[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]
Wednesday, June 14, 1995
.1535 
[English]
The Chairman: Good afternoon. Welcome to our subcommittee on native education. You're probably aware of how this works. You start off with brief statements and then we go to questions from members on both sides.
What I would like to do is maybe just start off by having each and every one of you introduce yourself for the record.
Chief Jerry Peltier (Council of Chiefs, First Nations Education Council): My name is Jerry Peltier. I'm the Grand Chief for the Mohawk Council of Kanesatake in the Mohawk Nation territory.
[Translation]
Mr. Gilbert Whiteduck (Education Director, Algonquin Community of Kitigan Zibi): My name is Gilbert Whiteduck. I am from the Algonquin Community of Kitigan Zibi. I am the Education Director.
[English]
Mr. Wayne Odjick (Chairperson, First Nations Education Council, Kitigan Zibi Anishnabeg First Nation): I'm Wayne Odjick from the Education Council.
[Translation]
Ms Lise Bastien (Director, First Nations Education Council, Huron-Wendat Nation): Lise Bastien, Director, First Nations Education Council, from the Huron-Wendat Nation.
Mr. Roger Vincent (Director of Education, Huron-Wendat Nation Council): Roger Vincent, Director of Education, Huron-Wendat National Council.
[English]
Mr. Mike Diabo (Community Representative for Kahnawake, First Nations Education Council): I'm Mike Diabo, education director for Kahnawake.
The Chairman: Who would like to start off?
Chief Peltier: I would, Mr. Chairman and members of the subcommittee, and thank you. As I said, I'm the Grand Chief for the Mohawk community of Kanesatake. I'm also chairman of the chiefs committee on the First Nations Education Council for the first nations of Quebec.
There are other members who are working with me on the chiefs committee. Lise can explain the structure of our committee when she makes her opening address.
I don't want my words to be interpreted as being in any way offensive or to create any ill feelings between us. I wish I could say we were pleased to be here today, but unfortunately we're not in a position to make those kinds of comments. We are forced to appear before you today.
We have reviewed the terms of reference of the subcommittee. We also have grave concerns that this subcommittee was created without the proper consultation promised by the Prime Minister and the Government of Canada in the red book.
I don't have to repeat and remind all members that the Prime Minister's commitment in the red book about a renewed partnership is very clear.
- A Liberal government will develop a more comprehensive process for consultation between
federal ministers and Aboriginal representatives with respect to decision-making that directly
affects First Nations, Inuit, and Métis peoples.
- That's from page 98 of the red book.
Education for us is a very important right, and I want to stress that. It is not a benefit that derives from the Indian Act. It is not a benefit that is given to us through any former piece of legislation. We look at education as an aboriginal right guaranteed and affirmed in our treaties between our governments and your governments.
.1540
When the Liberal government took office, they promised us, they promised the Canadian people, many commitments to fulfil, especially in the area of education. They made a commitment that the cap on post-secondary education would be removed. It's still a commitment. From our perspective, it has not been removed.
A commitment was also made in the area of education that policies affecting our communities, that education, was a priority for this government. We were hoping we would be involved whenever changes were going to be made in the delivery mechanisms of these services. We have not been.
We're also here because there's a growing concern that the review of this committee is withholding implementation, financial delivery mechanisms, for our communities. Any time the government sets up a committee, the bureaucrats in various ministries find an excuse not to be creative. They've always said ``We'll wait until the committee comes out with its report''.
We're also very concerned that the Minister for Indian and Northern Affairs Canada, Mr. Ron Irwin, was going around the country saying he's having full consultation with the aboriginal leadership to consult on the implementation of the inherent right of self-government. It's no secret that a document is floating around in aboriginal communities, whether it was deliberately leaked or not. I've had an opportunity to review some of the contents of that document.
For the record, we have not been consulted on the development of that document on the inherent right of self-government. If the federal government is going to introduce that document to cabinet for cabinet approval within the next few days, they will be doing it without our consent.
In the document, we're led to believe in order to implement the inherent right we must harmonize the delivery mechanisms and delivery systems in such areas as education with the Province of Quebec or the provinces. That is unacceptable.
We're also led to believe there must be some cost-sharing responsibility among aboriginal people, first nations, the provinces, and the federal government. That too is unacceptable.
Canada has a legal fiduciary obligation to Indians and lands reserved for Indians. Education as an aboriginal right still rests with the Crown. Any agreements affecting the delivery of Indian control of education and its jurisdiction must be discussed and negotiated directly with the Canadian government on a government to government basis.
.1545
I don't want to continue very long in introducing some of our concerns. They will be spelled out by the members of the First Nations Education Council. We are prepared to answer questions. We don't have a formal written presentation we'll be reading from.
We're here to assist this committee so that our concerns and issues will be taken into consideration in whatever administrative arrangements you want to make and in recommendations that are given to the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development and to the Canadian government.
With that, Mr. Chairman, I just want to put you and the Canadian government on notice that we are here because we have grave concerns about what the Canadian government is doing unilaterally in putting together position papers that will have lasting effects in our communities.
In closing, Mr. Chairman, I want to remind you that aboriginal languages are disappearing at a rapid rate in our communities. We have to preserve them. We will preserve them.
I want to congratulate Jack Anawak for using his aboriginal language in the House of Commons to prove to both Canadian society and the international community that there are other official languages in what is called Canada.
Niawen kowa.
The Chairman: Thank you very much, Chief Peltier.
[Translation]
Ms Bastien: I am going to explain the nature of the First Nations Education Council to you. It is an organization representing 20 Quebec communities in the area of education. These 20 communities are made up of Abenaquis, Attikameks, Montagnais, Micmacs, Mohawks and Huron-Wendats.
The Education Council represents very diverse communities. It is comprised of urban and rural communities, small ones and larger ones, with different languages. We receive our mandates directly from the General Assembly, which is made up of education representatives and chiefs. I can say that we are a very community-oriented organization, even though we tend to consider ourselves as a regional or provincial organization. We prefer to say that we are a First Nations communities organization.
Our main mandate is to assist the communities in the area of education. It is a very broad one. Today, since our time is limited, we will present a few of our concerns. Of course, these concerns are part of a whole. It is rather difficult to separate one issue from the others, because one issue affects all the other education issues.
As Grand Chief Peltier said, we do not have a formal written presentation to give you. However, within the next few days, we will probably have a paper to submit.
We felt it was useless to present some exhaustive written document. What we will say today has been said repeatedly in many other interventions over the years.
.1550
There have been some developments at the community level, but the concerns remain the same with regard to relations between the First Nations and governments.
We have devoted a great deal of effort to the issue of special education for disabled children who have learning difficulties or abilities that require special training. As you know, there is no policy on special education. All international educational systems have a component for special education. A special policy is set, alongside the policy that ensures funding of regular services, and people recognize the right of different children to receive different care.
That is the basis of our demand. There are children with special needs in our communities, just as there are everywhere else. At present, there is no national policy, nor is there any funding, for these children. As a result, we have to take the money we need to offer very expensive services out of our own regular funding. You know that specialized institutions are very expensive.
What's even worse is that often we have to take our children out of the community and send them to the closest city. For instance, if I lived in Abitibi, I would have to send my child to a special institution in Montreal. Then the government would pay. If we decide to offer these services in the community, the government doesn't pay. It's very tough. I'm sure you'll understand that it breaks your heart to have to leave your child in an institution, to have no choice but to abandon him there. The situation is alarming.
We have great hopes for a task force comprised of representatives from the Department of Indian Affairs, and we are trying to convince them that it is very important to implement such a policy. We are suggesting a three-year pilot project, and then after that, once the results have been analyzed, it could become a national policy.
I could go on at great length about special education because it's a very important topic. The figures are alarming. We are basing our demands on the right of children to receive services that are suitable for them. As adults, we can't just say that there's no money and discriminate against these children, refusing to provide appropriate services, because they are disabled.
There's also the entire issue of the funding formula that was developed a few years ago at the regional office. This formula covers all the regular services. At first, this formula was not developed in accordance with our needs, but rather, with the funding that was available. We had to allocate this funding according to the number of students. This way of calculating for the provision of educational services in the communities threatens the quality of these services. Usually people define the needs, cost them out, and announce that the bill at the end of the year will be such an amount. People shouldn't just take the funding, divide it by the number of children and have to do the best they can with that.
So there are lots of problems with the funding formula, and as Mr. Peltier was saying, it doesn't leave any room for language development, curriculum development and educational research in our schools. This funding formula has many shortcomings. When it comes to special education, we're told that there's no policy as such, and that we have to find the money within the current funding, which already isn't enough.
.1555
Today we would like to report on another issue that we have been working on. This is the issue of school bus safety, which has been of concern to Canadians over the past few years. Of course, this issue has concerned us as well. We have done a great deal of work to improve school bus safety, but, once again, there is no policy on funding these programs. During our discussions with the communities, and in the work that we did locally, it emerged that adult patrollers should be on board school buses in our communities. In 1993, a resolution was passed in support of this recommendation. Unfortunately, we have not received a response to our demand, even though the Chiefs have endorsed it.
Now let's move on to construction standards. These standards define the space that we can use. When schools are built, the space is defined according to certain standards. They are very technical, very complicated. You have to be an engineer to understand them. However, you don't have to be an engineer to understand that the buildings we currently have are clearly insufficient to provide services, as we see them, in our communities. There is absolutely no way for us to have a language lab or a computer lab. The school libraries as also separate. With the current standards, we always have to make choices, and in the final analysis, this problem greatly diminishes the quality of services provided. Consequently, we recommend that the standards be revised so as to take into account the educational needs of the communities.
Now I would like to turn to the transfer of funding for post-secondary education. I do not want to spend too much time on this particular issue. There was a rumour that post-secondary programs would be transferred to the provinces. The situation has become alarming. There has been talk of secret documents circulating freely. I would like to reiterate that we are strongly opposed to such a transfer. Our dealings with the provinces with respect to education are somewhat stormy, and we can't see the post-secondary education program being administered by the provinces. There's just no way.
To conclude, I'd like to speak briefly about post-secondary education and technical occupation courses. Earlier we mentioned that the post-secondary education policy is to provide assistance to students who are continuing their education. That was just fine, and the program was quite successful. However, young people who decide to take technical or occupational training can't take advantage of this program. In our society, just as in yours, people are becoming more and more interested in high technology, because the economic needs are there. This is one of our concerns, and we would like to see a policy that would assist young people who wish to take technical training.
.1600
Those are the topics we wanted to discuss with you. We could have presented many others, but that gives you some idea of our main concerns. I know that you visited a few communities and I would like to conclude by saying that the best way to understand the reality of these communities is to go there and to go back, not just once in a while, but to be very present in these communities. When you live with this reality like we do, you start to understand what goes on in these communities.
It would also help your committee to visualize what happens among first Nations in the area of education. Thank you.
The Chairman: Thank you very much. Would anyone else like to make a brief presentation or should we go on immediately to questions?
Mr. Caron (Jonquière): Thank you for your presentation. It was a pleasure to listen to you. I would like to ask you two or three questions as points of clarification.
With regard to special education funding, I imagine we're talking about students with adaptation or learning difficulties. It is my understanding that the Department will fund the education of these students outside reserves, but not the training provided in the schools you administer. Did they explain why? Is this a question of staff?
Ms Bastien: The Department funds education for high-risk children who have severe difficulties, such as the autistic or deaf mute. With regard to learning disabilities that are not necessarily treated in institutions, there is no money. There is none in the communities and there is none for others who have severe difficulties. The Department claims that our responses are unclear, evasive, that we do not have specialists to provide services, etc.
This debate has been going on a very long time now. It is also very costly. For example, we're talking about $40,000 for a child who goes into a specialized institution. Often, certain communities have offered to provide the same service for less cost - in the area of $20,000 to $25,000 - in order to keep the child with his family. The Department said no.
Mr. Caron: That's surprising, because elsewhere in Quebec, in the non-aboriginal sector, special funds have been allocated for at least 25 or 30 years for students with adaptation and learning difficulties.
Ms Bastien: Yes. We finally developed our special education policy and it was rather well received. However, we were told: "We don't have enough money, etc." We therefore decided to analyze the existing policy of the Quebec Education Ministry, a policy that has been in place for a long time now, as you've pointed out. Recently, we had to have our data validated according to the provincial policy.
Obviously, the costs involved are enormous, but that is quite understandable, as these needs are referred to as high cost needs.
.1605
Mr. Caron: I'm sure something could be done about that.
Concerning aboriginal language teaching, could you give me a brief report on the situation? In your communities, are students taught aboriginal language, or are any courses given in aboriginal languages?
According to Chief Peltier, prospects for the future aren't exactly brilliant. What is the situation regarding aboriginal language teaching in most of your communities?
Ms Bastien: To give you a snapshot of the 10 communities, it's rather varied. Many communities give immersion courses; a 4, 5 or 6-year-old child can take courses in the Mohawk language alone, for instance. These are language courses given in a language.
Other communities decide to give a few hours of aboriginal language teaching per week. It's going well, in the sense that there's a lot of good will on the part of these communities, but the major difficulty remains funding.
There are many initiatives, but languages are dangerously imperiled. This is a priority for us, but it is not funded, so it is set aside.
In Quebec, many languages are in peril, endangered. In the next ten years, some of them will disappear.
Mr. Caron: That means that there is no special funding for languages. The community can decide to give courses or allocate a certain...
Ms Bastien: When you talk about language courses, you're also talking about research, development and materials. We always have to find the money elsewhere. We're talking about flexibility in an agreement, but the fact remains that these costs are added on to the regular funding. We have to develop teaching materials, conduct research, and we need a team in place.
Mr. Caron: That means that there's no structure in place to develop audio-visual materials, for example.
Ms Bastien: Does anyone have something to add?
[English]
Mr. Diabo: In delivering services, as Lise was saying, it runs the gamut in terms of aboriginal languages, from second language courses to full immersion.
Each community proceeds on its ability. If you have the force of numbers in a sizeable community, you're able to be more flexible. If you're in an area where there are universities or other institutes of higher learning and if you're running teacher training programs you can sometimes influence them to include language training as part of the curriculum.
The funding that is devoted to this is quite minimal. In order to support programs, the native communities have had to spread the money or undercut other programs. That in itself is an option, I suppose. But when you consider, as Lise mentioned earlier, that one file is tied to another, if you're compromising regular education funding to provide some special needs education then you have to set aside more for language preservation or curriculum development. You have to provide a little more for high school norms and a little more for occupational-type training. Then you will have taken your regular allotment of money and stretched it pretty thin. I think that's how it's being accomplished today. Unless there's assistance, there will be a compromise in the quality of the education being given.
.1610
Our teachers are not getting any younger. We have to ensure there are students with sufficient fluency to follow them and to continue with the process.
[Translation]
Mr. Bonin (Nickel Belt): It is my understanding that the funding is insufficient.
Ms Bastien: That's what I repeated throughout my presentation.
Mr. Bonin: Can you tell me the amount of your subsidy per student?
Ms Bastien: Per student and per level? At the preschool level, it's approximately $4,600.
Mr. Bonin: For the preschool level?
Ms Bastien: Yes, full time.
Mr. Bonin: Did you say ``preschool''?
Ms Bastien: Yes, the preschool level. Then there are the elementary and secondary levels. So there are three levels for full-time students. I think we're talking about $3,900 for preschool, $5,600 for the elementary level and $5,200 or $5,300 and for secondary level.
Mr. Bonin: I know there may be difficulties, because every time I put this question to various school boards or school administrations, the amount quoted differs. The last time I asked this question, I was told it was $7,000 per student. I'm not trying to insinuate that you receive $7,000, but I will try to make an effort to understand the Department's funding formula.
I'm convinced that if there were a funding formula based on the number of students, with adjustments for special education, compensation for curriculum development, professional development and accounting, students would obtain more than they do now. You must understand that it is not within this committee's mandate to change anything. Therefore, it's difficult for us. We don't have the power to impose anything on anyone and we have no desire to do so.
If I'm a member of this committee and if I'm discussing special education, it's to benefit children. So you are all of secondary importance, as am I and others here. If I've devoted a number of hours to this committee, as I will continue to do so, it's for the children.
What do you think of this idea of funding per student throughout the country with adjustments for special education, as is the case for all public school boards? If at some point, a school board decided to provide services above the usual standard, the entire bill would be paid by the community. I was a school board trustee and chairman, and I do know that various funding formulas allow for acceptable education standards.
When we decided to offer something superior in the area of special education, because we believed in it, the community paid 100% of the bill as soon as we went beyond the formula ceiling. Are your communities prepared to do that?
Ms Bastien: You're talking to me about an acceptable formula. A formula is acceptable provided the amount is acceptable. We cannot say: ``We are in favour of a certain formula.'' Right now, if we go beyond the amount provided for, we pay the bill. It's always the same thing. Do you understand? If we decide to provide special education services today, we will have to pay the bill.
Mr. Bonin: Some communities do not spend the money provided for operating costs in order to accumulate the money needed to cover the cost of construction. In those cases, there is no formula, there's no accountability and there is no accounting. It's the child who is being swindled.
I'm talking about a pan-Canadian system. I'm certainly not criticizing what you do, because I don't know what you do. If I proposed a new formula, I would not want to impose it on you. I would discuss it with you beforehand so that everyone agrees on the best possible funding formula.
Right now, in some parts of the country such as yours, special education is provided. In other countries, there isn't even basic education.
.1615
Without an intelligent formula, set out by you in conjunction with the people requesting it, we cannot provide adequate service to children. Am I wrong about that?
Ms Bastien: On many occasions, we have tried to work with those people in order to develop appropriate formulas. We were often told: ``Yes, okay, but there will be no money to go along with this.''
Mr. Whiteduck: You really have to be familiar with community needs to come up with an adequate formula. We work in the community. Everyday, we see youngsters who come to school with problems. The school has a lot of trouble providing adequate service to these young people.
The dropout rate is high. Those young people end up in the street, which leads to other problems for the community. That's the problem we want to solve, and we can do it.
All of us here have been involved in education for 20 years or more, and as we've been repeating for years now, we want to work together to develop an adequate formula. We know the limits of the current funding and we are prepared to work with that, but we should be invited to work with you on concrete issues to solve as many problems as possible. This will be a long-term project. That's what we're looking for, but no one is really listening to us. We're given a small amount and the problem is never solved.
The idea of a new formula must be examined very closely. After that, if a community decided to provide services that went beyond the available funding, it would be up to that community make the adjustments. It is that community that will make the decision in the final analysis.
Mr. Bonin: If we took the money we spend today and divided it by the number of students, we could establish a standard for the entire country. That amount might seem insufficient to some, but the money would be there.
This would be to the child's advantage. There are aboriginal communities that provide better education than many public systems. However, there are others that suffer for lack of services, and I would like to find a way for you to ensure a minimum standard of education across the country.
We will succeed. Do we agree on that, in general terms?
Mr. Whiteduck: Only if the formula is developed in conjunction with all stakeholders.
Mr. Bonin: It should be developed by you.
Mr. Whiteduck: Yes, but we are kept on the sidelines, and then they propose a document and tell us: ``Here you are, you have no choice.'' We've been developing our education system for 20 years and we understand it. We have knowledge and expertise to contribute.
Mr. Bonin: The formula should be developed by you, but with existing amounts.
Mr. Whiteduck: Yes.
Mr. Bonin: I often hear: ``Give us more money and everything will be fine''. I don't think there's any other money available.
Mr. Whiteduck: First of all, we have to examine what is being done, look at what could be done in the future, and determine how much we would need to achieve those objectives. You have to start from scratch.
Mr. Bonin: Thank you.
.1620
[English]
Mr. Murphy (Annapolis Valley - Hants): Thank you for your presentation. What are some of the ingredients you would like to see in this special education policy? What are some of the things that need to be in there? It's obviously money, but what else?
Chief Peltier: I'm glad you agree.
Ms Bastien: Are you talking about the kind of services?
Mr. Murphy: Yes, services. In fact, maybe I'll just ask you the question as well. I would assume that, even though funding is not there for the formula for special education services, you, in fact, do provide a lot of specialized services. I might ask what some of those are. So it's the ingredients you'd like to see there, and what you're providing now. As I understand it, you're the educational authority for a number of schools' operative services.
Ms Bastien: It doesn't work like that. I'll do just a comparison with your school system.
You have the education authority there and all the schools under that authority. I don't have all the communities giving me direction. I have no authority in their communities. It's up to each community to develop its own system. I'm just there to assist, and the office is just there to help and give information.
Mr. Murphy: I should have used ``council'' rather than ``authority''.
Ms Bastien: As for what kind of services we can buy, I guess Mike will answer this question. Consider the kind of services we provide also.
Sure, we give a lot of special education services. It's impossible to refuse such services, so we have to compromise a lot of other issues to give these services and make it easy and understandable.
Mr. Murphy: I'll just ask you a little later what does get compromised.
Mr. Diabo: In the effort to meet our special education needs, this is what we have to do with the various communities. I'll use our community as an example.
In our community, we began addressing the issue of special education over the last five or six years. In a community that's just beginning, first, they have to become aware of the problem and take ownership of it. So some of that facilitation is needed in that area.
There has to be training. Once you've discovered you have special-needs students integrated into your classroom, your teachers have to be able to deal with them. So you need some teacher training on top of this. You need administrative training, because special education is kind of a little special sideline to education, and there's a lot of technical jargon and categorization that goes on here. So there's some training required there.
When you get into the actual delivery of service, you need a certain amount of consultant service. You need some people who can adapt the programs. You need psychological education consultants, a home-school type of counsellor in some cases, audiologists, speech therapists, and physiotherapists. Those are the kinds of specialists you need. You need resource teachers that help create individual education plans and assist the classroom teachers in delivering these. In some cases, when you have ratios, you need classroom assistants, as well, to help out.
You have to sometimes adapt your classroom. Sometimes you need special electronic equipment, like an oversized keyboard for a child. In some cases you need a shadow because of a student in a wheelchair.
I'd have to say that the obviously handicapped child - the special-needs child - is easier to work with. First, there are fewer of them, and it isn't very hard to devote services to that. But consider the lesser categories of learning delayed, learning disabled, emotional, behavioural, and people suffering from economic or social conditions. That's a little bit different.
Often you're inclined to say that the parents should exert more discipline, or a kick in the rear should fix that up. It's a little deeper than that. I guess these are the areas we're not able to meet at this point. Or if we do, we meet it inadequately.
One of the areas in which we personally compromise, of course, is that we just short-pay our staff. Whatever our remuneration scales are for teachers and for administration, it's less than the going rate in our area. We have to be careful we don't dip too deeply into that well, because then we become uncompetitive, and we can't attract people.
.1625
But that's a major area for us: we simply short-pay our staff. That's what covers the bulk of our special needs add-ons.
Mr. Murphy: Would each of the bands that have a council have an educational committee at the school level? Are you getting a lot of support from the education councils from each of the school bands? Are you getting a lot of support from them? Are parents getting involved in starting to beat out the need for special-ed facilities?
Ms Bastien: You're talking about whether the First Nations Education Council has a lot of demands?
Mr. Murphy: Yes. My understanding is you represent all those communities out there and each of those communities would have an educational committee. Do you follow me?
Ms Bastien: Yes.
Mr. Whiteduck: Yes, they are. I'm saying very loudly, and more and more loudly, that we will not accept anything less. We want our kids to have a future, and a future with employment; a kind of place in society. We, as representatives of the community and the parents, are bringing our voice even louder. That's why it became a priority.
When the FNEC did their study, they found 51% of the students needed help; 51% of our students. This is serious. If you had the Ottawa board here, and if they had 51%, Ottawa would be up in arms. Queen's Park and everybody else would be looking at new ways of doing things. When we have 51% and nobody seems to be worried, we're saying it's time to be worried; it's time to act on it. And we can. I really believe we can.
[Translation]
The Chairman: I have a few questions for you, Ms Bastien. Have you mentioned a national standard?
Ms Bastien: No.
The Chairman: I thought that someone earlier had mentioned national standards.
Mr. Bonin: For funding.
The Chairman: I know something was said about that, but I thought I had noted...
Ms Bastien: I spoke about a national policy.
The Chairman: In your opinion, would national standards be appropriate here?
Ms Bastien: Are you talking about standards with regard to the quality of education?
The Chairman: To determine the quality of education.
Ms Bastien: I did not speak about that.
The Chairman: Do you think it would be a good thing?
Mr. Whiteduck: That is something First Nations will have to look at. It should not be discounted.
We are not under the authority of education departments. We set our own standards and sometimes they can be lower. We will have to review that issue. It would be possible to set standards for all native communities in Canada.
The Chairman: A basic standard adapted to each native community.
Mr. Whiteduck: Yes, but we will have to examine the issue.
Ms Bastien: It is another stage in education for First Nations. We must keep in mind the concept of educational institutions and of the transmission of knowledge. The whole concept of education itself is extremely complex.
We are far from such a complex concept. If you take the province of Quebec, for example, the Department of Education there has mechanisms in place to develop and review policies, materials, standards, etc. We are a long way from that. We have no structures. It will be another step. But it is all part of the debate on the future of education and on jurisdiction in our communities.
.1630
The Chairman: When you talked about funding for post-secondary education, you mentioned technical training for young people. Those courses are not funded, but has demand for them increased?
We did not visit many schools, but we saw several of them throughout Canada, and we got the impression that many more native youths choose to study the humanities rather than in the sciences. In your opinion, is that because of the funding situation?
Ms Bastien: No, I think it's an indirect consequence. We have a policy, and science, math or anything having to do with science and technology just never came up. We had to promote the subjects, because kids have to know they are an option before they decide on their field of study. Some communities still don't have a high school. The kids weren't really exposed to these disciplines and didn't know about them...
In any case, the high school dropout rate is quite high. The students who stayed in school just seemed to go into the humanities naturally. But there is an increasing need. We asked young people on the verge of dropping out what they wanted to do and they told us that they did not want to go to university. If they had to, they would drop out. They wanted to learn a trade.
So the bands have a problem because there is no money. Tuition fees for trade schools are quite high.
Mr. Vincent: It all depends on whether a young person is interested and able to learn. Not everyone has the intellectual ability to do so. In the last few years, there's been a lot of interest for that option.
In any case, we can't afford not to have trades people. Society will always need carpenters, butchers and jewelers. The trades are an important component of the labour force. We know there's not enough money in several areas, and that at the moment, we can't meet the needs of those students. It's also a matter of cost.
Mr. Caron: When we talked about national standards, you mentioned evaluations. There has to be some kind of evaluation or official recognition for courses taught in grade school or high school. Students need to meet certain standards before entering high school or a trade school.
Ms Bastien: It does seem that the kids have received enough of an education in their community to move on to the next level. As for evaluations, I said a little earlier that we had to evaluate the school system, teaching included as a whole. To do that, we need mechanisms, criteria or evaluation tools which are not yet accessible to the community.
Mr. Caron: Can't the Department of Indian Affairs provide a service or someone to help in that area?
Ms Bastien: The regional office does not look after education any more.
Mr. Vincent: Pedagogical services and certified professionals are not available anymore to do that kind of specific work. There are only funding officers.
Mr. Caron: There is a major problem. A little earlier, one of you questioned whether provinces should be involved in native education. And now you are telling me that you don't have anyone to provide a pedagogical framework. I find it hard to believe that there's nothing of the sort out there. It's possible, but...
Mr. Whiteduck: First, as a community, we would not want that kind of service to be provided by the Department. We've had certain dealings with the Department of Indian Affairs. The relationship didn't work. However, it will work if we operate at the local level.
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Certain issues were raised regarding the fact that some students leave their community to study at a CEGEP. We provide a high school education, and our diplomas are recognized by the community. We have negotiated with the CEGEPS to have them recognize these diplomas. There was no problem in that regard, although we had to prove that our kids were getting a good education. Ten years later, 150 kids who came from our schools orifinally received their college diplomas. We did not have to abide by all the criteria established by the province. We had done our homework. We were lacking in resources, but we did it.
Mr. Caron: The best proof of this is that our students got in and were successful at the post-secondary level.
Mr. Whiteduck: Exactly.
Mr. Caron: If everyone tells you that the system works, but if students don't succeed at the post-secondary level, there's something wrong.
Mr. Whiteduck: That's right.
Mr. Bonin: Are school councils in your communities elected and autonomous? If not, would it be hard to make them so?
When I was a school board trustee, I fought against the city. But when I was a city counsellor, I fought against the school board. It seems that everyone wants to protect their own turf. Would there be a problem if the funding were given directly to the school board, as an independent and elected organization?
I've seen situations where the council or the chief had the power to take part of the money to use for construction, for instance. I think that's wrong. I may be wrong, but in my opinion funding for education should go to an entity elected by the community and every dollar should be spent on education. What is your opinion in this regard?
Mr. Whiteduck: I think each community should have the right to set up its structures and decide what it wants to do. It's up to them to decide.
There are all kinds of structures in our communities. For instance, in our community, band members vote in a school council for a mandate of two years. From a legal point of view, the band council has the right to sign agreements. However, any decision regarding spending on education is made by the education council. The band council has a kind of veto to block decisions which might contravene the community's policies.
As for labour laws, we hire people on contract. We can also fire them. It's a grey area. I think we will need to review it.
Mr. Bonin: Doesn't the federal Department of Indian Affairs recognize the independence of the education council?
Mr. Whiteduck: Yes.
Mr. Bonin: And the power to sign contracts?
Mr. Whiteduck: Yes.
Mr. Bonin: So it is up to us to recommend changes.
Mr. Whiteduck: And to give each community the right to choose its own system.
Mr. Bonin: Would native communities choose a municipal and civic community administration and a parallel but independent school board?
Mr. Whiteduck: Perhaps.
Mr. Bonin: Completely independent?
Mr. Whiteduck: Maybe.
Mr. Bonin: You don't want to discuss this? The other witness did not want to talk about it.
Mr. Whiteduck: It depends on each community. In our case, the answer would be no, but don't forget that each community should be able to decide how it wants to structure its school system.
Mr. Bonin: And you want to preserve the community's independence.
Mr. Whiteduck: Yes, that's right.
Mr. Bonin: I agree. I realize that some communities choose to elect an independent school board. In my opinion, these communities would have the highest rate of success. So how can we help communities that don't have this kind of independent school council, and whose chief decides to spend money slated for education on other things? The truth has to be told: that's what's happening. Isn't that what's happening in your community?
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Ms Bastien: We will not say that.
Mr. Bonin: That should not happen in your communities.
[English]
Mr. Diabo: As well, in our community our parent board is elected and selected. There's a mix of traditional, non-traditional, and religious lines. It's quite a mix. The board was established in 1967 and it has operated continuously, initially as a tea-and-cookies kind of operation, until the devolution of education programs went entirely into the community. Parents have retained full authority over education, and in any community, once the parents decide that they're going to take ownership of the education of their children, this sort of transition occurs where it becomes depoliticized and a bit more technical.
Our board has been operating for 25 years, but if you look at the Indian Act, it's still illegal. There is no recognition of that board's right to function. The funding that comes through funding arrangements goes with the band, because the department recognizes the band as the entity. In reality, when you look at the education chapters of the Indian Act, it's questionable whether the band has the authority to operate education.
So it would seem to make more sense to have a possibility for education bodies to be accepted as legal bodies. They are quite effective in our community.
Mr. Bonin: In closing, where I see benefit to what we're putting forward is that we talk about delivery of service, especially in special education, but we all know that when we have a small community we can't afford a psychologist,
[Translation]
a speech therapist, etc. Whereas the school council would consider it important to buy these services, often the band council does not think so. In my opinion, if we want to deal with the needs of children needing special education, school councils must be granted autonomy.
[English]
Mr. Murphy: You were talking about the educational committees being outside of the framework. Sometimes innovation comes when we work outside of the framework. Obviously, you are being very innovative in some of the things you're doing.
In talking about special services, can you ascertain any services from the province's special education people, psychological educational people? Are you able to access any of that?
Mr. Diabo: Again, I'll give you our scenario.
In that we're near an urban centre, being just outside of Montreal, we have access to a lot of professional and technical resources. We have developed a good rapport with the local school board, the Southwest Protestant School Board, which is undergoing a change now, but our technical people, our student services people, are certainly welcome to attend and sit in on the monthly meetings and seminars they hold, where there's an exchange of ideas and situations. So we certainly have access to the knowledge and the people working in the provincial sector, but the resources, of course, no.
Every board is, as you know, strapped for money itself and they're going to use what they can for themselves.
Mr. Murphy: Would you see any value in joint projects with close school boards such as the one you were talking about, so you would purchase a psychologist or psychological services between the two of you? Are there other combinations that might transpire? Is there something innovative about some of this that could happen?
Mr. Diabo: I'm sure that's quite possible where a psychologist's days can be shared, even under the condition where there are different curricula and different mission statements. When the professionals are working with the aboriginal community, they are in fact working in lock step with the philosophy of education in that community, and when they go back into the public sector of course they will go in there.
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Mr. Whiteduck: The reality of most communities that are rural and away from the urban centres is that we cannot. It is not available. We are near a francophone board. Whatever services they can give are going to be in French. Our kids speak English within our schools, so there is a difficulty there.
Some of our kids attend school in the town of Maniwaki, only 137 km from here. When our kids run into difficulty and need special help within that system in the English language, they call us and ask us to take the kids back because they can't offer that help.
Do you know what's happening? We were getting a lot of kids who we thought we couldn't handle, so we were sending them to the other school. They were flipping the kids back to us, so these kids were being treated like ping-pong balls.
Are arrangements possible with local boards? My experience is that they often are not. Do you know why? We are still being treated as lesser. We are not legally recognized. They're saying that we are not recognized by the minister. I know in our area we have been unable for many years to arrive at any kind of agreement. We said we could work together to the benefit of both communities because we both have small anglophone groups. They said no. They said it that simply. They wouldn't work with us.
So we went back home and said, well, we'll do our own thing. We have always been prepared to cooperate. That is what is so frustrating about trying to work this out. But if nobody is listening, you kind of give up after awhile.
[Translation]
Mr. Vincent: I just want to add something to what Mr. Gilbert said regarding access to specialized services provided by professionals. We just don't have access to these services. We are not in a rural setting, but in a city.
Let me give you a small statistic. I think that there is one psychologist for every 2000 students in a school board in the provincial system. Firstly, these people have no time; and secondly, if we wanted to access the services of a psychologist, there would be none available. The only thing we could do is send our children to specialized schools far away.
As for relations with school boards, the situation is a bit like the one described by Gilbert earlier. It used to be that we could send our teachers on school boards' professional development days. But this year, we were told that it was just getting too crowded. So now our teachers can't go any more.
Mr. Bonin: I'd like to comment on what you've just said, because I have the impression that you don't have any school board associations or teachers' associations, like the ones that exist everywhere else. Don't you think it's time for you to create such associations so that natives can benefit from sharing their experiences and their knowledge?
Mr. Vincent: We do have meetings and conferences for people who work in native education. I'm always interested in finding out what is happening elsewhere, and perhaps I can teach others about my experiences.
Some of our students go to outside schools. When they do well, there is never any problem. But last year two of our students were sent back to us because of behavioral problems. The director of the other school bluntly told me that he never wanted to see these students in his school again. In other words: ``Roger, solve your own problems''. So we have meetings, but we don't have any kind of union.
Mr. Bonin: It would be a good idea to have a national and provincial association for administrators, school board trustees, school principals and teachers.
I can tell you what's happening in northern Ontario regarding the purchase of services. I'm from Sudbury. Retired professionals are busier now than when they were employed by school boards, because during the fishing season they work for school boards near places where there is good fishing. I encourage them to do so. It's quite legal. They sell their expertise while they're there. They go into schools and test people.
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School superintendents could work 12 months a year. Their expertise is useful. I am sure there is such expertise in Montreal but we would have to contact retired superintendents rather than school boards that are facing cuts to the extent that they can no longer address their own needs.
Ms Bastien: It's true that there is expertise in that area, but that's true everywhere. We have shown in the past that when the need arose we knew where to find the expertise. We do it fairly regularly.
Unfortunately communities are somewhat wary because of negative experiences when they have hired outsiders who had too much expertise, who knew everything and who wanted to change everything in the community. In some cases the results have been catastrophic. Some experiences have been really bad. It has done a lot of damage.
The relations between non-Indian and Indian teachers are not easy. In some cases non-Indian teachers are the majority and they come with their so-called expertise. They know all about union activism, collective agreements, etc. As for the Indian teacher, he is closer to the community, to the school council, to the school. It's all very well to go and look for expertise, but we should be careful.
The Chairman: Ms Bastien you said that you may have a brief or a document for us.
Ms Bastien: Yes, in the next few days.
The Chairman: We would greatly appreciate it, and so would the researchers. To conclude, I would like to sincerely thank you for your presentation. It was most interesting.
[English]
Chief Peltier: I have just a couple of questions for clarification. I notice in your terms of reference that you have stated this subcommittee will be making its final recommendations to the standing committee by the end of June. Is that still the deadline or has it been changed?
The Chairman: No, that has been changed. It will probably by in October now.
Chief Peltier: Are other hearings going to take place during the summer recess?
The Chairman: We have to decide whether we are going to sit during the summer.
Mr. Bonin: We will have more hearings.
The Chairman: We will have more hearings; we just have to decide when.
Chief Peltier: It is a very important matter. While your hearings are ongoing, maybe our directive to the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development should be given from the chair to the minister, telling the minister to instruct his officials not to use this committee as a tactic to avoid continuing with ongoing services.
The task force under this organization has an agreement with the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development to meet at certain times, and he supports our task force. That task force is supposed to work directly with Ottawa and we have had several meetings now.
I just don't want the work that is important to us to be delayed in any way, shape or form because the technocrats at the Ottawa level might feel uncomfortable moving ahead in certain areas where I think moves have to be made.
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The Chairman: I can assure you, Chief Peltier, this subcommittee is completely independent from whatever authority is out there. We make the decisions on where we go and who we meet.
In the terms of reference, the statements we will be making are only suggestions. We strongly hope some of our suggestions will be taken by DIAND.
So just to set your mind at ease, we are completely independent of the department. We are the ones here who make the decisions on who we meet and where we go. I pass that onto you. We set our own terms of reference.
Chief Peltier: Okay.
I want to get that clear, because through the work of the task force there are priorities over priorities. The priority is special education. I am very pleased about the debate we had here today and the support we are feeling from the committee members. It is an important issue, and we are going to be pushing ahead on that matter, along with other priorities.
I just want to get a clarification on the deadlines. You are saying it is October. That is fine. I'll have to wait and see what the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development is going to be tabling as far as the inherent right of self-government is concerned and how that is going to have an effect on our ongoing negotiations with Canada in all the issues we are dealing with.
Mr. Whiteduck: There are two comments I want to make. First, I think everything we have stated today needs to be put into the context that we are looking for full autonomy over education within our communities. All of the funding we might be requesting, or formulas to be adapted, have to be understood in that context.
I also want to state, as somebody else did earlier this afternoon, the importance of our languages. The reality we face is that they are dying. They are dying in our back yard. We are trying to do things, yet we don't have the resources to make these things happen. If our languages die, we are very concerned that we are going to die as a people. We are not going to allow that to happen.
We don't understand why the federal government doesn't realize the richness there is and the fact that there are aboriginal languages in this country. Why not attempt to help us keep those in place?
It appears to us sometimes that we are trying to be a people but the federal government is trying to drag us down and ensure we will be wiped out. We will never let that happen. I strongly believe there have to be resources made available to allow for curriculum development, training of our aboriginal language teachers, and other needs that might occur in the community. This is fundamental to what a first nations school is all about. Thank you.
Chief Peltier: On that note, don't criticize the aboriginal MPs when they speak their aboriginal languages in the House of Commons or any other place.
I also want to say in these closing comments that I was very pleased to hear Mr. Jean Chrétien, when he was elected to the Liberal Party many years ago out in Calgary, say to the Aboriginal Peoples' Commission that his government would not put any cap on knowledge.
We hope that is still a commitment, and we look forward to that commitment being fulfilled.
I thank you. Have a good summer.
The Chairman: Thank you very much.
The meeting is adjourned.