[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]
Thursday, June 1, 1995
.1535 
[English]
The Chairman: Order.
On behalf of the committee, I want to welcome Professor Renaud.
As I think you're aware, we're looking into the general issue of the economic implications of immigration to Canada and our immigration policy. Our starting point was the book Diminishing Returns, although that is not exclusively what we're looking at. Our hope is that we will write a report at the end of our work and make some useful comments to Parliament and through Parliament to the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration.
I would also like to welcome Mr. St-Laurent to our group. We are happy to have him sitting in on behalf of the Bloc.
The floor is yours, Mr. Renaud.
[Translation]
Professor Jean Renaud (University of Montreal, individual presentation): I will not discuss the Diminishing Returns report, because I am not familiar with it.
I will discuss a survey that I conducted that is on-going and that deals with the massive settlement in Montreal of new immigrants to Quebec. In discussing this survey, I can tell you how immigrants settle, how quickly they do so and what problems they encounter.
First I thought I would discuss the survey so that you have a clear idea of what it entails, and then I will go on to discuss two subjects among many that I could have chosen to broach with you. These subjects are the settlement of immigrants in terms of employment and what happens to them during these episodes. We will go over those points quickly.
.1540
This survey was done on a sample group of immigrants who arrived in Canada in 1989, with Quebec as their province of destination. They arrived visa in hand and were selected for the sampling at the border station. There were no refugee claimants or inland applicants among this group; they all had their visas upon arrival. This is a sample group of 1,000 adults 18 years of age or over whom we managed to find one year later in the Montreal area.
This is a sample group of individuals, not households or families. Some families had more than one respondent. The people interviewed were not only those who were seeking employment. They were adults in the broad sense of the term, that is, 18 years of age and over.
The immigrants in question were interviewed three times: first at the end of their first year, in the summer of 1990, a second time at the end of the second year, in 1991, and a third time in 1992. The interviews took place in 24 different languages. The language of the interview was left up to the respondent, the idea being to make him comfortable enough to respond to the questionnaire, so that we would not lose the cases that had the most settlement difficulties.
Another series of interviews will be held when these people have been in Canada between eight and ten years. Therefore, before the turn of the century, we will find the persons interviewed again. The questionnaire enabled us to capture the dynamics of settlement. We sought to find out about all the employment episodes they experienced, with starting and ending dates as well as the characteristics of each job. The same was done for housing, contacts with the education system, part-time studies, full-time studies, and COFI courses in Quebec, so as to enable us to find out in what order events occurred and the extent to which a change in the chain of settlement events leads to a change in another chain of events.
Essentially, I will discuss two chains of events, employment and episodes of unemployment. You will find a description of the other events in the two documents I've distributed, as well as more in-depth analysis. I gave Margaret Young copies of a series of articles that were produced from this data and that analyze specific aspects in greater detail.
This is a sample group of people who arrived in Quebec, and not in the rest of Canada. In Quebec, the institutions that help immigrants settle are somewhat different. For example, Quebec has the COFI system, the Centre d'orientation et de formation des immigrants, immigrant orientation and training centers, which do not exist elsewhere in Canada. In Toronto, funds are channeled towards ethnic associations that provide settlement services. Therefore, there are differences in terms of institutions that provide settlement assistance.
However, social standards, the economic context and market forces are such that the settlement process experienced by people in Montreal is to all intents and purposes identical to that experienced in Toronto and Vancouver.
A few things are different when related to specific institutions, but not overly so, which means that the results of this study can largely be applied to the settlement of immigrants throughout Canada. For example, we drew some comparisons with Australia. The immigration process in Quebec is very similar to what goes on in that country, as far as we know.
.1545
Let us go on quickly to the second topic, that is new immigrants and employment.
[English]
The Chairman: There's no need for you to feel rushed. You can take your time.
[Translation]
Prof. Renaud: Fine. I don't do this sort of thing on a daily basis. So let me describe quickly the cohort that was examined in the course of this study. This is a cohort of immigrants who arrived in Quebec in 1989, visa in hand. Most of them had a university education. Very few had only an elementary school education.
The vast majority of this cohort is made up of independents, people who come here with an inherent market value, if I can put it that way. The second category were family class immigrants, who were two times less numerous than the independents. The third category was made up of refugees, but we musn't forget that these refugees arrived visa in hand and were not refugee claimants.
The study I will describe is characterized by the fact that there was a massive cohort of independents. We will see that there are differences between the three major groups in terms of settlement. In my presentation, I will demonstrate the characteristics of these three major admission categories in order to show that Canadian and Quebec selection policies work well or bear fruit.
[English]
Mr. Hanger (Calgary Northeast): As a point of clarification, on that one graph you were showing just prior to this, you indicated that the refugee class had only visas. What do you mean by that?
[Translation]
Prof. Renaud: Those who were interviewed already had a visa when they arrived in Canada. They were not claiming refugee status in Canada, but rather, they already had that status, they had already been selected in refugee camps abroad. They arrived as refugees and they knew on the day that they arrived that they had landed immigrant status.
[English]
Mr. Hanger: They were chosen by the immigration department in Quebec overseas?
[Translation]
Prof. Renaud: Yes. I'm not sure whether you're familiar with the differences between Quebec and Canada. Canada has officers abroad who select independents and refugees. Quebec can make a further selection from among the people selected by Canada. With regard to the family class, the rules are approximately the same; there is no major selection to be done.
Let's go on to the second subject. Employment is the most basic issue for the majority of immigrants, because it will provide them with economic independence and enable them to start their settlement process.
What we have to examine is the speed with which they find their first job. You have here a graph that I will present quickly. This represents weeks. Week 0 is the week they first set foot on Canadian soil and week 140 is 140 weeks later. Here you have time passing, and on the other axis, the proportion of people who have not yet obtained employment.
.1550
At the time of their arrival, none of the people surveyed had a job. Gradually, they began to find a first job, so that at the end of the 140-week period, only 15 to 20% has yet to find employment.
The sharper the downward curve, the faster the process. Here we can basically see that the independent immigrants get their first job more quickly. It took about 12 weeks for 50% of the independent immigrants to obtain a job. In other words, by 12 weeks, 50% of the independent immigrants had got their first job. In contrast, 50% of the refugees had found their first job by 40 weeks. The speed at which the subjects settled varied from one category to another; the independent immigrants settled in fastest, followed by family class immigrants and refugees.
I'd like to add one particular note about the refugees. During a certain period of time, the refugees were slower to get employment because they were taking the Cours d'orientation et de formation des immigrants au Québec, learning both English and French as second languages. This is not a policy; it's more of a practice. The courses teach them how Canadian and Quebec institutions operate. So we have to be careful about this point: the fact that refugees logged behind in getting their first job was not their fault; rather, it was partly due to an institutional constraint.
However, once the refugees finished the Cours d'orientation et de formation des immigrants (COFI), they caught up with the independent immigrants, and so in the long term, there were only slight differences between the three categories and the people who were behind were able to make up for the delay.
This depicts the process of getting the first job. Already it can be seen that the admission class has an effect on the subject's getting his or her first job. People may get their first job, lose it, get a second job, lose it, get a third job, and so on, so you have to look at all the jobs for each week in order to get an overall picture.
Here are the results for the various admission classes. Over here you have the number of weeks, once again, and this shows the percentage of subjects who had a job during a given week. We can see that at the very beginning, about 16% of the independent immigrants were working immediately, the first week, and you can see that they always maintained a higher employment rate than the other two classes. Members of the family class and refugees eventually catch up to each other. However, the independent immigrants are more able to find employment.
When looking at these diagrams, you also must remember that not all people want to work. This is a sample of the adult population, and some of the subjects in this population are in school, which means that they are not seeking employment. Some of them are retired, while others are raising their family. So the 60% rate generally corresponds to the rate of adult Quebeckers in the job market during this period of time. It takes about one year for immigrants to reach this level, and after week 40 or 50, it remains stable at -
[English]
Mr. Dromisky (Thunder Bay - Atikokan): What percentage is women?
[Translation]
Prof. Renaud: Yes, I was about to get to that. Here's the same diagram, broken down according to gender. It reflects the general situation in society. That was not a problem for the women. They also tended to stay at home and raise their children. People are having fewer children, but they are still having them.
.1555
So the men were more likely to be employed than the women, but I should point out that the men were able to get a job much faster than the women were.
If I have the time, I will tell you some more about couples and employment. We observed that when the man was not employed, this put greater pressure on the woman to go out and work. This kind of analysis demonstrates this phenomenon at work.
[English]
Mr. Dromisky: Could you identify the kind of jobs these people found?
[Translation]
Prof. Renaud: Yes, I'll get to that point in a few minutes.
Here we have the same kind of diagram, to finish this portrait of employment among new immigrants over a three-year window, but this time, the diagram shows levels of education.
Those who have only a primary school education had a terrible time of it throughout the entire process. Over the three years of observation, they were systematically and chronically at the bottom, whereas it was much easier for the subjects with a university or other post-secondary education to get a job. They got jobs more quickly, and a high percentage of them were able to retain these jobs.
There is one drawback to what I'm showing you here. I must admit that this just gives you an overall picture. We cannot determine from this analysis whether this is a subject's first job or his thirthieth job. So we're not sure whether the person got a job and kept it, or got a job and then lost it, found another job and then lost it, and so on and so forth. Are these people just scraping by, or were they able to settle successfully?
[English]
The Chairman: Can we take you back to the graph? With the group's permission, the researcher has asked to ask a question.
Mr. Kevin Kerr (Committee Researcher): Could I ask a point of clarification? Is the population you graph there just immigrants who are looking for work - considered to be in the labour market - or is it the whole sample?
[Translation]
Prof. Renaud: It's the entire sample, people who are actively looking for work and people who are not. One hundred percent represents 1,000 subjects. This analysis does not make the standard distinction that you find in unemployment studies, namely, the subjects were not asked whether or not they were actively looking for work.
Each year, when we interviewed the subjects, we asked them questions about the year that had just ended. People can't remember whether or not they intended to look for work during a given week, so we thought that the results would be more conservative, simpler and firmer this way, rather than asking them to remember when they started to look for a job.
I was saying that the advantage of the graphs we just saw was that they showed the general settlement rates. Generally speaking, by the end of the first year, immigrants have a job. People in a few categories, namely refugees and people who only have a primary school education, have a harder time getting high rates, but generally speaking, for the major categories chosen, the conclusion holds.
Now I must show you the other side of the coin. It's not that things aren't working, it's just that they really have to try very hard. I'm talking about the whole aspect of looking for work.
The following graph shows the sequence of jobs that the subjects had. I'll show it to you quickly and I'll try to make this clear. ARR means ``arrival'', J means ``job'', to use the kind of French that was spoken before Bill 101, and N means ``no job.''
This other chart shows the probability of having held a whole series of jobs. If we prepare projections, we can see that 17% of the subjects will not get a job in the foreseeable future. So in the long term, 17% will not have a job, but that does not necessarily mean that they are looking for one. The remainder, the 83%, will find their first job.
.1600
Nineteen percent of those who do get their first job keep it for the entire period of the study. These people settle in Canada successfully, and they give the impression that it's all very easy. For instance, a university professor comes here and is hired immediately and keeps his job. Please note that this is the most common path. All the other paths occur less frequently. Their probability is given at the end. The most common single pathway is a successful settlement. The person comes here, finds a job and keeps it for the entire time that we can forecast, that is to say, the three-year observation window.
However, another group of subjects will lose their jobs. Eleven percent will remain in the system without finding a second job in the foreseeable future, whereas other people will move directly from their first job to their second job without any intervening period of unemployment. Please note that the most common path is the 19% group, and the second most common path is the 15% group, the group that goes from having a job to not having a job and then back to having a job. It's a question of investment on the immigrant's part, and things did not stabilize right at the outset.
I won't describe all the other pathways to you, because that would take too much time, but I would point out that they are relatively numerous and infrequent. A group of patterns emerges. There are all sorts of pathways and developments. Nineteen percent of the subjects were successful and kept their first job, whereas things were more complicated for the others who were in and out of employment. These employment rates are based on various comings and goings on the labour market.
A very detailed description is found in both documents, along with graphs that generally need no translation. They are easier to read that way. I just brought one or two images to give you an overall idea of the immigrants' settlement.
Here are the subjects' median weekly incomes. The people who were working right at the beginning already had a job, so their income is higher. Other subjects had an income at the very beginning; in general, they had a job waiting for them. So their income is higher too. Then come the people who found jobs.
The median weekly income grew over the three years of observation. I could have shown the same thing for the socio-economic status of the jobs, showing an increase in the number of people in supervisory positions as well as a whole bunch of other indicators. The overall picture is that in general, the jobs were at a slightly lower level than the Canadian average, but there was a noticeable progression over three years, so that it is reasonable to assume that in the long term, the subjects will get jobs that correspond to typical jobs in Canadian society.
I'm taking quite a bit of time. I hope you're not too angry with me?
[English]
The Chairman: No. Think of us as your ``C'' students in class and that will give you an idea of the length of our attention span. We're not the stars here in the House of Commons. If you're getting close to summing up, I think that would be good, but I don't want to have you miss anything that's -
[Translation]
Prof. Renaud: I'm two thirds of the way through my presentation.
[English]
The Chairman: Okay.
.1605
[Translation]
Prof. Renaud: We can quickly analyze what the immigrants thought of the work they had. First of all, they were asked if their work was more skilled, equally skilled or less skilled in comparison with the work that they had done previously. As you can see, 50% of the subjects responded that their work was less skilled than in the past, while 30% responded that their work was equally skilled.
These three columns represent the preliminary observation, the observation at two years and the observation at three years. The subjects themselves perceived relatively little change over time. We also carried out studies of objective measures of their previous employment and their current employment, which painted another picture.
[English]
Mr. Hanger: Before the witness goes away from that graph, I wonder if he would explain not only the three years but also the divisions within each year. I don't understand everything that's written up there.
[Translation]
Prof. Renaud: Each year, the immigrants were asked the following question: Is the job that you now have, at the time of the survey, more skilled, equally skilled or less skilled than the job you had before coming to Canada? In general, the immigrants had the feeling that their current job was less skilled than the job they had held previously.
They were also asked: Is the work you do similar to the work that you were doing previously, in your former country? Once again, depending on the year, between 30 and 40% of the subjects said they did the same kind of work. The subjects did the same kind of work to some extent, or different work than what they had done previously, which means that in terms of their settlement, they had to adapt and learn new things in order to adjust to the kind of work that is done here.
Let's return to my overall plan and look at point 3: sources of income during periods of unemployment. Up to this point, I've been talking to you about people and whether or not they have work. But you must understand that immigration isn't just about individuals; immigration is about families, couples, just like ourselves and our employment. Spouses share resources and provide economic support to each other. Both spouses don't necessarily need to work at the same time.
The first depiction of this is found on this transparency, which once again shows time. It shows the percentage of households that do not have employment income yet. You'll note that when we take the household into account, not the individual, in the case of people who have a spouse, 40% already have one employment income in the household by the first week, even if the individual being surveyed had no work himself or herself, whereas things move more slowly for single people.
What happens to the household during periods of unemployment? Let's look at it from the viewpoint of the household, not the individual, because the household is the true economic unit. People first turn to private sources of income. The three different colours here show the three different admission classes.
.1610
In the case of family class immigrants, the spouse's job was the main source of the household's income. This was much less frequently the case for the independent immigrants, and even more infrequent for the refugees, of course.
In contrast, between 75% and 80% of the independent immigrants used their savings during times of unemployment. That was the main source of income for independent immigrants during periods of unemployment.
There were also two sources of income that were truly private, or semi-private. They were family sources of income. You can see that the family class immigrants relied more on support from relatives and the sponsor than the independent immigrants did. This happened much less frequently in the case of sponsored independent immigrants. Finally, retirement income was an absolutely negligeable quantity in all categories. It did exist, but we'll just skip over that quickly.
The following graph shows sources of income that came from transfer payments, from government sources. During the first year in Quebec, the refugees collected COFI income first and foremost. These are payments to take the immigrant training and orientation courses. The other classes of immigrants made far less use of these sources.
The federal government meets the needs of refugees, but it provides direct support to the other two classes through subsidies that come from a special program for refugees. And as for family allowances, the only prerequisite was to have children. That just meant that the independent immigrants had more.
All three classes of immigrants collected social assistance. A higher percentage of independent immigrants collected social assistance. Hardly any of the immigrants had education-related income other than the COFI allowance, i.e. scholarships and that sort of thing. At the very beginning, none of them got unemployment insurance, but along the way, some people who had worked long enough did collect UI.
These two graphs show the size of the first source of income to meet the needs of immigrants, namely their savings. This was particularly true of the independent immigrants and the family class immigrants.
One might wonder how this entire set is structured. Here is a graph entitled ``A Factual Analysis of Connections - French Technology'' which places the variables side by side if they co-occur frequently. The higher the co-occurrences, the closer the two variables are placed. The lower the co-occurrences, the farther away the two variables are placed.
The independent immigrant class, the family immigrant class and the refugee class are shown here. You can see that there are three constellations of income sources.
During times of unemployment, the independent immigrants used their personal savings as their source of income. The members of the family class used the spouse's employment, as well as assistance from relatives and sponsors as their source of income, whereas the refugees used federal government assistance and COFI income as their source of income. The immigrants got income in different ways during times of unemployment, depending upon their admission class.
.1615
We asked immigrants this question: ``Do you have more savings, the same amount of savings or less savings today, at the moment of the study, at stage 1, stage 2 and stage 3, than at the time of your arrival?''
Here are the results. You'll note that these people said their savings were the same. So, clearly, the savings were used up until the end of the second year, but most people said they had the same savings in their third year of settlement.
Some people had more savings than before. They were becoming more prosperous. It's something that happens from the very beginning and which is maintained. People either have more savings or the same amount of savings. This holds true for most immigrants and the savings continue to grow.
People who had less savings, seemed to experience more economic problems, on an individual basis, in their second year of settlement. It's at this point that the greatest number of people told us that their savings were less than before.
Here is the last transparency. In conclusion, we asked immigrants the following question: ``Do you believe your current situation has improved compared to the day of your arrival?'' In the first year, the vast majority of respondents said yes.
In stages 2 and 3, when the immigrants had a better job situation, and when their place of residence became more stable, as well as their job, and so on, the feeling was that things were not going as well as when they first arrived. So there was an adjustment problem. In the first year, immigrants thought their situation was good because of the shock of being in a new place, but after a while, they thought they could do better.
That is what I wanted to share with you today. I would like to remind you that much more information is contained in the two documents, as well as in the series of articles which analyse the dynamics of settlement in the job chain and in other chains.
[English]
The Chairman: We will start off our questioning with Mr. St-Laurent.
[Translation]
Mr. St-Laurent (Manicouagan): I would like to begin by settling something. In your document, entitled Le portrait d'un processus, on page 18, you talk about the immigrants you monitor every week. Do you mean that you started by surveying 1,000 people and that by week 140 or 160, there was almost no one left for you to monitor? Or were you still following 1,000 people?
Prof. Renaud: I started out with 1,000 people and the quickest interview I did was in the 32nd week of settlement; so until the 32nd week, I asked 1,000 immigrants questions on everything.
Therefore, 1,000 people were interviewed during the first stage of observation and they provided us with data between the 32nd and 63rd week of observation. We could not interview everyone at once.
In the second stage, we went back to the same people but, this time around, 729 out of the original 1,000 responded in the second year. The reason why there were fewer respondents was because people moved to other parts of Canada. At most, it was 10% of the original group, but we should track them down. We still haven't found them.
By talking to neighbours, to friends and to people from the same ethnic organization, we discovered that a certain percentage of these immigrants had left. Others simply decided that they would not benefit personally from responding to the questionnaire. Some immigrants had the impression that they were under a legal obligation to answer the questionnaire the first year, but they realized that they did not have to respond the second year. You know, people receive countless numbers of questionnaires. So the number of participants fell to 729.
In the third year, we had funding problems. I had to limit the number of interviews to 500. If you look at the graph at week 140, you'll see that at least 500 people were contacted. Then, there was an interview at week 160, which was the last one done with immigrants after their arrival.
.1620
Since we are going to contact the same people in 1998 and 1999, those figures will shift. Fort the three years of our study, given our observations, we can't claim to have assessed more than 140 weeks.
Mr. St-Laurent: In your study, did you take homesickness into account? You mentioned the fact that immigrants go through a period of culture shock. I believe that an immigrant who comes to a new country finds everything is wonderful. But after a certain period of time, perhaps one or two years, this immigrant feels some nostalgia for his old country, and starts to feel that it may have been better after all. Did your analysis include an assessment of this attitude?
Prof. Renaud: No. The entire questionnaire dealt with objective data, except for five or six questions, of which you have seen half, which were based on a subjective assessment.
If you try to measure the feeling of homesickness or the psychological state of an immigrant, you'll face an important problem, because you're dealing with people who come from 110 different countries, whose cultures are extremely varied. Therefore, when you ask an immigrant what he thinks about a general subject, you don't know whether his answer will reflect his culture, or whether he feels he cannot respond to the question. It's extremely difficult for a researcher to collect psycho-social data on immigrants in their first year of settlement. So we simply stuck to the objectives.
Mr. St-Laurent: A little earlier, you talked about the relative rate of unemployment of immigrants in your test group. What is the immigrant unemployment rate compared to the unemployment rate of Quebeckers or old-stock Canadians?
Prof. Renaud: I can't make a direct comparison because I don't have data on whether people were looking for a job in the preceding month. You need that information to make a fair comparison between the immigrant unemployment rate and the domestic one.
However, the employment rates of immigrants and that of Canadians in general are more or less the same. Immigrants and Canadians in general seem to be affected to the same degree by unemployment.
Unemployment seems to affect immigrants the same way it affects the general population. In one of our studies, we examined the impact of unemployment on the immigrant's ability to find a job and its impact on his ability to keep the job. Fluctuations in the unemployment rate affect an immigrant's ability to enter the job market. Graduates face the same problem. So the impact is similar.
Once immigrants have a job, depending on the fluctuations of the unemployment rate, you might think that, since they were the last to be hired, they would be the first to be fired. But once an immigrant has found a job, an increase in the unemployment rate does not seem to increase the probability he will lose his job. His situation seems quite comparable to an ordinary Canadian's.
Mr. St-Laurent: Are immigrants more concentrated in certain sectors of the economy? Many immigrants work in the restaurant business and the like. Does it depend on their level of education?
Prof. Renaud: It depends on their level of education. The media project a certain image of immigrants. We are sometimes given the impression that immigrants are a problem because they ask for support. So we often think immigrants work in the restaurant business and in manufacturing, where it is said they are sometimes exploited.
On the whole, however, immigrants work in a great many sectors of the economy and have all kinds of jobs. There are no areas where they are highly concentrated. Our sample group has many independents who often have a university education. So immigrants really cover the entire spectrum.
Twelve or fifteen percent of immigrants have jobs requiring ten or more years of education. Many immigrants also work in companies which have between 11 and 100 employees.
.1625
They are salaried employees. However, over time, there is a perceptible increase in the number of self-employed people. In fact, immigrants reflect the patterns of Montreal society.
Mr. St-Laurent: So you say there are no highly concentrated areas. There is no specific sector to which 40% of immigrants find their way. They work in all sectors of the economy, just like you and me.
Prof. Renaud: It's as simple as that. However, that's usually not the way we perceive them.
Mr. St-Laurent: Indeed.
Prof. Renaud: You have to understand where this image comes from. Happy people don't make waves. Happy people don't make headlines and they are not members of pressure groups because they have been accepted as immigrants and because they work as university professors or engineers in a firm. You don't hear from those kinds of immigrants. However, you do hear of people who need help and who have to be part of a special interest group. A minority of immigrants take political action.
Mr. St-Laurent: I don't quite agree with you. Few politicians would agree that happy people don't make waves; we are happy and we try to make history.
Did you ask your people questions about their current quality of life and the quality of life they had before coming to this country, even though it would be logical to think they are leaving their country because they are not happy there? Sometimes a person will immigrate to be with his family which may have come over first.
Prof. Renaud: We don't have much data on that subject. All we have are consumer indicators, which don't tell us a lot about the country of origin. We don't have much data on the quality of life in Canada compared to that of the original country.
Mr. St-Laurent: That's all for now.
[English]
Mr. Mayfield (Cariboo - Chilcotin): I really appreciate your enthusiasm, the information you bring. A question occurs to me as we're going through it. Do you have any idea of how many people might say that this immigration project wasn't such a good idea after all and go back home or go somewhere else? Are you aware of any failures? What would the rate of that be?
[Translation]
Prof. Renaud: There are a few. We don't know how many, but our test group fell from 1,000 people in the first year to 729 in the second year. I think a grand total of two people went back to their original country. As for the rest, they moved to other places in Canada or refused to answer the questionnaire.
It seems that no immigrants returned home immediately after coming to Canada, which does not mean that no one in this group... However, it does happen, but it usually happens later.
We interviewed some immigrants from Lebanon who had been in Canada for three years. I know that some of these people were traveling back to Lebanon to see if the country had calmed down and if it was worth returning. So these people were assessing whether or not it might be a good idea to go back to Lebanon. But in three years, very few immigrants went back to their original country.
Canada does not have any exit visas, so we don't know how many people leave this country to go home again, which creates a problem. However, we are trying to track down these people through the IMDB, the data base on immigration which was created by inputting all the income tax returns immigrants filed from 1980 to 1988.
.1630
The income tax returns of immigrants were entered in chronological order. We can look them up and find out whether someone has stopped filing their returns. Since we also have access to death certificates, we know that an immigrant has not died and that he may have moved on or simply decided that paying taxes was not for him.
Studies using this database have barely begun. We should be able to obtain more information through the database, especially since it will be updated. We will keep on collecting filed income tax returns. The database is currently being updated and we were told that we would soon be able to access it. However, the administrative files are huge. So, we don't know... But it's the only way to find that information.
[English]
Mr. Mayfield: I have one more question. Then I'd like to turn it over to my colleague,Mr. Hanger.
Where I come from in the west, it seems as though there are perhaps three general categories. There would be immigrants who come with special qualifications and jobs waiting for them. There would be perhaps other immigrants who come who are not particularly well-qualified, but are able to get jobs that, even though there are fairly high unemployment rates, Canadian people are not very interested in. So they will take those jobs at the bottom of the spectrum.
I'm wondering how many people are in between in your study. How many immigrants are competing directly for jobs that other Canadians are searching for themselves? How much competition would there be in that? Do you have an idea of that?
[Translation]
Prof. Renaud: It's difficult to say. Immigrants compete in the same marketplace so they are necessarily competition. The question is whether an immigrant who lands a job takes that job away from another Canadian. On the whole, I believe they get jobs which other Canadians may want, but I must admit that I don't have any term to term studies on these matters. It would be extremely difficult to carry out a study by professional sector to see which jobs are in demand and which jobs have been filled by immigrants. Unfortunately, it's almost impossible to carry out such a study.
I have the impression that immigrants are not a problem. If anything, they make the economy more dynamic.
[English]
Mr. Mayfield: I wouldn't really argue with you on that at all. That wasn't really the point of my question.
Thank you very much.
Mr. Hanger: Professor, I am also pleased that you're here today. I'm always interested in learning a little more about the Quebec process. I understand that since you have your own immigration officers and points of selection, you can carefully evaluate, if you will, those whom you want to bring here. I gather that when you do make that evaluation, I would suggest that language is one of the key points you look at. They should be able to speak one of the official languages of Canada, and in particular, French.
Do you find there's a relationship - I don't know if you can make this comparison adequately - between language ability and integration into Quebec society as a major key for settlement?
[Translation]
Prof. Renaud: Yes, I have with me a horribly thick report on the issue. The Office de la langue française insists a lot on language, which is a fact and which makes an interesting subject. But first, I'd like to talk to you about a more general topic.
Montreal is one of the only places in the world where it's possible to evaluate the impact of language separately from the impact of belonging to a social group which speaks a given language. It's possible to find out whether knowing the language of a country is key to the integration of an immigrant or whether it is the fact that he belongs to a social network which, coincidentally, is francophone or anglophone. That's why Montreal can teach us a lot about this subject.
Language is a very curious thing. We are all attached to it, in one way or another. However, language is not the key factor to successful social integration, in fact, not at all. It is much less important than an immigrant's level of education, professional know-how, and other factors.
.1635
An immigrant's entry job and his knowledge of French or English does not affect how fast he will land his first job. In the long term, however, it will come into play.
In the long term, if an immigrant is in Montreal and speaks French, he will quickly move on to a second job and, chances are, he will keep his third job even longer. Therefore, his knowledge of French is key to his job mobility. But it doesn't mean he will get a better job, it only means he will be able to move from job to job and earn more money.
It doesn't matter if an immigrant knows English. At first, we thought that an immigrant's mobility was affected by whether he spoke French or English. But we soon realized that if we included in our analysis the fact that the immigrant was integrated into a French or English-speaking network, which is not quite the same thing, because you can be part of a group without necessarily speaking their language very well - A job is carried out in a certain language, but most of our social interactions are not really based on language.
So if an immigrant is part of a network, it is the network itself which is more important, and not the language. What counts is the fact that an immigrant is trying to become part of an new society and that he's trying to improve his lot. That is what helps a person move from job to job, much more so than language.
In fact, language plays more or less the opposite role. If an immigrant has a job he will take a language course but just taking a language course won't give him a job. It all comes down to networking, and to people.
[English]
Mr. Hanger: So you're implying that adaptability - I don't know how you weigh adaptability, other than that you might judge the individual on how he has progressed through the educational institutions in his own country. It's a difficult evaluation.
[Translation]
Prof. Renaud: I can assess how fast an immigrant moves from job to job in Canada, and how fast he finds a job, as well as how long he keeps a job or how stable it is; I can also measure how fast he finds a second job, and so on. In a certain way, the best way to measure adaptability is to focus on it. Stability leads to success. Since I followed immigrants on a weekly basis, I can see how fast each one progressed in many areas.
[English]
Mr. Hanger: May I have one more question? It's in line with what my colleague asked you. I've heard so often that there is a substantial movement of immigrants from Quebec into Ontario. I'm wondering if there's been any tracking of that particular point. I've heard numbers anywhere from, for instance, 25% to as high as 75%. But I've never seen anything in writing, any study done, to that effect.
[Translation]
Prof. Renaud: A joint study was done on that subject by Citizenship and Immigration Canada and the Quebec Ministry of Cultural Communities. It was based on the data base on immigrants and the income tax reports which I was talking about a little earlier. If I remember correctly, 17% of immigrants who settled in Quebec left the province, but they did not all go to Ontario, and about 10% came back. These were people who did not intend to go to Quebec, but that's where they ultimately landed.
Using that same data base, I started a study on the movement of immigrants between urban centers. It's an important phenomenon in terms of the provinces. Immigrants don't settle in ``Ontario at large''; they settle in Toronto or its metropolitan area, or Vancouver, and so on. I should have decent results in about six months. If you're interested, I can get back to you.
.1640
[English]
Mr. Dromisky: Dr. Renaud, could you tell us how you selected 1,000 candidates for your study?
[Translation]
Prof. Renaud: When immigrants arrived, I had people on site at Mirabel, Dorval, Lacolle, Blackpool and another entry point I do not remember. As soon as the immigration formalities were completed, the people would be given an enveloppe with six languages on it - my standard transparencies with jokes in Chinese, Arabic and a host of other things I don't know, to tell you the truth - asking them to participate in a study by returning the completed form to me. They usually filled them in on the spot.
Everyone headed for Quebec who entered the country via Vancouver, Toronto or other entry points in Canada had an invitation from the Quebec Department of Immigration, along with their visa, to go to the Department's welcome desk and there, they were offered standard services and were asked: ``Did you receive this form for Professor Renaud's study? If you haven't please go to the little room next door and fill it in.''
We selected 1,800 people using that process. Of the 1,900 people who went through border stations and were headed for Quebec, 1,800 agreed to participate in the study and we interviewed 1,000 of them one year later.
If I were to do it over again, I would do it differently. It was prohibitively expensive having staff at border stations, among other things.
We set up a system to find new immigrants and their addresses through the Régie de l'assurance-maladie du Québec (Quebec Health Insurance Board), but when I intercepted them at border stations, I had no address. I had the unconfirmed address of friends, a relative, an acquaintance, but generally speaking, they did not yet have any accommodation, so it was difficult to find them. So, that is the procedure.
[English]
Mr. Dromisky: I ask that question because you have a very large percentage of people in your study who have post-secondary education and university backgrounds. Normally those kinds of people would have a different type of attitude than people who have not completed the elementary division. I can understand that your results would be sort of tainted or possibly affected more than you were probably expecting.
Have you ever thought of doing a random selection of immigrants coming in to see whether or not the patterns are consistent with the patterns that have been established in this first study?
[Translation]
Prof. Renaud: We compared the survey responses with the data on file. This study deals with fewer immigrants from Asia than we could have expected in a random sample. As for other known traits, the information was on the visa. The information obtained from the sampling is the same as on the visa file.
[English]
Mr. Dromisky: What I'm driving at is that people who have better levels of education, in my estimation, would have greater chances of having more permanent types of jobs once they've become established in communities. For instance, many of your subjects are classified as independents. Were any of your candidates working outside the city of Montreal? Were they working in the bush camps, the mines, the hydro development projects or anything like that?
[Translation]
Prof. Renaud: No. The only people interviewed lived in the greater Montreal area, which is bigger than the census area. Otherwise I probably would have needed even more money. That covers 92% of the province's immigrants. The other 8% go to Quebec City or to work in factories with the research centres in smaller towns.
.1645
[English]
Mr. Hanger: Mr. Chairman, could I seek a point of clarification?
I don't like to interrupt the flow here, but just on the point Mr. Dromisky has raised, I think it all boils down to a selection. I assume with the data you've shown that random selection of 1,000 people is basically the make-up of the process you go through in selecting your immigrants. Would that be a fair comment to make?
[Translation]
Prof. Renaud: I am not sure I understood your question. The 1,000 are representative of all visa holders who came to Canada and were headed for Quebec.
[English]
Mr. Hanger: Mr. Dromisky mentioned that there seems to be an unusually high number of very well-educated, qualified people, but that is your random selection, is it not, because of the selection process?
[Translation]
Prof. Renaud: For 1989, independents made up 70% of Quebec's selection.
[English]
Mr. Dromisky: I think most important of all on this, Mr. Hanger, is what happened to the other 800. They looked at 1,800 in this study and chose 1,000. Did the other 800 include a vast majority of people who had less than grade eight education?
Prof. Renaud: No, they looked exactly the same. On that point, it's a good sample.
[Translation]
Things have also changed since then. If I were to redo a similar study today, I would have a lower percentage of independents because Canada's and Quebec's economies are doing worse than back then. Many independents have delayed emigrating, so the sample would have fewer independents and more families and refugees. Nonetheless, regardless of their number, independents will continue to act the same way: they will use their savings, etc.
Mr. St-Laurent: Of the immigrants who arrived - perhaps this was not part of your study, although you have data on employment, unemployment, etc - what percentage started a business? I would like to know if they often hire other immigrants.
Prof. Renaud: Some are self-employed upon their arrival. Some become self-employed thereafter. The percentage is on the rise. It reached 12% at the end of the third year, which is considerable. ``Self-employed'' is a vague term. Being self-employed is more complicated than people think. It is not just a matter of putting ``independent worker'' on one's income tax return. Everyone is self-employed to a certain extent. After three years, about 12% of those sampled had a fledgling business.
A significant number of immigrants are supervisors or are their own bosses. Some demand a supervisory position as soon as they arrive. So they don't all start at the bottom of the ladder. They find work at all levels.
You will find details on that in the third-year report, which provides more information than I could possibly give you verbally. It is much more difficult to pass on the information without my little drawings.
It is important to note that they are salaried workers, paid on commission or on a piecework basis. That is a perceptible trend, but not a marked one overall.
I focused on people who arrived in Canada with a visa. I did not include refugee claimants, who apparently have a much more difficult time settling. Some arrive here saying: ``Recognize me as an economic refugee in accordance with the Geneva Convention. Give me immigrant status''. Those people have a much more difficult time.
.1650
In a few months, I will be starting an equivalent study on refugee claimants and I am nearly certain all measured indices will be lower in terms of performance. Immigrants who arrive with a visa quickly behave like other Canadians. However, they are always under-average for jobs, but in terms of employment quality and income, they fare quite well. With refugee claimants, it is another kettle of fish, but I do not have any data on that.
Mr. St-Laurent: Thank you very much for your presentation.
[English]
Mr. Hanger: Have you been able to form any opinions on the attributes or skills that would enable an immigrant to settle quickly? You mentioned adaptability, and of course we talked about language. Certainly there are other criteria.
[Translation]
Prof. Renaud: The most important criterion is education, directly or indirectly. I tabled a document on that. Education is like a complete portfolio of one's skills. Without a good education, you cannot sell your past experience so education is marketable and highlights other attributes.
If there is one effective selection criterion, it is education. The higher one's education, the easier it is to settle and to sell one's professional knowledge in the Canadian market. Without any education, regardless of one's expertise, there are problems with credibility, etc. It is not transportable.
Education really opens the door to the job market. It is infinitely more important than language or anything else. Of course, people still ask whether you speak French and English and points are awarded accordingly. But education comes first.
There are two important factors in an immigrant's integration. Education is important because then the immigrant can sell his or her skills. The other important factor is the benefit for society. Language is not a benefit for the immigrant, but rather for society.
[English]
Mr. Hanger: The immigrant is going to succeed, and certainly that's going to be a benefit for society.
[Translation]
Prof. Renaud: Yes, and the immigrant pays back Canadian society by knowing or learning languages. That does not provide any immediate benefit to the immigrant, but it does to our society because we can then interact with the immigrant and that maintains our global identity. It is not a value; it is a different type of selection criterion. It is a selection criterion for society and not for the individual.
[English]
Mr. Hanger: On the process of selection, what percentage does Quebec take in the independent class?
[Translation]
Prof. Renaud: Of the flow of immigrants?
[English]
Mr. Hanger: Yes, the total number of immigrants. I don't know if you have those figures.
[Translation]
Prof. Renaud: In the sample used for the study, independents made up approximately 70% of the cohort. I would need more precise figures. Seventy-eight percent were independents, 20% were family and 12% refugees.
.1655
[English]
Mr. Hanger: That's significant.
[Translation]
Prof. Renaud: Yes. Most of Quebec's immigrants went through the selection process. I think that is one of the main reasons they integrate well.
[English]
Mr. Hanger: I agree with you there.
Do you take through the refugee flow those who have come through the inland process, or are your refugees solely selected overseas?
Prof. Renaud: They are solely selected overseas.
Mr. Hanger: So you would be able to look at the pool of refugees overseas and select those specifically that you want first.
[Translation]
Prof. Renaud: There is a refugee selection process. Technically, Canada makes a first selection. Then, Quebec intervenes to make its own selection from that group. The criteria are not discernable, but I have the feeling they are sometimes similar to the selection criteria used for independents.
[English]
Mr. Hanger: Another aspect of Quebec's immigration process is that the Canada-Quebec accord offers $90 million per year for settlement moneys. Last year the total of immigrants accepted by the Province of Quebec was in the neighbourhood of 27,000. Do you find in your studies that the needs of the new arrivals in Canada have been met through the programs offered by the province, and also by the federal government, to assist in settlement?
[Translation]
Prof. Renaud: I could not answer that. That was not part of my study.
[English]
Mr. Hanger: Let me put it in another way. Do you feel that there is a greater need for assistance on some of the newcomers and one that could be met through government programs?
[Translation]
Prof. Renaud: The settlement programs are important. Between 50 and 60% of immigrants attend school their first year in Quebec. They follow general programs or courses specially designed for immigrants or language courses. It clearly speeds up their integration.
I did a study on access to a first job and the various factors that came into play. One of the predominant factors was having taken courses at COFI, the Centre d'orientation et de formation pour immigrants. It was a factor, not because they learnt the language, but because they learnt about the ways of Quebec or Canadian society. With a COFI diploma, an immigrant increases his chances of finding a job sixfold every week following graduation, as compared to someone who did not take the COFI course.
It really is a great help in getting them settled in very quickly. I feel that is one thing that must be kept at all costs. Such programs are useful. I am not sure all programs are, but the COFI program clearly is.
[English]
Mr. Hanger: Do you know of the differences between the selection criteria in Quebec and those in the rest of Canada?
[Translation]
Prof. Renaud: They're quite similar.
[English]
Mr. Loney (Edmonton North): Professor, my first question was pre-empted by Mr. Hanger and your response to him. I do have another question.
In your analysis, have you been able to determine why more recent immigrants are having more difficulty settling in and finding employment than did the earlier arrivals?
.1700
I ask this question because I find evidence that the reason for that is when the earlier immigrants arrived here, they were competing for jobs among Canadians who were really not interested in those jobs. The reason was they didn't want to do that kind of work. It was considered to be too menial or the salary was too low. But now the more recent immigrants, because there are more of them, are arriving at a time when although they fit in better socially because of extended families and friends who are already here in Canada, they are competing among their own ethnic groups in that job market.
Did you find anything that would support that?
[Translation]
Prof. Renaud: I have no analyses on that. I would need a point of comparison with a cohort that settled here 30 years ago, which I do not have. If I were to think out loud, I would say the current difficulties probably arise out of a general economic malaise. Immigrants are not the only ones having trouble finding work right now; my graduate students are in the same situation.
We are in a period of belt-tightening. We are going through a period where the economy is less prosperous than it was, and the division of labour means that everything is called into question. That affects everybody, really everyone, including immigrants.
I am not under the impression that there is a specific process relating to immigrants around this. I feel, rather, that we are stuck with a labour market that is in a period of reorientation, redefinition and recalibration, if you will. Canadians and immigrants sometimes find the pill rather hard to swallow. But I don't think there is competition between immigrant groups. I feel that everyone is redefining competition itself.
[English]
Mr. Mayfield: In relation to what Mr. Loney has just asked you, you mentioned that there is a growing network for people of various backgrounds, cultures, and nationalities coming here. Would that network take some of the pressure off newly arrived immigrants to go out and seek work? Perhaps the utter necessity of having a job is a bit less than if there were no network. Is there any validity in that thought?
[Translation]
Prof. Renaud: The networks to which I referred are Canadian integration networks. These are networks in the broadest sense, groups of people through which information is exchanged to obtain employment or access to resources. That's how we function in everyday life.
Studies have shown that 70% of jobs are found through networks rather than through advertising. Networks are communities of people that we know. They are a support system that is our own support as well.
The networks that operate in Quebec are those formed by people who join French language networks. Essentially, they join these networks to have access to all the information that's circulated in society. So it's a system of normalization of relationships between the person and the community.
At the outset of the study, we were sure that the ethnic networks were extremely important factors. We determined that barely 15% of immigrants made contact with their ethnic association. An ethnic association is, at least in Montreal - perhaps not elsewhere in Canada, but in Montreal - an externally constructed reality.
It's easy to make a study of Portuguese immigrants. We go into the Portuguese quarter and see Portuguese people and institutions.
.1705
Well, typically, the Portuguese do not live in the Portuguese neighborhood, and this is true of all ethnic groups in the Montreal area.
One often gets the impression that there are networks built around associations or ethnic groups, but these networks are used very little by new immigrants. When the networks are used, they are multi-ethnic in nature. In Montreal, there is an Arabic-speaking group in operation. It includes people from various ethnic groups, Syrians, Lebanese, North Africans, Egyptians, etc. This is not an ethnic network in the sense of a community of identity. They have one thing in common and that's language.
[English]
Mr. Mayfield: You've mentioned that in the program in Quebec, Quebec selects the immigrants that come to that province. Are there criteria concerning job skills and jobs available? Would that make a difference between the province of Quebec and other provinces of Canada?
[Translation]
Prof. Renaud: I can't answer that question very precisely. I get the impression that on the whole, despite the differences, when we select people, we do the same thing. Quebec does not have policies that are vastly different from those of Canada in this area. Each has admission categories that are divided differently.
With regard to visas, there is one classification for Quebec and one for Canada, but on the whole, the processes are approximately equivalent. When independents are chosen, they are chosen according to the same criteria overall. The criteria are the same for families. For refugees, the criteria are so identical that Quebec chooses from a base already selected by Canada. There are no major differences in selection.
Quebec must accept a certain proportion of refugees, according to its share of the Canadian population. Therefore there's a very clear criterion about that. As far as the rest is concerned, there are no set standards. I'm not an expert in Quebec policy versus Canadian policy in this area.
[English]
Mr. Loney: Professor, as a result of your studies, would you recommend changes in the selection criteria for independent immigrants?
[Translation]
Prof. Renaud: First I would recommend maintaining the notion of independent immigrants, the notion of selection. It works. This produces different behaviours in terms of non-selected immigrant markets.
My only recommendation, if I had any to make, would be to say that we must maintain the selection process. If I were to add something, I would say that we have to give more points for education, which is the best adaptation indicator. Every time we've done studies on access to employment, duration of employment, access to housing, type of housing and mobility, education has always been an extremely important variable.
The most highly educated people are those who disperse the most across the country in terms of residential distribution. This is an important factor from every standpoint, but it's already in the selection criteria. It must not be removed; on the contrary, it should be strengthened somewhat.
[English]
Mr. Hanger: Mr. Chairman, I am wondering if there is an English version of this gentleman's report. Is there? No?
[Translation]
Prof. Renaud: The only copies are in French. A translation of the highlights has been done. However, both reports were largely designed to be glanced through like magazines, looking at the pictures. It works.
.1710
[English]
Mr. Hanger: Yes, it's quite comprehensive.
[Translation]
Prof. Renaud: It works. In general, the text is a description of the accompanying graphs. The goal is to facilitate dissemination.
[English]
The Chairman: We have the resources to get it translated.
Mr. Hanger: There are sections of it that I find interesting. Whether or not the committee wants to go through that at length I don't know.
The Clerk of the Committee: You could let us know what might be of interest to you in particular and we can send it, or the entire document, if you wish.
Mr. Hanger: It would be translated here?
The Clerk: Yes.
The Chairman: The other thing you could do is sit down with Christine, and if there's something you don't understand she could explain what it is and then you could decide whether or not you want to translate it. Or we could have the whole thing translated.
Mr. Hanger: Obviously Margaret must have -
Ms Margaret Young (Committee Researcher): No. I had access to other articles by Professor Renaud when I wrote my notes, but I hadn't read that.
Mr. Hanger: Mr. Chairman, I'd like to see the entire document translated.
The Chairman: Fair enough.
[Translation]
Prof. Renaud: If it can be of any help, I could provide the text so that you could have it translated. I would point out that there are a number of articles on this survey that were written in English. There are
[English]
articles on the residential pattern of new immigrants, new immigrant couples' income, the language spoken by new immigrants, and job mobility.
[Translation]
Some documents are already in English. It's the language of science.
[English]
The Chairman: The researchers from the parliamentary library would like to ask you some questions.
Mr. Kerr: Did you find in your sample there was a relationship between the ability to speak French and the level of education?
[Translation]
Prof. Renaud: No. It's largely separate. The people who spoke French upon arrival are people who came from francophone countries such as Lebanon and Syria. Others had learned it on the job, in school, etc.
A significant proportion of people spoke French or said they did, which is a whole other matter. A significant proportion of the visas stated ``speaks French'' even though, in fact, it doesn't necessarily mean that. That's a problem concerning the visas. The visas of independents are validated for the main applicant. In those cases, there is an interview and there's some assurance of what ``speaks French'' or ``speaks English'' means.
In the case of persons other than the main independent applicant, or in other admission categories, no validation is done. Therefore it's self-identification. On the self-identification form, in the third year, people stated that they knew less French than they had claimed in the first year. They therefore became aware that they had exaggerated their knowledge of the language.
[English]
Mr. Kerr: Maybe I'm being misunderstood. What I'm asking is whether you found that among those with the highest level of education a higher proportion spoke French than among, say, those who had just grade school.
[Translation]
Prof. Renaud: I don't remember the exact details, but from what I can recall, a very high level of education seems to go with English, because that's the language that's virtually essential for scientific communication, but the same is not true of French. That phenomenon does not exist for French.
In addition, we have to realize that refugees who are selected in camps where Quebec did the selection came from countries with a French culture. Often, these refugees had no education, therefore there is no strong link between knowledge of French and education. There's a slight link between knowledge of English and education. However, this is a very slight link because English is the contemporary lingua franca. Everyone, whatever their social origins, knows a bit of English.
.1715
[English]
Mr. Kerr: You mentioned that your sample comprised - if I have the numbers correct - 68% independent immigrants; 20% family class; and 12% refugees. Is that representative of Quebec's annual intake?
[Translation]
Prof. Renaud: It is representative of refugees who arrived on a visa in or around 1989. But things have changed somewhat since then. There are fewer independents today than back then.
If you add immigrants filing their claim at the border to those who arrived with a visa, then the figures change completely. Most immigrants who apply at the border are not independents. The difficulty is in determining when they become landed and when they can be included in the figures.
The total number of immigrants arriving with a visa and those applying at the border in Quebec in 1989 included 45 to 50% of independents and not 68%.
[English]
Mr. Kerr: A couple of witnesses who appeared before the committee suggested that Canada should include in its assessment criteria some consideration for the economic characteristics or attributes of the principal applicant's spouse. We understand that Quebec's selection criteria do take that into consideration, and I was wondering if you're in a position to describe to us how that works operationally.
[Translation]
Prof. Renaud: I don't know. However, I do know that birds of a feather stick together. It is the phenomenon of ``homogamy''. I don't think there's much point in assessing the spouse since in general couples have the same characteristics.
This is also true for the children of immigrants. The applicant arrives not only with a spouse but also with children who are often adults and who share common characteristics. Families are often selected and you only need to look at one member of the family to get an overall idea of what the family itself is like.
I don't know exactly how the point system works in Quebec. Someone explained it to me once, but it really isn't my field, and I can't recall what was said.
I do remember that in Quebec the parties concerned don't know which of the spouses is the main applicant and you have to ask them for their visa to find out. Often, both will apply, but only one becomes the main applicant, since they enter as a family. Unfortunately, I'm not an expert in this field and I wouldn't want to mislead you by going any further.
[English]
Ms Young: To clarify a little bit, I had the advantage of reading one of the articles you had written, and it was there that I learned for the first time that the sociological literature did not support, perhaps, the current emphasis on language ability as a factor for settlement. I want to explore this a little bit further with you, because it seems to me to be both counter-intuitive and definitely against the conventional wisdom.
Within the last two years the federal government has increased the importance of language ability for selection, other than in Quebec. We've had witnesses in this committee who have said: by all means consider age and education, but language ability is very important; put greater emphasis on that. The federal government has announced that in fact they're going to be modifying the point system in order to do that. Are they wasting their time?
.1720
[Translation]
Prof. Renaud: No, they would not be. The sociological literature in Australia, Germany, the United States and Canada has in every case demonstrated the impact that language has on getting a job and the negligible impact it has on the amount of money an individual earns.
One of the papers I've given you is entitled ``New Immigrants, Language and Job Mobility''. One of the reasons why language has no impact is that its effect will vary at different points in the settlement process. For example, if an immigrant speaks French, he will move more quickly from his first job, but that same knowledge will keep him in his third, and other jobs, longer.
If you look at the big picture, you are left with the impression that the language factor is unimportant.
Many papers have been published on the effect of language. They have always concluded that linguistic knowledge has no impact and yet this seemed so illogical as to be impossible.
The only paper that has succeeded in demonstrating the effects of language in a reasonable way is ``New Immigrants, Language and Job Mobility''. Language has opposite effects depending on the point you focus on in the settlement process. If you do not isolate that particular point in the settlement process and instead take a sample without finding out when each of the immigrants arrived, then there is no way to determine what effect language has.
Language is important when it comes to mobility and long-term job stability, which is of course important, but no one had noticed that before. My study is the first of its kind on immigration, the first to put specific dates on events. A similar study has been published in Australia, and a similar one should be published in Canada in the near future. France has also begun a study, but because it was unable to set up a proper sequence of events, the authors were unable to determine exactly when language ability did have an impact.
My last point on language and access to jobs is that contrary to what was thought, language is not an important factor in the very beginning. It is never a factor when immigrants look for their first job. Quite simply, people need to work and earn a living. Whether they speak the language or not, they will go to any lengths to find a job. So their knowledge of the language is not an important factor when they arrive, but it is later on.
[English]
The Chairman: You mentioned you support the point system, with refinement. You support an independent class. Do you have an opinion on the ratio of independents to family class? Is the current ratio about 1:1 or slightly more than 1:1 for independents to family class?
[Translation]
Prof. Renaud: Yes, but my opinion isn't necessarily based on an analysis.
[English]
The Chairman: That's all right.
[Translation]
Prof. Renaud: It is very important to maintain independents as the main category because it is the only category where we have any control over the occupational status and other characteristics of immigrants. We have no control over the family class.
If the independents were to become a minor category, then I think that would be very harmful because immigration would be reduced to a family reunification and relay system, and this is something that society would take a poor view of.
It would be difficult to defend the system politically as being beneficial to Quebec's democratic and economic development. It would enhance the demographics, but not our economic development.
.1725
[English]
The Chairman: I don't have anything else.
Mr. Kerr: Could I revisit one point, Mr. Chairman?
You mention that language is an important consideration in terms of job mobility, moving from the second, third, fourth and fifth job. It seems to me it would be extremely important in obtaining one's first job, as well.
You mentioned something early on in your presentation that seems to support that view. That is, your analysis of why the refugee group was taking so long to get a job attributed it partly to the fact that they were in language training. So the fact of not being able to speak one of the two official languages certainly acted as a constraint for that group anyway in getting their first job.
[Translation]
Prof. Renaud: I was of the same view for many years. I tried very hard to determine what effect language had when immigrants first arrived but I had to give up. The example you just gave is a good one: the problem is language training does work, not because of the linguistic aspect, but because immigrants learn how society works in these classes. That is more important than learning the language.
In other words, pure language training is not as effective as the COFI immigrant training courses are. I can only conclude that this is due to the socialization immigrants benefit from in the COFI classes. Language and language training have no effect on immigrants finding their first job. It doesn't matter what language they speak or what language they learn.
In Quebec it doesn't matter what language is used in the workplace, because once an immigrant has a job, his chances of taking language training increase considerably. Employment improves language skills much more than language skills improve the chances of getting a job. That's the way it works. When immigrants get a job they realize that the language spoken in this part of the country is French and that they have to learn it. But having the language isn't what helps an immigrant establish himself.
You said that language has an impact on job mobility, but that isn't the case. What is more important is the network an immigrant belongs to. If you compare language with participation in a given network, language has very little effect. What is important is whether an immigrant is involved in a French-speaking or English-speaking network. In Montreal, they are better off being part of a French-speaking network. It has nothing to do with their knowledge or ability to express themselves clearly in a given language. What is important is that they are involved in a community which uses a given language.
For a long time I was convinced that you were right, that language was a major factor, and yet every time I thought I had the statistics to back this up, I couldn't prove it. Language is important for building a social and political vision in Canada, but it isn't much help to an immigrant who has just arrived. Society is important. Language is important for immigrants to be able to communicate with us. It is a way for them to reach out, but it is not a marketable skill.
.1730
[English]
Mr. Kerr: Thanks, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman: Okay.
I thank you very much. Normally these sessions run 45 minutes or so. The fact that we've taken two hours is I think a tribute to the interest we have in your work. I say that as a real compliment. I think the fact that the members left is more a sign that they have busy lives. But I generally believe they found your presentation interesting. I thank you for coming to the committee.
[Translation]
Prof. Renaud: Thank you very much.
[English]
The Chairman: On one last point, the minister has asked the main committee to look at the whole issue of settlement over the summer.
We're planning possibly a trip to Montreal. I don't know if you'd have any interest - not so much technical as in terms of the economics - in having your chance, through the committee, to give the minister your advice on our settlement programs and the settlement programs in Quebec. I would recommend to the committee that they hear from you, if you're interested.
Prof. Renaud: I would be glad to.
The Chairman: Okay.
We are adjourned.