[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]
Wednesday, June 7, 1995
.1544 
[English]
The Chairman: Order. We are continuing our consideration of private members' business for votability. We are going to hear from three members today. The first one is Mr. Crête, on motion M-403.
.1545
Welcome, Mr. Crête. We usually hear from our members for no more than five minutes, and then we may have questions following that.
You may begin.
[Translation]
Mr. Paul Crête, MP (Kamouraska - Rivière-du-Loup): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
The motion I've moved has to do with the development of the Canadian Post Corporation. If we look back, the Conservatives were highly concerned with ``streamlining'' the structure because, let's not kid ourselves, the Canadian Post Corporation has had a lot of problems with efficiency and viability. The authorities carried out an operation which, in my opinion, was a bit overdone, but which, at the same time, helped modernize the corporation.
Following the election of the new government, a moratorium on the closing of small post offices was declared and the minister announced his intention to establish a different kind of development for the Canadian Post Corporation. For instance, rather than saying that a greater number of small post offices were going to be closed, there was talk of giving them a new direction. My motion moves in the same direction, because I speak of integrating in the development plan a strategy in support of the local development of regions and municipalities.
This type of motion would force the Canadian Post Corporation to consider, in its action plan, not only purely economic viability criteria, but also local development factors. For instance, we might say, after carrying the motion, that Canada Post should formulate a post office development policy and ponder over the types of government services that could be provided at these post offices.
There are presently terminals in Canada's manpower centers or in old age security pension offices. Similar terminals, in different post offices, could be used as points of contact. There could also be photocopy services provided to the local community, because not everyone in these communities can necessarily allow this type of service. These post offices could provide government services in general.
Moreover, we should try to avoid negative situations, such as the experiences carried out this year: RRSPs were sold in post offices in a region such as mine, and competed directly with the Movement Desjardins, which already has facilities, which pays capital costs, etc... The motion specifies that the strategic development plan of the Canada Post Corporation must take into account the effects on local and regional development, so that this measure does not appear to fall from the sky.
As Post Office critic for the last year, I think that there was a movement following the moratorium imposed by the government on the closing of post offices, but that that movement quickly ceased. The Canada Post Corporation must get a clear message from the House of Commons, in the sense that we want this tool not to be just a basic one, which is to say to deliver mail cheaply, but also that there be a framework of concern for local and regional development and that it ensure that the decisions it makes do not have greater negative effects than positive financial ones.
That concludes my presentation.
[English]
The Chairman: Mr. White.
Mr. White (Fraser Valley West): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I would like to know, sir, if you wish this motion to be considered exactly as written. My concern is the last line, ``of regions and municipalities in Quebec and Canada.'' Is that the way you want this motion considered, as written?
[Translation]
Mr. Crête: The text might have to be slightly modified. The significant element is the reference to the development plan and the strategy in support of local development. The regional and municipal aspects might be taken out or specified, but the significant element, to me, is that in the Canada Post Corporation development plan there must be a strategic aspect which takes care of the impact on regional development.
.1550
Mr. Patry (Pierrefonds - Dollard): Mr. Crête, I don't know what my colleague, Mr. White meant. I think that maybe he was referring to the fact that you mentioned local development of municipalities and regions of Quebec and of Canada. He brought up the fact that Quebec would be included in Canada if we simply wrote ``municipalities and regions of Canada''. I suppose you have no objection to that?
Mr. Crête: No. In the present context, for as long as I am part of the Canadian system, I want it to serve the citizens of my region in the best way possible and I won't argue that part.
Mr. Patry: I think that's what he meant. I have two questions to ask. First of all, you mentioned that RRSPs were being sold in some post offices. Who sold RRSPs? This perhaps isn't quite related, but...
Mr. Crête: It was an agreement between the Canada Post Corporation and the National Bank, which didn't have a branch. I've nothing against the National Bank, but all of a sudden, one morning, it advertized in the weeklies that it was providing this service during the tax period, which seemed to me to be unfair competition, because the other institutions have capital costs, have facilities, etc...
Mr. Patry: I agree with you. In that case, would you see in the small post offices, such as there are many in our region in the province of Quebec and also in Canada... There will certainly be cuts carried out at the Department of Human Resources Development. Unemployment Insurance offices are being cut. Would you see these post offices being given a new role or an additional role, for instance a 1-800 line or information on everything having to do with unemployment insurance, etc...? Could you imagine that within post offices?
Mr. Crête: Yes. At the present time, Human Resources Development Canada already provides the opportunity, by making the promoter pay, to set up this type of terminal. The Canada Post Corporation should, in the context of its promotion and marketing plan and in order to improve its institutional image, accept to install 100 of these facilities that cost $5,000 each so that at each local community there would be a service area where a senior citizen... We will now be able to list people who register for unemployment insurance directly and feed their resume into the database of these machines, in rural areas. It will have a major impact.
Mr. Langlois (Bellechasse): I would like to add to that. In several rural municipalities, Mr. Crête, there aren't even any public telephones anymore. They have often been vandalized. In France, in the PTTs (Post Telegram and Telephone offices), a variety of services are provided: fax machines, amongst others, and the ability to weight one's mail. I think that they are a lot more versatile than here, where we're stuck in one area. If that area is attacked every which way, it can no longer compete. That's mostly what you meant, in your presentation. You might include that.
Mr. Crête: Yes. At the same time, your questions make me think. We're speaking of very ad hoc situations, small post offices, but in the Canada Post Corporation strategy, we might integrate some things. Before deciding that the mail for Lac-Saint-Jean should be processed in Quebec and that Rivière-du-Loup's mail should be processed in Rimouski, we should look at the effects of that decision on areas such as ours. This type of decision involves social costs, and obviously it has to be as cheap as possible. Also, Canada Post has to consider its reputation, as far as this type of decision is concerned.
The Canada Post Corporation is still a significant investment tool throughout Canda. They are the people in charge of delivering mail throughout. So that is a continuation of the federal government's actions, which, as a government, must be available to its citizens. I think we should, if we want to continue to express the minister's desires as formulated in the moratorium, ask the Canada Post Corporation to carry out this work, which is to say to affirm in a certain way those wishes expressed by the minister during the moratorium.
Mr. Langlois: In many places in Quebec, and it's probably true elsewhere... For instance, Mr. Morrison posts a letter in his riding of Swift Current - Maple Creek - Assiniboia, to be sent to a municipality five miles away. The letter might end up going 500 or 600 miles before reaching its destination, five miles away. At what level are these policies decided and according to what justification? It's interesting to debate this. I'm living it right now. You post a letter from Saint-Michel-de-Bellechasse and, to go to Bromont, it must go through Sept-Îles. It's quite ridiculous.
.1555
Mr. Crête: It's similar to an industry that's being completely changed by technology: there are those same types of changes. Presently, the Canada Post Corporation has a purely mechanical concern. It's a corporation that has been truly upset by the approach of people who very methodically calculate the number of minutes of work.
I'll give you an example. Presently, in the little post offices of cities such as Rivière-du-Loup, there's one person responsible for sorting and one person responsible for marketing. Often, because there's no boss responsible for both things, there are aberrations. The sorting person is only concerned with costs, but actually, when you want it to cost as little as possible, it has a negative impact on customer services. On the other hand, the marketing person must sell as much as possible.
In any small business or franchise, there is a boss who tries to balance things out. That's the kind of thing we could ask the corporation to reflect on.
[English]
The Chairman: Do you have any reservations about the difficulty in inserting into the Canada Post Corporation mandate a mandate such as this, when it is my understanding that Canada Post has an existing commercial mandate to deliver the mail and basically forget about being an extension of the Government of Canada? Do you have concerns about going back in time and restructuring the corporate mandate of Canada Post?
[Translation]
Mr. Crête: Unless I'm mistaken, in the motion's wording, there's a lot of leeway for Canada Post because it is stated, at the beginning, that: ``Ask the Canada Post Corporation to integrate into its development plan a strategy.'' So we're telling them that as majority shareholders, we are worried about that aspect; what are you doing about it?
As to the most touchy part of your question, I'd mentioned that at the other extreme, the Conservatives, when they carried out their closing operations, used the sole justification of economic viability. The elastic snapped at a certain point because people were so dissatisfied that they put pressure on their elected representatives who overturned the government. It wasn't just for that reason, but that was one amongst others, that a moratorium was granted.
In business, you must satisfy the customer and to satisfy the customer, you have to take into consideration those kinds of factors. If we just set the cheapest price possible, at a certain point, there will be an impact on the service and people will not be satisfied. I'd think it'd a healthy thing for Canada Post as well as for the government, to include that into its mandate.
The Chairman: Okay. Is that it?
Mr. Crête: Thank you. When will I get an answer?
The Chairman: Wednesday afternoon.
Mr. Crête: Okay. Thank you very much.
The Chairman: Thank you.
[English]
Mr. Langlois: Mr. Chair, Mrs. Venne is sitting on the justice and legal affairs committee. She was scheduled to appear before us at 3:30 p.m. I would respectfully suggest we hear her tomorrow at 10 a.m., because we have another witness scheduled at that time.
The Chairman: That's a good suggestion. That's probably where you and I would be, over at the justice committee, if we weren't here; at least I would be over there.
Mr. Langlois: Yes, I would be too.
The Chairman: So that's understandable. I think the Barreau du Québec is there today.
Mr. Langlois: Is it agreeable...?
The Chairman: Not available this afternoon nor tomorrow morning.
[Translation]
The Committee Clerk: Mr. Mercier told me he wouldn't be available because the House is sitting all night.
Mr. Langlois: I'll phone him, because I have his number. If he can't come tomorrow morning...
.1600
[English]
The Chairman: They are just upstairs. We could all walk over there.
I'm sorry, Mr. Morrison. You're definitely next on the schedule. We're ready to hear from you. You can fire away from right where you are.
Mr. Morrison is going to make a submission in connection with motion M-434.
Mr. Lee Morrison, MP (Swift Current - Maple Creek - Assiniboia): I presume you gentlemen all have the text of the motion.
Some hon. members: Yes.
Mr. Morrison: So I'll dispense with reading it.
The question of national significance is the thing you are most interested in on these bills. There's no question as to the national significance of the energy industry. It accounts for $45 billion in annual economic activity, which is 7% of the GDP of Canada.
I'll commence my presentation with a negative. A lot of people are of the impression that the energy sector is only regulated or primarily regulated at the provincial level, but this is not true. If you look specifically at one board, the Atomic Energy Control Board, AECB, it is the major player in the regulation of that portion of the energy industry.
There is an enormous overlap, provincially and federally, with the activities of that board, because particularly at the extractive level, you have the provincial mining departments making regulations, the provincial environmental departments making regulations, and you have the federal environmental departments making regulations, all in one sector of the energy industry.
It would be highly desirable, to say the least, for there to be some overall cooperation between these various competing agencies in the regulation of the nuclear industry. This is one thing I would certainly address if I were able to bring this motion to the floor of the House.
The second major national player in the regulation of the energy industry is, of course, the National Energy Board, which controls all interprovincial movements of oil, gas, and electricity. It also controls the import and export of energy on an international basis. Again, in the purview of the National Energy Board, you do get overlap directly with provinces with offshore boards, which are joint provincial-federal entities that regulate what goes on under the sea.
You also have the federal government making regulations, both through the National Energy Board and through Natural Resources Canada, for the energy industry as it exists in the Northwest Territories and frontier areas. Again, you have a hodgepodge of rules and regulations that the energy industry has to abide by.
You also have, again, the problem of competing environmental agencies, federal and provincial, that impinge very heavily on the energy industry. I know they are not supposed to be energy regulators per se, but they have a tremendous amount of influence on the energy industry because of what they do.
.1605
You do get instances where an energy project will be approved at the provincial level and then disapproved at the federal level. Instead of a one-window licensing process, you go from A to B to C. This can result in an energy project - I'm thinking particularly of a dam that was built in Alberta some years ago - where you have competing authorities who all think they're in there to regulate. They all don't necessarily sing out of the same songbook or in the same key.
So I think there is a lot of scope in there for a rationalization of the regulations. It would lower the cost of doing business for the energy industry and thereby lower the cost to consumers. It would speed up certain processes that again would be good for the overall economic benefit of the country.
Basically that's my pitch. I don't think I need five minutes. That is what I have to say and I'd welcome any questions you may have.
[Translation]
Mr. Langlois: Mr. Morrison, when Hydro-Quebec builds a dam in Quebec, environmental studies are commissioned by the provincial government, and then the federal level wants to start the whole thing all over again.
Is your motion intented to bring about greater harmonization or to avoid duplication? When some environmental studies have to be done - and in such cases I do understand that they might be necessary - they should be done simultaneously, with similar criteria on both sides, federal and provincial, so that taxpayers won't have to pay twice for the same study, as well as to avoid a considerable waste of time and energy, and any tug of war between civil servants at various levels. At the end of the day, the victim is always that taxpayer.
Mr. Morrison: Absolutely. We should have only one inquiry, and that's it.
Mr. Langlois: That's absolutely clear. Thank you.
[English]
Mr. White: I'm looking at the wording of your motion where it says ``streamline administrative and regulatory processes in the energy sector''.
I'll have to ask the chairman first.
Are these motions debated based on the wording as they are presented? In other words, someone could look at that and ask whether it is provincial, municipal or federal or whether that is all of it.
I guess I'm looking at the motion the last person presented. Something really bothers me about the wording of it.
Once this gets to the House, is that the exact motion debated, or do you need a formal amendment to it?
The Chairman: Subject to whatever the clerk might advise, there wouldn't really be an amendment. There is no process for amending a motion other than with the unanimous consent of the House, which doesn't happen very often in connection with bills or motions on private members' business, but it has happened.
With regard to the wording of the motion, in the sense that beauty is in the eye of the beholder, the party who debates the motion will choose to pick on the wording or the general concept as he or she feels fit.
Mr. White: I thought that's what the answer would be. I was just checking.
The Clerk: Mr. Chairman, are you speaking about amending the motion before it's debated in the House?
The Chairman: Yes, or simultaneous with it.
Mr. Patry: At the beginning the debater could say he or she would like to move, seconded by someone in the House, to amend the motion before it is discussed.
The Clerk: The mover would amend his or her own motion?
Mr. Patry: Yes.
The Clerk: Normally it would be another debater who would amend the motion. A motion should be able to stand on its own as it goes into the House and not need amending.
Mr. Langlois: I think the mover could ask for this consent at the very beginning.
The Clerk: Yes, certainly.
Mr. Patry: If there's consent there's no problem.
The Clerk: Absolutely.
.1610
The Chairman: Colleagues, the difficulty always is that if you change your business immediately prior to the debate, you will run the risk of misinforming all of our colleagues who had notice of the motion as it was. That's usually an unfair practice. However, for a simple technical...a very simple, non-controversial amendment, that wouldn't be a major problem.
Mr. White: I judge my decisions on the issues, the motions and the bills placed in front of me here at this table.
The Chairman: That being the case, we should make our decisions based on the motion as it is now.
Mr. White: Yes.
I know you've been in the energy sector for some years. What is the impact of all of this duplication? Is it time, money, or all of that? What is the exact impact?
Mr. Morrison: The impact is primarily time, but when you're dealing with very large investments, time is money, because delay, in turn, costs. It doesn't matter what field of activity you're in. But time really is of the essence.
Over and above the time and money application, if you will, there is also the frustration factor where occasionally - and I must admit this is a rare occasion - a project will never get off the ground, because one level will say, yes, let's go, and then the next level will say, no, that's not going to be allowed. This can cause difficulties.
Mr. White: What is the prevailing decision-making body in energy? Is it the federal government? Can they override most of the energy issues in this country?
Mr. Morrison: No, they can't. There are certain aspects of the regulatory process where the feds have the ultimate authority. This applies primarily to interprovincial movement of energy. As I mentioned, it also applies to the frontier areas.
Within a provincial jurisdiction, for example, the National Energy Board has no real clout. They regulate pipelines only when those pipelines actually cross the provincial boundaries, although ultimately most of them do.
But the big problems are not so much with these boards that are designed specifically to regulate the energy industry; they are with the Department of Environment. There, nobody knows who's in charge. I say that quite literally. It's a mess.
If we debate this in the House, we have to be aware that in the end we're speaking only for the federal side, because we can't dictate to the provinces. But we can send a message. That's what I would like to do.
Mr. White: Thank you.
The Chairman: Mr. Langlois, do you have any questions for Mr. Morrison?
Mr. Langlois: Not for Mr. Morrison but for Mr. White.
What was the problem with the wording of Mr. Morrison's motion?
Mr. White: I was looking at processes in the energy sector and I was curious as to whether the motion was really representative of a provincial, federal, municipal or any other governing body. When you say ``energy sector'', does that mean the federal or provincial energy sectors or all energy sectors?
Mr. Morrison: ``Energy sector'' is a generic term, Randy, referring to that field of economic activity. It doesn't refer specifically to a piece of the energy sector regulated by any one political jurisdiction. Energy sector is an economic term.
The Chairman: Mr. Morrison, you also wished to include the regulatory burden of environmental assessment review.
Mr. Morrison: That's correct. That is part of the regulatory burden of the energy industry. I don't think it's necessary to write it into the motion. This is something all sectors live with.
The Chairman: Okay. Ça suffit?
Thank you very much.
[Proceedings continue in camera]