[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]
Thursday, March 7, 1996
.1534 
[English]
The Clerk of the Committee: Hon. members, I see a quorum. In conformity with Standing Orders 106(1) and 106(2), your first item of business is to elect a chairperson. I am ready to receive motions to that effect.
[Translation]
I am ready to hear motions for the election of a Chairperson.
[English]
Ms Augustine (Etobicoke - Lakeshore): I move that Mr. Maurizio Bevilacqua be the chair of this committee.
.1535
The Clerk: Moved by Jean Augustine, seconded by
[Translation]
Francine Lalonde, that Mr. Maurizio Bevilacqua be elected Chair of the committee.
[English]
Mr. Johnston (Wetaskiwin): Could I ask for a recorded vote?
The Clerk: Is it the wish of the committee to have a recorded vote for the purpose of the election of the chair?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Motion agreed to: yeas 15, nays 0
The Chairman: I don't know what it means when everybody votes for you, but anyway....
First of all, thank you very much.
I'd like to set some guidelines very quickly. As you know, this committee is one of the most important committees in the House of Commons. We're going to be dealing with some serious issues that have impacts on people's lives and they have to be taken extremely seriously...as I'm sure we do with all issues.
As chair, of course, I'm going to exercise some leadership in this committee. I look forward to the collaboration of people from both the government side and opposition members. I'm sure it will be an extremely positive experience for us as we deal with key issues such as employment insurance and others that will be referred to this committee.
Without further ado, the floor is open for nominations for vice-chair.
Mr. Johnston: I would like to nominate Mrs. Jan Brown.
The Chairman: Moved by Mr. Johnston, seconded by Mrs. Jennings, that Ms Brown be elected vice-chair of the committee. Any other motions?
[Translation]
Mr. Dubé (Lévis): I move that Mrs. Francine Lalonde be elected Vice-Chair.
[English]
The Chairman: Moved by Mr. Dubé, seconded by Mr. Proud, that Ms Francine Lalonde be elected vice-chair of the committee.
Are there any further nominations?
Mr. Proud (Hillsborough): I nominate Jean Augustine.
.1540
Mr. Regan (Halifax West): I second the nomination.
The Chairman: We're dealing now with the first motion, moved by Dale Johnston, seconded by Mrs. Jennings.
Mrs. Jennings (Mission - Coquitlam): We will ask for a recorded vote.
The Chairman: Yes. We'll deal with the motion first, and then we'll get to the comments.
[Translation]
Mr. Dubé: It's possible that despite my two years of experience, I haven't clearly understood the process. Since there are to be two vice-chairs, is this round reserved for the election of the first Vice-Chair following which, in the second round, we will elect the second Vice-Chair? Could either the Clerk or the Chair clarify this for me since if there were to be a second round, Mrs. Lalonde's name would be withdrawn.
[English]
The Chairman: We'll deal with one motion at a time. Of course, if one person is defeated, we'll move on to the next motion.
Mr. Allmand (Notre-Dame-de-Grâce): On a point of order on that same issue, it is my understanding that when you have more than two motions to fill two positions, you take them in order. Obviously, if you want to elect the second and the third, then you have to defeat the first. You defeat the ones you don't want to deal with.
The Chairman: I think that's the way in which we'll deal with this particular one.
Mr. Allmand: It's the only way of dealing with it.
The Chairman: Absolutely. We all know that there are two vice-chairs. I will deal with the first motion, moved by Mr. Johnston, seconded by Mrs. Jennings, that Jan Brown be elected vice-chair of the committee.
Is it the will of the committee to have a recorded vote?
Some hon. members: Yes.
Motion negatived: nays 11; yeas 3
The Chairman: We'll move to the second motion, moved by Mr. Dubé, seconded byMr. Proud, that Madame Lalonde be elected vice-chair of this committee.
Mr. Johnston: We ask for a recorded vote.
Motion agreed to: yeas 11; nays 3
The Chairman: Congratulations, Mrs. Lalonde.
.1545
We'll move to the next motion. It has been moved by Mr. Proud, seconded by Mr. Regan, that Ms Jean Augustine be elected vice-chair of this committee.
Motion agreed to: yeas 12, nays 2
Mr. Nault (Kenora - Rainy River): Mr. Chairman, I would like to put it on the record that Mr. O'Brien isn't here. He's being replaced by Mr. Collins. I would hope that is how it shows, because on a recorded vote we would not want any irregularities.
The Chairman: Congratulations, Ms Augustine.
[Translation]
Mrs. Lalonde (Mercier): I'm sorry, Mr. Chairman, but I have to leave. This is not my customary behaviour, but I must catch a plane. Until next time. I trust that we will meeting very soon to begin hearing from witnesses. Thank you.
[English]
The Chairman: Have a good flight, Madame Lalonde.
The next item on the agenda is that we have to strike a steering committee. It will consist basically of the committee chair, the parliamentary secretary, the two vice-chairs, and a member of the Reform Party. Do I have motions to announce the members? Is it agreed, first of all, that we proceed on this?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Mr. Nault: Mr. Chairman, it's the normal practice. From our side, anyway, I don't see any reason why it should change. It's up to the opposition to choose which members they want, but those are the members we wish to be on the committee.
The Chairman: Are there any comments from the opposition parties?
Mrs. Jennings: Is it appropriate now to nominate a member for the Reform?
The Chairman: Yes, it is.
Mrs. Jennings: I nominate Jan Brown.
The Chairman: Thank you. Jan Brown is the representative of the Reform Party.
Mr. McCormick (Hastings - Frontenac - Lennox and Addington): Mr. Chairman, a recorded vote, please.
The Chairman: Mr. McCormick, of course this is all in jest.
Mr. McCormick: No, Mr. Chair.
The Chairman: You'd like a recorded vote?
Mr. McCormick: Yes, please.
Mr. Allmand: Mr. Chairman, when it was proposed that the steering committee contain the parliamentary secretary...I presume you mean the parliamentary secretary for Human Resources Development, because I understand we also have with the committee the parliamentary secretary to the Minister of Labour. I think we should clarify it. I thought we meant Mr. Nault.
.1550
The Chairman: We did. It's the parliamentary secretary to the Minister of Human Resources Development who will be sitting on the steering committee.
Mr. Allmand: So the motion we're voting on is that the steering committee should consist of Bevilacqua, Augustine, Lalonde, Nault, and Jan Brown.
The Chairman: That's correct. Is that agreed?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
The Chairman: The next item on the agenda will be routine motions. You've all received them.
Mr. McCormick: On a point of order, I requested that we have a recorded vote on that list of candidates.
The Chairman: You're serious?
Mr. McCormick: Yes. There is a reason.
The Chairman: We'd like some clarification. Are you -
Mr. McCormick: Do we vote for that slate of officers?
The Chairman: For the entire slate?
Mr. McCormick: Those you have already named.
The Chairman: Would you like to deal with that as a unit or per person?
Mr. McCormick: As a unit.
An hon. member: Agreed.
The Chairman: Okay.
Mr. Allmand: I already made the motion that we go with the four persons beyond the steering committee.
The Chairman: It's moved by Mr. Allmand, seconded by Mr. McCormick.
Some hon. members: We want a recorded vote.
The Chairman: Okay, let's go with a recorded vote.
Motion agreed to [See Minutes of Proceedings]
The Chairman: Congratulations.
Now we're moving back to routine motions. Everybody has a sheet -
An hon. member: Not everybody.
The Chairman: No? Then before we move forward on this, we'll wait for those to be distributed.
[Translation]
Mr. Dubé: I have a question concerning the third motion which reads as follows:
- That the Chair be authorized to hold meetings in order to receive and publish evidence when a
quorum is not present, provided that four (4) members of the committee be present and
provided that one member of the Opposition be present.
[English]
The Chairman: It's either of the two parties.
[Translation]
Mr. Dubé: This is different from the way we used to do things.
[English]
The Chairman: It's not a change, Mr. Dubé. It's always like that.
.1555
We want to move right along with these. There are two ways in which we can do this. We can deal with this one by one or we can deal with it as a single unit.
Mr. Johnston: On a point of clarification, I understand these are exactly the same routine motions that we would have approved at the last organizational meeting.
The Chairman: That's correct.
Mr. Johnston: I therefore move that they all be lumped into one.
Mrs. Brown (Calgary Southeast): I'll second that.
Mr. Allmand: I have a question. The second one says ``That the committee print its Minutes of Proceedings as established by the Board of Internal Economy''. What is the most recent edict of the Board of Internal Economy on these matters? I ask this because I don't know what I'm agreeing to.
The Chairman: I've been asking for some guidance from the clerks. We print approximately 200 copies, and thereafter upon request of the committee. I understand that this is the rule of the board.
Mr. Allmand: So we could always have it increased if we felt it was necessary?
The Chairman: That is correct.
Mr. Allmand: Good. I agree to it. I don't like it, but I'll agree to it.
The Chairman: For the fiscally sensitive here, we will have to pay for any extra copies from our committee budget.
Mr. Allmand: Over 200?
The Chairman: That's right.
Mr. Allmand: Then we'd better be careful about who we will distribute the 200 to. At some time we should be informed as to who gets these 200.
The Chairman: Okay.
Mr. Allmand: I know we like to give them to the people who have appeared. We always send copies to the ones who have testified, but who else do we send them to? I don't want you to answer the question today, but maybe -
The Chairman: We'll see.
Mr. Allmand: As you've pointed out, there is a lot of interest in the work of this committee, and a lot of people would like to know what we're doing, what we're saying, and so on. So sometime in the next week or so I wouldn't mind knowing who will get the 200.
The Chairman: Of course the committee - if it wishes to increase its coverage - can always have others printed, provided the committee is willing to pay for them. That's a given.
Mr. Allmand: That would be exceptional.
The Chairman: I want to bring to the attention of committee members that they will also be available through the Internet. Perhaps you can publicize this through your householders and what have you, if you're very interested in getting the message out.
Is it the will of the committee to accept the motions?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
[Translation]
Mr. Crête (Kamouraska - Rivière-du-Loup): When is the steering committee scheduled to meet next?
[English]
The Chairman: I want the meeting to go in camera for a few minutes in order to discuss future business. Is it the will of the committee to do that?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Mr. Allmand: I'm not necessarily opposed, but I don't know why we're going in camera.
Ms Augustine: [Inaudible - Editor]
Mr. Allmand: I can't hear you.
.1600
Mrs. Terrana (Vancouver East): We won't know until we get it....
Mr. Allmand: That's not the usual way of doing things. We usually go in camera when we're discussing a report.
An hon. member: We're just following the usual order of reference this morning.
The Chairman: I just want to bring to the attention of the committee, for example, the reference we received from the House in reference to two bills and to discuss some planning issues. I think it would be wise for us to go in camera. If you don't want to do that, that's fine. My recommendation is to move in camera.
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Mr. Allmand: Mr. Chairman, I want to explain it too. In a democratic society, in a parliamentary system, going in camera is an exceptional thing and we should do it only for exceptional reasons. The committee has made a decision, but I would like you to consider that in future we go in camera only when we really need to.
The Chairman: Thank you, Mr. Allmand.
I'll suspend for two or three minutes. The meeting will be right back in camera.
[Proceedings continue in camera]
.1650
[Public proceedings resume]
The Chairman: Now, here we go. Mr. Allmand.
Mr. Allmand: I move that next week we meet on Tuesday from 3:30 p.m. to 5:30 p.m., as suggested, on Wednesday from 3:30 p.m. to 5:30 p.m., and on Thursday from 9 a.m. to noon and from 3:30 p.m. to 5:30 p.m.; and that the chair, with the clerk, invite to come witnesses who have already been on the list; and that the steering committee meet to decide the schedule of witnesses for the following weeks.
Ms Augustine: I second the motion.
[Translation]
Mr. Crête: I would like some clarifications. Have I understood correctly that we will be hearing from national agencies next week?
Mr. Allmand: Yes.
Mr. Crête: And this is acceptable?
[English]
The Chairman: Yes.
Motion agreed to
Mr. Allmand: I move that you report Bill C-86, or whatever it's called -
The Chairman: Bill C-11, the former Bill C-96.
Mr. Allmand: What's it called now?
The Chairman: Bill C-11.
Mr. Nault: As a point of clarification, could I ask the clerk to inform us of which national organizations will come in the next few days. I ask this because we need to block our time and start right off the bat with this cooperation. If there are some major national organizations, then I don't want them to come for half an hour; I want them to come for an hour. If we could find out, then we could probably start this process already.
Mrs. Brown: Further to that - and this is something that has been raised before - if there are any briefing documents that we could have beforehand so that we will be better prepared, it's going to make the session much more effective and much more efficient. I would really like to see those circulated to us prior to our hearing the witnesses.
The Chairman: Mrs. Brown, I would like to tell the clerk that all briefs received up to today should be distributed to all members of the committee. That's a direction from the chair.
Mrs. Brown: Thank you.
[Translation]
Mr. Crête: Will the briefs be available on the Internet? The committee reviewing the mandate of the Canada Post Corporation has already submitted several briefs and they are all on the Internet. Is that correct? I see.
[English]
The Chairman: It's not on the Internet.
Is it the will of the committee to adopt the following motion?
Mr. Allmand: Which one?
The Clerk: That the report the committee had prepared as its 11th report to the House in the first session of the 35th Parliament be adopted as the first report of the committee in the second session, and that the chairman be ordered to table it in the House.
Mr. Allmand: Is that with respect to the bill?
The Chairman: Yes, it is.
Mr. Allmand: That's what I moved.
Mr. Proud: I second the motion.
Mr. Allmand: I understand you dealt with that bill and it was all ready to be reported.
The Chairman: Yes.
Motion agreed to on division
The Chairman: On a point of clarification, we all have this document. We agree that this is the witness list. In order to get the ball rolling, we're going to require that members of the government side and opposition members provide to the clerk as soon as possible the names of the organization they would like to appear. I'd like somebody to move a motion that will give a deadline to that particular item. As a committee, we need to decide.
[Translation]
Mr. Crête: Is this only for next week or for the entire study? Does this apply only to the witnesses that we will be meeting next week?
[English]
The Chairman: Including the ones we are going to meet next week.
[Translation]
Mr. Crête: I understand. As for the others, will we be proceeding according to the same timetable?
.1655
[English]
The Chairman: Yes.
Mr. Allmand: Mr. Chairman, I've already moved and we've adopted a motion that the steering committee should get together and decide on your schedule of witnesses. That was part of my motion, and it was agreed to. You want a deadline.
The Chairman: Exactly. There's an issue here. They have to call these individuals. The steering committee then must meet tomorrow.
Mr. Allmand: No, for next week my motion said you and the clerk.
The Chairman: For next week it's the chair. Great. Okay. And for the other ones.... Okay, that's good.
Mr. Nault: Next week we'll be distributing...it will be up to your discretion....
The Chairman: Okay. Good.
Mr. Allmand: And it has to be national groups.
The Chairman: Absolutely, Mr. Allmand.
Mr. Allmand: Mr. Nault suggested that if it's a big group we give them more than half an hour. Bob suggested if it is a major group they not get just a half an hour. So when you're doing the scheduling, would you keep that in mind?
The Chairman: Right. I think there has to be an agreement among the three parties vis-à-vis the time units I was referring to earlier.
[Translation]
Mr. Crête: That's a good idea.
[English]
The Chairman: Can we please clarify this now?
Mr. Allmand: Why don't you consult with them?
Mr. Nault: Mr. Chairman, my intent, at least from our perspective - and we've suggested this already - was that we would get together as the three parties and look at the national organizations and the ones we feel we can share our units with, and we will go to an hour. I think we should.
The Chairman: Mr. Nault, just for clarification here, do we agree with the following: that the committee adopt the witness list sent by the clerk and proceed to its choice of witnesses according to the following guidelines - and I'm referring now to the 60-20-20 - although there's a clear understanding between Mrs. Brown and Mr Nault, a willingness to cooperate and share some of those units? Is that clear? Can I have that as a formal motion?
Mr. Nault: I so move. That's the normal process we've always followed, right?
The Chairman: Okay, it's moved by Mr. Nault that the committee adopt the witness list sent by the clerk and proceed to its choice of witnesses according to the following guidelines: Liberal Party, 60 witnesses; Bloc Québécois, 20; Reform Party, 20. Each witness appearance must not exceed30 minutes unless they are, of course, part of 2 units.
Motion agreed to
Mr. Allmand: What we're saying there is that they can take 30 minutes, but it can be an hour.
The Chairman: It can be an hour, upon agreement, provided -
An hon. member: The two parties agree.
The Chairman: Or you're willing to use two units. We're going to have a total of a hundred units. How you use your sixty is up to you. The point I'm making is that the maximum number of units you can use for one presenter is two, basically. So it's one hour. That's clear.
Mr. Crête.
[Translation]
Mr. Crête: I checked the witness list and I saw there was no one identified with national groups. They are all grouped together by province.
[English]
The Chairman: Yes. So the motion was approved.
Mrs. Brown: Mr. Chairman, it's just been brought to my attention that there is a name on this list that we had expected would be here and it's not. I'm just wondering if because of prorogation this individual then did not submit his name as a witness. It's Kerry Worgan from Ontario.
The Chairman: Would you like him to appear?
Mrs. Brown: All I'm asking for is some flexibility. Yes, I would, if it's at all possible. I'm going to have to check and see what happened. Is that okay?
The Chairman: Is there agreement for that?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Mr. Nault: If any others are not on that list, can we have the steering committee bring them and then we'll put them on?
Mrs. Brown: I just want to find out what happened to him and why he's not here.
Mr. Nault: They're your units. If you want to add a couple of people -
The Chairman: So there's agreement on that?
Mrs. Brown: Yes. Thank you.
.1700
The Chairman: Now we want to deal with the deadline for submission. Someone can move this motion: that the briefs concerning the study of the bill be forwarded to the office of the clerk of the committee no later than Friday, March 22, 1996.
Ms Augustine: I so move.
Mr. Proud: I second the motion.
Mr. Allmand: How are we going to let the groups know they have that deadline?
The Chairman: The clerk has addressed this issue. I'll let him explain it to you.
The Clerk: If it's the will of the committee, in order to inform all witnesses who have submitted a request to appear - because we've already sent them a letter indicating that the House has prorogued - we will advise them when the committee will reconvene on the same issue. So if you instruct me or the chair, I can write a letter to the 250 or so witnesses to tell them that Bill C-111 is now Bill C-12 and that we will reconvene to discuss the bill and that they should submit their briefs before March 22.
The Chairman: Mr. Allmand, are you moving that?
Mr. Allmand: Yes, I support that.
Motion agreed to
Mr. Allmand: May I also suggest that you put a notice on the parliamentary network.
The Chairman: Is there agreement to put the notices on the parliamentary network?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Mr. Allmand: And the deadline is March 22?
The Chairman: That's right.
Mr. Allmand: A letter and the parliamentary network.
[Translation]
Mr. Crête: Will our proceedings be televised?
[English]
The Chairman: We won't be televised live, but the tapes will be given to CPAC for transmission. Does that answer your question? Okay.
This meeting stands adjourned to the call of the chair.