EVIDENCE
[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]
Thursday, October 22, 1998
• 1540
[Translation]
The Acting Chairman (Mr. Denis Coderre (Bourassa, Lib)): Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. Today, I'm replacing our chairman Dennis Mills. We have a lot to do today. We apologize for the delay. We will go to our witnesses immediately.
We have with us today Ms. Janet Davies, Acting Director General, Strategies and Systems for Health Directorate at Health Canada, and Mr. Tim Weir, Acting Manager, Fitness and Active Living Unit.
Naturally, when you talk about sport, you're talking about health. Therefore, it's highly relevant to hear people from Health Canada. Welcome to our committee. You have the floor.
Ms. Janet Davies (Acting Director General, Strategies and Systems for Health Directorate, Health Canada): Thank you very much.
[English]
Thank you very much and thank you for having us here.
This afternoon I want to speak about physical activity and its importance for the health of Canadians. I made a statement available and assume you have access to it.
We know that physical inactivity is bad for our health. Despite all the public education efforts to date, the majority of Canadians are at serious risk due to physical inactivity. The latest data from the Canadian Fitness and Lifestyle Research Institute tell us that about 63% of Canadians are not active enough to achieve health benefits. This affects our children as well. Too many of them are not active enough for optimal growth and development. The health community is alarmed at the statistics.
Scientific research tells us that physical activity or lack of it is an important health determinant. Physical inactivity contributes to premature death, heart disease, obesity, high blood pressure, adult-onset diabetes, osteoporosis, stroke, depression, colon cancer, stress—the list goes on.
The cost of physical inactivity to our health care system runs into the millions of dollars a year. Results from a Conference Board study on the health care costs indicate that a 1% increase in physical activity could save as much as $10 million for heart disease, almost $900,000 for adult-onset diabetes, and easily $500,000 for various cancers.
If we care about the sustainability of our public health care system and know that Canadians are indeed worried about this, we need to become more physically active. So what's stopping us?
Canadians have told us the vast array of information available to them on fitness and physical activity is confusing. They've told us they find it difficult to incorporate physical activities into their day-to-day lives. They've also told us they don't know how much physical activity they need to do in order to ensure the health benefits from an active lifestyle.
• 1545
Yesterday Health Canada, along with over 45 other
national voluntary organizations, released the physical
activity guide. The guide shows us how to build
physical activity into our daily routine. It tries to
demonstrate how easy it is, whether at home, school,
work, play, or on the way to any of these places.
The guide points to simple activities people can add to their everyday routines, including taking the stairs instead of the elevator, riding a bike or walking short distances instead of taking the car, getting off the bus early and walking, parking the car farther away, and reducing inactivity for long periods, such as watching TV or playing on the computer. The guide points to simple changes that are within the grasp of most Canadians. Anyone can do it, young or old.
The guide recommends that Canadians start slowly and progress gradually toward accumulating 30 to 60 minutes of activity a day. The guide also recommends that Canadians build three kinds of physical activity into their lives: endurance activities like walking and biking that benefit the heart, lungs, and circulatory system; flexibility activities like bending and stretching to keep muscles relaxed and joints mobile; and strength activities like sit-ups and push-ups and using weights to strengthen muscles and improve posture.
We recognize that individual Canadians are ultimately responsible for their own levels of physical activity. However, governments, health care professionals, employers, educators, recreation organizations, city and town planners, and disease support groups all have important roles to play in helping Canadians become more active and creating healthier communities for all of us.
Federal, provincial, and territorial ministers responsible for fitness, recreation, and sport have set a target to reduce the number of physically inactive Canadians by 10% by 2003. Governments have agreed to work together to achieve this goal. As well, we are working with many national organizations.
For its part, the federal government has three roles in physical activity: research and the identification of best practices or standards, communications, and coordination.
In regard to the latter role, we work with the international as well as the domestic community. As a result of our efforts, the World Health Organization last year established an active living program. That program is modelled on Canada's approach. Last month the WHO invited ten nations, including the U.K., the U.S., Australia, the Netherlands, Finland, Japan, Chile, Mexico, and Canada, to sit together a couple of blocks from where we are today to develop an action plan for the international active living program. In addition, the United Nations has recognized the importance of physical well-being to the economic development of nations.
Our research agenda includes developing and tracking indicators of physical activity. It also involves further quantification of the links between physical activity and disease prevention, social and economic development, and environmental protection.
In carrying out its communications function, the federal government has worked with a number of partners. The list of endorsers for the physical activity guide I mentioned a minute ago gives a flavour for the breadth of the avenues being pursued to reach Canadians and change their behaviour. In addition, the federal government has a longstanding contract with ParticipACTION to produce public service announcements aimed at maintaining a general awareness of the importance of physical activity.
The federal government last year also strengthened its communications efforts targeting very young Canadians. We focused on the Community Action Program for Children as a vehicle for this work. CAPC is a federal-provincial initiative involving over 390 projects across the country. These projects bring together the zero- to six-year-old group, plus their parent or parents, in community-based activities, and these activities now include physical activity. We promote increased participation in physical activity among adolescent and preteen Canadians as a strategy for reducing health risk behaviours such as smoking and substance abuse.
Health Canada's budget for physical activity this year is $10 million.
I thank you for the opportunity of coming here to meet with you this afternoon.
The Acting Chairman (Mr. Denis Coderre): Thank you, Ms. Davies.
[Translation]
Does Mr. Weir also have statement to make?
[English]
That was clear enough?
Mr. Tim Weir (Acting Manager, Fitness, Active Living Unit, Strategies and Systems for Health Directorate, Department of Health): No, I have nothing to add to Janet's comments.
[Translation]
The Acting Chairman (Mr. Denis Coderre): Fine. Thank you. Before I give the floor to members of the committee, I'd like to ask you one question.
• 1550
As you are aware, since 1993, the Fitness and Active Living
component was separated from the sports component and integrated
into Health Canada. At the administrative level, there is now a
split between high-level sport in Canada and sports participation.
Right now, is there still a communications link between fitness and
active living and Sports Canada?
Ms. Janet Davies: Yes, Mr. Chairman, there are links; in fact there are many. We meet with them for many of our programs, including our activities with the provinces. Therefore, the staff of Sports Canada and of Fitness and Active Living at Health Canada do meet with their provincial counterparts.
The Acting Chairman (Mr. Denis Coderre): I now have a somewhat more difficult question. Do you believe that all these activities should be merged? Do you think it's a good thing that Sports Canada exists independently and that Fitness and Active Living comes under Health Canada? In order to be more effective and have less administration, would it be desirable to have a single Sports Canada agency that includes all of these activities?
Ms. Janet Davies: That's a very interesting question. Physical activity is closely linked to the health of Canadians and it would be difficult to separate the two issues.
The Acting Chairman (Mr. Denis Coderre): Fine. Lastly, would you be in favour of the creation of a department of sport, where the two activities we were discussing earlier, namely what is done under Sports Canada and what is done under Health Canada, would be merged?
Ms. Janet Davies: Of course, there is a historical precedent for this. I will repeat the answer I just gave you. Clearly, for us the physical activity functions are truly related to those of the Department of Health. Therefore, it would be rather difficult to separate the two issues.
The Acting Chairman (Mr. Denis Coderre): Thank you very much.
[English]
Mr. Proud.
Mr. George Proud (Hillsborough, Lib.): Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
Ms. Davies and Mr. Weir, I take great interest in your presentation because I believe this is one of the ways we can lower the cost of our health care system and make people much healthier. I am probably a poor one to be talking because I'm very active in physical activities. Another gentleman at this table and I do it every day.
In your presentation you said Canadians find it difficult to incorporate this into their daily activity. There's only one way you can do it, and that's to discipline yourself to do it, as I do and others do. We do it early in the morning for two hours, and it works—it can happen. I did it for most of my life, but 10 years ago I started seriously and I do it five days a week. So I think we have to somehow get that message out.
I'm really surprised at the statistics on people who are not involved in this. You can imagine what it was like 20 years ago, because there's an awful lot more people today involved in physical activity. So I am really amazed at the figures.
Are there examples of countries that have developed a public health strategy involving development of physical activity as a fundamental principle for improving the quality of life of their citizens? Are Sweden and Denmark at the top of that?
Ms. Janet Davies: I'm going to ask Tim Weir to speak to that, but I do salute you on your discipline. It is amazing that more people haven't followed your example.
Mr. Tim Weir: Without blowing our own horn excessively, Canada really is a model to other countries. Most of us have heard the story about the 60-year-old Swede and the 40-year-old Canadian. That never actually happened. It was made up by ParticipACTION to get Canadians' attention.
The Government of Canada has been at the forefront in developing this concept of active living we now promote, integrating physical activity into one's everyday life. This has really taken the imagination and attention of a lot of countries around the world. As Janet said in her opening comments, the World Health Organization has actually endorsed Canada's concept of active living and is now promoting it throughout the world. We've just hosted a meeting.
• 1555
But it's an excellent question, because it does allow
us to work with other countries to look at their
experiences—what's worked, what hasn't worked, and best
practices. Often it's better to find out what hasn't
worked than what has worked. So we are in the process
of developing a network where we would exchange success
stories and best practices with countries around the
world and share our successes with them.
Mr. George Proud: If we are one of the better countries, we certainly have a long way to go, if you look at the numbers in Canada who are not actively involved. It must be desperate when you look at worldwide figures.
Mr. Tim Weir: The Canadian numbers are quite reflective of the developed world. It's an alarming number, and it's something we've only just started to quantify and do research on.
Mr. George Proud: Thank you.
The Acting Chairman (Mr. Denis Coderre): Merci, Monsieur Proud.
Monsieur O'Brien.
Mr. Pat O'Brien (London—Fanshawe, Lib.): Thank you, Mr. Chair. I guess I might as well make a confession that I'm a formerly very fit person who's gotten away from it. So if there are compliments for Mr. Proud, there will be scolding for some of us around this place. But I have high hopes of returning to my former fit days.
I have some serious questions, as somebody who's done quite a bit of work in this field in education and has some thoughts on it. First of all, I wonder what your view is—either or both of you—on returning to the time when we had at least a secretary of state of fitness and amateur sport. Do you think there's any practical benefit to having that role separate from the Minister of Health?
Ms. Janet Davies: When the secretary of state existed it was at the beginning of the creation of fitness activity at the federal level, and a lot of positives came from that era. I would be remiss in not signalling, though, the concern we would have in separating physical activity from the health file. There is such a strong connection between the physical activity work we do and many of the other health promotion activities we also have under way. I'm not sure it would be the best way of seeing things organized.
Mr. Pat O'Brien: Names are important, and I wonder, just following on your answer, whether it would be better to call the Minister of Health, the Minister of Health and Fitness, or something? The title “Minister of Health” just doesn't do it. At a political level, that label doesn't sell the message you're trying to sell.
Too many Canadians still have the passive view of health of just not being sick, rather than the proactive view of promoting good health. I guess I'm a bit surprised by your answer, but I don't think it's the best solution at a political level to just leave it the way it is. There are some other thoughts on that.
I was a little surprised to hear you say Canadians find confusing what they need to do to promote health. I thought with Dr. Ken Cooper and the whole explosion of information on aerobics a number of years ago, quite simple information was laid out for people that a minimum of 12 or 15 minutes of aerobic activity a day will promote cardiovascular fitness. It's pretty easy to define aerobic activity and anaerobic activity for people. They're very easy terms to explain. You don't even have to use the terms “aerobic” and “anaerobic”.
Why is it confusing? It's very simple to explain to somebody that if you walk continuously for 12 to 15 minutes a day you're promoting your cardiovascular health. That's a pretty easy concept, isn't it?
Mr. Tim Weir: Yes, it's very easy and attractive to the approximately one-third of Canadians who took up the challenge 20 years ago when we were promoting cardiovascular high-intensity fitness. Approximately two-thirds of the country either was not interested, couldn't find the time, or didn't feel they had the money for the $200 spandex outfit or the gym fees to participate. It became almost a light-switch decision for them: “If I can't go all the way in aerobics, I'm not going to do anything.”
• 1600
Our research in the last ten years has shown us that
even less intense physical activity, moderate physical
activity, and activity that's worked into your
lifestyle even in periods of 10 or 15 minutes is also very
beneficial to your health.
This is where the confusion is starting to come in. Canadians are saying, wait a minute, ten years ago you were saying I had to do it for half an hour a day, but now you're saying it's ten minutes. You said I had to get my heart rate up, but now I can go for a stroll. What's going on here?
I think Janet was referring to how the guide we released yesterday tries to bring some continuity to those potentially conflicting messages.
Mr. Pat O'Brien: Okay. I've got others, but I'll pass for now, Mr. Chairman. Thank you.
The Acting Chairman (Mr. Denis Coderre): Mr. Mark.
Mr. Inky Mark (Dauphin—Swan River, Ref.): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I apologize for coming here late.
I've been involved with health and communities at the municipal level for many years. I know that one of the problems has always been the coordination of the whole health movement at the three levels. I'd like you to make some comments on how we resolve those coordination problems. Who should take the lead and who should do the funding? Money always becomes the topic for discussion at all three levels.
Ms. Janet Davies: It's a good question. It's one we toil with. Certainly coordination is a role that, as I say, the federal government has in the area of physical activity, as in other areas of health issues. We do work with our provincial colleagues. We do work also with a number of voluntary organizations that work at the municipal level. So coordination is done by virtue of the work we do at the national level, and it plays out at regional and local levels through various agencies.
Certainly the work the federal government is involved in is, in large part, toward framing or developing the practices, policies, or standards that can be delivered by other agencies at the local level. So in that regard, the tools are there. Sometimes the discipline comes in terms of coordination outside the work that would normally be done by the federal government. So at the municipal level, there is an obligation for folks to get together as well.
Mr. Inky Mark: I know very well how this whole thing works at the grassroots level, but every time we discuss issues about healthy communities and how to create them, it always comes back to money. So the provinces are always saying they don't have the money from the federal government. Again, we kind of go around in circles, always in the same discussion.
What is your point of view in terms of the funding plan or strategy that should be in place? Is there a place for some kind of a fund out of Health Canada? As Mr. O'Brien indicated, perhaps we need a separate organization to deal with this whole health thing, outside of hospital health.
Mr. Tim Weir: We have felt that physical activity and promoting health is appropriate to be acted upon by all three levels of government. What's important for us to ensure is that we're not duplicating each other's efforts. I think this is what Janet was referring to when she talked about coordination. If we can do some across-the-board research at the national level that shows what works and what doesn't, and then hand that information off to provinces, who in turn may hand it to the local level, then I think we've provided tools. But at the end of the day, the delivery of programs is going to take place at the municipal level. I guess all we can do is ensure we're not wasting money by duplicating something that's happening in another area.
Mr. Inky Mark: Thank you.
[Translation]
The Acting Chairman (Mr. Denis Coderre): Before I give the floor to Mr. Clouthier, I'd like to know what is the envelope of your department in millions of dollars. Furthermore, how much do you invest for promotion and marketing? How much money does this represent?
Ms. Janet Davies: Our envelope for physical activities is $10 million this year. As far as the breakdown between the different activities is concerned, I don't have that here. Perhaps I could send you a document about that.
• 1605
The Acting Chairman (Mr. Denis Coderre): Mr. Clouthier.
Mr. Hec Clouthier (Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, Lib.): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Ms. Davies and Mr. Weir, the chairman is undoubtedly a very, very good speaker, but he's not in good physical condition. That's a problem for me because he's the goalie of our parliamentary hockey team. He's too fat.
[English]
But rest assured that we're going to get him in top-notch condition, because, Mr. Weir, as you clearly indicated a few minutes ago, it was purely a myth that a 60-year-old Swede was in better shape
[Translation]
than Canadians 40 years ago.
[English]
We have Mr. Proud here. I can verify that he's in a gymnasium every morning. He's 82, but he really looks only 62.
Voices: Hear, hear!
Mr. Hec Clouthier: He's in great shape.
I rest my case about a person like Mr. Proud. He does it on his own. Here's what I believe we should do. Correct me if I'm wrong. Remember that we had those ParticipACTION videos? I still remember the former Governor General, Roland Michener, kicking the ball and walking a block a day instead of spending millions and millions and millions of dollars. We, on this side, have to be fiscally responsible, and the money is a little tight.
What if we once again reinvested some money into advertising and got perhaps star athletes or someone else to encourage the Canadian people to be more fit? It was clearly evinced from your remarks that if you have good fitness—sometimes I worry about Mr. Proud—you're supposed to have a clear mind. A healthy body makes a healthy mind, so to speak.
I do agree with you that if you're in better physical condition, it certainly is going to cut down the cost in all related areas in your future life. So what suggestions would you have to get that message across? It is difficult.
Ms. Janet Davies: If I could speak to this, Mr. Chair, certainly, advertising is one of the component pieces of the communication work we are doing. We have worked since 1971 with ParticipACTION and will continue to do that.
In addition to that, though, we're working with a number of other organizations and seeking avenues to reach people, not necessarily through the media. We're working with employers' groups, for example.
One of the agencies we were with yesterday was the Industrial Accident Prevention Association, which works with employers to make sure they are providing employees with the opportunity to be physically fit so that we can reduce the number of industrial accidents, for example.
We're also going after kids in the schools. We're working with teachers organizations. We're working with health professionals. The College of Family Physicians of Canada is distributing our guide and its handbook to all its members next month. So in every doctor's office across the country, physicians and their staff will be ready to counsel Canadians of all ages on the benefits of physical activity.
Those are examples of the agencies that are working with us. You're going to hear in a few minutes from CAHPERD, which is also one of the distributors of the message and finds other vehicles to get the message out.
We think advertising is important. It's one vehicle, but it's not the only vehicle. Certainly some of the community work that is done, which was spoken about earlier, is also a vehicle to get information out to folks about the importance of physical activity.
Mr. Hec Clouthier: Janet, I have one final comment. I guess this is a response in regard to whether you believe we should have a minister of amateur sport. Personally, I believe the government should have this. It wouldn't take any more of a reinvestment of dollars. I would say that we could pull away funding from some of the other ministries. I guess what I'm getting at is this. What better way is there to make the Canadian public aware of the concerns of health? It really wouldn't cost us any more money.
I could get myself in trouble for promoting another ministry, but even for that minister, I don't believe it would cost us any more money to allocate the funds. Then you would have a spokesperson, man or a woman, as that particular minister to say that they were actually the minister of fitness and sports.
Once again, I go to the president. He's a great talker, but we have to get him in better shape before he'd take on that job.
Something like that would send an important signal, I believe, to the Canadian public that we are placing some importance on it.
Ms. Janet Davies: I know that within the ministry of health we certainly feel we are the spokespeople for physical activity, along with other things. So I hope that isn't lost. Certainly, the more spokespeople we have, ministerial or otherwise, the better off we are in this particular situation.
• 1610
[Translation]
The Acting Chairman (Mr. Denis Coderre): Thank you very much. I think that my friend Clouthier has got it a little mixed up. Pat O'Brien and I wanted to start a sumo wrestling league, but it didn't work.
[English]
We cover all the corners, but that's it.
Mr. MacKay.
Mr. Peter MacKay (Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, PC): Thank you—
[Translation]
Mr. Gilles-A. Perron (Rivière-des-Milles-Îles, BQ): You forgot me, Mr. Chairman.
The Acting Chairman (Mr. Denis Coderre): Mr. MacKay had asked to speak. You are next.
Mr. Gilles Perron: Excuse me.
[English]
Mr. Peter MacKay: I will defer to my colleague if he wishes to go ahead.
Mr. Gilles Perron: Oh, come on. I'll give you a break.
The Acting Chairman (Mr. Denis Coderre): Okay, Peter.
Mr. Peter MacKay: Thank you, Mr. Chair. I apologize for being late as well. I was getting my flu shot and I ran here, so I did my bit for health today.
I was very encouraged to hear the remarks of my colleague across the way. He modestly didn't state the fact that he's in very good shape himself. In fact, he does a lot of ice skating and running. He's so fast that he blew all his hair off when he was running.
Voices: Hear, hear!
Mr. Hec Clouthier: I'm streamlined.
Mr. Peter MacKay: I apologize for missing your earlier remarks. I hope you haven't already dealt with this issue.
In the materials you supplied, I noted that there is—I firmly believe this myself—a correlation between a healthy body and a healthy mind. But taking it further psychologically, I think that amateur sports and sporting programs for youths and communities impact significantly on the amount of youth crime and juvenile delinquency.
Just harking back to my own experience, there were always, it seemed, two routes you could go while growing up in rural Canada. You either wound up hanging out on the streets or you wound up playing organized sports, such as hockey, baseball, or some other organized activity.
I wonder just what efforts have been made to either correlate through the Department of Justice or through juvenile holding facilities...to encourage youth at risk at an early stage to move them in this direction. What more can we do, as legislators and parliamentarians, to encourage this process to continue, presuming it's in place, or to expand into this area in a more fruitful way?
Mr. Tim Weir: I couldn't agree more. We've recognized the correlation for some time now. I think that, anecdotally, people for generations have known there's a correlation. More recently, we've invested in actual research in the last 10 years into the cause and effect between introducing physical activity and sport programs to the communities and their impact on the risk factors that face young people and their behaviour. About five years ago, through a national organization we're partnered with, the Canadian Parks/Recreation Association, we carried out a number of pilot projects to try to track the impact of these initiatives. We documented them and presented them to the committee.
More recently, our ministers directed us to take a look at the positive impact that physical activity and sport programs can have in creating resiliency among youth living in poverty, which has become an extremely crucial target for us.
The main avenue we're following to address this is to make official contact with the two chairs of the National Children's Agenda. We've offered them our network. We've explained to them how we're organized on the fitness, active living, and recreation side. We told them what relationships we have with the sport side. They know the research we've done. We offered to join them at the table of the National Children's Agenda and bring this to their deliberations.
We're enthused by their early interest. I guess that process hasn't quite moved along as quickly as hoped, but we are in a position to begin dialogue with them.
We are hosting, or at least organizing, a national round table. That's what we call it. It's a national gathering of front-line workers and policy-makers in Toronto in November who will look at this issue. We'll be inviting people from law enforcement, youth agencies, etc.
• 1615
So yes, we agree, and it is one of the highest priority
groups.
I'd like to go back and possibly expand, using this as an example, on the existing relationship we have with sport at the provincial and territorial levels. There still occurs, about every two years, every time the Canada Games come around, a federal-provincial-territorial conference of ministers responsible for sport, recreation, and fitness. These have been going on for a number of years. While it's true that a decade ago one federal minister would attend and speak to both issues, at the last two ministers' conferences the two departments involved, Health and Heritage, were represented by their ministers.
The next ministers' conference is going to take place in February 1999 in Newfoundland. By way of an example, we'll be doing an overview presentation to the ministers at that time. The four content issues that we'll be addressing will be health, national unity, equity, and youth development. We'll be bringing a combined message of sport, fitness, active living, and recreation, and we'll be putting those in context in terms of large policy issues like health and national unity, but also specific issues like youth. So they're very important to the work we do, day in and day out.
Mr. Peter MacKay: To pick up again on Mr. Clouthier's point, would having a federal minister designated, and then taking that message further and participating with the provinces...? I'm not sure when your conference in Newfoundland is, but you're probably aware that the Canada Winter Games are going to be held in Corner Brook.
Mr. Tim Weir: That's precisely when. They arranged to have those conferences at the same time as the Canada Games, because ministers are there anyway.
Mr. Peter MacKay: That's terrific.
On the suggestion that there be another attempt at having a federal ministry specifically aimed at sport and fitness, in your opinion, would that bolster the attention, and further to that, give greater funding in the long term?
It seems—and again this was mentioned by Mr. Mark—it does inevitably come back to money. We've seen that. We've had representatives of the Canadian Olympic Association testify before this committee. We've heard from amateur sport. We've heard from all sorts of representatives in the sporting community. Time and time again, it seems to come back to the issue of dollars and the increased cost of equipment and ice time and facilities, and it's becoming prohibitive. In certain sports, mainly hockey, it has become very prohibitive, and that has decreased participation.
Highlighting that, with a designated minister and a separate department, do you feel this would be a positive initiative or something that we should consider at this committee?
Ms. Janet Davies: At the risk of repeating myself, I'd be concerned about separating physical activity from the health agenda. It is such a key part of what we do, both as a solution and as an issue vis-à-vis the health of Canadians.
I'm not sure having two federal ministers at a federal-provincial meeting is such a bad thing.
Mr. Peter MacKay: Okay.
[Translation]
The Acting Chairman (Mr. Denis Coderre): Thank you very much, Mr. MacKay.
Mr. Perron.
Mr. Gilles Perron: You can tell Mr. Clouthier that, for once, I agree with him, on the subject of your waistline.
The Acting Chairman (Mr. Denis Coderre): Has anybody talked to you about your smoking problem?
Mr. Gilles Perron: My smoking problem?
The Acting Chairman (Mr. Denis Coderre): You stop smoking and I'll lose weight.
Mr. Gilles Perron: That's fine, no problem. But let's get serious. I think that Pat and George on the other side would agree with me when I say that when we were young, sports were our favourite pastime.
Today, in 1998, young people spend their time playing sports with their thumbs, with Nintendo, computers, the Internet, etc. It is hard to get them out of the basement to play soccer, baseball or hockey. How can we get there? We have to create a sports habit. They do not necessarily have to play hockey, but they have to participate in sports and fitness activities.
• 1620
Norway is a fine example of this, where we see toddlers of
three and four years old going cross-country skiing with mom and
dad. Maybe they have heroes, as we, at the time, had our Maurice
Richards and Gordie Howes. Today, in 1998, those heroes no longer
seem to exist, but there are others. The olympic cross-country ski
champions do not come from Norway, Finland or Sweden, which are
northern countries. We are a northern country.
What are we to do? We seem to be on a path of no return. Are we going to leave our young people in the basement with their Nintendo, or are we going to educate them and encourage them to change their sedentary habits? I would like to know what your solution is. As for me, I think it is very difficult, that it is a very hard row to hoe.
[English]
Mr. Tim Weir: It is. It's extremely difficult.
Our program has been in operation for about 25 or 30 years. In the period between 1981 and 1995, we managed to increase the physical activity levels of Canadians by about 15%. Since 1995, we've stalled. We don't seem to be advancing at the rate we were, and we've set targets to try to reorganize our programs to make them more attractive to Canadians.
Having said that, we have recently seen a very preliminary study from the World Health Organization dealing with the youth of the world, not just Canada and not just the Scandinavian countries, and it would appear that the phenomenon you've just described is endemic worldwide. The physical activity levels of youth are not standing still; they actually appear to be on a decline. We're awaiting the final version of that report to respond to it.
What you're describing is a very serious problem. All we can try to do, in working with youth, serving agencies, and working with other policy areas such as the National Children's Agenda, is make these opportunities available and attractive to young people, because as I say, the phenomenon you're describing is worldwide, and it's going to have a tremendous impact on our health system as these children age.
[Translation]
Mr. Gilles Perron: Another factor that we should perhaps deal with as politicians—this is always something I ask us to keep in mind—is the percentage of young people who are unable to participate in certain activities today, because they are poor. Denis, I don't know if you have young children. Having a child in a hockey league costs a fortune. If there are two, it is impossible. If you have a figure skater, a diver and a swimmer, it's impossible. How much does it cost to go skiing? It costs $100 per day for a family of four children, if not more. How much does it cost to play golf? How much does it cost to go curling? I think that the cost of life is directly proportional...
I think that parents prefer to buy a baloney sandwich rather than a pair of skates. Are you not concerned about this?
Ms. Janet Davies: Certainly, we are concerned about poverty. However, the choice of activity is not necessarily dictated by money. There are community centres that have soccer balls or footballs. Children can participate regardless of their socioeconomic level. Some community centres also subsidize the cost of skates and ice time. This is funded by the community or the municipality, according to the individual's or child's ability to pay.
• 1625
There are programs that recognize that lack of money creates
barriers, and we are also aware of this. We are working closely
with our provincial counterparts to see how we could respond to the
problems of poverty and participation in physical activities.
Mr. Gilles Perron: In Quebec, the largest sports federation is the soccer federation. Studies have shown that the main reason for this is that soccer is the least expensive group sport. It takes a ball, and that's about it. Both girls and boys can play.
This would suggest that poverty has a direct impact on young people's participation. This is how I read the situation. This is only a comment.
Ms. Janet Davies: I fully agree.
The Acting Chairman (Mr. Denis Coderre): Thank you, Mr. Perron.
Mr. Proud, for a second turn.
[English]
Mr. George Proud: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I have just a couple of short questions. Further to what Mr. Perron was saying about the cost of activity for young people, have you ever had any requests for a tax deduction for fees, be it to join a minor hockey league or a minor baseball league or for fitness club dues? Have there ever been any requests from the organizations to you people to have this become a reality to propose to government? If not, what do you think of the idea? It would be a health-related thing. If you become involved in a fitness club or young people become involved in sports, it's going to have some effect on keeping them healthy.
Mr. Perron mentioned young people getting involved in sports. Are there statistics that show people who were involved in sports when they were young continue to be involved in sports or physical activities as they grow older? Those are my two questions.
Ms. Janet Davies: I'm going to answer the first question, and I'll get Tim to think about and answer the second one.
It's an interesting idea. To my knowledge, we have not received any application to consider the possibility of a tax write-off for participation in physical activity. We wouldn't necessarily know about those applications because they may have gone to colleagues at Revenue Canada. But as far as Tim's memory or my own is concerned, we don't recall having talked to our colleagues there either about anything like that.
Mr. George Proud: It's something people who are in the business have approached me about. We talk about health care and the costs of health care. That, I believe, would be something that should be looked at seriously, and it's something I'm going to pursue further in other areas.
Ms. Janet Davies: I encourage you to do so.
Following on the conversation we just had related to income and the correlation with participation in physical activity, there are a number of employers, of course, who subsidize fully or partially their employees' participation in physical activity or who provide facilities on site for employees to enable them to pursue physical activity and fitness classes. Certainly, having that available more broadly would be something we would be very supportive of.
Mr. George Proud: Thank you.
Mr. Tim Weir: I have just one brief comment. I've been around this program for quite a while. I do recall the suggestion being raised, I think, in the late 1970s or early 1980s. One of the arguments on the other side of it was facilities weren't available in all towns in Canada, and it might be an unfair tax advantage to those who have the money in the first place to get their kids into hockey or to those who live in urban centres where there are a lot of facilities, as opposed to small prairie towns. But I haven't heard an active discussion about that in quite some time.
• 1630
In terms of research into whether we can prove
children who live active childhoods go on to maintain
those practices, as I say, anecdotally we tend to
believe this is the case. You know people who
were very active as young people, and they're still
active. They tend to continue to value it.
But in terms of quantifying it, we have done a number of longitudinal surveys. This would require actually tracking the same people over decades. We are looking at research of this nature. It's extremely costly, and we would have to be very careful we could make the case for it and we would have solid results at the end. We are looking at it, as I say. But you can imagine, if you're going to start tracking people for 20 years, it's a fairly major undertaking.
Mr. George Proud: But if it proves to be positive, it would be a very good thing to have.
Mr. Tim Weir: It would; it would be invaluable.
Mr. George Proud: Thank you.
[Translation]
The Acting Chairman (Mr. Denis Coderre): Since we started at 3:45 p.m. we will stop at 4:45 p.m. if you agree, and we will then hear the other witnesses. I already have a list of speakers: Mr. O'Brien, Mr. Drouin, Mr. Mark and Mr. Perron.
[English]
Mr. MacKay, do you have a last question, or are you okay? Will you have one eventually?
Mr. Peter MacKay: Yes, please.
The Acting Chairman (Mr. Denis Coderre): Mr. O'Brien.
Mr. Pat O'Brien: Mr. Chairman, thank you.
I have just two questions. I'm wondering if there has been any consideration given to targeting a message vis-à-vis fitness. You see Hal and whatever the lady's name is there on TV and they're effective, but I'm not sure there couldn't be some more effective targeting of the fitness message.
Let's just name a few busy people who are around here or who were around here, such as Health Minister Rock and the Prime Minister. I wonder how many people know the Prime Minister swims quite regularly and is quite fit for a man his age. There's also a man like Gilles Duceppe who you see in the gym fairly often, along with Jean Charest when he was here. My point is they're busy people—take partisan politics out of it—yet they can find time in their schedules to exercise. So you could take somebody like that or some other high-powered executive who is fit, male or female, both preferably, and target that message to people like that, rather than having just one approach to targeting fitness. Have there been any attempts made to target advertising?
Ms. Janet Davies: Absolutely. I think we need both star role models, if you will, and everyday people.
In the guide we released yesterday we have a companion handbook that provides a portrait of a number of everyday, regular people, including Lise, Pierre, and a few others, who are ordinary people who have had to find time to include physical activity in their lives. So I think we need the role model and the everyday role model. We need to be age sensitive, too. Kids are not excited about older people having done something. They're looking as well for the kid who has done something.
Mr. Pat O'Brien: That's what I mean by targeting, age-specific, and so on. Thank you.
I just think it's a shame more people don't know Allan Rock has been or is a marathon runner, the Prime Minister is a dedicated swimmer, and Mr. Duceppe is in the gym a lot, as was Mr. Charest, and so on, from a political point of view.
I know what Mr. Perron is saying, and yet having played and coached lots of hockey, if we're talking purely fitness, those are not the best sports to promote anyway. They're positive, but you can give a kid a decent shoe and a track suit, which doesn't have to be a $200 spandex suit, and you can get him or her quite fit for a reasonable price. I want to hear your opinion on this. Isn't the best place to do that in the schools of our nation? If we mandated it, isn't that the most efficient way to get the best return on our dollar for fitness for people under the age of 20, say?
Ms. Janet Davies: I think it's certainly an opportunity. You don't have to wait until they get to school either. One of the cheapest ways of having kids be active is having them walk to school in the first place, rather than being driven or taking a bus, where it's feasible, obviously, and that's certainly something we're promoting as well.
• 1635
But schools are a good venue. We would like very much
to see physical activity as a daily component of school
life. I'm not sure it's the way provincial
ministries of education are incorporating physical
activity into their agenda.
Mr. Pat O'Brien: I know it's not, because I was in teaching in Ontario for 22 years and this song has been sung for at least the last 25 years, and probably 25 before that. There's no more enlightened view on the need for daily physical education now than there ever was, unfortunately.
[Translation]
The Acting Chairman (Mr. Denis Coderre): Thank you, Mr. O'Brien. Quickly, Mr. Weir.
[English]
Mr. Tim Weir: On your first point about consistent messaging, one of the activities we are currently undertaking with our provincial colleagues—and there is a structure in place where we actually develop common policy, joint policy—is to put in place a communications framework where we're all singing from the same page, where we could agree on a message for a quarter of the year and we would all be promoting the same message. That would include our partners such as ParticipACTION, and each province and territory.
So, yes, we are actively pursuing that very idea.
Mr. Pat O'Brien: Thank you.
[Translation]
The Acting Chairman (Mr. Denis Coderre): Mr. Drouin.
Mr. Claude Drouin (Beauce, Lib.): I have a short comment to make, Mr. Chairman. Could the Minister of Health not consider a promotional activity in schools so that young people who participate, not the best but all those who participate, could receive some sort of reward, for example, sneakers or a sports outfit; something that would give them greater motivation? Is this something feasible or is it not a good idea? I would like to have your opinion on this. You could dip into your $10-million budget for money to encourage youth to participate.
M. Tim Weir: I agree with the principle. However, it would be rather difficult to apply this principle through the federal Department of Health. Your next witnesses, who represent the school system, might be in a better position to respond to your suggestion.
Mr. Claude Drouin: Thank you.
[English]
The Acting Chairman (Mr. Denis Coderre): Mr. Mark, do you have a question?
Mr. Inky Mark: Like Mr. O'Brien, I'm a professional teacher and all my life I've been in schools. I'd like to follow the same line of questioning. We've talked about this for years and years and years. We know that schools are going to probably at least create the opportunity for healthy individuals who grow up to be healthy adults. With cutbacks in education, obviously they're cutting back physical education classes. They're usually the first thing to go.
In the whole public school system in terms of physical fitness education, what role can your association play to resolve this age-old problem? We always talk about this age-old problem.
Mr. Tim Weir: The association is twofold. As we've said, we do deal with national organizations, which in turn are active in promoting physical activity within a school context. So while it's indirect, it's still aimed and targeted. Because education is a provincial responsibility, we also do discuss this with out colleagues in the provinces. They in turn have to convince their minister to go to the provincial minister of education. We don't have direct access to that decision-making or policy-setting, but certainly we're speaking with those people. We're providing the evidence from the research we've done. We're trying to build a case, but we can only take it so far.
Mr. Inky Mark: They always come back and want more money, because it's all about money. They're asking the federal government to fund education so the kids can get physical education, which would create a better climate for fitness. It's a cyclical problem. We go nowhere. Everyone wants to talk and come up with ideas, but no one delivers.
What is your organization doing in terms of how you can help deliver the goods? I guess this is the correct way of putting it.
Ms. Janet Davies: I think we will continue to push in the venues Tim spoke of. I know your next witness is going to talk about what they've been doing as well, and there are certainly other organizations that deal in the school forum. I think some of the information we've seen in the media recently about the couch potato phenomenon, about the use of video games rather than being active, about the implications this kind of inactivity will have for our health system, is going to click at some point. I can't predict when, but we will continue to push this. It's not a road that we travel down every day.
• 1640
Mr. Inky Mark: Thank you.
[Translation]
The Acting Chairman (Mr. Denis Coderre): Thank you, Mr. Mark.
Mr. Perron.
Mr. Gilles Perron: I wish to make a comment, Mr. Chairman.
Spending money on sports and physical fitness is not an expense, but an investment. If I reduce health spending, at $75 billion, by 1%, I am saving $750 million. As I was saying, it is not an expense but an investment. If I keep my son busy playing soccer or football, he's not on the street taking drugs, smashing windows, etc. It is an investment. As Canadians, we should invest in leisure and sports instead of considering that as an expense. That is my opinion.
I would like to make another comment. The brochure that you showed us a while ago is beautiful, and I would like to have a copy. I would like to issue a challenge to all the members who are around the table as well as to our 301 colleagues who are over there in the House. I would ask them to commit to distributing 100 in each of their riding. I am willing to personally pay what it will cost to distribute at least 100. This will tell you, Ms. Davies, that I am heart and soul into sports.
Ms. Janet Davies: Thank you very much.
Mr. Gilles Perron: Here's the challenge. Fifty, one hundred?
The Acting Chairman (Mr. Denis Coderre): In my opinion, a hundred is a bit much.
Mr. Gilles Perron: The challenge has been issued.
An Hon. Member: Challenge accepted!
[English]
Mr. Peter MacKay: I like the challenge. I'd be pleased to take up that challenge.
Mr. Tim Weir: Can I just comment that a senator and member of Parliament distribution was to have occurred yesterday, so each of you should have a copy of the full package in your office. It should have been delivered yesterday.
Mr. Peter MacKay: How do we get more? Is it going to cost me more?
Mr. Tim Weir: There's a 1-800 number that you can call and have it sent to you. There's a web site. We have four million of these things just waiting to get delivered.
Mr. Peter Mackay: Four million?
Mr. Gilles Perron: It's going to be free.
[Translation]
The Acting Chairman (Mr. Denis Coderre): Mr. Weir, I think that you should ask your communications unit to send a copy to all members of Parliament.
Mr. Tim Weir: Absolutely.
The Acting Chairman (Mr. Denis Coderre): You might also suggest that we distribute it to our constituents. I think that would be very effective.
Mr. Tim Weir: Absolutely.
[English]
The Acting Chairman (Mr. Denis Coderre): Mr. MacKay.
Mr. Peter Mackay: Thank you for your brief, and I want to thank you on behalf of the committee. I'm sure you'll be thanked at the end of your presentation.
In following up on some earlier lines of questioning, I have a question about incentives. Sadly, with some of the economic constraints people are living under now, they're finding less and less time to volunteer their time, and coaches throughout Canada seem to be feeling this pinch like everyone else.
I'm wondering, and I'd be interested in your feedback on this, if it has been contemplated to give some form of an incentive. We've seen it with volunteer firemen, for example, who are given a tax break. If there was documented volunteer time in a recognized youth activity, could that result, or do you think that might result, in a tax reduction of some sort, say $500, and would you see this as a positive initiative if the government were to consider this?
Ms. Janet Davies: It's an interesting idea. Again, like the idea we heard earlier, it's not one that's been brought to our department. Volunteerism is something the government is looking at, and it's certainly something that would be picked up in a bigger study. It's not focusing just on coaching but on volunteerism generally. We can certainly bring it to the attention of the folks who are participating in that study and suggest they take a look at it.
• 1645
Mr. Peter MacKay: I have one final question. Is there empirical evidence available now that shows a correlation between the availability of facilities or sports infrastructure in communities, whether they be ballparks, tracks, basketball courts, or rinks, and the general fitness of that community? I know it would be a difficult thing to put into statistics, but have there been studies done along those lines?
Ms. Janet Davies: I'm not sure about facilities in general. One of the things we do know is that if there are walking trails that are well lit and available, or bike paths that are available and secure, more people will either use the trails or bicycle paths in urban environments as an option instead of using vehicular transportation. We know, too, that more seniors will remain active and participate in their communities if they have access to roadbeds or trails that are well lit and accessible to them. I'm not sure that we've done a study on ballparks and whatever.
Tim knows better.
Mr. Tim Weir: Janet and I did a personal evaluation of this question. We went to Atlanta, Georgia, last February to visit colleagues at the Centers for Disease Control to discuss our respective programs, and we decided to go out for a little walk between meetings. I don't know if you've ever been to Atlanta, Georgia, but you simply cannot walk in that town. There are nothing but eight-lane freeways and cars going by at a thousand miles an hour. It made us realize very quickly how lucky we are to live in a city like Ottawa, where you can simply, literally, go outside and be on a walking path. That is much of a motivation to just get people moving.
Mr. Peter MacKay: So the motto for infrastructure is “If you build it, they will come”.
Mr. Janet Davies: If you build it right, they'll come.
Mr. Peter MacKay: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
The Acting Chairman (Mr. Denis Coderre): You want a field of dreams.
Mr. Peter MacKay: That's right.
[Translation]
The Acting Chairman (Mr. Denis Coderre): Ms. Davies, Mr. Weir, I heartily thank you for having appeared. Although some of us are a bit overweight, we do take physical fitness very seriously, and that includes people who smoke too much. We really appreciate this. Be assured that your testimony will be taken into account in our recommendations. Thank you.
We shall return once the other witnesses are seated.
• 1647
• 1649
The Acting Chairman (Mr. Denis Coderre): Order.
I think that Mr. Perron is trying to prove what good condition he's in.
Thank you for being here, ladies and gentlemen. We wish to close around 5:30 or 5:45 p.m.. We now have the pleasure of receiving the Canadian Association for Health, Physical Education, Recreation and Dance, represented by Ms. Sue Cousineau, Executive Director, and Daniel Parthenais, Special Programs Director. I think this ties in well with what we were discussing before.
Ms. Cousineau, Mr. Parthenais, you have the floor.
[English]
Ms. Sue Cousineau (Executive Director, Canadian Association for Health, Physical Education, Recreation and Dance): Thank you very much.
• 1650
We have passed out copies of some of the things we
are going to talk about. I hope you also have the
report that our organization presented to you during
the summer and that you have had an opportunity to
read it.
One of the things I was actually going to begin this presentation with was the fact that, during the summer, I cut an article out of the Ottawa Citizen that dealt with the subcommittee and its apparent attention towards professional sport, towards protecting or somehow supporting the keeping of professional sport in Canada. I thought to myself that when I had an opportunity to present to you, I would try to make my case that although that may be important in Canada, from our perspective it's the other end of the continuum that we would like to make a strong case before you: it's the entry level; it's getting the kids active.
I was very pleased to hear some of the questions you asked of the speakers before us—we work with them closely—and your concern and interest. In that sense, I'm not going to take a lot of time going through our report. It's written there and I don't want to duplicate it. However, as I said, our presentation is really taking a look at the entry level; at getting the kids healthy and active first; at providing a foundation of physical activity for them; at providing them with understanding and knowledge; and at providing them with the actual opportunity to be active and to learn those skills. Those things should last them a lifetime, and they will provide the opportunity for children to filter through the many systems we have in Canada so that they can become athletes if they so choose.
However, there are a number of particular issues in terms of the situation that exists in Canada, so I will not talk about the benefits of physical education in school sport. We all know them—physical, emotional, social, cognitive. We know that an active kid is a healthy kid is a kid who can learn better. However, there are issues in physical education and in sport education within the school system that are pretty critical.
We feel one of those is that there is a bit of an ethical mess. We have used terms that may be there to spark your interest, but we certainly know there is a dichotomy. We're starting to see some of the behaviours in professional sport reflected down into schools. Where else do kids get their role models? It's from the athletes who perform well but behave poorly, and children follow their models. We know, though, that if physical education in school sport is provided within quality environments, children learn the ethics of fair play and the inclusion of all kids, whether they are skilled or unskilled, disabled or able, male or female. They also learn that the rules and regulations involved in sport will last them a lifetime.
We also know that school offers the only avenue in Canada, as we know it, where every child is going to be exposed to physical activities. That's where the fundamental skills are learned. You may be fortunate to grow up in a family that has parents who are active. But for those children living in poverty, for those children coming from different ethnic backgrounds, and for those children whose parents do not see the value of active living, they are not exposed at a young age.
We all know that before they enter school there is a definite difference between children's skills acquisition and activity patterns before they even reach the age of 6. That, by the way, is very evident amongst young girls. When they say that someone throws like a girl, it means the person does not have the throwing skills. In growth and development terms, there should be no difference. There's no physiological difference for children at that age. They just have not been exposed to it.
In a school sports program, we'd like to think that sport is part of a quality physical education program. That's the foundation on which our organization works. We are a national organization of health and physical education teachers. We're the ones who teach it within the school system. However, you are right that the school system is not offering physical education as often as we'd like to see it offered, and people who are not qualified to teach it are teaching physical education. We may therefore get six weeks of murderball instead of a balanced program.
• 1655
For us, a balanced program means fitness, sport,
outdoor recreation or outdoor pursuits, daily living,
and dance. To us, that is a broad spectrum of physical
education. That's where we feel the children need to
learn those broad activities so that they can develop
the skills and the behaviour. They can then move on to
be regular participants.
The other issue is that we feel a lot of people participate in sport and physical activity for a number of reasons. Few go on to be athletes. In their own terms, though, everyone is their own athlete. We like to feel we have some skill, that we participate for social reasons, and that we get a lot of success if we have that skill and can play and have fun doing it. So all of the personal reasons, the health reasons, and the social reasons are by far the strongest reasons for why people participate in sport. Most Canadians play sport for just play's sake; however, they need to have the knowledge and the skills, and that's where the schools can come in.
We also know—and I think a lot of your questions indicate this—that physical education and sports in school is undervalued and is being cut back. We can give you statistics galore, Mr. Chairman, and I will leave with you copies of “Making the Case for Physical Education in Canada: A Presentation Kit for Leaders”, a document we have had to produce. It is unfortunate that our organization has to defend the value of physical education in school, but we have had to produce this document in order to be able to make the case that school classes are being cut back; that it's optional past grade 9; that qualified teachers are not teaching it; and that middle management within the school system has been decimated. A good example is found in British Columbia. There were consultants in every school board, of which there are 33 in British Columbia. B.C. is now down to one school board with a consultant, a helping teacher for whatever schools there are within that jurisdiction.
As we see it, the last issue apart from the funding issue is that there is very little collaboration between schools and community sport programs. We can probably give you some examples of that, but you just have to take a look at the facilities. The schools are closed on weekends, and oftentimes they're not shared facilities. It's usually the janitors in the schools who prohibit access, because they don't want their facilities dirty. It's also a question of who's going to pay for cleaning it up or who's going to pay for the equipment when it's broken.
I'll turn to our recommendations. In our organization, we have developed a program called quality daily physical education. In our terms, that happens when every child is mandated to get physical education on a daily basis at every grade level, not just up to grade 9. That physical education includes school sport and intramural sport, as well as instruction. That's the broad definition of physical education.
As a committee, we want you to recognize the role that schools play in the development of sport in Canada. Secondly, we want you to endorse the quality daily physical education program. And by the way, just as an aside, we do give an incentive program to schools that do offer daily physical education programs. Unfortunately, we were only able to give less than 500 awards last year. There are 15,800 schools in Canada. Over the ten-year period in which we have been giving this recognition award program, just over 1,000 schools have accomplished that award or have achieved that level of recognition.
Thirdly, we want you to recognize in your recommendations that school sports need to be expanded to encourage the participation of more students, regardless of gender, economic status, and ability. I'm sure you will not have difficult making that recommendation.
• 1700
The fourth recommendation is that Canadian schools
start to place a higher priority on physical education.
By that, we mean co-curricular, intramural, and school
sports, as well as instructional. Make it a compulsory
part of the school experience.
We felt that the last recommendation was an attempt to start to get a look at the status of what's happening across Canada in this area. We cannot do it alone. Because there is no federal agency for education, we hope that with your support, the federal government will suggest strongly that a longitudinal, pan-Canadian study be undertaken to take a look at just exactly what's happening in our schools. We can give you some stats, but they're not accurate and they have not been scientifically established. They're only based on who gives them to us. A ministry of education will say it has a minimum time requirement for physical education in its schools, but if you get down into the schools, you know it's not being applied. We'd like to know exactly what is happening.
Thank you for the opportunity to make our presentation to you.
[Translation]
The Acting Chairman (Mr. Denis Coderre): Thank you very much, Ms. Cousineau and Mr. Parthenais. Before we start with the questions, I would like to know what you live on. Do you receive federal grants?
Secondly, although we have common objectives insofar as sport is concerned, we must distinguish between jurisdictions. Since education falls under a provincial jurisdiction, do you not think that we should have more co-operation among the provincial ministers and establish a sports policy, rather than launch an offensive in the schools? If sports policy were conducted through a sports department, as we were talking about a short time ago, rather than infringing on education, do you not think it would have a much greater chance of success?
[English]
Ms. Sue Cousineau: To answer your first question, we do get funding from the federal government. Traditionally, it was from the Department of Fitness and Amateur Sport—and I used to work in that department as a federal bureaucrat, so my answers to you may be different from the answers you heard previously. We do get some funding from Health Canada, and our organization has been fairly privileged to get that kind of funding; however, it is very tenuous at this point in time. It's no different from what happens on the Heritage side, but it's on the Health side for organizations at the national level. Our funding was terminated this year, but a major lobby then went forward to Minister Rock in order to try to reinstate it. But the $10 million doesn't go very far.
Secondly, as far as collaboration goes, there's no federal agency. We do know of countries that have federal departments of education that have instituted sport policies. Australia is one, England is another, and great strides have been made in those countries. Canada, unfortunately, is not in that area.
Because we're a national organization, our funding comes from health—not all of it, but a sizeable sum. They don't talk to the ministries of education. They don't even bring them around the same table. It's the ministries of sport and recreation that meet, and they're a legacy from the Minister of Fitness and Amateur Sport. They're now getting the ministers of recreation around the table, but they have not made an attempt to bring in the ministers of education. Intergovernmental collaboration is needed, although I must say that at the last ministers' conference, they did make a strong statement that they wanted to approach their colleagues in education to make a better case for inclusion of physical activity in the school system. They don't have the jurisdiction, though. They can only work in collaboration to try to make that case.
On a policy in sport, sport is part of a physical activity continuum in our terms. It's just the nomenclature. Sport is an approach, sport requires rules, and sport requires some competition, although it could be at a very low end. We're trying to promote physical activity, and sport is a venue for that avenue. So if you have a policy in sport, no matter which way you can make effect and encourage or nudge the ministries of education to move forward, I applaud you. I would like to see it broader, a policy on physical activity and sport.
• 1705
[Translation]
The Acting Chairman (Mr. Denis Coderre): Thank you.
Mr. Mark, then Mr. Perron and Mr. Proud.
[English]
Mr. Inky Mark: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Welcome to the committee.
My first question is a simple one. Currently, is there a school in Canada that offers a compulsory physical education program right across all the grade levels?
Ms. Sue Cousineau: Compulsory? No. There may be in private schools. It's interesting to note that the more you pay a private school, the more they realize the value of physical activity and physical education. But it is not mandated anywhere. The provinces of British Columbia and Manitoba are the only ones that mandate compulsory physical education up to grade 10. The rest is up to grade 9.
Mr. Inky Mark: In regard to my second question, the final one, obviously your organization is really a lobbying organization, basically, and I'm surprised to hear that ministers of education aren't involved.
You know most of the problems can be solved at the school board level. That's where all the decisions are made regarding the curriculum and access to public buildings, so why doesn't your organization work at the grassroots? Why doesn't your membership lobby the school boards and get them to resolve these problems? These are the problems; they have the solutions.
Ms. Sue Cousineau: We do that, very actively.
We like to think we're not a lobby organization. We do some advocacy work. We do an awful lot of promotion and assisting teachers to do their job better, so we are also a program and resource development and professional development association.
In education, as you may or may not know—you've been teaching—you may have all the best policies at the ministry level, at the provincial level, but it's the implementation of those policies. Now, in the last three or four years, that is not even happening at the school board level; it's happening at the school level. The principal has been given a great deal of authority to implement, to hire staff, to make it daily, to make it compulsory. So that's the level we're trying to reach, the individual school and the principal.
We're also trying to reach the parents of these kids, because that's a very strong voice. It's the parent group that has made changes as far as French-language training is concerned; it has made changes within a number of different avenues in the school system, and that's the group we want to try to reach and influence. I don't think parents really know what's going on or not going on in schools. We need to present a report card to the parents as to what's happening in schools, and they can take it to the principal and the teachers and start asking some strong questions.
Mr. Inky Mark: Are you presenting this type of report card to the parents, on the research side?
Ms. Sue Cousineau: Yes, we do. We have a package with which we go through the parent council groups. In some provinces it's not yet formed, not yet mandatory, but in Ontario, for example, schools now must have a parent council committee, and we're trying to reach those groups through that avenue. So it's a multi-level, multi-approach that we're trying to do. It's unfortunate that we should have to do it in this day and age.
Mr. Inky Mark: Thank you.
[Translation]
The Acting Chairman (Mr. Denis Coderre): Thank you, Mr. Mark.
Mr. Perron.
Mr. Gilles Perron: Thank you, Madam, and thank you for being here today.
I have some serious problems concerning what you said. I would be the first one to admit that there is no dialogue between the school boards, teachers, municipalities, etc. concerning sports, physical education and physical fitness in the schools, but I feel that just like the other people I mentioned, you have some decisions to make.
• 1710
I would like to ask a question. What physical fitness teacher
would get up on a Saturday morning at five, as Pat undoubtedly did,
to go and coach a hockey team?
Why is it that in Quebec's 96 school boards you have to fight to get access to the pools, which are in the CEGEPS? It's the same thing in Ontario, Alberta and everywhere else. Why? There are pools that people can use. The pools are not used between teaching times.
They all seem to be fighting. The school board wants to keep its soccer field because it's part of the budget. It would not lend it to the town, for fear of getting some boot marks on it. In the same way, the town will not lend its minor baseball field, because the physical education teachers are a bunch of idiots who don't know how to use it and will break the equipment.
When are you going to start talking to each other? It's my question.
Mr. Daniel Parthenais (Director, Special Programs, Canadian Association for Health, Physical Education, Recreation and Dance): That is a good question. I think it is mainly a matter of territory, whether you're talking about the school board or the communities. If one of them built or paid for the facilities, it will be unwilling to share them, and often cites the costs of maintenance, management, etc. as the reason.
However, I have knowledge of activities taking place in the City of Gatineau, for example, where agreements exist. The city has no facilities, and has entered into agreements with the school boards to share sports facilities and equipment.
I agree that there should be more agreements like this.
Mr. Gilles Perron: Before getting started, we should realize one basic thing: whether it's a school system, a municipal system or a provincial system, my taxes, out of my pocket, and yours are going into paying for these facilities. They belong to the people. We're not interested in splitting hairs.
Some serious work needs to be done in arranging the educational and common systems to make sports equipment available to everyone, not just to the teachers, but to everyone.
[English]
Ms. Sue Cousineau: You're actually correct, Mr. Perron, because that's one of the issues we identified. There is very little collaboration, and it's not just the use, maintenance, and care of the facilities.
Our schools are the best fitness clubs in Canada. We should be proud of that. Every school has a gymnasium. Some of the high schools have access to swimming pools or have their own swimming pools. We do not use them to the fullest extent. Who's to blame? We can point fingers, but it's a matter of getting the recreation community and the education community together. And it's not them; it's going to be the citizens like you who are going to be mad enough to say this is ridiculous.
The other issue that lies around that is that a child who plays in sports in the community sometimes is restricted to playing the same sport in the school, or vice versa. One model of the club development doesn't integrate and move up with the school's model. Now the school is the model where the children learn these skills. The club is where they hone them, where they practise them, where they perfect them. The two should be working together. There are some wonderful communities where that happens, but on the whole it's not great.
Mr. Gilles Perron: I agree with you. It's a shame, but it's a fact.
Ms. Sue Cousineau: Absolutely. It's a fact and it's North America-wide.
[Translation]
The Acting Chairman (Mr. Denis Coderre): Thank you, Mr. Perron.
I would like you to explain something. You represent the Canadian Association for Health, Physical Education, Recreation and Dance. I do not know whether dance is physical education or recreation, but why dance? Do you have a special program for dance? Is it line dancing?
[English]
The achy-breaky dance? What is it?
Ms. Sue Cousineau: All of the above.
The Acting Chairman (Mr. Denis Coderre): Let's tango.
Ms. Sue Cousineau: I don't know when you were last in school, but it's part of the curriculum in school, where children learn dance.
• 1715
We won't even be able to pronounce the name of our
organization if they keep on adding initials to the end
of it. But it is a sign to say publicly that in the
education system, a quality program is a balanced
program and it includes sport, dance, fitness, and
outdoor pursuits. We do teach folk dance and line
dance.
The Acting Chairman (Mr. Denis Coderre): Mr. Proud.
Mr. George Proud: Thank you very much and thank you for your presentation. I wanted to touch on a couple of areas you mentioned.
When you began your comments you mentioned our involvement with the committee dealing with professional sports. I come from a part of the country where the only professional sport we have is horse racing. We don't have hockey, baseball, or any of those professional sports. I think the committee's idea of this was to find out what's happening in Canada with our professional teams—and some of these teams go back a lot of years, the hockey teams in particular—and whether or not we're going to be able to keep these teams in Canada, because the way things are happening in North America, the reality is that if something isn't done we're not going to have them. It's as simple as that.
I believe that if there's something that can be done for these organizations through the municipalities or the provinces or the federal system, if that is achieved then it's imperative upon them to put money back into the community right across the country to help sports programs further develop. I think they've almost said that to us in their presentations to us. Whether that will come about or not, I don't know, but I do know that in the part of the country where I come from—and I come from Prince Edward Island—we do need to build on what you people are saying in our schools and in our universities in providing sports training, people with the qualifications to train these people. We have coaches, and we have lots of good coaches, but we don't have enough of them. We don't have enough of them in Atlantic Canada. That's one of the problems we've faced in Atlantic Canada, where we don't have the population. We have our fair share of people in professional sports as a result of the training programs down there, but I believe we could have a lot more.
I do believe the school system over the years has dropped programs because of a lack of money. I think we have to somehow instil back into these systems that this has to take place. We're all uptight over crime and the involvement of youth with nothing to do. One of the things we have to do is to instil in the school systems and community systems that this is the way. I think it's a proven fact that young men and women who are involved in sports and those types of activities pretty well are pretty good people by and large. Some of them may fall by the wayside, but for the most part it doesn't happen.
That's how I see professional sport tying into these types of things we're talking about.
You also talked about the ethics in sports and the ethical mess. There's no doubt this has raised flags in the last number of years, but I think this is nothing new. I'm not condoning it. You mentioned these performance-enhancing drugs; that's a fact of life. It's not right, but it's happened over the years. It's happened internationally especially, and our people have paid the price for it, those who get caught. I think that's justifiable.
There's also the violence, the behaviour outside. This is something where if you have two men, particularly men who have been involved in football, hockey or boxing, and they get into an argument out on the street, those things are going to happen. Maybe it's not right, but it's going to happen. These young men and women today who have their idols...their idols today are just as precious to them as mine were to me. Mine was a fellow by the name of “Boom Boom” Geoffrion. These people were role models.
There are still great role models today. There are the Sosas and the McGwires and all these people, who I think young men and women can look up to, and they do a pretty good job.
So, yes, there are some terrible things that happen in sports, like this sexual behaviour business, that we have to get control of, but I don't think we want to over-emphasize all these things because this is something we have to live with and try to stop. I don't think we should get too hung up on things that have happened, and will happen again, but we have to try to stop it.
• 1720
I know from some of the suggestions that have come to
this committee that a lot of people in Canada are
saying you can't do these sorts of things, but if we're
committed to trying to keep the hockey teams, the ball
teams, and the basketball teams in Canada, something has
to happen at those levels of government I mentioned to
you.
If we do that and it becomes a reality, it's imperative for them to put some money back into the community to allow the things to happen you have talked about here this afternoon. Those are just my comments. I really have no questions.
Ms. Sue Cousineau: I agree with you that an athlete who is playing a professional sport is very influential and has tremendous power over children who look up to them. They need to conduct themselves appropriately, because that power can be read differently.
So it's violence and performance-enhancing drugs, as you said. We're starting to see in high schools performance-enhancing drugs that were never ever considered at the high school level. They're not being used to build up the body, which is one of the reasons they're used for football, but it's for body physique amongst young boys. You thought the image problem was with girls, but the problem is with boys. Our whole young generation of kids is dealing with very different sorts of ideals today.
The other thing about models is there are very few professional models for women and young girls. If we continue with professional sports, I'd like to see more emphasis and more input and a broadening of that model to try to reach all kinds of kids and both genders.
The Acting Chairman (Mr. Denis Coderre): Merci.
Mr. O'Brien, the teacher.
Mr. Pat O'Brien: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
There's so much one could ask. First of all, I'd like to thank you for your presentation and zero in on two or three questions and concerns.
First of all, some of the early deliberations of this subcommittee were reported on because we were hearing from professional sports leagues and so on, and that obviously had a certain amount of sex appeal to the media. That's what got the headlines.
We are looking at sport more generally, but just the name of this committee would take a lifetime to study. But there is a kind of special emphasis on the economic impact of sport in our raison d'être, and I think my colleague, Mr. Proud, has explained that. So there is some focus on the professional sports franchises in Canada.
I want to just digress for a second and bring in the professional athletes as role models. Yes, they're role models, and some are not very good role models in whatever sport you want to name, but I think we can overplay that. There are problems right in the school system. We all know of the unethical teacher who is coaching kids and giving them hell as if they are highly paid professionals. I have had to chastise other professional teachers for their conduct. There are parents who come and berate their kids and any other kid at little league games. You'd swear they had paid $100 to watch professionals play and were screaming at them, when it's their own kid or the other kids.
I think we tend to lay too much, and we make a mistake when we do, on those professional athletes who act up. I don't discount that they have a negative impact on kids, but I think we ought to start with the parents who misbehave and the teachers who, unfortunately, sometimes misbehave, and not just over-fixate on these professional athletes who get into trouble. Don't you think there's a danger that we do that sometimes?
• 1725
Mr. Daniel Parthenais: I'd like to say we're in this business basically for the benefit of the kids and how they grow up. In talking about professional sports and all that, if they don't get the love of physical activity, participation in whatever sport or physical activity it is, and if they don't have a quality education to steer them on the right path when they're young, when will they get it?
Mr. Pat O'Brien: What I'm saying is, I agree with you, but I'm specifically talking about role model.
Mr. Daniel Parthenais: And that is a spin-off. For example, we were talking about professional sports, where if they get proper training, there's a good chance they'll keep on doing it and get better at it and go into professional sports themselves.
Mr. Pat O'Brien: Right. But either you're not understanding my point or I didn't explain it very well.
The point I'm trying to make is that we can over-fixate on bad behaviour by professional athletes as role models. We can over-concentrate on that and forget that we have problems with parents and some teachers, at younger ages. That's my point. Do you agree that this is an accurate point, and if so, how do we deal with that?
These professional athletes themselves who are getting into trouble and being bad role models were, in many cases, exposed to some of the nonsense that I'm talking about when they were little kids, and they had incredible pressures on them from a teacher, or a parent, or a little league coach berating them. In some cases, they act the way they do because this is what they have experienced.
Mr. Daniel Parthenais: As a quick comment on that, that's why programs like the national coaching certification program exist, and that's where we're talking about quality education where certain things like that would not happen. Of course, there is educating of the parents that also goes with the commercials and whatever we see in the media.
Ms. Sue Cousineau: No doubt in every profession, be it medical, teacher, engineer, there are some bad apples in the system. I'm not defending the fact that we do have some bad teachers and some physical educators who are regressive, if not punitive, in their approach to kids, and that's a huge turn-off.
As an organization, that concerns us greatly, and we try our best to try to bring resources and opportunities for professional development so that they can be aware of some of the different issues and new approaches to treating kids. That, again, is one of the things our organization does.
But in defining quality physical education, our definition is not just that it's a balanced type of activity that the kids are exposed to; it's to be taught by qualified and interested and committed professionals, and it's also supported by supportive administration and safe and adequate facilities.
So it all goes hand in hand in that definition. I would love to be able to say our profession is above all that, but....
Mr. Pat O'Brien: No, and you're speaking to the converted, because as a qualified physical education teacher in a former life, I know what your organization is all about. I was, in fact, part of it, and I fully support your goals. I just think we can forget to look at our own house sometimes, because one of the key factors as to why kids drop out of physical activity, organized sports, when you ask them, is the unbelievable pressure from parents and coaches, and the mistreatment, and that's by the time they're 12 or 14 years of age.
I want to ask a question. This battle has been going on a long time by CAHPERD and other organizations, and it's not being won, obviously, or you wouldn't be here today. Why have we not been able as a society—pick the province you want, Quebec, Ontario, Prince Edward Island, wherever, any of the ten—to sell even one province in this country on the need to have mandatory physical education in our school system, despite years and years of trying to win this battle? Why is there no success?
Ms. Sue Cousineau: If we knew the answer to that question, we wouldn't be here today.
I don't want to make light of it. In fact, I think the situation is worse today than even ten years ago.
Mr. Pat O'Brien: That's why I asked the question.
Ms. Sue Cousineau: There are many answers to that, and I think we have not impressed.... Whether it's legislated or not, how do you change behaviour? Look at that as a model, and there are several ways to do it. Look at smoking as a model, a changed behaviour. There has been legislation to say you can't do it. There's no legislation in place that says thou must provide quality, balanced physical education to every child. There is no concerted effort to ensure that the teacher who teaches it is qualified. A generalist teacher now is supposed to be a master of all things, so we do get kids in our schools exposed to six weeks of murderball and basketball lay-ups and that's it. It turns our crank too.
• 1730
There's also an awareness amongst the general
population. We hope the physical activity guide type
of initiative Health Canada spoke about will get at the
fact that fitness, active living or active lifestyles,
is a middle age, middle class, middle
tire phenomenon, and in fact our kids are active anyway.
No, they're not. They're not active. They're being
bused to school. They sit in school for six hours,
they get bused home, and now, because of the single
parent or both parents working, they're at home
watching TV. They are very nervous about sending
their children out onto the streets to play or into the
community.
Our kids are sedentary, and that awareness amongst the
general population has not hit them. It will hit when
the health care bill becomes really high.
So we don't have the magic solution, but there are a lot of reasons why.
[Translation]
The Acting Chairman (Mr. Denis Coderre): Thank you very much.
Mr. Perron.
Mr. Gilles Perron: She made me smoke here. So, smoke young.
Some Hon. Members: Oh! Oh!
Mr. Gilles Perron: It's a joke, it's a joke.
The Acting Chairman (Mr. Denis Coderre): Are you challenging us? Are you stopping smoking?
Mr. Gilles Perron: It's a joke. I go out in Ottawa, Hull, Saint-Eustache or Toronto. At noon, I might pass by a school, and I see a bunch of big galoots leaning up against the fence smoking. There may be some supervisors keeping things orderly.
[English]
George, you'll confirm that because you're as old as me.
[Translation]
When I was young, in my hometown of Abitibi in Évain, a quiet place, there might have been 20 boys in the whole school. At noon, we played baseball—with the teachers. We had no time to think about smoking and breaking windows. We played baseball with the teachers.
I think that today, that is what is lacking: getting up in the morning, enjoying what you are doing, not being controlled by a union which says that you, a physical education teacher, must not work at lunch time. That is the problem. It isn't the teachers. The system is at fault, and we must set it in order. That is why you see young people hanging around and breaking windows instead of playing soccer. I used to play on a cow pasture, not on a field with lines. No, there was no backstop. It was a cow pasture out in front of the church, on concession five and six. I have great memories of that! But I do not like what I see in today's young people.
That is the end of my comments.
The Acting Chairman (Mr. Denis Coderre): Do you have anything to say to that, Mr. Parthenais, even though you are not part of the same generation?
Mr. Daniel Parthenais: No, not really.
Mr. Gilles Perron: I am not old. I may have grey hair, but—
Mr. Daniel Parthenais: I completely agree that we should have models to provide an ideal. That is exactly the position young women find themselves in when they do less physical activity coming into secondary school, or perhaps even at the intermediate level. I should point out that more girls than boys decrease their physical activity, even though the numbers for boys are quite worrying as well.
But we do not have role models. When you were at school, for example, teachers would play basketball, soccer or baseball in the school yard. We tend not to see that as much anymore.
And it's the same thing with parents. Families live in apartment buildings, and you won't often find one parent or even both coming down to go for a walk or play ball with their kids. This means that role models are even more important.
• 1735
Mr. Gilles Perron: When I was young, school girls and the nuns used to play dodge ball, tag and other games like that together. The nuns were in the yard too.
Mr. Daniel Parthenais: That is one of our programs.
[English]
Mr. Pat O'Brien: Some of them had a good arm, too.
Ms. Sue Cousineau: It's pretty hard to play in long skirts.
The point you're making is it was compulsory then. You had it every year, and you were playing every day, as much as you had other subjects every day.
We're trying to get the education system back to its core values, get back to the basics. Yes, unions play roles. Yes, there's the excuse that our day is not long enough and we have other, more important subjects. But if you don't have a child who is healthy enough to sit behind the desk to learn these subjects, they're not going to learn. If your car rusts out, you can't run it; if your body rusts out, you can't learn.
Mr. Gilles Perron: I'm not blaming the teacher; I'm blaming the father, the mother, the teacher, the system.
Ms. Sue Cousineau: Yes. But I'm blaming the system. That's where we're trying to get at. We've had some tremendous support in moving the concept forward, the ideal that every child should have mandatory physical education on a daily basis, from kindergarten to grade 12, kindergarten to grade 13.
Just this past month, the Canadian Medical Association passed a nationwide resolution that they should do that. That's exactly the terms of their resolution. We hope if the parents and the educators hear that, it might lend some credence to what we've been saying for years.
But it has to be either legislated or a very strong social movement to say get back to basics; our kids need to be active. It's not only for health reasons; it's for their skills and behaviours that are to last a lifetime, and for social reasons. They're learning about rules, how to live within structures, get along with each other, and deal with their behaviour and violence outbreaks. That's all part of the sport and physical activity field. We're not seeing that.
I'm pleased to see you believe it, but I would love to see this committee come out with a direction that this must happen, because there is no other institution in Canada nationally that can say that. We haven't the power or the authority to say it. All we can do is advocate.
[Translation]
The Acting Chairman (Mr. Denis Coderre): We have discussed many issues today, and I think we should be careful not to generalize. But there are many wonderful examples here. As our participants said, we did have a very good childhood. So we have very good examples to draw on.
Do you really think that we can instill values in young people through legislation? In the light of what you have just said, we would have to change practically the entire system. Perhaps we need to adjust to the new system. I don't want to start an intergenerational war here, but there's no doubt that we are in a state of transition. The family is no longer what it was.
Some people want to go back, back to the good old days. But they will have to be realistic: We cannot ever go back to the good old days. Perhaps we blame the system, but in the end, change always begins with the individual.
Yesterday, the Canadian coaches association appeared before the committee. We are always talking about leadership, partnership and accountability. But who should be setting the example? Is it our leaders? Does it come from the top down, or the other way around? If the example is set from the top down, we are back where we started. What is the federal government's role, and what is the individual's? Do we solve the problem by setting up a new structure, a new department, or do we go back to the Department of Fitness, Recreation and Sport and see if they can be the political standard-bearers for this? But with all the departments and organizations in the world, if we do not have the political will, as expressed by a specific body, I don't know what we can ever achieve. The last task force was established in 1969, and 30 years later, the problem is exactly the same as the one they expressed in the first paragraph of their report that year:
[English]
the same concern as what's happening right now. So maybe we spent money for nothing and didn't put the emphasis where we should have.
• 1740
[Translation]
Do you believe we can solve the problem through legislation, or through a new model, or will we have to work together so that we gain a better understanding of what the situation is today and try to work from there?
[English]
Ms. Sue Cousineau: It's not either/or, and I don't think legislation is the only answer. We can see that in a number of different social change movements. It certainly helps. Yes, there needs to be collaboration. Yes, there needs to be influence from the rural grassroots. The whole environment recycling program started with the people, not with legislation. Then the municipal governments came on board and started to provide a service.
We have excellent school facilities. We have quality programs that are part of policies of each provincial government. It is not being mandated, and it is not being implemented. So I think it has to happen on all levels and from all sides. That's why we try to approach parents. That's why we try to reach kids themselves with the message that it's important they make healthy choices, but it has to be fun for them. Legislation certainly helps, but legislation without teeth won't do it, and it's not the only answer.
[Translation]
The Acting Chairman (Mr. Denis Coderre): But all this will require political will, and individual will.
[English]
Ms. Sue Cousineau: Yes.
[Translation]
The Acting Chairman (Mr. Denis Coderre): We have three minutes left. Mr. Proud and Mr. O'Brien have a last comment to make.
[English]
Mr. George Proud: Thank you very much.
I have just one last comment. Perhaps you could get moving something like the anti-smoking campaign that took place here some years ago. There was a campaign that took off and took hold, and it made you ashamed to take a cigarette. Perhaps there's some way this type of thing could be put into a system like this, along with some legislation and an awful lot of peer pressure, I guess is the word you use. I've never seen a campaign like that before in my time.
Ms. Sue Cousineau: I agree with you, and it's starting to happen, although on a smaller scale. We have associations and groups forming in the Atlantic provinces, such as the Parents Association for Physical Education. That's being modelled in other provinces. So we're trying to find out what worked and what didn't work. It worked because the people wanted it to work. There were health reasons, but there was also a whole bunch of other social change strategies that simultaneously went along with it.
[Translation]
The Acting Chairman (Mr. Denis Coderre): A last comment, Mr. O'Brien.
[English]
Mr. Pat O'Brien: Thanks, Mr. Chairman. I think I can probably do this in about a minute or so.
You've given us five recommendations, and I'd just like to quickly refer to them. On the first one, as a committee we can issue such a statement and recommend it, but with all due respect, it's kind of a motherhood statement. We could say, yes, we recognize it, no problem.
Two, three, and four are all under provincial jurisdiction. You know that as educators. We could recommend—and I wouldn't have any problem doing so as a committee member—that the federal government tell the provincial governments to legislate phys ed. That's what I think the witnesses meant, Mr. Chairman, that in Ontario, Quebec, or wherever, they say each school shall have daily physical education. That's what's meant by legislation. So two, three, and four are provincial decisions that I hope we as a federal government will encourage them to make.
The only one that's really federal is the fifth one, and I would support a study funded by the federal government to look at exactly what you say, that is, what is the role of phys ed and sport in schools, and what is the impact across Canada.
So I'll just leave it with more of a suggestion that I hope you have already begun to take up, and that is, I think the lobby effort has to be primarily at the provincial level. You have to go to the provincial premiers and ministers and get them to make these decisions. If we try, they are going to tell us it's not our business.
Ms. Sue Cousineau: I fully appreciate your comments, and I thank you. Your analysis of our recommendations is great. All we're asking is you try using your influence in making recommendations to the provincial governments, and that's the best we can ask for. There is a Council of Ministers of Education that sits around a table. It is a very influential group, and we can consider dealing with them.
Mr. Pat O'Brien: Thank you. We'll try to lend our voice to that.
[Translation]
The Acting Chairman (Mr. Denis Coderre): Thank you, Mr. O'Brien.
Ms. Cousineau and Mr. Parthenais, thank you for your very interesting presentation. Obviously, this is an issue that has concerned us in the past and that also concerns us today. Your statements will no doubt be reflected in our report. Thank you again.
The meeting is adjourned.