[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]
Tuesday, April 8, 1997
.1718 
[Translation]
The Chairman (Mr. Roger Simmons (Burin - St. George's, Lib.)): The meeting will come to order.
Although we are still waiting for some committee members, we will begin. Good morning everyone. As Chairman of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Health and on behalf of all members of the committee, I am pleased to welcome here today the members of the Cultural, Family and Social Affairs Commission of the National Assembly of the Republic of France.
Allow me to introduce to you the members of our committee: first, from the Official Opposition, the Bloc Québécois, my colleagues Pierre de Savoye and Pauline Picard, both of whom hail from the province of Quebec; from the third party in the House of Commons, the Reform Party, Grant Hill from Alberta; and finally, from the government party, the Liberal Party of Canada, Andy Scott from New Brunswick, John Murphy from Nova Scotia, Herb Dhaliwal from British Columbia and yours truly, Roger Simmons, from Newfoundland.
Mr. Jacquat, perhaps you would care to introduce your colleagues?
Mr. Denis Jacquat (MP, Member of the Cultural, Family and Social Affairs Commission, National Assembly of the Republic of France): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Allow me to introduce my colleagues on the Social Affairs Commission of the French National Assembly. With me are Bernard Leccia, Deputy Mayor of Marseille and a physician; Michel Ghysel, the Member for Roubaix in the north of France, and also a physician; Francisque Perrut, a retired professor and a member for Villefranche-sur-Saône, north of Lyon; Claude Bartolone, Deputy Mayor of Pré-Saint-Gervais, a commune located to the northeast, on the outskirts of Paris; and yours truly, Denis Jacquat, the Member for Metz and an ORL physician.
.1720
Accompanying the commission members are Mrs. Patriarche, a National Assembly administrator responsible for health issues, and Mr. Laurent Polonceaux, second secretary at the French embassy here in Ottawa. We are very happy to be here today.
The Chairman: We have been informed that your commission would like to discuss issues relating to alcohol and health care, in particular prevention and treatment mechanisms. The members of the Standing Committee on Health and the research staff will endeavour to answer all of your questions. We have here with us a representative of the federal Department of Health, namely Jim Anderson, who will able to supply you with additional details.
As you undoubtedly know, another committee undertook a study of the federal drug strategy in the fall of 1996. The study focussed on substances such as tobacco, alcohol, prescription drugs and illicit drugs such as cannabis and heroin. The committee held round table discussions on tobacco, illicit drugs and prescription medication. In a few weeks time, we will be holding a round table on alcohol-related problems. If you like, the committee can send you the transcripts of these proceedings once they become available.
The committee's research officers, Odette Madore and Nancy Miller Chenier, have compiled information on alcohol use in Canada and you have already received a copy of this material. The committee clerk, Pierre Rodrigue, has also distributed some background material to you. I hope that this information will prove useful.
Perhaps you would like to add something, Mr. Jacquat. We are prepared to answer any questions you may have.
Mr. Jacquat: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you also for the background material. We have already glanced at it quickly and it is just what we wanted. Thank you in advance for agreeing to send us the transcripts of the round table proceedings.
Let me begin by stating for the record the purpose of our mission to Canada. Our country is currently grappling with a serious problem, namely young people who go on Saturday night binges. In France, we refer to this phenomenon as "la défonce du samedi soir". We are not accustomed to dealing with this phenomenon which is somewhat overshadowed by other concerns such as addiction to soft and hard drugs and other substances. On closer analysis, we have come to realize that what we are dealing with here are young people who mix alcohol and drugs.
While we do have some ideas of our own and we have consulted with many people in our own country, we felt it would be a good idea to see how this problem was being addressed abroad. Before coming here to Canada and going on to the United States, we travelled to Sweden and to Italy.
Basically, our objective is to find out what you are doing here in Canada to stop young people from abusing alcohol, a phenomenon which seems to be on the upswing, particularly since we know that very often, alcoholism and soft drug use are linked to socioeconomic problems within families. We would like to know how you deal with this problem.
Of course, this is an interactive meeting, interactive being a very trendy word. Therefore, I believe an exchange of questions and answers will be the best way to approach this subject.
The Chairman: Today, you will be the ones asking the questions.
[English]
Pierre, would you like to respond to the general question first of all?
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[Translation]
Mr. Pierre de Savoye (Portneuf, BQ): Sirs, I had the pleasure of welcoming you earlier and I am pleased to do so again. We here on this committee cannot provide you with ready-made answers to the important questions that you raise. Your knowledge and observations will no doubt give us further food for thought.
If I had to summarize in one word the mechanism that I feel is the most successful in preventing or controlling alcohol-related problems, I would have to say that it is education. The witnesses that we have heard from often stated that a punitive or restrictive approach didn't work. However, education, particularly when targeted at young people, has proved more successful, although efforts in this area have not, admittedly, been sustained. This is not necessarily a new problem, but rather one that we are approaching from a different perspective. Accordingly, past experiences vary widely from one region of a country to the next.
At one extreme, we have our native populations experiencing stressful situations which have resulted in alcohol abuse. Their representatives have told us that the best way to counter this problem was to help families and individuals regain some pride and control of their own destiny, which amounts to another form of education or educational initiative.
I could go on about this subject for two hours, but I think the Chairman would disapprove. Therefore, Mr. Chairman, let me turn the floor back over to you.
The Chairman: Madam Vice-Chairman, would you care to comment?
Mrs. Pauline Picard (Drummond, BQ): Yes, I would like to give you a more concrete example to demonstrate a point. Pierre talked about awareness or education. The Société d'assurance-automobile du Québec reported that its advertising had had a significant impact on young people, and that the incidence of drinking and driving had declined substantially among people in this age group.
I'm sure the official you met in Montreal talked to you about the one-year advertising campaign which targeted young people and heightened their awareness of the problem, and at the same time the awareness of adults in general. Part of this awareness and education campaign involved showing shocking images of the aftermath of accidents caused by young drivers, that is the resulting fatalities, as well as the victims who were left disabled. Like Pierre, I feel that one effective approach is to heighten public awareness of the phenomenon and of the consequences of alcohol abuse.
The Chairman: Mr. Grant Hill.
Mr. Grant Hill (Macleod, Ref.): You say that there is a serious problem in France. Our statistics indicate that approximately 72% of Canadians consume alcohol. Do you have similar statistics available for your country? It would be very useful for us to be able to compare the two countries.
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Mr. Jacquat: The numbers are virtually the same for both countries. On the one hand, the overall level of alcohol consumption has declined while on the other hand, even if the percentages are difficult to establish, we know that young people are starting to drink at an earlier age, and that they are drinking more. We have observed that young people from extremely disadvantaged backgrounds start out by using soft drugs, then turn to hard drugs and ultimately, exhibit delinquent behaviour.
As you yourself and Mrs. Picard mentioned a few moments ago, we went to the province of Quebec and met with representatives of Éduc'alcool, in particular Mrs. Nadeau. We too believe, and our presence in your country reaffirms this deep-rooted conviction, that we must concentrate our efforts, like Mr. de Savoye said, on educating young people. There is no question about that. AsMrs. Picard said, one of the ways of educating people about alcohol abuse is to resort to advertising, as Canadian insurance companies have done did. In Canada as well as in France, there is a hard core group of drinkers to whom we can't seem to get the message across. Should we resort to the same kind of public service announcements that we viewed on Canadian television? These were so violent that even people who were not heavy drinkers either turned off their television set or changed channels when the announcements were broadcast.
In response to Mr. Hill's question, we do have similar problems that we are trying to resolve. We would not wish to discount any valid ideas that may have been suggested in the past. However, alcohol-related problems have been somewhat overshadowed by problems associated with soft and hard drug use. Nevertheless, the fact remains that alcohol is responsible for more fatalities in our country than drugs in general. That is an extremely important consideration.
[English]
The Chairman: John.
Mr. John Murphy (Annapolis Valley - Hants, Lib.): Again, welcome.
Let me apologize. I don't speak French, but you'll have the translation.
As you have indicated, drinking among youths is a serious problem in your country. It's considerably on the rise in this country as well.
Let me just try to narrow it down to an area in Nova Scotia where I've been involved in helping a treatment program get started. Rather than looking at the adult population, we looked at the youth. We have an alcoholism treatment, prevention and educational program. A lot of work is done in the grade schools and the high schools. We've organized it in such a fashion that we've brought together the major players, like social services, health, education, the police and correctional services.
We have a volunteer system in an area with a population of about 45,000. There are over300 volunteers available through the program to relate to kids and adults who have indicated that there's a difficulty. The volunteers become mentors, in a way. They are generally people who have gone through the AA program. You will also find guidance counsellors in this group. They work out strategies for education within the school system. Peer education is another aspect they use. We also have MADD - Mothers Against Drunk Drivers - which I'm sure you're familiar with.
We also use tax dollars that come from the sale of alcohol. Some of those dollars are put back into education and treatment. It's always an anomaly to me that we sell all this alcohol and then take some of the proceeds to treat the carnage. Anyway, that's what we tend to do.
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I think we have found that the programs, particularly the education and prevention types, with all of these agencies working together, have made a difference in helping young people recognize the problems related to alcohol. I think the peer education program is a good one. Most of the schools have it, and they find it very effective. These are young people who are really leaders in the school system, who may have flirted - more than flirted - with alcohol and the use of alcohol.
There's also a visual thing they do. Often you'll go by a high school and see a wrecked car that has been a result of an alcohol-related accident. The history of what happened in that accident is available to students.
That's a program that's alive and well and has been going on in my area for maybe the last10 years. They have done studies, and the use of alcohol has diminished amongst youths. I can't tell you the percentage, although I suspect it would be fairly low.
At any rate, that's a thumbnail sketch of what's happening there.
[Translation]
The Chairman: We will now hear from a Quebec MP, Michel Dupuy, who is a member of the governing Liberal Party.
[English]
Lady and gentlemen, I'm not sure how to do this - I've never chaired two committees at the same time before - and I don't care who asks the questions and who gives the answers, but maybe between the two of us...
[Translation]
Do the commission members have any further questions?
Mr. Jacquat: Yes, the French always have questions, but some of your colleagues may have other questions that they would like to ask or, perhaps as Mr. Murphy just did, they would like to talk about personal experiences, such as relating the incident in Nova Scotia where car wrecks were displayed. I think that this would have a powerful impact on young people. They have to be made to understand the extent of the problem.
[English]
The Chairman: Andy Scott.
Mr. Andy Scott (Fredericton - York - Sunbury, Lib.): Thanks.
[Translation]
Welcome to Canada and to our committee.
[English]
I would be interested in knowing whether you have research that would determine whether there is a correlation between the incidence of the problem and the socio-economic condition of the young people you've targeted.
I ask this because I think we find very often, particularly when we are doing advertising and educational and social marketing exercises, that we have a tendency to market to the most accessible target in that age group, whether that's the source of the problem or not.
In my own province of New Brunswick more than 25% of the population doesn't read at a grade 9 level. At the same time - and I'm guessing now; I don't know this - the percentage of the problem with alcohol is probably higher in that community than it is in the balance of the community, yet much of the marketing, much of the educational effort, is through the printed word. Consequently, it points out the inadequacy of that medium in terms of getting the message to that community.
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I'm curious as to whether you have been able to identify if there is a specific socio-economic target group. If so, how have you dealt with that particular problem?
[Translation]
Mr. Jacquat: To answer your question, Mr. Scott, one of the reasons why we decided to go abroad is that we noted an increase in alcohol consumption by young people, particularly on Saturday nights; this is one particular day that has been singled out. Those involved are often young people between this ages of 16 and 25, very often from single parent families, that is they have a mother but no father. Very often, the mother is in dire financial straits and has no moral influence over her child or children. Quite often, these young people did poorly in school, ran away or frequently skipped school, didn't often work, if they ever worked at all, or found only casual work, given that their own lives were not very stable.
These young people seem to be looking for thrills and excitement. Very often, they start out by drinking beer and move on to stronger spirits, and then to soft drugs such as hashish or cannabis which they ingest quickly and mix with alcohol.
Another lesser known phenomenon that we have also observed in our country is that women who live alone and who sometimes are single parents, either because their husbands left them or they never married, are prone to alcoholism. Women who drink alone.
These are two possible answers to your question. We have targeted very specific groups of people. We also believe, and this ties in with the follow-up treatment I referred to earlier, that the education issue needs to be addressed. Since parents, and mothers in particular, seem unable to handle their children, it is our duty as a government and as a community to take up the slack and exercise some influence over young people, particularly on a psychological level, when it can still make a difference, and often this is between the ages of 5 and 12. We advocate taking preventive action at a very early age.
This morning, we heard about Éduc'alcool, a Quebec program which our delegation found quite remarkable.
Mr. Bartolone.
Mr. Claude Bartolone (Member of the Cultural, Family and Social Affairs Commission of the National Assembly of the Republic of France): I too would like to thank you for your gracious reception.
You have given us some idea of the initiatives taken by the provinces as well as by the federal government. On this subject, I too have a question for you. As my colleague Denis Jacquat mentioned, as far as causes and numbers are concerned, we are dealing with more or less the same problems: we have similar statistics on the number of men who drink, on the number of young people who drink and on the percentage of the population that seems impervious to any kind of prevention program, even ones involving drastic action. Some initiatives, however, do not come from the local or provincial level, but rather from national, or in your case federal authorities.
I would like to focus on two areas in particular: taxes and problems associated with advertising. I would like to know where you stand on the issue of taxation. Do you think that high taxes dissuade people from consuming alcohol?
Advertising is also a point to consider. If my information is correct, until quite recently, the federal government was responsible for regulating the content and format of radio and television advertisements.
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We realize full well that the education system must assume some responsibility for prevention programs. However, we also know that today, young students spend as much time in front of the television as they do with their teachers. Therefore, while the message must be imparted to students in the classroom, advertising must continue to play a vital role in this process.
Recently, you transferred this responsibility from the federal government to the radio and television industry. I would like to know what prompted you to arrive at this decision? What impact has the transfer to an agency such as this of the federal decision- making power over advertising regulations had?
The Chairman: I would ask Mr. Jim Anderson to answer your questions. Jim is a program consultant with the Health department. He deals with issues related to alcohol, drugs and dependency.
[English]
Mr. Jim Anderson (Committee Consultant): On the question of alcohol advertising on television and radio, I sat on the screening committee at the Canadian Radio Television and Telecommunications Commission, and have about eight years' experience in assessing the advertisements that appear on the air.
The CRTC decided it would discontinue direct regulation of broadcast alcohol advertising on the position that the broadcasters themselves should know, over the years, what the regulations are and how to apply them. The broadcasters were not willing, particularly the private sector broadcasters, to assume this kind of screening function, and they turned it over to the Canadian Advertising Foundation, which is a private sector organization representing a broad spectrum of advertisers.
I should mention, though, that the code for the screening of broadcast alcohol advertising is still in effect, and if it so wishes the CRTC can respond to complaints on the part of the public, if such advertising is found to be offensive in the sense of influencing young people. That's pretty much the situation as it exists today.
[Translation]
The Chairman: Mr. Dupuy.
Mr. Michel Dupuy (Laval West, Lib.): The CRTC issues licenses to broadcasters. It reserves the right not to renew a license when it expires. Therefore, although some responsibilities have been transferred, ultimate responsibility rests with the CRTC.
The Chairman: Mrs. Picard.
Mrs. Pauline Picard: I would like to touch on another aspect of this question. You have stated that the problem of alcohol abuse is prevalent among young people. Are you seeing the same problem within other groups? For example, our statistics and data - and these can be verified - appear to indicate that alcohol abuse is a serious problem among native peoples and leads to major social problems. Have you witnessed this phenomenon among ethnic or other specific groups in France?
Mr. Bernard Leccia (MP, Member of the Cultural, Family and Social Affairs Commission of the National Assembly of the Republic of France): Like you, we have also noted that consumption has declined overall and that generally speaking, people are drinking less and consuming better quality alcoholic beverages. However, we have observed that drinking, especially by young people, is a rather acute problem.
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I would say that the problem primarily affects young people who are despondent and deeply discontent, particularly those who live in cities where life is a struggle. The future holds little hope for them, they cannot find a job, they have no skills and they are often illiterate. This class of young people are the most likely to consume the stronger alcoholic beverages often associated with the use of tranquillizers or drugs. Alcohol is also a serious problem among transient or homeless people, whose numbers are increasing. These individuals consume significant quantities of alcohol, generally wine.
How to deal with this major societal problem? We considered two options: implementing some specific measures and adopting legislation. A law was indeed passed and has been in force since January 1, 1997. I'm referring to the municipal recovery plan which targets troubled urban neighbourhoods. In addition to existing social and urban renewal measures, the plan contains an economic component designed to help many of the young people who live in these areas receive training and find employment. Up to 100,000 community service jobs have been created in five years and these are being offered to young people from troubled neighbourhoods. Generally speaking, these jobs provide them with some support. Thus, they can take on the role of intermediary in these neighbourhoods. Incumbents receive 10 hours a week of training for a total of 30 hours of work. While 100,000 jobs may not be a large number, given the extent of the problem, we nonetheless believe that they will help us get some youths back on track. The important thing is to find a way to help them readjust to living in society, to reeducate them and to encourage them, since they are not used to it, to take the employment route.
A while ago, you mentioned the problem of illiteracy which is very important. We are also drafting legislation which would prohibit the exclusion of illiterate persons from the labour force. The legislation would include measures to counter illiteracy and to involve these often despondent young people in a social project. We are trying to help them reintegrate society by promoting access to housing and also by attempting to create 300,000 jobs through comeback contracts.
We could spend many hours discussing alcoholism and young people, or at least the situation in our country. I am the elected representative of a troubled northern suburb of Marseille. We will be better able to fight this problem if we implement very stringent social reintegration measures.
Mrs. Picard: Do you have, as we do in each province, community associations or groups subsidized by the different levels of government, provincial or federal, that have set up counselling and treatment centres where young people can find a sponsor and undergo treatment for a period of time and receive follow-up attention so that they do not fall back into their old habits? Do you have treatment centres like this in your country?
M. Michel Ghysel (MP, Member of the Cultural, Family and Social Affairs Commission of the National Assembly of the Republic of France): I would like to answer that question since I am the Chairman of a National Assembly task force on addiction.
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Until now, France was grappling with the problem of addiction to illicit drugs in particular. I, along with Denis Jacquat and Claude Bartolone, had already been on missions to Holland, Italy and Sweden. However, we gradually observed that alcohol, while a legal substance in our country, was creating dependency problems for individuals and for society and, as Mr. Leccia just said, it is now critical that we consider the problem of addiction and dependency together. That is why I am here today with Chairman Jacquat.
To answer your question, in my view, addicts are people who have an addiction to illicit drugs, alcohol, prescription drugs or benzodiazepines, all of which can cause a dependency. The treatment program in place in France is in the process of evolving. The government will shortly be announcing a three-year plan to address addiction problems and next year, in 1998 - and that is why the mission headed by Denis Jacquat is important - it plans to unveil even more measures to fight alcoholism. Until now, the problem of alcoholism had been overshadowed by the struggle to deal with other forms of addiction.
Therefore, I hope, and I think my colleagues would agree with me, that we will come up with a comprehensive plan to deal with addiction in its many forms. Of course, it is important to eliminate all forms of dependency, but it is still more important to prevent them in the first place. That is why we have come here to see the kinds of prevention programs that you have implemented.
Until now, French law enabled us to use a certain amount of deterrence when dealing with drug traffickers, although, like all repressive legislation, there were limitations. Getting back to your question, to help people deal with their dependency problems, we offer them withdrawal treatment programs in a hospital setting. I heard that in addition to hospital care, you offered treatment on an out-patient basis. We do more of our work in a hospital setting, whether we are dealing with alcohol addiction, or heroin addiction.
In terms of aftercare, once persons have experienced physical withdrawal and have received medication to deal with their physical dependency, they need to acquire the psychological strength to return to their neighbourhood without fear of relapsing. This is when they are given the opportunity to join a treatment centre or therapeutic community.
That isn't the only option, but while I'm on the subject, we looked at these communities in Italy and found that they were large centres where the emphasis was on regenerating the human spirit. We would like the communities in France to be smaller and adapted to our reality.
The Chairman: Mr. de Savoye, and then Mr. Dhaliwal.
Mr. Pierre de Savoye: Earlier, Mrs. Picard talked about television advertisements developed by the Société d'assurance automobile du Québec, a provincial Crown corporation. I would like to draw a distinction between the type of advertising referred to earlier which, to all intents and purposes, restricts our options - this is passive intervention - and the active approach taken by the Société d'assurance automobile du Québec. I would like to share with you an experience that I had. A decade ago, it was customary that as the evening drew to a close, someone would turn to another person and say "You're man enough to have another drink". Of course, this was a sexist comment.
.1800
A decade later, people's behaviour has changed dramatically. Today, a person is likely to answer:"No, I'm driving", because advertising has helped to change the way people behave and their perception of reality.
Another phenomenon that has spread to Switzerland - I don't know if it has spread to France yet - is Operation Red Nose. Have you ever heard about it? This initiative, which was first launched in Quebec about 15 years ago, targets individuals who would not otherwise be affected by traditional advertising. During the holiday season, people can make a telephone call late at night and someone will come to drive them and their automobile home.
All kinds of people, from the highly educated to the least educated, use the program. I know, because I was a volunteer. This program also delivers a message, namely that people must drink responsibly.
In closing, I would like to talk to you about a paper that was submitted to our committee by a representative of a native group which is basically proposing a totally innovative approach. This was the first time I had seen anything like this. The paper advocates treating alcohol problems through proper nutrition, the premise being that certain individuals can metabolize the substance and have no problems, whereas others do experience physiological problems. Can alcoholism be countered through proper nutrition? This paper argues that it can. With your permission, Mr. Chairman, I would like to distribute a copy of it to our visitors. Thank you.
Mr. Jacquat: Yes, this is a major problem and, as Mr. de Savoye said, much has been written about it. However, I am sometimes very wary of these publications. Growers in many of France's wine-producing regions are represented by parliamentarians who sometimes will use this type of document to claim that alcohol is almost beneficial to a person's health.
Therefore, I think we have to be careful about papers like this. Many factors can affect how a person's body metabolizes alcohol, namely sex, fatigue, age and weight. We have to be very careful and sometimes look at who commissioned the study. Was it commissioned by the major distillers? All kinds of things have been written. We the members of the French delegation are not at all interested in banning alcohol, but rather in advocating moderation. Moderation is extremely important. In our view, a total ban never achieves the desired results.
Mr. Pierre de Savoye: Mr. Chairman, I would like to clarify one small point. The study does not suggest that consuming alcohol is a possible treatment, but rather suggests that proper nutrition can help to ward off alcohol-related problems.
Mr. Jacquat: It's true that a person's blood alcohol level can be totally different, depending on whether the alcohol was consumed on an empty stomach or during the course of a meal.
Mr. Pierre de Savoye: I suggest you read the study.
Mr. Jacquat: Thank you. We have with us the member for Beaujolais.
Mr. Francisque Perrut (MP, Member of the Cultural, Family and Social Affairs Commission of the National Assembly of the Republic of France): With your permission, I would just like to add something to that. Obviously, I represent a wine-growing region and our wines are enjoyed here in Canada, as you are familiar with Beaujolais. Getting back to what my colleague said, when talking about prevention, the important thing is not to ban alcohol outright, but rather to educate people at a young age to have a reasonable, healthy attitude toward alcohol or wine.
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We have also taken a number of initiatives in our country. We are getting ready to launch Éduc'alcool, although on a smaller scale than what you told about this morning. Personally, I was rather surprised to see the amazing initiatives that Éduc'alcool has undertaken. However, we are talking here about independent or privately sponsored initiatives.
I was curious to know if in your country, the educational sector officially participates in prevention programs? Are educators trained to provide health care instructions to students at the college level or even to children in primary schools?
Young people must be educated as early as possible, taught how to drink and appreciate wine, but above all taught that wine is beneficial only if consumed in moderation and that there are dangers associated with alcohol abuse. If children are taught at an early age, when they reach adolescence and adulthood, they will be more cautious when it comes to drinking. It is better to adopt this approach than to tell young people that they should not drink any alcohol at all.
At present, some of the responsibility clearly rest with youth educators. I myself am involved in the field of education and I see how a teacher, and not only a specialized instructor, can have an influence on students. This is true of regular and master teachers as well as of those who teach a language, French or any subject. Teachers have full responsibility for training young people. This subject should be part of the curriculum. We are trying to develop such a program, but our efforts are sporadic at best, and often they depend on the goodwill of teachers who want to get involved. That's what I wanted to say.
The Chairman: We have five minutes left before we are expected at a reception where alcohol may well be served.
[English]
Herb and then Michel.
Mr. Herb Dhaliwal (Vancouver South, Lib.): Let me welcome all of you. I've had the opportunity to visit France on a number of occasions. I've been in the city of Marseilles, on the Côte D'Azur and other parts of France. I had very enjoyable trips when I was there.
I wanted to inform you of some experience I've had in that area. In one of the programs in which I was involved before going into politics, I worked on a volunteer basis with a group helping new immigrants. One of the things we found was that the mainstream programs to reduce alcoholism didn't work in certain ethnic groups. The success rate was very poor.
We got together with the employers, the provincial government and the community, and established a special program targeting a specific ethnic group for which mainstream programs were not very helpful. We found that when this was custom-made toward that group, the success rate was much higher than it was on the mainstream programs. We also found that the employers benefited from it, because there's a huge economic cost to employers when they have employees who abuse alcohol. We were able to get this program going and I think help a lot of people.
Have you targeted certain groups for which the mainstream or national programs may not be as helpful, and custom-designed programs with the involvement of the people in that community? Maybe you can respond to that. We had good experience in the program I was involved in, with a much improved success rate over the mainstream programs.
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[Translation]
Mr. Jacquat: As far as alcoholism and ethnic problems are concerned, a study is being conducted of our country's residents, but we have not targeted foreigners in particular. However,Dr. Ghysel could answer your question regarding soft or hard drugs. We have determined that the problem is most prevalent among young Maghrebians and West Indians. We have singled out these two groups.
Mr. Michel Dupuy: On hearing you describe the problem, we get the impression that it is more urban than rural and that the cause is the disadvantaged status of certain residents of urban areas. Is alcoholism still a problem in rural areas? I know that some people drink calvados and fine cognac. Has the problem shifted from urban to rural areas or are you facing a problem on both fronts?
Mr. Jacquat: As I indicated earlier, alcoholism in general is clearly declining in our country for several reasons, most notably very important educational initiatives. People are also being more selective about the alcohol they consume.
As for rural areas, the problem has decreased dramatically, not just because of the reasons I cited, but also because of police spot checks to prevent drinking and driving. Currently, the acceptable blood alcohol level is 0.5 and believe me, the change from 0.8 to 0.5 scared people. As a precautionary measure, even parliamentarians, after having a friendly drink, exercise extreme caution because if an accident happens, or if they are victims of an accident, even if they did not cause it, they may be tested. The police also conduct random spot checks. Your car can be pulled over, whether or not you are a Member of Parliament. Everyone is subject to these spot checks. Fear of the police is nonetheless an extremely important factor.
Perhaps Dr. Ghysel would like to add something to that.
Mr. Ghysel: Mr. Jacquat talked about alcohol problems in rural areas. He was referring primarily to a category of individuals who have already reached adulthood.
I would like to get back to our discussion on alcohol as a toxic substance which promotes dependency. Alcohol is a problem because it is one of a host of substances that generate dependency and adversely affect our youth. We are combatting the use of hashish and heroin and sometimes alternative drugs such as methadone and buprenorphine. Often, drug use in general moves from the cities where poor economic conditions prevail to rural areas where it becomes widespread.
Furthermore, when alternative drugs are administered to help young people kick their illicit drug habit, these young people often turn to alcohol as a substitute.
Finally, we are concerned about another point. Currently in our country, and this is probably true in other countries as well, violence peaks when alcohol and tranquillizers are mixed.
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Addiction leads to violent behaviour, whereas until now, the belief was that people resorted to violence initially to get money to buy drugs. The situation has evolved and this explains our presence here today.
[English]
The Chairman: John has a brief last word, I think.
Mr. John Murphy: Given that you're looking for some other kinds of models, particularly for youth, there is the therapeutic community model with a secondary prevention level. I talked about that community group of social service, education, health and counsellors, school and so on, volunteers, and corrections.
An example of the things we're doing in this program involves young people and the problem of Saturday night parties. If a party gets going and the police are called because of the noise, etc., on the next school day those young people are brought in to discuss the whole issue with someone. They may then be put out of school and their parents are brought together. They get an out-patient visit - an educational visit - with one of the volunteers or counsellors, and those kids have to spend two days in that program before they're allowed back into the school. This would also apply if there had been alcohol-drinking at a dance where it's prohibited at the school.
You'll find that because of the community model, if a young person ends up in juvenile court somebody will be there from the correctional setting with a volunteer who will pick that kid up again, and they'll have the opportunity for some kind of educational intervention. Kids don't get away. Because of all of these agencies working together, kids aren't slipping through. I think it's a very worthwhile model, and I thought I'd share that with you.
[Translation]
The Chairman: This concludes our discussion. I hope you found the exchange of views productive. Do you have any closing remarks?
Mr. Jacquat: Thank you. On behalf of my colleagues, I would like to present you with a memento of the French National Assembly. It's a working instrument.
The Chairman: Then I can use it on the Official Opposition.
Mr. Jacquat: I'll let you settle your problems amongst yourselves.
The Chairman: Our guests and the members of the committee are now invited to a reception hosted by the Canada-France Association in room 257-S. Dinner will be served at 7:30 pm at5 Coltrin Place.
[English]
It's at 5 Coltrin Place, not 20 Coltrin Street, which was on your invitation. Coltrin Place is immediately off Coltrin Street.
[Translation]
The meeting is adjourned.