[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]
Tuesday, December 12, 1995
.1104 
[English]
The Chair: Colleagues, we'll bring this meeting to order. This is the first full-fledged meeting we have scheduled relative to our national unity initiative.
For those people listening, watching, or in the room today and not familiar with our project, it is simply an effort in inviting Canadians from all parts of the country to submit their ideas on how we can better celebrate the successes, the merits, the values, the traditions, and the greatness of this country we call Canada, as well as find concrete ways of learning more about each other.
There are a lot of Canadians who feel that one of the reasons we have some national unity difficulties, if I can put it that way, is that we don't know enough about each other. It's a very large country, great distances are involved, and as Canadians we should do everything possible to get to know each other.
.1105
As you know, colleagues, government can't do it all, especially at these times. Building a country goes step by step and building block by building block, and that means garnering ideas from all Canadians. It's my feeling that Canadians feel passionately about this country and that they want to contribute in any possible way towards national unity.
Today we've arranged a number of witnesses to appear before us. We've had the good fortune, in a couple of instances, of having our own colleagues, members of Parliament, to help in that regard, which is appreciated very much. So between now and the end of this particular meeting, we'll be hearing from witnesses who are accompanied by a couple of MPs; namely, Mr. Mills, from Broadview - Greenwood, and Mr. Discepola, from the province of Quebec.
Our first witnesses today for this particular meeting are Greg Vezina and Dick Mathieu. They're accompanied by Dennis Mills, the MP for Broadview - Greenwood.
I understand, gentlemen, that you'll be speaking for about seven, eight, or nine minutes. We'll take one, two, or three questions for you, and then we'll let you go. We understand that you're under a bit of a tight schedule. Then we'll get to the other witnesses, because we have a number of them.
Who wants to start this presentation? Mr. Mills.
Mr. Dennis Mills (Broadview - Greenwood): Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. We appreciate the opportunity to appear before the heritage committee of the House of Commons.
Mr. Chairman and fellow colleagues from the House of Commons, a group of MPs and citizens from various parts of Canada met the second week after the referendum. Obviously we talked about the chaotic experience that we all went through the last week of the referendum. We felt that a large number of Canadians from coast to coast felt that they really didn't get an opportunity to participate to the full extent in the last referendum. We of course all know that one of the real demonstrations of that latent patriotism that most Canadians have was in the big rally in Montreal the Friday before the referendum vote.
A number of us got together and built on that idea. We thought we should try to listen and garner and gather ideas from people across Canada, people who had very specific views on how we could build a better Canada and build the spirit of the country, which ultimately, Mr. Chairman, are inextricably intertwined with the whole job creation plan that we must focus on at the same time.
After a few days we came up with this theme, ``Building a Better Canada''. We sent letters out to fellow MPs and senators and asked them to ask their constituents to put together on not more than two pages their best idea on how they thought we could work together in building a better Canada. We told those people that their ideas would be presented to the House of Commons, that we would put them in a binder, and that the binder would grow.
We've handed out this binder, Mr. Chairman, to all members of this committee. We don't have the resources instantly to do them for all members of the House. But we hope before Christmas every member will have this binder, they can add to it as ideas come in, and we will circulate it.
The whole purpose is to review these ideas, take the best that are actionable, that are doable immediately, and at the same time attach to those ideas a symbol. In other words, the symbol you see over to the left of this room is a symbol we would propose that any party, whether they be students, whether they be small businessmen or women, whether they be athletic endeavours, whether they be tourism projects - anything; for any action that has a contribution to building a better Canada, we would encourage them to use this logo on their letterhead, on their factory, on their trucks, so that this symbol will start sending out to the consciousness of the country, let's all work together in rebuilding this spirit.
.1110
Today I would like you to hear from a couple of people from the community as a sample of a couple of the ideas we've heard. I'd like to now turn it over to Dick Mathieu.
Mr. Dick Mathieu (Individual Presentation): Thank you, Dennis.
By way of introduction, Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, frankly as a Canadian I'm not only honoured, but I also feel quite privileged to be here. It's probably the most important subject our country has confronted in my lifetime.
When I was approached by Dennis, I was asked to participate and think of ways my work environment particularly could contribute to building a better Canada.
My business, as you should know, is largely working with large shopping centre systems across the country with a view to improving the revenue performance by generating revenue from national advertisers. Basically, we've established a national network of shopping centres and we vend the shopping centres and the common area of shopping centres as a national medium or an alternative to TV or national newspaper placements.
Canadians live in a covered shopping centre societal system. Statistically, Canadians shop in or visit our covered mall systems an average of once every twelve days. They come, they browse, they shop, they interact, they spend their time there. The system allows in a personal, touchable way - you can show them things, you can hand them things, they can touch your product, you can interact with them. It's an extremely intimate, if you like, opportunity to communicate with the Canadian public.
In summary, through the 200 major - and I point out the statistics to you because I think if you understood the power of the deal I'm talking about, some of the thoughts I would like to express to you might make a little more sense - shopping centres in Canada, 90% of Canadians interact once every two weeks. Statistically, these 200 systems represent 75 million square feet of retail space and 20,000 retailers, and they interact with 500 million visitors a year.
These are some of the ways these centres do currently or could contribute to the concept and the notion of building a better Canada, which is what we're here for.
First of all, they can contribute to the environment by making sure that their systems are environmentally friendly - from containers for recycling to energy-efficient lighting systems, to oxygen regenerating horticultural systems, to interior and exterior landscaping. All can be done to contribute to building a better Canada.
Another way they can contribute is to Canadian seniors. I don't know whether you know it or not, but an awful lot of seniors in Canada spend their leisure time in shopping centres. More and more centres are paying attention to this. They haven't established this as their communications positioning, but in fact they are contributing to a better Canada by contributing to our senior citizens by making these comfortable places to go for recreation, exercise, special seatings.
I just came back from a European trip. It's amazing what shopping centres outside London do for their senior groups. They provide them with electronic wheelchairs and seating systems to make it pleasurable, and places for them to eat - again, contributing to building a better Canada for our senior citizens.
Another way centres, these big systems, can contribute - and I think this is a part you people, the federal government particularly, can really play - is by heightening an awareness and understanding of the Canadian social net. Personally, I feel there's a lot of ignorance out there.
Centres could do that by dedicating space for community programs. For instance, a percentage of the gross common area could be dedicated for volunteer use or community activities or programming.
A second way is through the electronic age, which I think you're going to hear a little bit more about in a minute. The community and social net programs we have in this country could be communicated electronically to millions and millions of people in what I see as a relatively affordable manner through our shopping centre systems.
.1115
Another way shopping centres can contribute is to the charitable community, by making their spaces available for charitable promotions within the communities they serve. Increasingly this is....
By the way, many of the things I'm talking about are being done. One of the things that has not been done is that we haven't wrapped it in a ``Building a Better Canada'' positioning. I think it's important for people to understand that some of these things are being done. They're not monumental things; they're basic things to make life better for Canadians and build a better Canada.
The cultural community is another area where we could contribute tremendously, I think. The malls have the traffic, so why not take the art and the arts to the traffic, to the people? In Toronto, Caravan is but once a year, but cultural activity, for instance, occurs on an ongoing basis.
Finally, I think a tremendous area where centres could contribute to building a better Canada is to Canadian youth. Seniors spend a lot of time in shopping centres, but so do the youth. They congregate in centres, and there's an enormous opportunity for program development working with the schools, which is being done in some centres right now. Use the mall traffic as a way to build awareness of school sport, use malls as the stage for young people...sports and parking lots, etc.
I think the list is endless, but if you look at the system and the power of these big systems.... We're unique. We have the most sophisticated shopping centre systems in the world, and we're on the cutting edge of technology. It's our climate that drives it. I think there are a number of ways the centres can go beyond what they're doing to contribute to the notion of building a better Canada. Thank you.
Mr. Greg Vezina (Individual Presentation): Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and members of the committee.
[Translation]
I'll speak in English because my French isn't very good.
[English]
Communications is the essential element to arrive at a consensus regarding building a better Canada. The referendum and the rally in Montreal demonstrated more clearly than anything else in my lifetime that Canadians at the drop of a pin are prepared to rally en masse, to travel, to communicate their feelings to other Canadians. The problem is that we have 26 million Canadians, but not all of us can drive or fly to Montreal. I believe we should use our natural advantage in communications, technology and infrastructure to allow people to communicate more directly with each other and with government.
We have recent examples of the Internet being used to do this. My company has been involved in Internet applications. We did the Ontario provincial election on the Internet and we had a leaders debate on the Internet. During the Quebec referendum we put up a ``Quebec after the vote'' site. Hundreds of thousands of people came in to the site and looked at a series of questions we asked about what we would do if Quebec voted yes and what would we do if Quebec voted no. Almost 5,000 people actually voted on that poll, and it was the largest Internet political poll in the history of the world. It was put together in about three days and put on one television station, and it was a massive success.
I believe the Government of Canada, using existing resources such as government computer systems and 800 numbers, could allow all Canadians, at no cost and without them having to buy Internet accounts, to communicate with government and with other Canadians through public discussion chat and news groups. There are a couple of news organizations and private companies trying this. The Globe and Mail and CBC are trying it in their public forums.
However, the difference between those approaches and mine is very simple. Those approaches are moderated, designed and judged by news departments on the basis of news values. I believe the public would like to communicate directly with each other and not be told what they should see, say, hear or do. They want to decide how to govern themselves, how to reform this country and how to build a better Canada themselves. It's my belief, and I'm not alone.... Many young people believe that electronic communications is as much a fundamental right in this country as food, clothing and shelter.
.1120
It's my belief that government must set a public policy, and an example, and use its resources to open up government so that we can talk to each other, better represent ourselves in Parliament, and Parliament can more directly represent us.
The Chair: Thank you.
Mr. Mills: Mr. Chairman, I would like to thank you for the opportunity we've had to table this idea, but I would be remiss in not informing you that this binder contains over 60 ideas from young people, business people, athletes and artists from all across Canada. By the end of the week these binders will be available to all members of Parliament and other interested parties.
We would also like to table with the industry committee today the 82 top essays from over 600 essays submitted by the top college and university students in Canada. Mr. Chairman, this was the Magna for Canada Scholarship Contest that was held last year. The theme was this: if you were the prime minister, what would you do to improve living standards and promote national unity? So available in the Library of Parliament, for those who are interested, are these 82 essays that deal with the very issue your committee is seized with.
The Chair: Thank you.
Colleagues, because we have a number of witnesses to hear from, I think we're going to have to improvise. I don't think we can go through the usual format of eight, eight and eight. I think we should take just one or two short questions for these witnesses, and then we'll have to hear from the rest.
Mr. Mathieu, I have one question concerning your proposal to make better use of the malls in this country. Do you see that primarily as a private sector initiative? If you see a government role, just what would that be?
Mr. Mathieu: I definitely see it as a private sector initiative. I think the mandate I was given by Dennis is what we could do as an industry. I can't speak for the industry, but these are my ideas as a consultant within the industry.
If the government recognized the power of the communications opportunities of those systems to actually interact on a 15-, 20- or 30-times-a-year basis with the average Canadian, I think it would be well advised and should think seriously about spending moneys in that area, but only if it's a valid media alternative for you. I'm not suggesting any large dollar.... It was more a private sector....
I think where the private sector has not done a good job - and this is across the board, not just in the development business - is in the area of not packaging what they're doing under an umbrella, such as reminding people that because of these activities, we have a better Canada.
The Chair: Okay.
[Translation]
Ms Tremblay (Rimouski - Témiscouata): I very sincerely believe that there is absolutely no communication problem among people in Canada. I have worked with a number of members of this committee and even with other persons who are no longer on our committee. We have never had communication problems. Quebeckers are generally open to others and are recognized, among other things, as being great travellers.
I believe that we in Canada have a fundamental problem regarding the recognition of the Quebec people by the Canadian people and the granting of the powers relating to that recognition. When the chairman of this committee and certain members act as they have done, when the Prime Minister supports them up by denying the very existence of the Quebec people and culture, when they refuse in a way to see the problem, to name it and to recognize it, we are nowhere near being on the road to finding an appropriate solution to our current situation.
I believe that Canada could survive if the Canadian people decided to sit down and negotiate on an equal footing with the Quebec people in order to agree on a modus vivendi. But no, the politicians representing the Canadian people continue to behave like a herd of James Bay caribou. The forge ahead even though they are aware that their path will sooner or later lead them to destruction. When that day comes, you can at least remember that, in a friendly way, we told you so.
.1125
Having said that, I wonder, Mr. Mills, whether you can tell the committee where you got the money to conduct this operation, to hire the consultants who are with you. For your information, after briefly looking through your text, I would like to tell you that Richard Séguin does not at all belong to the category of rock stars. After reading a few pages, I wonder how you can sincerely believe...
The gentleman says that this was the greatest event in his life. You saw that there were three of us around the table when we started. The members are very interested. The Reform Party is absent. We may have no right to say it, but half the members on the other side are absent.
You go into raptures over a trip to Montreal that may have enabled 100... That was very good for the Montreal economy because a lot of things were bought in the stores, including Eaton's downtown. Apart from that, however, what did it do? Where do you think we're going with that? How can you take yourself seriously? I have a great deal of trouble. How much did it cost and who paid for it?
[English]
Mr. Mills: First of all, Madame Tremblay, I should tell you that every contribution to this binder was a volunteer contribution. If you look under ``N'', you will see a presentation here by my colleague John Nunziata. If you go past his remarks you will see contributions from young students who have given sample letters from their school - letters that they've written to fellow Canadians in Quebec. I want you to know, Madame Tremblay, that those students did not charge any money to be in this binder, ``Building a Better Canada''.
[Translation]
Ms Tremblay: I understand very well, but it nevertheless costs money.
[English]
Mr. Mills: These binders are worth $1.80, and we have a hundred of them. As a member of the Canadian Parliament, you get an allocation of fifty of these per year. Because I wasn't using these personally, they're going to other members of Parliament. A couple of my fellow colleagues gave me their allocation so that we could use them to distribute other binders. So I would say the grand total cost of what we have in this binder is about $300, plus the time of my volunteers and one of my House of Commons staffers. Everything else was purely volunteer.
It was not unlike, Madame Tremblay, the type of voluntarism that was demonstrated on that Friday in Montreal. There were 150,000 people who took off work, did not charge anything to go there. They came to speak for Canada.
[Translation]
Ms Tremblay: Well, yes! They had a day off.
[English]
Mr. Mills: The second part of your question has to do with Richard Séguin, who happens to be a friend of mine. I would have to humbly say I believe Richard Séguin is a rock star. Richard Séguin is one of the biggest rock stars in this country. And I would say to you, Madame Tremblay, that if you would read my idea I think you might be sympathetic, because my idea is to....
We talk about Canadian content being played on all radio stations in this country. I don't believe we recognize all Canadian talent right now. In other words, we do not play our franco-Canadian stars, our recording artists, outside of Quebec. So the idea that I submitted was that Quebec francophone Canadian artists like Richard Séguin - I use him as an example - should be played not just on the 340 radio stations in Quebec, they should be played on all radio stations across Canada. I believe that if our francophone recording artists - I cite again Richard Séguin, who in my judgment is the best we have from Quebec, although I declare to you that's a biased opinion - were played on all 1,400 radio stations across Canada, there would then be something in all of Canada for him. I also think those of us who are from outside Quebec would be exposed to one of the greatest talents in our country, which is something we're currently denied.
Does that answer it, Mrs. Tremblay?
The Chair: That's the end of this round. I'm going to recognize Mr. Loney, but then we're going to have to go to other witnesses.
Mr. Loney.
Mr. Loney (Edmonton North): Mr. Chairman, I would just like to ask Mr. Mathieu if he could provide me with a copy of his presentation. I found it to be very interesting.
Mr. Mathieu: Yes.
Mr. Loney: Could you do that please?
Mr. Mathieu: Actually, sir, do you have a binder?
Mr. Loney: Yes, I have. Is it in the binder?
Mr. Mathieu: It's under ``M'', under my name. It's the second document.
Mr. Loney: Very good. I haven't had a chance to look at this yet. Thank you.
Mr. Mathieu: You're welcome.
The Chair: Fine, then we'll move on.
Mr. Ianno.
Mr. Ianno (Trinity - Spadina): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
First of all, I would like to commend Dennis Mills. I know he has put a lot of work into this to create something that I think is a vehicle for Canadians to express their vision and their feelings for Canada.
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I know that many of us, colleagues of yours, are putting it into our householders and asking Canadians to contribute to this. This is along with Canadian Heritage and our committee,Mr. Chairman, which is also doing the same for this building of a vision of a better Canada.
I commend you and your volunteers for putting this package together with the graphics you've presented. I hope more success will come to you and your colleagues on that basis.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
The Chair: Thank you, gentlemen, for coming. I appreciate your contributions. I'm sure we'll hear more from you.
I'd like to call two witnesses now, Claire Baxter and Scott Elliott. I believe these presentations have to do with travel. There's no doubt that a lot of Canadians believe that through exchange programs, twinning and things like that, we can learn more about each other.
Has it been decided which one of you will go first? I think Claire Baxter is going to go first. Claire, we'll hear your presentation, and then we'll hear from Mr. Elliott.
Ms Claire Baxter (Individual Presentation): Thank you. I'd just like, first of all, to thank you for inviting me.
I'm the executive director of the program Forum for Young Canadians. It's nice to see a lot of you here because I recognize a lot of you, of course, from our dinners with MPs and those who have come to talk to the students. It's a real pleasure for me to be here today.
[Translation]
Thank you for your invitation. This is really a great pleasure for me.
[English]
I'm also on the board of directors for Katimavik, the youth program that has just been reinstated. I was asked last week, just before I left for Nova Scotia, to address the committee on what Katimavik meant to me in those years, what the link is to what I'm doing now, what I see for the future with Katimavik, and also to talk about that link with the Forum for Young Canadians a little bit as well.
I've just stepped off the plane back from Nova Scotia, so this is totally ad lib. It's from the heart; it's from the passion.
Ten years ago, when Katimavik was cancelled by the government, I remember I was one of the many people involved in putting together a record, A Song for Katimavik. We were up at Laval University. Within the space of ten days we had the words to the actual text and the record was going across the country coast to coast.
I know that in your riding, Doug Young and Glen Bowser, from Hudson, Quebec, part of the Backroads group, came up on short notice to Quebec City to help do the singing. It was recorded. It was sent to Parliament Hill, and it was part of the demonstration to try to save Katimavik in the final days of the hunger strike.
Very early this morning, about 5 a.m., I was thinking what would I say, because it's so much of a passion. I've seen the youth of this country with Katimavik. I've been in Canada World Youth, Canadian Crossroads International, the National Youth Leadership Council and, of course, more recently, in the last several years, the Forum for Young Canadians.
There is such a passion for youth. Youth need a real direction today. They need something. I was thinking that I had that same wish years ago to describe to people what Katimavik was all about when we had the record. I've got a copy of the song with me. I see we have a cassette machine. If ever there's a break, you're most welcome to listen to it.
What did Katimavik mean? What is it about? It's about young people, aged 17 to 21 years, going to different communities across the country and doing volunteer community service. I remember once, years ago in Manitoba, when we had the students freshly off the plane. They had their bright, shiny look to them. There was still that right-from-home look.
I said it's time to make the beds. I remember one young fellow said that his mother made the beds at home. He wondered whether someone was going to be doing this for them. I said no, you don't get it. Here are your nails, here are your hammers; let's make the beds. It was this whole thing about constructing. Very quickly, people found out that they had to construct. There was someone volunteering from the community to teach these people how to make a bunk bed.
All kinds of skills were learned that people just wouldn't have had a chance to learn otherwise had they not been in that experience.
After we left southern Manitoba, we could not write a letter without saying hello to the postman on the back of the letter, because people became so close and learned so much about the different cultures in all the areas from all over the country. It became something that was quite lingering.
It remained forever with us. Ten years later, we're still having Katimavik reunions down in Nova Scotia. Part of the philosophy with these reunions is that we rent a campground every summer on the ocean, and almost the whole Katimavik group from twenty years ago is there.
The big feeling was that we had to do something for the campground before we left. We stacked all of their wood, because there was a wood shipment that came in for the winter.
.1135
It was part of the philosophy that we still had years later, which was giving to the community and giving to others. It's part of the song: ``I means we; we means you''. You learn about it yourself, then you share it with others. You teach others, and you go on to share this experience.
It did wonders for my French.
[Translation]
I studied at Laval University: a brief six-week course during the summer. Thanks to that and to Gilles Vigneault, whose poetry and music I adore, I began to learn French, slowly at first. As a result of those experiences, I took part in a number of programs such as the Forum for Young Canadians, Katimamik and so on.
[English]
I think it's fundamental. It's a real passion I have. I know so many others feel that people get the chance to travel around the country and to experience different regions and cultures, have this work experience, do things for others, and gain experiences.
At the reunion party last week, on the weekend, someone from Katimavik from many years ago had a dream, which he made come true. He had this idea on the beach two years ago. It was to photograph Nova Scotia from 500 miles high. It was Dennis Robinson from the valley. The whole idea was that he would do it through computer technology.
He wanted to sell this. It's now an actual poster, and it's selling like hot cakes all over Nova Scotia.
This is a dream he had. You had these dreams because you were sort of used to doing them in Katimavik.
Take the song we did years ago in ten days. We had a record going across the country. The song would have cost $17,000; we got it for free, because everyone volunteered and participated.
There were all kinds of experiences. There were students who suddenly discovered healthy eating. We encouraged students not to use sugar, if at all possible. Then they went home and decided to start a health food store. They created their own business. This was many years ago. That was job creation based on their experience with the program, Katimavik.
We had people who have started working with seniors. They decided that this was going to become their career because they were so passionately involved with it. But it's something they never would have experienced if they had not had that opportunity to participate in a program like that.
Take Jane Maduke, from Saskatoon. Many years ago - she was from Saskatchewan - she had never seen the ocean. She chose, as one of her options, to go to Esquimalt in British Columbia and do the military option. She learned all about firefighting and life on the boats, and so on. She loved it so much that her career became the Canadian Coast Guard. I haven't heard from her in over eleven years. I don't know what happened, but I know she left for the Canadian Coast Guard.
All of these stories were because of Katimavik. At Forum for Young Canadians, I know many of you have shared those moments with us either by talking directly to the students on the role of an MP or at the dinner with MPs.
At the end of the week, it's the same experience. There's such pride in being together as a group and knowing that this will happen but once. We have to encourage these young people to have that experience.
At 4 a.m., after Friday night at the Forum sessions, we're there singing This Land is Your Land. I emceed the closing banquet. I'm probably the only one from my vantage point who gets to see the patrons of the NAC looking at us, because the students are looking forward. Instead of having a drink in the middle of The Phantom of the Opera, they're wondering what all this emotion is. Why all the hugs and the tears and the clinging onto each other?
I look at our interpreters over here, and I recognize you all from Forum. I know you always say the same thing: wow, what a passionate group.
What's the magic there? There is a magic.
The deputy minister last year was talking to students on the role of a deputy minister. Later on, he was in a committee meeting. I happened to be on the phone making some last-minute arrangements because we had a room change. I heard him leave with some other committee members. They heard the applause from the Forum students, because they were passionately involved in one of their simulations. Everyone wondered what that group was and what it was about. He said it was the Forum for Young Canadians. He said you want to go listen to them, because they sure do have ideas.
There's just this feeling. There's a magic about all these programs, and one often links to the other. Really, I think that if we had not had those experiences, many of us would not be in the positions we're in today.
You talk about where we can go and how can we partner. I listened to some of the ideas before. Some of the groups like Forum are very little groups. We don't have a lot of people pulling it off, yet we get this wonderful voluntarism from everybody helping us put the program on. I mean everybody.
You were all elected as representatives of your communities. Perhaps it should start with government, but it could link in businesses. I know SHL Systemhouse is a major sponsor of Forum. Perhaps government, through householders, could publicize these programs. Perhaps, through Open House Canada, we could continue to have travel grants to help students get to Ottawa. In our case, the students do fund-raising locally, but perhaps there could be the continuation of support. We don't know yet what our funding will be. It's hard to plan unless you have multi-year funding.
You talk about networking. There are all sorts of things. Industry Canada could perhaps permanently loan, or just loan temporarily, some computers to the Katimavik group so the students could get on the net, because that's effectively what they want to do. Forum plans to get on the net in March, and draw that communication. It is the communication of the whole country.
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What a marvellous thing to be able to experience other cultures. I learned how to make moccasins up in the north. I learned how to canoe from the natives up in Churchill, Manitoba.
I could give you tons of examples of the experiences I've had, and it's because I've had these opportunities across the country in different areas with different programs.
I did my master's at Laval University in relations industrielles, and when I finished I had several job offers. One of them happened to be as executive director of Forum. I thought, wow, I get another gift again handed to me where I get to do something I truly love, and where you're bringing people together.
The Chair: Your enthusiasm for the country is very infectious. I think we'll hear now fromMr. Elliott.
Mr. Scott Elliott (Individual Presentation): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Ladies and gentlemen of the committee, I'm the director of development and communications with a youth organization called Canada World Youth. I also was recently asked to join the board of directors of Katimavik. I'm a member of the board as a past participant and also as somebody from British Columbia who can bring a western perspective.
For myself as well it is indeed a great honour to be here today. It's the first time I've spoken before a committee in Parliament.
The only thing I can really offer is a story about a young Canadian who joined Katimavik. For me it sums up some of the things Katimavik tries to do and tries to give to young Canadians.
I'm from a small town called Port Moody. It's outside Vancouver. It was a small industrial town at that time. It is now a suburb.
I dearly wanted to get out. I wanted to experience Canada. For me Canada was my immediate environment; it was camping in the woods around us. I dropped French in grade 8, thinking that, well, if anyone comes to B.C., they can learn to speak English. That was the attitude there at that time.
Through Katimavik, when I was 18 years old, I had the opportunity to leave my small town. It was 1982. I had the opportunity to see three diverse parts of Canada: London, Ontario; Chambord, Quebec; Lac Saint-Jean; and Fort St. John, northern British Columbia.
During this time I learned how to interact with others. I learned how to be more responsible. I worked in a museum of anthropology
[Translation]
in Lac Saint-Jean. I lived with a family where I learned French. For the first time in my life, it was an experience that I loved. When I had learned French at school, I was obliged to do so. I didn't want to learn it and I thought that someone who came here could learn English. But when I went to Lac Saint-Jean, I saw another reality and I was influenced. Yes, they are quite different from my family and me in their way of doing things, but that was something I wanted to learn.
[English]
It instilled within me a want to learn more about Canada.
From there I went to Fort St. John in northern British Columbia. I worked as a volunteer with an alternative school, a school for youth with emotional and mental difficulties.
Immediately after Katimavik, they hired me. I worked there for a year and a half as a counsellor running a life skills and work experience program. It put me into a whole other realm of experience. I started working in child care.
Through Katimavik, through the people I met in Katimavik, I was able to see different parts of Canada. It was something that when you're living in B.C., in a small town, you cannot understand. How can anyone understand a small town like Lac Saint-Jean if you're from the small town of Port Moody?
With the last referendum and some of the initiatives that were taken - the one day held in Montreal.... I think that's fantastic, but it doesn't give the same learning.
When you're living in a community for three months, when you're living with a family in that community for a few weeks, you learn about it. You have no choice. When you are group-living with ten other young Canadians - some from Quebec, some from the Atlantic, the prairies, the west - you have no choice but to learn.
There are confrontations. It's bringing the Canadian public as youth together to learn about each other, and we have an opportunity to learn, to grow. We have an opportunity to better understand
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[Translation]
what Quebec is and what Ontario is. This is something that a young Canadian can't get anywhere else. Going to university is not the same thing. Just travelling is not the same thing. They're still good things, but they aren't the same experience.
[English]
Through Canadian Heritage a document was put out at the end of last year, called ``A Springboard to Tomorrow''. It's creating youth volunteer programs that encourage the development of skills. It's an excellent document that talks about what voluntarism does for people and, especially in the context of youth, what voluntarism can do for youth.
It's not just a matter of education finishing with school. We're seeing more and more that people need to know more about what Canada is about. They want to find out how other people live, and it's through programs like Katimavik that this can be done.
To finish, I would just like to say that when I was in Katimavik - at the peak of Katimavik in 1986 - there were just over 4,000 participants per year in this program.
Katimavik has been allotted some money for this year. We have 231 participants this year. That's an excellent start, but it's only a start. It's with programs like Katimavik, Canada World Youth, Forum for Young Canadians, programs that bring people together, have them learn together, and have them challenge each other's views.... This is one of the ways we can create a stronger Canada. Whether or not everybody leaves with the same views, they've had the opportunity to come together, to see, to experience, and to really live what it's like in another part of Canada.
That's one thing missing within our society right now. Our country is so huge that we have to find ways not just to superficially tell about Canada, not just to superficially tell about my culture and Port Moody and Vancouver, but to profoundly live it and profoundly experience it. That is what brings change and lifelong learning. Thank you.
The Chair: Thank you.
Our next witnesses are also interested in promoting travel. So we'll bring forward Howard Galganov, who is accompanied by his member of Parliament, Nick Discepola.
Who's going to begin this? Mr. Discepola, are you going to start this by introducing your friend?
[Translation]
Mr. Nick Discepola (Vaudreuil): First, Mr. Chairman, I would like to thank you for affording us the opportunity to testify before your committee. I would like to introduce Mr. Howard Galganov. Howard is one of my constituents who, right after the referendum, took the initiative of doing what he could as a businessman, as a Canadian concerned about the events surrounding the referendum and in particular about the future of our country.
We met a number of times as a result of his initiative, his Canada-wide contacts and his small business. I believe that our affinity stems from the fact that we are both businessmen. Mr. Galganov is accompanied by his wife, Anne Galganov, who works with him in his business. We have discussed various ideas and options that we had as proud Quebeckers and proud Canadians for promoting the two cultures, that of Quebec and the French language.
During the referendum debate, we noticed that the future of our country is up to our young people. However, in a fair number of instances, young people were not involved in the debate. When we talk about cutting the deficit and the future of our country, it is first of all their future that we are talking about. And so we thought that Canadian unity had to come from young people as well. With this idea in mind, we decided to introduce at the last Liberal caucus meeting a student exchange program called "Entre-nous", about which Mr. Galganov will speak to you a little later.
.1150
We are here to present our ideas. I would especially like to thank Howard for his initiative. As you will note, he is a man of action and I hope we'll be able to lead...
I'm going to sum up our thoughts in one word. Before Quebeckers and Canadians decide to separate, we would like each Quebecker to have the opportunity first to visit the rest of Canada and for each Canadian from the West or elsewhere who hopes Quebec will leave has the opportunity to visit Quebec.
It seems essential to us in today's context that before making this kind of decision on the unity of our country, we should take the time to talk to our fellow citizens and find grounds for agreement. Earlier I listened to the Bloc québécois member who said that if there was a deeply rooted will, we could find solutions and an agreement.
We will now give the floor to Mr. Galganov and then you may answer his questions.
[English]
Mr. Howard Galganov (Individual Presentation): Thank you, Nick.
Chairperson, members of the committee, Canada is at a juncture in its history. We in Quebec - especially western Quebec, the Townships and Montreal - are hearing a great deal of serious talk from ordinary citizens concerning the very real prospect of partition. We're hearing of pre-emptive partition regardless of the constitutional debate and any results of any forthcoming referendum. To us this is indeed terrifying.
The people on the federalist side of this argument in Quebec are frightened, with just cause. It appears to many that our politicians are without a strategy and have deserted us and left us to create our own measures, many of which are contrived out of despair.
The perceived federalist leadership void in Quebec is stunning, and unless a realistic defence of Canada is soon forthcoming, the polarization of Quebec society will become an unstoppable and tragic force. The ides of March may very well be upon us.
Canada almost died on October 30. Had the vote gone yes and the autopsy declared, Canada would have said it died of neglect. Until the eleventh hour we the people never made the attempt to save ourselves and country. We left it in trust to the politicians.
Contrary to some public opinion, predominantly within separatist circles, I, along with millions of others, believe that Quebec and Canada were ultimately saved by the people of this country, in spite of our politicians.
The massive downtown Montreal rally, which attracted more than 200,000 people, many of whom came from all corners of Canada, was a momentous event. It demonstrated for the first time that there was not just one side to the debate, and a passion for Canada and Quebec actually exists.
The many other demonstrations throughout Canada, such as those at Queen's Park, Toronto, with 20,000 people; Hull-Ottawa, also with more than 20,000 people; Halifax; Calgary; and Vancouver all prove that there was and continues to be a great urgency, willingness and momentum for a grassroots initiative to take on the separatists in the defence of Canada. This initiative cannot be lost.
In spite of what the separatists say about Canadians outside Quebec becoming involved in what they believe to be exclusively Quebec domestic affairs, we should be asking all of Canada for support. The separatists have already succeeded in making us believe that Quebec is in fact, in many ways, already separate from Canada. It is not.
The separatists talked about a Canadian invasion when describing the mass rally in Montreal. How can Canadians invade Canada? Every Canadian has a vested interest in what happens to Canada, and what happens in Quebec, right here and now, affects all of Canada. Every Canadian has the right to become involved. If Quebec goes, the impact upon the rest of Canada will be catastrophic, and we all have the right to protect our interests, our identity, our future, our nation.
Quebec has not had a federalist option since the early 1960s, if ever there was one. We have had a succession of governments - Quebec Liberal and separatists alike - committed to squeezing Ottawa for as wide-ranging a series of concessions, for more money to more power for the premiers, to less of Canada.
.1155
I do not want to see the fabric of Canada shredded because of greedy provincial premiers and separatist bullies. Canada is a continuing work in progress, and Canadian status quo is not a dirty word.
Changing the constitutional direction of our nation in order to accommodate and appease Quebec nationalist xenophobes is indeed a very dangerous vessel on which to embark. Therefore let us head off the politics of division and capitulation with a national program of inclusion.
As one of three parts of our inclusive objective a group of independent hoteliers in Ontario and the west island of Montreal - representing hotel brands such as Sheraton, Ramada, Holiday Inn and Best Western - has created an incredible opportunity through the PROMAR Media Group, along with the Liberal member of Parliament for Vaudreuil, Nick Discepola, to offer to thousands of young Quebeckers a golden opportunity to experience the other side of Canada through their very own eyes.
We are prepared to send young French Quebeckers on cultural trips throughout English Canada so they can see for themselves that this is truly a majestic land that belongs as much to them as to anyone else. A major part of our objective is to have French Quebec young people meet other Canadian young people, who they will soon enough discover are not that different from themselves.
Our young people are the future of a united Canada, and it is integral that we give them the opportunity to see and experience the truth and splendour of Canada for themselves, up close and personally.
Talk is generally cheap, so what I'm talking about isn't just whimsy. So here are the goods: As I appear before you, we are prepared here and now to accommodate as many as 5,000 escorted young Quebeckers to live the Canadian experience first-hand. This initiative, which is only the first of many, is valued at well over $250,000, all in private funds. All that remains to begin this program is to organize logistics and travel.
We will also reach out to Canadians from coast to coast to join this project and open their homes and schools to young French-speaking Quebeckers who will have a wonderful occasion to actually live with families enjoying a different Canadian culture.
The second part of our objective deals with information. A group of advertising agencies, including creative people, media buyers and owner-managers of electronic and print production facilities, have agreed to launch an advertising initiative in print, radio and television throughout the nationalist regions of Quebec. This initiative will promote the advantages of a multicultural society and how we all benefit. The messages to be conveyed will combat revisionist history used by the separatists and the incredible myth that Quebec must be a separate country for Quebeckers to be equal and a people. This initiative is also being financed exclusively with private funds.
The third part of our initiative is to encourage our federal government to clearly define Canada and to empower Canadians with the right to tell our leadership what we, the people, believe Canada should be in the broadest of contexts.
Should we enjoy a strong Canadian federation with a significant central government, with ten provinces and territories, as we currently have, or should we decentralize Canada to the point of creating regions with regional leaders empowered to create distinct governments within their own jurisdictions, with the central government's role reduced to that of tax collection and arbitrator between regional leaders? Let us find out from the people.
I propose a national referendum that will ask all the people of Canada to define who we are, or who we wish to be. A clear national answer will empower our federal government to negotiate with all the provinces from a position of strength, or begin the process of the decentralization of Canada.
These initiatives are created through a newly formed corporation known as the Quebec Political Action Committee. As a group we are turning to business entrepreneurs and individuals throughout Canada for support of all kinds.
This fight to save a nation, our nation, is very much real and very much engaged. Nothing short of peaceful dialogue and conciliation among the people, above the rhetoric of reactionary politicians, will help save the day.
Thank you for inviting me, and thank you for listening to what I have to say.
The Chair: Thank you very much. You have to leave, Mr. Loney.
I think Madam Tremblay has a question for either group, by the way.
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[Translation]
Ms Tremblay: I don't think La Palice could have spoken truer words than some of our guests here today. Travel undeniably shapes young people. Everyone will agree to that. A group of young people get together somewhere, Vancouver, Chicoutimi or Timbuktu: when you're together, you have fun, you form relationships, you spend nights rebuilding the world, talking and discussing. Then you go home and you have wonderful memories of this kind of event. That can't be denied.
It's by talking that we can understand one another. It isn't by insulting or denying, but by talking that we understand one another. Once we understand one another, we respect one another. Everyone agrees on that.
Here's what I see in your testimony. First, Mr. Discepola, you have brought along one of your constituents because he has a magnificent business plan that he could forward to Heritage Canada in an effort to make money, if he wishes. The gentleman is first of all interested in making money. That much is clear from his brief.
As regards exchanges, you know there is an intercultural group in Quebec. Young people from Quebec travel to Chili, Argentina, Africa, Holland, to any country in the world, and there are young people who come from those countries to live in Quebec. They spend a year there. The exchange lasts one year. Some of them went to Russia. There was a Russian who came to live in Rimouski while a Quebecker from Rimouski went to Russia. There are exchanges like these.
Personally, I worked in teacher training for 35 years. For the past 20 years, we have provided the Canadian West with trained preschool and primary teachers for immersion classes, which have undergone considerable expansion. We have a few young people who got married and stayed there. Some tried to return to Quebec. As they could not return to their old lives, they went back out West. But most of those who came back from the Canadian West are very pleased to have gone there.
I wonder how it is that no company, as during the time of the Rhinoceros Party - it's true we may have lost a little of our imagination - has thought of making a reproduction of the Rocky Mountains or Niagara Falls or some other point of interest that would be famous in the east of the country. Perhaps we should find something in Newfoundland because I'm not familiar enough with Newfoundland to know. We could distribute it to all Quebeckers to teach them to love Canada. It might cost less than all the proposals we have here.
When you go out West, you learn, among other things, that Canada is bilingual, but the two languages involved are English and Chinese. Two years ago, when I went out West and crossed the Rocky Mountains coming back toward the East, the first time a saw a single word of French was in Lake Louise. The word "Open" had been translated by "Ouvert".
I approve of what I see in your proposals. Your remarks are impassioned and very beautiful. I could make similar remarks based on my youthful experiences if I told them to you.
But what I see in your proposals is more an opportunity to make more money because you sense that Canada is seized by panic. You've just woken up and realized that 49.6 per cent of Quebeckers, including 60 per cent of the province's Francophones, want to separate. Bravo!
All your investment to show us Canada as it really is will enable us to understand each other better as neighbours, but it will also enable us to increase the number of votes so that we can at last reach 50 per cent. I have absolutely nothing against youth exchange programs because young people in Quebec - and this was very encouraging for Quebec sovereignty - the generation that we thought was so indifferent, proved to be 75 per cent in favour of the Yes. With each group of votes that is added... Next year, there will be 75,000 or 100,000 more individuals in favour of sovereignty because there are about 100,000 children born each year.
The Forum for Young Canadians, Katimavik and so on are all well and good, but why are Quebeckers are still sovereigntist when all this money has been spent. Quebeckers are not at all xenophobic, notwithstanding what the gentleman has said. Quebeckers travel a great deal. They are very open. There are many tourists who come from all the countries of the world. I don't understand how you can think that, if we suddenly increase travel budgets, Quebeckers will be more federalist.
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Quebeckers will learn to love Canada the day Canada respects Quebeckers, the day it understands that Quebeckers exist and doesn't do what the gentleman says and deny the existence of Quebeckers and call us xenophobic. It's not by insulting us that we're going to understand each other. It is by talking and trying to see that we exist alongside each other. He has just spoken his language and I understood him. No problem, but you must understand the feelings that move us.
We've been telling you what Quebec wants for 30 years. You have denied it the whole time. How do you think that travel will shape young people? Well, for sovereignty!
[English]
The Chair: Thank you, Madam Tremblay. I think if we're going to have an understanding, we have to have talk that goes both ways.
[Translation]
Ms Tremblay: Yes, but they spoke a lot longer than I did.
[English]
The Chair: We're going to have to go to other witnesses, but Mr. Elliott wanted to say something.
Mr. Elliott: One thing with Katimavik is that we don't see it as a program just to travel. It is a learning experience. It is an educational program where for nine months people learn to interact, to discuss, to challenge each other's views, and learn to accept those as well.
One of the very interesting things about Katimavik is that not only do young Québécois get to see other parts of Canada and appreciate other parts of Canada, but Canadians from other provinces get to see and appreciate parts of Quebec. It builds tolerance and more acceptance.
For example, when I was younger I could not understand sovereignty or separatism at all. It didn't make any sense to me. Now I can understand it. I may have different views - and that's okay - but I can discuss. I have the ability now to understand.
It's through that type of learning, through lifelong learning and building the capacity for young people, not just to travel, but to analyse, to critically think, to look at a situation and then deal with it.... That is the type of learning opportunity Katimavik is offering, and that is the type of experience we are promoting.
The Chair: Mr. Peric, do you have a question?
Mr. Peric (Cambridge): I don't have a question. I want to express my opinion on Madame Tremblay's observation.
Mrs. Tremblay, if we don't know each other and if we're not willing to learn about each other, then, of course, we're going to face difficult times.
Since Canada is a huge country, I believe this is a perfect example of how Canadians can get to know each other, to share culture, and even to get to know the mentality of different parts of Canada.
Madame Tremblay, I don't believe that by giving this recognition to French people in Canada, trees in British Columbia will grow differently, or that the current of the St. Lawrence will go the opposite way - absolutely not.
If we just open our hearts and work together, I believe - and I'm very optimistic - that we can build together a stronger and better Canada.
But just open up your heart. Let's do it.
The Chair: Thank you, Mr. Peric. We should try to avoid debating each other at this meeting. It's better to try to engage the witnesses.
Claire Baxter wanted to say something.
Ms Baxter: I can speak more directly on Forum for Young Canadians and Katimavik, but I'd just like to add that a lot of these programs are actually non-partisan. The beauty of the program is that that's not the goal, to study one partisanship. It's to learn about all of it, how government works.
I've had the really nice opportunity actually to learn a lot about the Bloc. I know Mr. Bouchard took some time with the students last year. He spent a good time - like an hour, which is a lot for him - with our students in explaining....
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It was a really nice afternoon, and we're very grateful that he was able to do it. I know our Bloc members at the MPs' dinners were among the first to race up to me and say, who's the director of the program, and, listen, I'd love to speak on the role of the MP, and can I help out in any kind of way, along with everybody. It was just really nice. It's about learning about the Bloc, because the opinions differ.
I don't want to get into partisanship because it's not what it's about; it's the learning experience, learning how government works, and that includes the Bloc. That's the Forum.
For Katimavik, it goes way beyond...it's a by-product. The travelling and the friendships...these are friendships for life; they really are deep. But it goes way beyond that. It's the skills you learn. I can honestly say that I'm doing what I'm doing today because of the experiences I had in Katimavik.
I think the confidence you develop, both in terms of communication and human resource management, etc.... Travelling just happened to be a part of the by-product. So were the friendships, and, boy, I treasure those friendships.
To give you just a quick example, we had Étienne Camirand last year. He's from Quebec, the nicest guy you're ever going to meet. Actually it was one of the MPs we wrote to...because we needed some students. We were trying to do our recruitment, and so on. We decided, well, we'll open another way of communication through the MPs and through letters and so on, so we got Étienne Camirand.
Étienne is just a fantastic guy. He's been travelling and living with this fellow visiting.... There are about twelve of them who have visited from Forum last summer. They sent me pictures and I received all kinds of letters and phone calls.
He's staying with Brian Martin from Toronto who doesn't speak very much French, and never thought he'd be spending any time in Quebec because he just didn't have that experience yet. Étienne didn't think he'd be spending time in Toronto, and they've been visiting back and forth and spending time with each other's families.
Étienne wanted to become one of our staff assistants at Forum. You can come back as a staff assistant and help put on the program. He was dying to promote Forum to the students in his area in Quebec. He has all the brochures, and he's been making visits for us.
Unfortunately - because he'd be great and it will be next year instead of this coming year - he wanted to be a staff assistant, but he couldn't because he realized he was working on the Yes campaign, putting his heart and soul into the Yes campaign. So he couldn't afford the time because he realized he was losing too much time with his studies.
But all of this is to say that you come to that kind of a program or any of these programs to learn what the program is about. It's not about partisanship. Étienne went away still feeling very proud to be a Quebecker in his way of thinking about pride in Quebec - we all have different opinions. He was still participating with the Yes campaign, but he still wanted to become a part of Forum in a different way and help others participate in the program.
I think that's what we're saying; that's what it's all about. It's not just travel.
The Chair: Thank you.
Mr. Galganov, you're trying to involve, or are involving, private companies in your project. Do you think we should try to engage private companies more in these kinds of projects to contribute to national unity, that we just can't leave it all to government, because government just can't do it all?
Mr. Galganov: We have, all of us, so much to lose, whether you're an individual or a corporation. The corporate structure has a great deal invested in the continuity of Canada.
I'd like to make a point though to Madame Tremblay. I didn't come here to debate with you. However, the distortion or the impression you leave that we're making a profit on this is inaccurate, at best.
This is entirely altruistic. It's entirely funded by individuals who are taking money out of their pockets. No one here is making a profit.
It was made very clear to Nick Discepola that this is an initiative outside of government. We have not asked for a penny from government. We are not looking for a penny from government. If government wishes to become involved with this, then they can do as they wish. However, this initiative is strictly grassroots. It's strictly corporate Canada. It's strictly people who have a vested interest.
We have $250,000 set aside in hotel travel today. Within 30 days that $250,000 is going to represent over $5 million. Within 6 months - by early spring or late summer - we'll be able to introduce as many as 30,000 to 50,000 young French Quebeckers to the other side of Canada, the side of Canada that is kept from them by their politicians, by many of their teachers and by the rhetoric they hear on their local television and see in their local newspapers.
The marketing initiative -
[Translation]
Ms Tremblay: Those are very serious accusations. That is entirely false and you know it perfectly well. Those are very serious accusations that you have just made with regard to Quebec's education system, the public and private television system in Quebec, radio and teachers. They are very, very serious accusations.
[English]
The Chair: I'm not going to go along with this debate. I'll give you the final word and that's it.
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Mr. Galganov: I'm not the person to try to intimidate. I live in Quebec; I live amongst French Canadian people; I live in a French community.
I have taken my neighbours' children to Ottawa so they can see Ottawa for the first time. We live an hour and a half from the city, yet they've never, ever been brought to see what Canada really represents, and when they come here, they can't believe what they see. Fortunately for you, you can.
We want to give that same opportunity to everyone else, and perhaps when they see Canada through a different set of eyes, instead of the filtered eyes they've been living with from the time they're born to the last 30 years -
[Translation]
Ms Tremblay: Withdraw your accusations, sir. What you are saying is false. Children from Quebec schools come to Ottawa. You need only be here in May and June to see lots of Francophones coming here to visit Parliament. Entire schools! I'm asking you to stop your accusations.
[English]
Mr. Chair: I think we've heard enough on this point. Mrs. Gaffney wanted to say something. Then we'll let these witnesses go and invite our last two.
Mrs. Gaffney (Nepean): I would like to thank you for coming. The presentation you've made has really impressed me.
Mr. Galganov, you talk about taking youth outside of Quebec and into the rest of Canada somewhere, and you talk about the incredible untruths spread through Quebec through the revisionist stories. I agree with both of those things.
But, you know, you want to promote the advantages of a multicultural society. We hear a lot about Canada's multiculturalism policy. Is it doing a good job, or is it creating problems within our country?
We've become very much a ``me'' society. We're very selfish all of a sudden. I congratulate you that you are so unselfish in your approach to what you wish to do for your province.
Quebec within itself is very, very divided. If the separatists should ever win in Quebec, they're going to end up with a Quebec that is not just one province, but many tiny, little provinces within the province of Quebec, very, very divided within the province.
So I see an even greater problem within Quebec than exists outside of Quebec. I don't know how this can be resolved.
I'd like you to comment on the multiculturalism aspect, on what we have done. Is it time we reviewed our multiculturalism policy within this country?
Mr. Galganov: I think it's time that we start to enhance our multiculturalism policy in this country. Canada is so much different from other countries, and especially different from our neighbours to the south. We celebrate our differences, and because of our differences we find it's much easier and better to live together.
When you look at Quebec, you have to look, of course, at regions of Quebec. Montreal itself is nothing whatsoever like the Lac Saint-Jean area, for example. Montreal is a very multicultural city. It's a city where everybody celebrates their sameness and their differences. It's a city where Yes supporters can sit side by side with No supporters and have perhaps a far more ideological debate than someone who is coming from an area where there's no outside cultural differences.
I think it's incumbent upon Canada to start to extol the virtues of our differences.
The Chair: Thank you.
We're really running out of time. I don't know about you, but I prefer the word ``diversity'' over ``differences''.
Mr. Discepola, I'll give you just a few seconds to finish this off.
Mr. Discepola: Thank you, Chair.
I would like to use Madame Tremblay's own words. In her opening remarks she said that
[Translation]
by speaking to each other, we understand each other, and when we understand each other, we learn to respect each other.
[English]
That is the program Mr. Galganov is trying to put forth. That is what, through my initiative and his assistance, we are trying to put forth. We're trying to get Canadians and Quebeckers to understand each other and respect each other more. We're not trying to brainwash them. We're not trying to get them to convert to federalists or separatists. Understanding each other is our main goal.
The Chair: Thank you very much.
We're now going to invite our last two witnesses, Yvon Valcin and Calvin Preddie - they're not here together - to come forward, please. They're here to talk about two different ideas.
I think I'll ask Mr. Valcin to speak to his idea.
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Mr. Valcin, if you could sum up your project in about five minutes, we'll turn to Mr. Preddie and then we'll come to questions.
[Translation]
Mr. Yvon Valcin (testifying as an individual): Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, what I am presenting to you this morning represents nearly three years of research. I should say three years of sleepless nights, frustration and, at times, success in promoting a very simple idea which consists in declaring and proclaiming Ottawa-Hull as the binational capital of Canada, which would make this new capital a permanent tool for the promotion of national unity.
[English]
In fact, in this sense, my concept pertains to making the capital a marketing vector to promote national unity and bolster Canadian identity by designating Ottawa-Hull officially - I insist upon officially - a bi-urban and bi-national capital of Canada, therefore including Quebec and French Canada as a whole in the very symbolics of this very important federal institution.
Actually, I think it will be a good way, a very simple, very concrete, effective and inexpensive way to give Quebec some recognition as a distinct society through Ottawa-Hull, and in this sense, my concept is in the wake of the Prime Minister's resolution voted by Parliament last night.
My proposition will also be an outstanding occasion offered to English Canada to shout loudly or silently to the skies, as they did in the last rally in Montreal, ``We love you Quebec; let's stay together forever''. Or again, ``My Canada includes Quebec, so I don't see why the capital of my Canada could not include Hull''.
I would like to review briefly with you some of the main features of this bi-national capital concept, insisting particularly on two.
[Translation]
First, the most significant aspect of this concept would be to make the Prime Minister of Canada - I mean the position, not the person, whether the Prime Minister be Mr. Chrétien or anyone else - the de facto mayor of Ottawa-Hull. This would be one way of incorporating the highest political position in this country in this new capital and of associating that highest political position in the country with Canada's binational character in a concrete way.
[English]
Perfectly in line with the geophysical, geopolitical, geo-economic, and socio-human reality of the national capital area, this concept is intrinsically equipped with the necessary flexibility and adaptability to any type of relationship between Quebec and the rest of Canada. This concept, by the way, is unassailable in all respects, even and foremost in the event of a sovereign Quebec, unless we want to ``Bosnia-ize'' the capital area and Canada as a whole.
I should insist on the fact that separation of Quebec is not my first option, Mr. Chairman, except that I cannot wash it aside after what we have experienced in the never-to-be-forgotten referendum last October 30.
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So even in the eventuality of separation of Quebec, I think Ottawa-Hull could become a buffer zone between the two new countries. This is not my choice, but once again, we should think about it, because I think Canada will definitely go through another referendum.
[Translation]
I would like to close by proposing what I call a toast to the new binational capital of Canada. I thought of it first in English. That English version would be the official version.
[English]
So I should recite it:
If I had appeared before Beaudoin-Dobbie
To etch and sketch a soul for Canada to be,
To give a blunt opinion in straight fairness,
To promote and improve English-French togetherness,
Reshuffling the cards for a brand-new agenda,
In such a way to meet the true meaning of Canada,
With no Doo-bee-doo-doo-bee on any worn-out theme,
I would put forward this crystal sterling scheme
As the very core of my whole proposition:
Ottawa-Hull, from now on, Capital of the nation!
Careful, now! I don't mean a northern Washington, D.C.
But simply recognizing an obvious blatancy.
This might push and inch forward Canadian unity
While leaving intact each city's personality.
A bi-city capital for a bi-cultural State!
Surprising it hasn't been implemented to date.
In a Canada where culture expresses loyalty and respect
The capital must also reflect the French aspect.
Every one would be postured in this capital dance,
Or should leave it with no further inelegance,
Thereby deciding in the open, for truth's sake,
No togetherness possible in which to partake
While displaying unreadiness to accept Confederation
As a deal crafted out between two - and I insist upon
the two - not one nation....
I thank you for your attention, Mr. Chairman and hon. members.
The Chair: Thank you, sir. Now we're going to turn to Mr. Preddie.
I think, Mr. Preddie, you have actually more than one idea.
Mr. Calvin Preddie (Individual presentation): Actually, there are two things I'm working on. One is the Canadian unity T-shirt, which I guess will be displayed right now.
It's largely because I see the issues in Canada as going way beyond the ideas of Quebec-Canada. Unity in Canada does not depend solely on a vote by Quebec to stay in Canada. There are a lot more things we would have to deal with if we're going to have a united country.
As different from travelling to other countries, with my project you can stay at home and still preach about the rest of Canada, or as you visit different parts of Canada if you're wearing this unity T-shirt.
There's a very special design on the front of the T-shirt, a design that recognizes both French and English, as well as our native heritage. It really depicts the entire nation. There are three circles: one circle represents the French heritage; one, the English; and one, the native heritage. There are three languages on the front: a native language; the French language; and the English language.
My belief is that if we're going to become united in Canada, we must first know a bit about Canada. I think it's going to start with knowing all heraldic symbols. This is why in the design you will see, I have received permission from the federal government, and every province, including Quebec, to utilize those heraldic symbols. That's one part of my effort.
The other part is the use of a Canadian unity song, and I think I would like to play this for you. The only thing is, I must apologize for the French language at the start of the song. These are English-speaking people who are trying to sing in French. We felt that we could not have a Canadian unity song without addressing the francophones in our midst as well.
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In a general sense, I would like to say that Canada is much more than Quebec and this so-called mythical rest of Canada, which does not exist. In my view, there is but one Canada, of which Quebec is a part.
We should be talking about the synergy between Quebec and Canada. We are greater than the sum of our parts, and that is what I think we should propose to Quebec.
Perhaps you can start the song now, and if I get a few minutes with questions, I can say a bit more.
[Audio presentation]
Mr. Preddie: I regret that we don't have enough time for me to give the entire presentation I had, because one of the things I thought we should point out is that in terms of things like unity, attributes such as love, tolerance, acceptance, are not things you can legislate. Those go way beyond the powers of government. Those are things that stem from and grow out of the hearts and minds of people. Our being here today suggests to me that the government is recognizing this, and I'm very happy to be here, to be part of this.
There are things that government must do to set the climate for unity to occur, and maybe at some other point in time I will be able to talk about some of those things with you.
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The Chair: I want to thank you for coming.
I have been to our national celebrations here in Ottawa on July 1, and at those celebrations we've heard stirring singers and stirring music. It really makes you feel proud as a Canadian, and I've often thought we should somehow capture that moment, that occasion, and share it with other Canadians at other events, whether it's at a community club, or an arena, or in a church basement. You can really feel strongly about your country when you share in some of the patriotic songs that are sung.
Mr. Preddie: I do have copies of my presentation in English, of what I had intended to give. I would be happy to pass them out. I finished it only on Monday, so I do not have a French translation. But I would be happy to pass out the English version of the presentation I had hoped to give today.
The Chair: Thank you.
Does anybody have any questions? If not, we'll go to Madame Tremblay.
[Translation]
Ms Tremblay: I very much like the music you played for us. It is of high quality. I saw that you had thought a great deal about the Canadian Constitution. In your opinion, is it so impossible to grant Quebec what it has been claiming for 30 years so that we can have peace instead of being stuck at the dead end we now find ourselves in?
There have been a number of occasions when Canada could have moved to respond to Quebec's aspirations. Why do you think that didn't happen and why do you think now that if it didn't happen through negotiations, it could work by means of a T-shirt and a song? We have trouble reconciling all that.
[English]
Mr. Preddie: As I have said, I think things like love, understanding, peace, and unity are things beyond politics. However, as you talked about how I felt about what's happening with Quebec, quite frankly, I do not believe Quebec is going to be different or distinct because the government says so. Quebec either is -
Mrs. Tremblay: It already is.
Mr. Preddie: - or is not distinct. I doubt there's a Canadian anywhere who does not know that Quebec is different, that there is some distinctiveness to Quebec.
I do not think that is the problem. We should address the real problem. The real problem is, what advantages should Quebec receive because of this difference or this distinctiveness?
When you talk about what happened in the past and why it couldn't have happened, I look back at...they made a complaint about Mr. Chrétien and Mr. Trudeau having deceived Mr. Lévesque in some sort.... But if you look back in history, you'll see exactly what happened and how Quebec lost its veto, how they lost out.
It was the question put to the Supreme Court by the Province of Quebec that caused it. If you go back to the Supreme Court decision, you will read that they paid particular attention to the question from Quebec, which they interpreted to be suggesting that unanimity was not a requirement.
So by the time the Constitution was repatriated without provincial Quebec signing on - because federal Quebec did sign on - the veto was already lost, and that is what changed everything with regard to the relationship between Canada and Quebec.
There are things Quebec needs, and I'm sure there's some accommodation that can be worked out. But times have changed. There was a time in the past when on all the arguments that Quebec is making now, if they were made 50 or 60 years ago, I would have said definitely, yes; we should do it. But the world is changing, and in terms of how we relate to each other, I think all over the world you see these changes where there's more togetherness.
I won't argue that Quebec is wrong in terms of some form of sovereignty association. Maybe that's the same for all of the provinces. The only difficulty I have is the reason for it. I think it should be done on the basis of good government, of our improving the quality of life, rather than purely on the basis of language and culture.
The Chair: Mr. Preddie, history is always interesting, and especially our Canadian history. I think this kind of debate is getting a little off our terms of reference.
We're looking at concrete ways of celebrating Canada and learning more about each other. I don't in any way want to denigrate those thoughts, because they are valid in the large debate that we have in this country. But we're trying to look at some of these concrete means.
Mrs. Gaffney, and then we'll wrap it up.
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Mrs. Gaffney: I want to go back to Mr. Valcin, in regard to Ottawa-Hull becoming the nation's capital. It's something that has been bandied around for a good many years, and I think you know that making this the nation's capital is something the previous chair of the Ottawa-Carleton region, Andy Haydon, strongly believed in.
We already include Hull in what we call the national capital region. We already include Hull in many of our focal points, in our business community - the business community worked together with the Hull business community. So Hull already is very much a part of our nation's capital, even though it's not there in the official form. We include it and they include us, so it's something that is happening today.
But you say you want it different from what the Washington precinct is -
Mr. Valcin: Definitely.
Mrs. Gaffney: - that it should not be -
Mr. Valcin: A federal district.
Mrs. Gaffney: Yet you want the Prime Minister to be not only the Prime Minister but also the mayor.
Mr. Valcin: Yes.
Mrs. Gaffney: I find that difficult to understand. Washington, I know, has a mayor.
Mr. Valcin: Yes.
Mrs. Gaffney: I don't understand how the Prime Minister could do this.
Mr. Valcin: First of all, I don't want Ottawa-Hull to be a federal district like Washington, D.C.
In fact, both cities will keep their own personality and their own municipal council. They will accept that the City of Hull will be the French component of this new bi-national capital and Ottawa will be the English component. This is simply to send a very powerful message to Quebeckers in the sense that we love Quebec to such a point that we include one of its cities as an element, representing French Canada as a whole in the very symbolics of this capital. The Prime Minister, with the highest political function in this country...I think it will be a good thing that this political function be strongly and intimately associated with the mayor of Hull.
Once again, to accept the bi-nationality of this country, I cannot conceive of Canada as a one-nation concept. This is the reason why there is no contradiction between the fact that I want the Prime Minister to be the de facto mayor of Ottawa-Hull, but at the same time I don't want Ottawa-Hull to be a federal district, because to have a federal district will suppose land transfer or cession of territory from Quebec and Ontario to the federal government to make this federal district. This will imply change in the boundaries of Ontario and Quebec, meaning again constitutional intervention, which is a kind of swamp I don't think Canadians are really interested in wading into, actually.
The Chair: Thank you very much. I think we're out of time.
Thank you, Mr. Preddie. Thank you, Mr. Valcin.
I want to remind especially those people in the television audience that if they have ideas to contribute relative to national unity, I invite them to send their ideas by fax or letter to the clerk of our committee, the Canadian heritage committee of the House of Commons. It's the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage, House of Commons, here in Ottawa. The postal code is K1A 0A6.
I want to thank all our witnesses. This is the end of this meeting. Thank you.