[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]
Wednesday, June 21, 1995
.1540 
[Translation]
The Vice-Chairman: Mr. Jebb, I welcome you before the Subcommittee on Aboriginal Education. I know you have a plane to catch at 6.20 p.m. Therefore, I invite you to make your presentation now, and then we will move on to question period if possible.
[English]
Mr. Edwin Jebb (Director of Education, Joe E. Ross School): Thank you. I have a brief here, Mr. Bachand, a presentation to the House of Commons Subcommittee on Aboriginal Education.
Thank you, Mr. Chair of the House of Commons Subcommittee on Aboriginal Education, for giving me the opportunity to make this presentation.
My name is Edwin Jebb. I am the director of education for Opaskwayak Educational Authority, and I look after Joe E. Ross School, which is a school on our reserve.
The educational authority is the educational arm of Opaskwayak Cree Nation. Our community has a population of approximately 2,800. We are located about 600 kilometres north of Winnipeg in Manitoba.
Our educational authority is incorporated under a by-law with the powers given to us by the chief and council. Under the by-law, the trustees of the education authority number seven; five are elected by the voters of Opaskwayak Cree Nation and two are appointed by chief and council. This by-law I referred to documents the obligations and powers of the trustees or directors, with the rights of appeal in the by-law being with the chief and council. In essence, the board of directors of the educational authority reports to the chief and council as per by-law, and as director I report to the board of directors.
There is one school on the reserve that is nursery to grade 12 with an enrolment of 734. We have just finished our fourth year of operation and last Friday we had a graduating class of 29. The school was originally designed for 602 students, and by the end of the second year we had to get four portables to take care of the overcrowding. We feel we are still overcrowded, and we have had to put limits on the number of private home placements coming into our school.
This is further complicated by the fact that the board of directors of our educational authority, as well as the chief and council of the Opaskwayak Cree Nation, have, by policy, accepted members of our band living off the reserve to attend our school. Because of different reasons, with the lack of housing being the main one, we have had a number of band members living off the reserve in the town of The Pas who wish to enrol in our school.
For those students, Indian and Northern Affairs Canada has declared that they are not eligible for funding under the nominal roll process. For the students in private home placement, the sponsor would fund those students; in this case the sponsor would be the education authorities. Those numbers, however, are not incorporated into the nominal roll and are therefore not part of the formula in determining the space requirements for our school.
In response to the terms of reference this committee has, I would like to make some comments on the creative and innovate approaches by first saying that many educational authorities are doing or attempting to do many of these things as we learn from each other. Our educational authority, through one of its subcommittees, has been working on a curriculum through a review committee. Our school, of course, offers a Cree language program and native studies.
This past winter our board appointed a discipline committee, whose function is to review cases of students who have been suspended from school. This past year there have been five cases reviewed. In order for us to re-admit a student into the school, they have to appear before the discipline committee along with their parents. The discipline committee has the authority to impose restrictions and conditions for re-admittance into the school.
Three years ago, the Joe E. Ross School started a peer counselling program that was funded under the Stay-in-School Initiative under the Canada Employment Centre. This past school year at least five students received a high school credit in the school-initiated program called peer counselling. In order to receive this credit, the student had to put in so many hours of ``counselling'', which may include seminars or conferences on the subject.
.1545
Counselling is very important for our school and our community, since we recognize that many of the problems the students have in our school are a direct result of problems they have at home. In our school of 734 students, we have three counsellors and one home-school coordinator.
Over the past year and a half we have contracted with the University of Manitoba to deliver a counselling certificate program in our community. At least two-thirds of the participants are members of our staff. Our educational authority believes in professional development and believes that in order to have effective teachers, we have to know and understand where our students are coming from.
Our educational authority also believes in parental involvement, and through different methods it actively promotes school spirit. Home visits from teachers are mandatory at least once per year. As mentioned, we just had our high school graduation in our community, and Opaskwayak Cree Nation and its citizens see this as a community celebrating with a feast and a dance.
Everything I've presented is based on the premise that there has to be a feeling of ownership by the people in our community: ownership of the school, ownership of the curriculum, ownership of discipline, and more importantly ownership of progress. This we see as based on a notion of self-government and an extension of it.
In terms of funding, we need parity of resources. This was well documented in a funding study done by the Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs. It does not make sense when provincial school divisions on average are receiving more funding than the band education authorities.
Also, status Indians living off the reserve need to be funded. Over the last four years a large number of our band members have been living off the reserve, and for the 44 who attended our school this year, there was no funding.
We also need Indian and Northern Affairs Canada to stop playing games of divide and conquer with Indian people, especially for the educational authorities that are funded directly. The education money, as identified under band support funding and minor and major capital, has to go directly to the educational authorities. The present situation is that the regional office in Manitoba likes to direct funding meant for education to the chief and council. The managers in turn end up fighting over the money.
In addition to resources, our biggest problem in our educational authority is motivating high school students. This lack of motivation on the part of high school students is reflected in the many lates and absences. Our community is still working on this, but we feel we have come a long way from where we were 10 years ago.
Submitted by me, Edwin Jebb, director of education. Thank you.
The Vice-Chairman: Thank you, Mr. Jebb.
Mr. Bonin, do you want to ask questions?
Mr. Bonin (Nickel Belt): I will start with one question.
[Translation]
First of all, I'd like to apologize for my tardiness. I had a petition to present and this is the last day to do it.
In the part of your presentation I did hear, you said it does not make sense when provincial school divisions on average are receiving more funding than the band educational authorities. Are you talking about the provincial school systems?
Mr. Jebb: That's right.
Mr. Bonin: I was a school trustee for nine years, and I know they are not getting more funding; as a matter of fact they are getting less. I am not suggesting our native schools are getting too much; definitely not. But I know the funding in the public school system is enhanced by a local levy that communities impose on themselves.
For example, based on an equalized assessment formula, which is 19 pages long and very complicated, the City of Toronto gets no funding from the Province of Ontario, or it didn't when I was a trustee. They could raise enough local taxes to support their system without provincial contribution. The school board I sat on, where we have mines and you can't assess what is underground municipally, was funded at 90%, so we got 10% locally.
That leads me to say that the public provincial schools are getting less funding, but they're getting more money to work with from a local levy they impose on themselves because they want extras.
.1550
[English]
How do you feel about your communities wanting more excellence in education and at least the businesses investing in your youth so they can come back and contribute to the community?
Mr. Jebb: First of all, I can respond by saying I used to be a school trustee also, so I understand the system in Manitoba. Maybe I don't understand the one in Toronto, but I understand how the system works in Manitoba, with special levies, residual costs, and all those kinds of terms that were used when I was a school trustee. But that was 10 years ago.
Also, some of the school divisions in western Canada, namely the Northern Lights School Division in northern Saskatchewan and Frontier in northern Manitoba, raise very little money from taxes. A lot of the money comes from the provincial government. So it is true that on average 20% might be raised by special levy for most of the school divisions in Manitoba.
As to the last part of your question, I really haven't put much thought into how much money, if any, could be raised locally because of the so-called tax base on reservations, which is very little, in terms of businesses, that is.
Mr. Bonin: I understand your position and I can relate to it. I know it's not easy.
The other point you made, if I understood it properly - and correct me if I didn't understand it properly - was on the battle between the chief and council and the school administration. There's a possibility that not all educational dollars go to education.
We've seen situations in which the chief and council have jurisdiction. Everybody offers to show us their budgets, but I haven't seen one yet. I'm simplifying this, but I suspect some of the education money is spent on roads, and if that's true, I certainly would like to recommend an end to it.
The recommendation that has been put forward lately is that the native communities establish a system of electing school administrators or trustees - whatever we call them - who would be autonomous and would get the funding directly and be accountable for it. Would that help the situation you are working in?
Mr. Jebb: No, it wouldn't. In the first part of our presentation we mention that on our reserve the trustees number seven; five of those are elected by the people at large and two are appointed by council. In spite of that, the Department of Indian Affairs still sends part of our funding, which is called band support funding and major and minor capital, to the chief and council.
Ten years ago we were told that if we incorporated we would get our separate funding. Maybe up to half of the educational authorities in Manitoba incorporated, thinking they could operate on a system such as you suggest. A lot of people said we were lured into that kind of system, but a lot of people thought a system like that would work. There is logic to it, of course - that separation of authority between education and the chief and council or whichever other authority.
Mr. Bonin: But I did mention that the funding would go directly and that the school council would be completely autonomous. Is that the missing link?
Mr. Jebb: It could be. I think we're almost there in our community. Our chief and council has an arm's-length relationship with us. There are only a few little areas where we have difficulties.
As I mentioned in my presentation, it's not the politicians who end up doing the fighting; it's the managers - the managers of education and the managers of the chief and council - who end up fighting over the money. The politicians themselves, whether they're trustees or the elected chief and council, know what the money is intended for, whether it's major capital, minor capital, or band support.
Mr. Bonin: But under the formula I put forward, all moneys would go to the school boards and they would have sole jurisdiction over that money. Would that not solve the problem?
Mr. Jebb: That would work. Our chief, in his meeting with the Minister of Indian Affairs this spring, suggested that, but we can't get it past the departmental officials and the regional office in Winnipeg.
Mr. Bonin: It would have to be a new policy across the land, I would think.
Mr. Jebb: I would welcome that.
Mr. Bonin: Thank you.
The Vice-Chairman: Mr. Murphy, do you have some questions?
Mr. Murphy (Annapolis Valley - Hants): Not now.
The Vice-Chairman: I have one small one.
[Translation]
You said that the funds were sent directly to chiefs and band councils. Regarding school board members, two are appointed by the chief and council and five are elected by the community.
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What do the school board members do? Must they work within the budget allocated by the band council? Can you give us an example? Does the school board have a certain leeway or does it depend exclusively and totally on the budget allocated by the band council?
[English]
Mr. Jebb: The budget for the educational authority and in essence the budget for the school is put together by the educational authority. We do not rely on chief and council to set up that budget. We have to present our budget to the chief and council as a matter of courtesy, but we do it ourselves.
We have that relationship with chief and council that we have to give them our budget and our financial statements. They keep an eye on us in a form of check system.
[Translation]
The Vice-Chair: You have also mentioned that you were responsible for the curriculum. Have you set up any special system that will allow your people to adapt completely to the Manitoba school system once they come out of the native school system? Are there any follow-ups or contacts between school boards and your group?
There are always gaps between one school system and the next. I have noticed that you give great importance to your culture and language. But when your young people will come out of your school network, they will have to adapt to the white man's school. What do you intend to do to make this transition as smooth as possible?
[English]
Mr. Jebb: I don't see that as an issue or a problem, because within the public schools there is a lot of leeway and a lot of provision for the schools to alter their curriculum.
There isn't very much alteration because our people will not allow it to do alterations when it comes to chemistry, biology, and those kinds of programs. But there is a lot of leeway within the public school system to offer what our people want to know about themselves in terms of languages and native studies. Those are the basic things our students have to know when they leave our system to go into what they call the white man's system.
If they leave our system and go out, whether it's to high school, university, or the workplace, and they're not confident in themselves and they don't have any pride in themselves and who they are, they're sure to fail. But if they go out into the white man's system and they have confidence in themselves, they're more apt to succeed.
What I propose and what we are doing is to review our curriculum to make sure those things happen.
[Translation]
The Vice-Chair: I have in hand a paper entitled Executive Summary: An Evaluation of Joe E. Ross School in which we find some 60 recommendations; this paper was prepared from what I've been told by a firm that you chose, Salasan Associates.
Can you tell me what the status is as far as those recommendations are concerned? Have you been able to implement most of them? Are these all still at an embryonic state?
[English]
Mr. Jebb: The document you're referring to, sir, was finished last May and our school board reviewed it last June. Along with a director and a principal, they have reviewed the recommendations. Many of them have already been implemented or started to be implemented.
The review you're talking about was done by Salasan Associates Inc., who are education consultants. The last review was done in 1987 or 1988.
By policy, the department likes to have schools and educational authorities evaluated every five years. I think ours waited six years to be evaluated. Evaluations are a good thing; we learn from them.
.1600
[Translation]
The Vice-Chair: Are there any other questions? Mr. Bonin.
[English]
Mr. Bonin: I have a short question on a comment you make where you say that we also need Indian and Northern Affairs Canada to stop playing games of divide and conquer, by sending the educational money to the band and council rather than sending it directly. Is this a decision that Indian Affairs can take upon themselves? Do they have the flexibility to send it to one or the other, or is there a law that forces them, at least until the community has a referendum, if you wish, telling them to send it directly to the school?
If it is something that Indian Affairs is doing on its own in order to divide and conquer, then I would like to know about it. I'd like you to give me some evidence of that.
Mr. Jebb: I think it's an issue. I think it's a decision that's made by the regional office, by the civil servants in Winnipeg who work for Indian Affairs and Northern Development Canada.
We did not have a referendum, but we did have a band council resolution signed by the chief and council and letters from our educational authority asking that the moneys in question be given directly to the educational authority. So all the things that had to happen did happen in our community: chief and council signing and sending a band council resolution and a letter, and a letter from our educational authority with our school board. So everything happened in the community - except the referendum, of course, as I mentioned. But still the department says, ``This is our policy for the region.''
[Translation]
Mr. Bonin: Mr. Chairman, can we ask the department officials who are here today to explain the situation?
The Vice-Chair: Can we wait till we are finished with our witness and then...
Mr. Bonin: That could be done in writing, later.
The Vice-Chair: Very well. We'll take note of it.
Mr. Jebb, we'd like to thank you for your presentation and for taking the time to come and meet us. We're very happy to meet you. Please give our regards to the people of Manitoba and the members of your community. I think that the future of young natives is in very good hands. We will send you our report and our recommendations.
[English]
Mr. Jebb: Thank you.
.1605
[Translation]
The Vice-Chair: Gentlemen, welcome to this meeting of the Sub-Committee on Aboriginal Education. I've had the opportunity to visit your magnificent region and I'm quite anxious to hear your comments. I will now invite you to start right away. Then we will have a question period.
[English]
Chief Harry Goodrunning (Sunchild First Nation, Yellowhead Tribal Council): Thank you.
First of all, I'd like to say that I'm greatly honoured to be here today in the presence of this committee.
Mr. Chairman, our submission is broken down into two areas. Jim Brulé, our director of education from the Yellowhead Tribal Council, will be doing the submission on the technical side of the work, as stated earlier.
I'll begin with the background of the Yellowhead Tribal Council. The respective chiefs and councillors of the member Yellowhead Tribal Council first nations - Enoch Cree Nation, Alexander First Nation, Alexis First Nation, Sunchild First Nation, and O'Chiese First Nation - are direct descendants of the signatories of Treaty Six. The member first nations entered into Treaty Six with the Queen in right of the United Kingdom as separate and independent sovereign first nations.
The member first nations are founded on the principles that recognize the supremacy of the Creator, respect for his creation, the sacredness of the pipe stem, and the oral traditions and understandings of our elders. They are obligated to protect, promote, and enforce the original spirit and true intent of Treaty Six as understood and told by our elders.
The Yellowhead Tribal Council community vision statement reinforces the treaty position as follows:
- As unified First Nations we honour and maintain our Treaties and resources guided by our
traditional beliefs and values as proud, wise, and spiritual peoples who walk in both worlds for
generations to come.
The current mandate of the YTC is to work collectively on issues and to facilitate the delivery of programs and services as required to fulfil each member first nation community's needs in a fair and responsible manner. The YTC currently offers management, health, child welfare, technical, legal, correctional, economic development, education programs, and support services to the approximately 5,000 YTC membership.
Since its inception, YTC has endeavoured to provide valuable educational programs and services to member first nations with the need to respond to the increase in demand for post-secondary education, therefore removing barriers that otherwise might restrict YTC members' future educational and employment opportunities.
From the first YTC university college entrance preparation program in 1984, YTC education department has grown into an education centre offering a multitude of accredited post-secondary programs through various recognized colleges and universities. Since then the Yellowhead Tribal Council has been successful in accommodating the needs of the students. The students now have their choice of programs.
The rapid growth and demand for post-secondary education resulted in formalizing an education committee, which was formally established in 1986. This committee was active and instrumental in all new educational program initiatives of YTC. The YTC education committee became an education board in 1993, which includes a chairperson and two members representing each of the five respective first nations of YTC.
.1610
The YTC executive of chiefs submitted the Yellowhead Tribal Council multi-year resourcing proposal in March 1994, which reflected the rapid growth and demand for post-secondary education of member students. The YTC education program funded over 292 students in the 1994-95 fiscal year, employed 12 staff offering a variety of post-secondary accredited programs, and manages a $3.3 million per year budget within a five-year $17.6 million alternative funding arrangement. The initial proposal had requested a $31 million budget proposal.
Mr. Chairman, I'll turn the next submission over to my director of education, Mr. James Brulé.
Mr. James Brulé (Director of Education, Yellowhead Tribal Council): Mr. Chairman, ladies and gentlemen, the Yellowhead Tribal Council presentation submitted to the Subcommittee on Aboriginal Education of the Standing Committee of Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development, June 21, 1995.
The current YTC education programs offered are as follows: university and college entrance preparatory program, or GED preparation; health development administration certificate; management studies diploma; pre-bachelor of education diploma; university transfer; and off-campus students, attending other post-secondary institutions.
I will now present a brief description of each of these programs.
First is the Yellowhead Tribal Council university and college entrance preparation program, UCEPP. This program offers Alberta education courses required to prepare students for entrance into post-secondary programs. The core courses are English and Math; additional courses are science, social studies, accounting, Cree, and computer skills.
There were 70 students enrolled in September 1994, with 19 students who withdrew or were terminated during the year. Thus a 72.8% student retention rate was accomplished.
The second program is the health development administration certificate program. This is Canada's first university program in community health administration. This accredited Athabasca University program is offered in partnership with the Yellowhead Tribal Council's education centre located in Edmonton. It is an intensive, two-year, seminar-based program. It has two field placement and practicums consisting of six months' practical experience. The curriculum optimizes development of both academic foundations and practical experience required for a successful community health administrator. The program consists of 60 transferable university credits.
There were 30 students enrolled in September 1994, and 7 students withdrew or were terminated during the year; the program thus accomplished an 86.9% student retention rate.
The third program is the management studies diploma program. This accredited Grant MacEwan Community College program is offered in partnership with the Yellowhead Tribal Council. Today's competitive business world requires top calibre management. This program provides practical management training for the realities of today's business world. Lectures, group workshops, and case studies in marketing, accounting, finance, human resource management, and microcomputer business applications develop and demonstrate the student's potential as a manager. Program enhancing courses are offered in personal finances, government-board-community relations, entrepreneurship, and computer accounting round out the business completion of year one and a diploma upon completion of year two.
The program had a 73.6% retention rate: of 29 students enrolled in September 1994, 11 withdrew or were terminated during the year.
The fourth program is the pre-bachelor of education program. The bachelor of education degree brokered through the University of Alberta is a four-year program consisting of one year of university prerequisite courses and three years of core education courses.
.1615
The program is nearing the end of the spring semester. Twenty-two YTC students and one non-YTC student are taking courses in education field experience and physical education. The De l'response to these courses has been excellent and students have enjoyed their field orientation experience in the schools.
Many of the students in this program have applied for entry into the bachelor of education program commencing in September 1995 at the University of Alberta. Other students have yet to continue their courses at YTC.
There were 38 students enrolled in September 1994, with 11 students withdrawing or being terminated during the year, for an 85.3% student retention rate.
The fifth is the university transfer program. The university transfer program offers YTC members the opportunity to access university transfer courses through the Athabasca University and the University of Alberta without formal prerequisites. The program enables students to enter degree-granting programs at YTC or other accredited academic post-secondary institutions.
There were 60 students enrolled in September 1994, with 20 students withdrawing or being terminated during the year, for a 66.6% student retention rate.
The sixth is the off-campus sponsorship program. The YTC education off-campus program is for students from the member first nations who wish to attend other post-secondary educational programs not offered at the YTC campus.
There were 105 students sponsored in September 1994. We are still awaiting student transcripts for final results of graduates or students withdrawing.
Innovative YTC on-campus program approaches to ensure student retention: The following initiatives have been implemented to ensure ongoing student retention within the YTC education on-campus programs.
1. Personal and career development courses adapted within all programs.
2. Psychological counselling available for all students.
3. Course adaptation in programs to meet the standards.
4. Necessary upgrading of basic skills of students.
5. Culturally relevant courses adapted within the program; for example, Cree and native studies.
6. Utilization of elders for traditional personal counselling.
7. Availability of ongoing workshops from respected colleges and universities.
8. Creation of a safe and orderly campus and classroom environment to ensure student learning.
9. High expectations from instructors to ensure that all students can and will succeed.
10. Providing opportunities for students to participate in practicums and field placements for future employment endeavour.
11. Student input and evaluations of courses and instructors.
12. Additional seminars for courses in which students are experiencing academic difficulties, such as science and English.
The second part of our proposal will be addressed by Chief Harry Goodrunning.
Chief Goodrunning: Thank you.
These are our recommendations for the Subcommittee on Aboriginal Education of the Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development.
The mandate of the subcommittee is to submit a final report and recommendations that focus on initiatives that permit Indian and Inuit school children and students to get the best possible education at elementary and secondary levels, to encourage students to stay in school and achieve standards that allow them to pursue post-secondary education and ultimately improve their competitive position in the Canadian workforce.
Further, it is how DIAND and other departments and organizations can play a positive role in improving educational and training programs and services by first nations, Inuit and provincial schools, education authorities, and educational institutions.
.1620
The Yellowhead Tribal Council has made the following recommendations on education, such that full and comprehensive education services are a right flowing from treaty, and it reminds the Government of Canada to fulfil these obligations flowing from treaty in accordance with the original spirit and true intent of Treaty Six as understood and told by our elders.
First, the Government of Canada should jointly proceed with the Confederacy of Treaty Six First Nations to develop a protocol for bilateral treaty discussions respecting the original spirit and intent of Treaty Six of 1876 and its subsequent adhesions. Within the provisions of Treaty Six, education is only one of the many areas discussed. This process must be completed before the treaty first nations, including the Yellowhead Tribal Council, discuss the possibility of assuming jurisdictional control of education as suggested by the Department of Indian and Northern Affairs.
The Confederacy of Treaty Six First Nations presented a submission to Minister of Indian and Northern Affairs Ron Irwin on April 5, 1995 at Long Lake First Nations in Alberta. The submission stated that the Treaty Six confederacy did not endorse the already proclaimed self-government agenda of the Government of Canada, and it called for a partnership approach to renew a genuine bilateral treaty process to implement the original and true intent of Treaty Six and its subsequent adhesions fully. In this regard, the Treaty Six chiefs reminded Minister Ron Irwin of the Liberal government's commitment in the Creating Opportunity - The Liberal Plan for Canada document, under the subtitle ``Renewing the Partnership'', on page 98, as follows:
- A Liberal government will be committed to building a new partnership with aboriginal peoples
that is based on trust, mutual respect and participation in the decision-making process.
Second, the Government of Canada must provide adequate resources to treaty first nations regardless of residence in order to address the ongoing demands for better housing, family services, economic development, health services, etc.
Treaty first nations people in Canada face a number of problems that contribute to drop-out rates and education levels much worse than those experienced by non-first nation Canadians in general. The multiple barriers faced by first nation children in achieving higher levels of schooling can be permanently overcome only through fundamental structural changes radiating from the proposed Treaty Six bilateral process.
Third, the Government of Canada should affirm that the Department of Indian and Northern Affairs is obligated to resource, and responsible for resourcing at full cost, programs serving treaty first nation students including but not limited to the following: student services programs; first nation pre-school and head-start programs; alternative programs for at-risk students; parent-and-family programs; retention programs; high- and low-cost special needs programs; severely handicapped student programs; gifted student programs; post-secondary adult programs; and hot lunch programs.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
[Translation]
The Vice-Chairman: As agreed, we will now start our question period. Mr. Murphy.
[English]
Mr. Murphy: Thank you for your presentation.
Just to understand your last report a bit...it sounds to me as if you are talking about wanting a partnership versus self-government, or the self-government agenda you see the Liberal government has put forward for aboriginal people. How do you see that partnership versus self-government in relation to education? I'm not quite sure what you are driving at here.
.1625
Chief Goodrunning: The partnership we speak about was a partnership that was made within the treaty that was signed in 1876, Treaty Six. A partnership was made for the sharing of the land and the resources at that time. That is the partnership we are talking about; the true spirit and intent of that treaty. The area of self-government flows within those treaties in the respect for one another's culture within that treaty. That is the partnership approach.
Mr. Murphy: Right.
Would you talk about partnership in education with the federal government? Do you want to have your school board or your band council or both in charge of education, and the direction of your education?
Chief Goodrunning: Currently we have a board in place that has full authority to deal with these areas of post-secondary educational needs for our member first nations. They go from the actual selection of the students themselves, using the marks they have accomplished.... So they currently have that authority.
The partnership we're talking about is the treaty promises of full, comprehensive educational needs that are required in this transition to the complicated lifestyle our young people need to learn. Our board determines the needs of those people. It is told by our elders that the treaty that was made in 1876, and adhesions to that effect, were such that their education would be taken care of.
Mr. Murphy: I'm trying to get a handle on your Yellowhead Tribal Council and your delivery of educational services. For instance, for education you have the pre-bachelor of education program. Would that pre-bachelor of education program allow somebody to teach in one of your elementary schools?
Mr. Brulé: Yes, that's correct, Mr. Murphy. What is happening at the reserve level is the request we get from the community, and the request from the community at this point is that they are requesting native teachers for their own schools -
Mr. Murphy: Sure.
Mr. Brulé: - for local control of education. In order to do that we have to train our own people to get the bachelor of education diploma. That's the process. So the needs come from the community and we supply the programs.
Previously to that it was the bachelor of social work. Then we went to the bachelor of social work program for the third and fourth years. We replaced that particular program with the teacher program, which was requested at the community level.
.1630
Also at the community level, our proposal for the five-year, multi-year resources were $31 million, and that's based on our needs from the five bands. What we received was $17 million from the federal government. There were some increases, but not drastically, to meet the shortfall of $14 million. That's where we're coming from, and I think this applies straight across Canada for all first nations in terms of education.
Education is only one component of the resources that are provided by the federal government. As mentioned by Chief Harry Goodrunning, education is just one segment of it. We need resources in all areas, more so, I guess, in education than the other programs. But we're behind in all programs, period.
Mr. Murphy: Let me relate something we've heard in a number of places we've been across the country.
Yes, there's no question, and I couldn't agree more, as to the need for more educated teachers in aboriginal communities; that's a given. However, what we hear sometimes is that to accomplish that, often teachers get in almost under an affirmative action program. They don't have the overall general knowledge that maybe, say, a grade 12 would bring, plus some upgrading in there. Rather, they come prepared to teach the subject in a quite narrow fashion.
We want to be able to make at the end of the day some rational recommendations. I know you're in the business of delivering that education, and it's maybe putting you on the spot, but our concern is that the kids may be getting the short shrift because they're not getting those teachers who have a broad knowledge as well as specific knowledges of education, and may not be as great of role models as you'd like them to be, not because of their natural qualities but maybe because of their lack of educational background. I'd like you to respond to that, if you wouldn't mind.
Mr. Brulé: Thanks again. Mr. Murphy, the way we have the program set up is that we broker the program through the University of Alberta, which in turn hires their own tutors to do the program. We have a seminar setting that's similar to what we have here for the classroom. Basically, what the students do is learn on a case-study basis as opposed to that of an individual at a larger university and have a more one-on-one relationship and feedback with the instructor.
For the first year, it encompasses all of what you mentioned there in regard to the upgrading, all the essentials that are needed to bring them right up to par so that they basically....
What happened is that they were trying to do this in the first year, but after one month they brought them right into a full first-year university program, so they were right on track. There have been no shortcuts for our teachers whatsoever. They will be well qualified by the time they complete. Also, we work in harmony with the University of Alberta where they will be actually going right on campus for half of their program and back to our campus for the other half each day.
Mr. Murphy: Could I be teaching in one of the schools and working towards my program, and take five or six years and still be teaching?
Mr. Brulé: Yes, that can be done also.
Mr. Murphy: Is there a drawback to that?
Mr. Brulé: Well, because we don't have the number of teachers now in that area, we have to start from square one and carry on from there.
All the teachers who are qualified first nations are spoken for, and that also applies to our Cree instructors. It's very hard to get Cree instructors, because they're all taken by their own respective bands.
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I know what you're referring to. We do have and will have the best qualified in a normal setting, like the other teachers.
Mr. Murphy: Thank you.
Mr. Brulé: I do appreciate where you're coming from.
[Translation]
The Vice-Chairman: When I visited your region, I was given a cassette on the interpretation and philosophy of Treaty no. 6 or 7. I understand your position when you state that the education component should have been in Treaty 6 originally. If I understand what you're doing, you are proposing a bilateral process for the joint implementation of the Treaty by the federal government and yourselves.
You have already signed an agreement in principle to that effect on March 16, 1995, in Calgary, and you will soon be signing a memorandum of understanding. Your brief also says that you would like the memorandum of understanding to be approved by the Governor General in Council and be signed by July or August 1995.
In summary, since Treaty number 6 signed in 1876 was never adhered to, you suggest that it be implemented through the bilateral process I have just mentioned. Is that correct?
[English]
Chief Goodrunning: Mr. Chairman, you are absolutely correct in asking those questions in that manner. That's exactly what we're saying.
We have united as a Treaty Six within the Alberta region. I cannot respond any further to that, but your comments are exactly correct. We believe this is the only way we can accomplish the original intent and true spirit of that treaty as it was understood by our elders.
The interpretations of that treaty continue to be questionable on our part in regard to the federal government and other levels of government. We feel it is a long outstanding issue that needs to be brought to the forefront and dealt with.
Regarding the protocol itself, we felt that we needed to have a timeline in place, Mr. Chair, and those are the months we had targeted to have a protocol to guide the discussions for the protection of those rights negotiated over 100 years ago.
[Translation]
The Vice-Chairman: Regarding the agreement in principle which has been signed, do you think that the governor general in council will endorse it before July or August? What about your representations to the prime minister for the signing of the memorandum of understanding? In other words, do you feel that your timetable is realistic?
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[English]
Chief Goodrunning: Mr. Chairman, it is of the utmost importance to us that we make that attempt. As you are well aware, the Liberal red book stated as part of the cornerstone of a new relationship with the aboriginal people that:
- a Liberal government will act on the premise that the inherent right of self-government is an
existing aboriginal and treaty right within the meaning of section 35 of the Constitution Act,
1982.
- Liberal government will seek the advice of treaty First Nations on how to achieve a mutually
acceptable process to interpret the treaties in contemporary terms, while giving full recognition
to their original spirit and intent.
It is with that we feel there's an opportunity for treaty first nations people of Alberta, particularly of Treaty Six, to make a serious attempt to try to have our understanding brought to the forefront with the federal government. The rights signed and negotiated in 1876 and the subsequent adhesions will not fade away from our people. They form the basis of our lives.
[Translation]
The Vice-Chairman: Thank you. Mr. Bonin.
[English]
Mr. Bonin: You probably heard my questions for the other witness. This one is in thesame vein.
I wish to talk about the education board. You have a chairperson and 10 persons from five respective first nations. Could you explain to me how these people become board members?
Chief Goodrunning: Mr. Chairman, these board members are appointed by band council resolutions from each first nation.
Mr. Bonin: And how is the chair appointed?
Chief Goodrunning: I'm sure Jim Brulé could answer that.
Mr. Brulé: The chair is actually selected by vote by the 10 representatives after they have been selected. They select the chair from among themselves.
Mr. Bonin: So it's not a chair plus 10. It's a total of 10.
Mr. Brulé: That's right. So whoever is nominated and wins the nomination becomes the chair for whatever length of time they propose. There is no set time limit.
Mr. Bonin: How autonomous is this board in areas of finance and of decision-making?
Mr. Brulé: Their decisions are made within the board. As representatives, they also report to their chiefs what transpired in the particular meetings.
They also have the full authority to control the finances as a board.
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Mr. Bonin: I asked the question because it surprised me that the recommendations you present don't come from the board but from the tribal council. That makes me wonder what role the board plays if the recommendations that make reference to education are presented by the band council. I suspect that the board probably formulated them and they're presented by the council.
Mr. Brulé: The system we have requires that the chiefs have to be notified at all times of all of the education transactions and also their finances, and that's the result for any entity we have at YTC.
Mr. Bonin: You are the director of education?
Mr. Brulé: That's right.
Mr. Bonin: Is your name Brulé?
Mr. Brulé: That's right.
Mr. Bonin: You see, we have a saying, ``strong board, weak administration and weak board, strong administration''. I'm sure you're very experienced in education and you would therefore have to work very hard and sometimes seemingly against your board in favour of the children, and conflicts develop.
Mr. Brulé: That's right.
Mr. Bonin: That's good. Who resolves the conflicts, the board or the tribal council?
Mr. Brulé: The tribal council has the last say.
Mr. Bonin: What expertise do they have in education?
Mr. Brulé: They each have a director of education for their respective bands, who they can use as a technical person.
Mr. Bonin: Are these certified persons or appointed?
Mr. Brulé: I believe, of the five, three are certified.
Mr. Bonin: It seems to be working well.
While I'm at it, I might as well ask the question that I ask of all. If there were a system of board autonomy, where the funds would go directly to the board of education and where the tribal council would have no say, would that present problems? First of all, I'd like to make it clear that there is no way that we're even thinking of implementing, because that's not our role; all we'll be doing is making recommendations based on the answers you people give. How would that affect the system in your area?
Mr. Brulé: We've always worked on the concept that -
Mr. Bonin: If I may interrupt, would you like me to ask the chief to leave?
Mr. Brulé: I think the way we operate is that everybody is involved, right from the community level to the top and vice versa. On the outside, one would usually have the chief executive officer at the top and everybody has to go through the echelons to report to him. So the bottom person never reports to or talks to the top CEO. In native culture, it's the opposite, we're all at the same level, at the grassroot level, with the chief, and we can talk to him at any time, on a one-to-one basis. Our entities are also run on the same basis; that is, everybody works together as a community and nobody can operate on their own because they still need the support of the chief. I know what you're getting at, but it is based on community and you can't keep the chiefs out because they have to be informed continually.
Mr. Bonin: What I'm really getting at is this: given the short time we've been here and the material I've seen, I have no doubt that your chiefs are committed to education -
Mr. Brulé: That's right.
Mr. Bonin: - but what guarantee do we have that the next chief will be committed to education? That's why I ask these questions.
If you have an elected board, serving over a period of time, you will have the commitment - where you have a trustee serving for 25 years, for example.
Where I've seen communities where the chief, especially, is totally committed, I find systems that work well. You're talking post-secondary education, and it has to be working well. But where the chief is not personally committed, I find the success is not as high, and that's what I would like to see protected for the future.
Chief Goodrunning: Mr. Chairman, I'd like to respond to that if I can.
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First of all, prior to the board becoming a board in 1993, the inter-tribal council of chiefs had a system in place that was a portfolio system. We each had experience in somewhat different areas. My area was education, which was my portfolio at that time. We felt comfortable with removing that barrier to giving autonomy; we went with that premise and it worked very well. But on the other side of that, with the current level of funding that the department provides to us...with their rapid growth, the demand for post-secondary education is ever-increasing within our communities.
Last year, I believe we had something like 350 to 370 applicants. Of that group we had to turn down a considerable number of people who had the right to be educated, because of the shortfall in funding. The whole intent of the multi-year resource proposal would have taken care of a large part of that ever-increasing growth and the increasing demand for post-secondary education.
Mr. Bonin: Who makes the decision as to who is accepted and who is turned down? Is it the board or the council?
Chief Goodrunning: It's the board.
Mr. Brulé: In regard to your earlier question as to whether the chiefs are all committed to education - and you asked what would happen if one isn't - you're looking at five chiefs and I think the other four will have the upper hand, in terms of that person not being committed to education. To date, it has been very effective. We've been in operation since 1978 as a tribal council, and we've come a long way since then.
Mr. Bonin: I must admit that your situation is unique in that you have five different communities that appoint. In the majority of cases it's one community where the chief appoints, and usually when a chief loses an election...as I will lose one someday - maybe sooner than I want to - and it won't be my best friend who takes over and, therefore, the people I have appointed will be gone; that's why we don't have a continuity, but you would.
Thank you very much.
[Translation]
The Vice-Chairman: Gentlemen, we thank you for your presentation. I think it was very good. You have an interesting school organization and, once again, I must tell you that the future of your young students seems to be in good hands. I wish you a good trip back home and please bring our greetings to your various communities. Thank you.
[English]
Mr. Brulé: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman and the rest of the committee.
Chief Goodrunning: Mr. Chairman, once again I want to say thank you and that, again, it appears as if everything is fine, but I think the point we're attempting to make here is that the needs of first nations people differ greatly from those of the general Canadian public. We have five communities in the tribal council. One community, where I come from, is some three hours away from the nearest post-secondary institution. Two of our communities are isolated from any urban area. The transition that our members have to make in regard to acquiring the next level that they require for their success in life is enormous compared with that for the rest of Canadian society.
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Mr. Chairman, I just wanted to say that. Again, I want to thank you for this opportunity, sir. Again, we also bring greetings from our chiefs. Thank you.
The Vice-Chairman: This meeting is adjourned.