[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]
Wednesday, April 23, 1997
.1550 
[English]
The Chairman (Mr. Roger Simmons (Burin - St. George's, Lib.)): Order, please.
The purpose of our being here this afternoon is to consider the order of reference from the House of March 21 to study the proposed tobacco regulations with regard to access, labelling, and reporting, and seizure and restoration.
Committee members, you have with you three documents. First, with regard to the commercially printed document, which is an extract of the Canada Gazette, would you just call that document A so we can have some ease of reference a little later on. Second, you have a fairly thin document of just three or four pages entitled ``Tobacco Access''; that will be B. You have another one on tobacco labelling, etc.; that will be C.
Are these all the documents we are dealing with?
A voice: Yes.
The Chairman: All right.
Now, let me just explain to the members who may not be aware that we did have this order of reference earlier, and we tried to address the issue earlier. There was some confusion yesterday as to what the urgency was. After the committee rose, I talked to some people, and they advised me it was important to have these regulations out of committee in case of a House dissolution. Hence, we are here this afternoon. We have with us some witnesses from the department, whom I will come to in a moment.
First let me talk about the documents in front of us. Document A is the document referred to us by the House. Documents B and C have been supplied to us by the department, and - correct me if I'm wrong - incorporate the proposed amendments to document A.
A voice: That's right.
The Chairman: All right.
We will be working from document A as the principal document in terms of motions until such time as we get to amendments.
.1555
Also, I'm still trying to find a format we can agree on, so I want you to stay real close with me. We're going to need some agreement on the process. We're breaking new ground here in the sense that a committee has not done this kind of thing with regulations before.
My proposal to you is that for the approval process, we treat it as a bill. So I would go through it clause-by-clause and see if there are amendments.
The clerk points out that a more expeditious way to do it, if you're so inclined, is to keep document A in front of you and compare it with document B. The shaded areas are the amendments. I suggest that if we go this route, we have someone at the other end of the table just make a brief opening statement on what we're trying to do here in terms of the regulations, and then we would go to the respective amendments and have somebody tell us the reasons for the amendments. At the end of the process we would have a motion to approve the regulations as amended or without amendment, as the case may be.
My suggestion is that we invite someone from the department to make a brief overview statement on the proposed regulations, that they then walk us through the proposed amendments, and of course we'll allow discussion as we go, and that once we've heard an explanation for all the amendments, we would then entertain a motion that the... As a matter of fact, the motion could be moved now. We're in order, and we're debating a particular motion.
If someone would give me a motion that the proposed tobacco regulations be approved -
A voice: As amended.
The Chairman: We'll see if they're as amended. You'd have to add that. But I need a motion.
Mr. Joseph Volpe (Eglinton - Lawrence, Lib.): I so move.
The Chairman: Joe just moved that we approve the tobacco regulations. That's what we're debating.
[Translation]
Ms Pauline Picard (Drummond, B.Q.): Mr. Chairman, I agree with your approach. I would just like to know whether I will have an opportunity to ask a few questions. I am not trying to slow things down, I just want to be sure I understand.
[English]
The Chairman: By all means. Just to repeat quickly what I said, I'd have an opening statement from the department. They would then explain to us each of the amendments, and at any time during that entire process any member can intervene and make a comment or ask a question.
Mr. Joseph Volpe: By way of clarification, Mr. Chairman, keeping in mind the pressure of the clock and the bells that will be sounding, I just had a quick consultation with my colleagues. I think it might help the process along if we give Mrs. Picard an opportunity to raise her questions now, and then we'll just have those addressed, if it is her pleasure.
[Translation]
Ms Pauline Picard: It might not be a good idea for me to ask my questions now. I do not intend to keep you here all evening. I have just a few questions, mainly about the supervision of inspectors. That is all. I prefer to ask my questions as we proceed, but I do not intend to keep you here all evening.
[English]
Mr. Joseph Volpe: Go ahead.
[Translation]
Ms Pauline Picard: No, I prefer to ask my questions later.
[English]
Mr. Joseph Volpe: Okay.
.1600
Mr. William E. Maga (Health Policy Division, Health Policy and Information Directorate, Department of Health): First of all, my name's Bill Maga, and I'm from the policy and consultation branch of the Department of Health. With me is Paul O'Brien, from the office of tobacco control of the Department of Health, and our legal counsel, Ann Sunahara, from the Department of Justice.
Considering the time constraints, I'll try to be very brief.
When Bill C-71 receives royal assent, there will be powers associated with the act to make a number of sets of regulations. We received advice from the Department of Justice that as soon as possible after the bill receives royal assent regulations should be made with regard to three areas: access, labelling and reporting, and seizure and restoration of tobacco products.
I should make the point right off the bat that essentially these regulations can be characterized as the implementation of the status quo, especially with regard to sales to minors, in that they will just continue the powers and regulations under the existing Tobacco Sales to Young Persons Act.
With regard to the labelling and reporting, this is going to establish the regime that was in place under the Tobacco Products Control Act prior to September 1995 and the decision of the Supreme Court.
The final section on seizure and restoration, if I can characterize it properly, is an improvement on the process by which citizens who've had product seized by inspectors can make application to get those goods returned.
As I mentioned, the tobacco access provisions and regulations will replace the tobacco sales to young persons regulations and will also add provisions that specify the documents that are acceptable for approving the age of the purchaser of tobacco products and to exempt duty-free shops from restrictions on self-service displays. The specification of documentation for proof of age essentially gives the retailer another tool to ensure the person he is selling to is of age and further protects him in that regard. The exemption to the duty-free shops is going to be allowed with regard to self-service displays because of the particular nature of the transactions that occur in duty-free shops - specifically, that it's a highly controlled environment, that people have to be leaving the country in order to purchase product, and that minors who are in there are most often accompanied by parents or guardians.
The labelling and reporting regulations, as I mentioned, re-establish the requirement for health messages and toxicant situate information. They also allow for attribution, which is directly specified by the Supreme Court as required for health warnings.
Finally, the seizure and restoration regulations implement procedural requirements with regard to the restoration of seized products.
I'll just describe briefly the consultation process associated with these regulations. The regulations were pre-published in the Canada Gazette, Part I, on March 29, with a 15-day consultation period, which ended on April 14. We had comments from the Canadian Cancer Society, the Non-Smokers' Rights Association, Physicians for a Smoke-Free Canada, the Canadian Tobacco Manufacturers' Council, and the National Association of Tobacco and Confectionery Distributors.
As a result of those submissions and consultations, certain changes were made to the proposed regulations. If you wish, perhaps at this point we could start our clause-by-clause consideration of those changes.
[Translation]
The Chairman: Ms Picard.
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Ms Pauline Picard: I have three short questions. You have tabled the regulations on tobacco labelling and access. Why don't we have the regulations on sponsorships?
Second, why are duty free shops exempted? In duty free shops, any one except a child may purchase cigarettes and alcohol. Why are we not exercising the same control in these locations? In addition, why is the burden of proof on retailers? Why should it not be the person who wants to use the product and asks for it? Why does the full responsibility rest with the retailer? Why is there no responsibility placed on the consumer?
[English]
Mr. Maga: Let me take your second question first. With regard to the burden of proof, it is in fact the responsibility of the purchaser to be able to prove they're of age. They're the ones who have to provide the documentation listed in the regulation that would specify their age. The retailer has a responsibility to try to establish in a reasonable manner that the person they may be selling to is of adequate age. It simply provides the retailer with a list of documents they may request in order for the person who wishes to buy tobacco to establish they're of age. So the onus is definitely on the purchaser to establish their age.
With regard to your question on the exemption for duty-free shops, again, I'd like to mention it's because of the particular nature of the environment and the way the duty-free shops are set up that we allowed this particular exemption. In addition to being able to establish age requirements, it is a highly controlled environment. You're at a border crossing, and people are usually leaving the country or coming back in order to be able to purchase product. Minors are not normally in duty-free shops without a parent or a guardian. So it's the nature of the retail setting that allowed us to exempt the duty-free stores.
[Translation]
Ms Pauline Picard: I'm sure you've been in duty free shops. I think that anyone may ask a person who meets the age requirement to purchase certain items. I do not find your argument convincing.
[English]
Mr. Maga: Another thing I should perhaps mention is that duty-free shops only sell cartons. So we have a price factor here, and we all know minors and youth are particularly price-sensitive when it comes to tobacco products. The difference between buying a single pack and a carton is quite significant, and this is an additional deterrent for minors to purchase in a duty-free store.
[Translation]
Ms Pauline Picard: And why have the regulations on sponsorships not been tabled?
[English]
Mr. Maga: What we intend to do with regard to the regulations under this act is that there are going to be three stages of regulations. This is the first stage. This is re-establishing, essentially, the status quo with a few changes, one in particular to follow the direction of the Supreme Court. The second stage will be regulations pursuant to part IV, promotion, which will include the regulations on the promotion of sponsored events. The third and final stage, which is a particularly long-term proposition, involves regulations on product standards. So it's a sequenced event.
.1610
I should mention that all the regulations will be subject to a rather intensive consultation process, in particular the regulations on promotion. That consultation process is going to be beginning shortly, and all interested parties will have ample opportunity to make their concerns known.
[Translation]
Ms Pauline Picard: I do not understand why the retailer only is punished. A young person under 18 who buys a package of cigarettes should be responsible and should know that the law exists. I don't understand why retailers only are being targeted, not consumers, as is the case with alcohol.
[English]
Mr. Maga: It has been a long-established departmental position that we view minors perhaps as - I hate to use the term ``victims'' - uninformed participants in the transaction. Essentially, what we want to do is control the sale of tobacco products to minors. It's the commercial enterprise that's responsible for ensuring minors are not allowed to purchase tobacco products. This is a piece of criminal legislation, and we do not want to saddle minors with criminal records as a result of this. So the onus is squarely on the retailers to bear the responsibility of the restrictions.
The Chairman: I should point out to members of the committee that the vote is about seven minutes away, so we really have to make a fast decision, or we have to come back here. Is there any further discussion on the regulations?
The motion in front of us is that the committee approve as amended - if that's what we do - the proposed tobacco regulations referred to the committee on March 21 and that the chair report to the House. Are you ready for the question?
[Translation]
Ms Pauline Picard: You want us to pass the regulations we have here?
[English]
The Chairman: As amended.
Motion agreed to
The Chairman: The regulations as amended are approved, and I shall so report to the House.
Thanks to everybody, especially the people from the department.
The meeting is adjourned.