloutier, we sincerely thank you for having testified as well as for having provided us with some very enlightening answers. I am certain that we will take this into account when we draft our report.
I would now ask the senators and the members to remain. We will now hold an in camera meeting. I would now ask the media and all those who are not part of this committee to leave.
[The meeting continues in camera]