EVIDENCE

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

Monday, October 7, 1996

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[English]

The Chair: If this is Monday, this must be Yellowknife.

We have with us today, from Northern Addiction Services, Bob Dowdall, president; and Don Irwin, executive director; Dale Graham, the clinical director; and Carol Macek, senior counsel. We're looking forward to hearing from you. I see that you have a brief. I don't know if you want to review that for us and then let us ask questions; I'll leave it in your hands. Many people do it that way, or they just let us go to questions.

Mr. Bob Dowdall (President, Northern Addiction Services): I thought we could start by doing that, if it's the normal way of doing things.

The Chair: That's fine. Go ahead.

Mr. Dowdall: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen, Madam Chair. My name is Bob Dowdall and I appear before you today in my capacity as president of Northern Addiction Services. In real life I am the owner of an employment service here in Yellowknife.

We at Northern Addiction Services appreciate the opportunity to appear before you this morning, for the link between addictive behaviours and criminal activity is direct.

I am certain that you will agree that much criminal activity can be linked to the immediate need of that person to meet other needs, such as finding the price of the next bottle, a hit of a particular substance, or to feed a gambling addiction.

Before proceeding, I'd like to introduce you to those at the table with me today. They are Don Irwin, our executive director; Dale Graham, our clinical director; and Carol Macek, senior counsellor of our substance abuse program for youth.

It is our intent today to provide you with a brief summary of the services offered by Northern Addiction Services, including a summary of our treatment philosophy for youth. Don Irwin will then provide you with a profile of our typical client, if there is such a thing. We have asked Dale Graham, who joined us recently after a period in Cape Dorset where he was the director of social services and thus was a recipient of our services, to address the issue of resources in one of our more than50 remote communities. Finally, one of the responsibilities Carol has is in the coordination of her intake and discharge planning. I expect she will tell you that we have clients not only from the Northwest Territories but also from the Yukon. Further, I am advised that we are in the final stages of receiving our first client from Davis Inlet. There is thus a national need for resources such as the ones we have available.

Northern Addiction Services was established in Yellowknife in 1973. At that time our mission was to provide assistance to those persons in Yellowknife who had difficulty with alcohol. It was necessary to broaden our mission statement to include drugs almost before agreement was reached on our statement. We have now found it necessary to add inhalants and solvents. Don will show you in more detail that almost all of our clients today are addicted to more than one substance. Our board has also been asked to consider the addition of programs for other addictions such as gambling, tobacco and eating disorders.

In short, I expect we will become an organization that deals with addictive health care problems. In our detox assessment centre our clientele come from all over the Northwest Territories. Admission is encouraged through our detox assessment centre in downtown Yellowknife, where we have five assessment beds and four or five cots that can be used for observation purposes. At this time of year we're almost always at or beyond our capacity.

The vast majority of our monthly average of 150 clients come from the western Arctic. Yellowknife is situated near a number of Dene communities such as Dettah, Ndilo, Lutselk'e and Fort Rae. A significant number of Inuit persons are also admitted. Both groups outnumber the non-aboriginal persons who come to the centre.

The primary purpose of the facility is to provide a safe spot for those who are under the influence of a chemical. Our frequent customers are provided with a meal and asked to leave early in the morning in order that we can attend to those persons who may wish to address their substance abuse problems. To provide a bit of a continuum of care, we also have our rehabilitation centre. Those persons who wish to enter a residential treatment program are referred to our 28-bed facility on the Dettah Road or sent to a facility closer to their home community.

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Again, the number of aboriginal people is extremely high. It is also a surprise to me that a number of local aboriginals, most of whom are Dene, only slightly outnumber the Inuit. We have not been able to attract a large number of non-aboriginal people to our facility. The vast majority of our non-aboriginals go out or south for treatment. The GNWT has tried recently to limit the number who travel to southern resources.

[Technical Difficulty - Editor]

Mr. Don Irwin (Executive Director, Northern Addiction Services): ...``My oldest brother saw me and I felt guilty. At times he hardly talked to me any more.''

She was hungover, sleepy, skipping, hanging around a bad crowd, lying to her family and stealing at Northern - the Northern store, which is the main focal point in many of our communities.

In 1992, plastic wood, two ounces. She did that once in a long while, perhaps once every two to three months. This made her physically sick, with headaches, passing out, and memory problems in school. She started not to like school. That same year she was into spray paint, half a can. How often? She tried it once. The police caught her. They sent her home to her brothers. The parents grounded her for one week. Her brother was using as well.

In 1993 she had increased from two to three cups to five to six cups of home brew. She did that once in a long while. This caused her to fight with her sisters and brothers. In 1993 she was also into rum, liquor, four to five ounces. The family was mad. She quit school; blacked out; was throwing up. She took perfume and Tylenol - three to four ounces of perfume and 49 pills of tylenol. She concluded that this was a suicide attempt. She had an overdose and was hospitalized for that.

In 1994 it was hash; 10 to 12 hoots twice a week. This gave her headaches. It made her lazy, tired, she had a poor memory, she was hungry, and she was not in school. In 1994 she also used over three joints of marijuana twice a week. Again, she got headaches, got in an argument with her ex-boyfriend, got pregnant when using. So she was using when she was pregnant. She was hungry, sick. She was with a bad crowd, fighting with the ex-boyfriend, experiencing physical abuse, no food, and was not taking care of herself. She said she would rather use drugs than eat. She was kicked out of her sister's house. When we were here she took vitamin pills, approximately 100 at a time. I'm not sure why she would ingest that kind of vitamin.

In 1995 it was home brew, increasing to six to eight ounces on a weekly basis. At this time there was violence within the family. She said her brother punched her in the face. She would argue with her brother. Her brother wanted to call the government or social services or whatever. She said he didn't care if they took her son.

In 1995 she was still using 10 to 12 hoots of hash three times a week. So the rate of hash had increased. She was also using torch propane. She described herself as being lonely, bored, scared, hungry, angry, having very bad headaches, tired, having difficulty calling her baby, guilty, having a poor relationship with her family, cheating, sleeping with boys.

In 1995 she entered a treatment facility, Northern Addiction Services, and she distinctly described herself as feeling happy. It was the first time that she began to see what had happened to her life.

Madam Chair, I think this is a typical case we see in our youth facility.

What I would like to do now is ask Dale Graham to pick up on this story. Dale spent a significant amount of time in Cape Dorset, where he was director of social services, and he will describe the problems he faced from that angle. Thank you.

Mr. Dale Graham (Clinical Director, Northern Addiction Services): Good morning, Madam Chair and members of the committee.

I want to try to illustrate how the services provided by Northern Addiction Services in Yellowknife impacted on an isolated community on the south shore of Baffin Island. I was the director of social services in a community that had transferred to municipal control. I believe it was the second community in the territories to do so, and there was a significant amount of time between the community transfers.

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I was brought in to run income support, child welfare, probation and parole, drug and alcohol treatment, services for seniors, services for the physically and developmentally challenged, and cemetery supervision and maintenance.

The Chair: What did you do in your spare time?

Mr. Graham: It was a relatively high profile kind of job.

The Chair: That's why you're here.

Mr. Graham: That's why I'm here.

I also provided program support for two municipal council standing committees: social services and alcohol education.

Cape Dorset is an alcohol-controlled community where application must be made and approved to bring, own, or use alcohol within a 25-kilometre radius of the hamlet office.

The way we used Northern Addiction Services was to deal with a fairly chronic problem of solvent abuse. For those members of the committee who may not be aware, it was my impression that the use of solvents was related to economics. If you have money, you will use a soft drug or alcohol. If you don't, the intoxicant of your choice will be a readily available solvent. That could be anything from gasoline to household cleansers, hair sprays and the like.

In Cape Dorset, the purchase of all of these commodities, including yeast, was controlled. If there was any suspicion about why you were purchasing these materials, you weren't allowed to have them. It was because the problems of abuse were so rampant and so widespread.

You can imagine that because of the type of work I was expected to perform, I had a rather unusual and unique perspective on this community. I believe there is only one other woman in Iqaluit who had a similar range of access to information responsibilities in the community. We discovered that as we were effective in the treatment of solvent, alcohol and substance abuse, the rate of criminal activity dropped in a small proportion of our population. For example, Northern Addiction Services contacted me shortly after I was in Cape Dorset, because across the territories people were very interested in looking at how we were going to be able to run services from the municipality that had formerly and historically been directed by Yellowknife. Of course, on site we had a great deal of accurate, current information that might not have been available to the GNWT staff simply because of the logistics.

Of those targeted kids, we sent children to NAS knowing that it was an acute care facility. I did send children there, young people who, in my mind, were exhibiting features of organic damage. They were not treatable, but perhaps containable. We did that because we had an open-ended invitation. This is part of a peer group.

My background is as a therapist. I have an MSW. I've worked in southern Ontario sinceI graduated in the early 1980s.

I knew that to deal with adolescent problem behaviour was difficult enough, but to be invited to send an entire adolescent peer group is extremely unusual. I hadn't seen that before. The dynamics are much more intense, as you can imagine. The result of that six-month program was that all of the kids who came through the program and came back to the community maintained sobriety. There was one particular fellow who - with this exception - was exhibiting signs of severe damage: impaired short and long-term memory, inappropriate expression of emotions, mercurial outbursts of temper. All of these children were well known to police and had the usual range of problems in school, including truancy, no real direction, very limited or non-existent family-support systems. Even this particular fellow was less of a problem in the community, noticeably so, because rather than causing damage or trying to steal to support his habit, he was able to return to us and ask a responsible adult for advice and opinions.

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In itself that may not seem like a big step, but for us it was a step in the right direction because we no longer had to involve ourselves with RCMP and the school each and every day, and for some of these children that was the regular course.

We also noticed that - and I really can't say definitively whether there's a causal link here - because of the activities that we were engineering with young people in the community, we saw a reduction in suicides. In the two years I was there, there was one suicide in an outpost camp. As you are probably aware, we are in an area that has inordinate levels of suicidal behaviour and successful suicides.

In Cape Dorset, in the Baffin region, we had inordinate levels of most of the social problem indicators. My belief is that the courts may not have the full range of tools at their command that they require in order to deal with the problems. The courts may be seeing a symptom of much greater, entrenched, underlying life issues and problems that an organization like Northern Addiction Services is able to address. Its focused treatment program for children and young people is able to address these issues and problems. Not only did we have the child deal with his substance abuse...I would say almost categorically that every child has a history of two or three different types of abuse. Those were issues that also came to the forefront.

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Northern Addiction Services dealt with the child who may or may not be a problem for the courts currently, but certainly had been, who was exhibiting signs of a very limited future and a very limited potential, who had a history of abuse in the background and who didn't know how to use the supports that were being made available.

Out of that composition, we ended up, after a six-month period, with young people who we were able to access. At least on a talking level, we were able to provide sufficient support so that the young person himself was able to make more effective decisions.

Thank you very much.

The Chair: Thank you.

Ms Carol Macek (Senior Counsellor, Substance Abuse Program for Youth, Northern Addiction Services): Good morning, Madam Chair, ladies and gentlemen. My name is Carol Macek.

I have worked with the Northern Addiction Services youth treatment program for the past two years. Throughout that time, I have worked with approximately 70 youths from approximately20 communities across the NWT, including Yellowknife and, most recently, the Yukon.

Most of the youths who have attended the treatment program at NAS are young offenders and have been involved in such things as underage drinking, drug usage, theft, vandalism, sexual abuse and violence. Many of these youths have been convicted more than once and finally get sent to treatment after a lengthy involvement in the legal system. Other youths that have not been caught but are involved in illegal activities are also a problem for the communities.

There appears to be a high correlation between drug and alcohol abuse and criminal activities. Many youths are high or drunk while committing illegal activities such as vandalism, violence, sexual assaults and theft. Money is needed to support drug and alcohol addictions so they commit thefts of money, alcohol and property, regardless of the long-term outcome for them.

Most of the youths that attend the treatment centre have emotional problems such as anger, depression, suicidal ideations, loneliness, fear and grief. Many come from an abusive or drug-addicted or alcoholic home life. Many are kicked out or have dropped out of school. Many feel hopeless and state that when they are high or drunk their problems are gone for awhile. For many youths, this escape from reality is worth breaking the law.

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As a treatment centre we face many problems. Youths come from many remote communities. Travel is limited and costly. Youths are sent to treatment without family or counsellor support. Many communities do not have adequate or qualified staff to do proper assessments and predisposition reports or to identify court issues. We do not receive adequate background information or the psychological reports we need to assist us in the overall treatment of the youths. Youths are not always prepared for treatment and become very homesick and angry.

Along with treatment, staff encourage youths to talk about their feelings, their problems and their past behaviours. Youths attend healing circles, teaching circles, lectures, one-to-one counselling sessions and recreational and cultural activities. A holistic model of treating emotional, mental, spiritual and physical aspects of the body is a key element in treating drug and alcohol addiction.

Once the youths have completed treatment, they face another major challenge. Many youths return to their families and communities without the emotional and physical support they need to remain drug free. Many communities do not have after-care counsellors, probation workers or social workers who are trained to address the needs of youths. Many families are actively involved in alcohol and drug abuse. Many peers are still drinking and doing drugs.

Youths will return to criminal activities if they do not stay chemical free. Youths will do anything to support their addiction if it makes life more bearable than their sober life. I believe the Young Offenders Act would better serve youths and their communities if counselling services and addiction treatment were utilized more, especially when crimes are of a violent nature or involve drugs and alcohol.

Family counselling, family treatment and training for workers in the community are needed so the youths can have the support and guidance they need to stay out of trouble and make healthy choices. Untreated youths become untreated adult offenders.

In conclusion, youths in trouble with the law need family support, positive role models, intensive outpatient counselling, in-patient residential addiction treatment, and hope.

Thank you for your time.

Mr. Dowdall: Thank you Carol, Don and Dale.

I hope that within this relatively short period of time we have been able to demonstrate something of the magnitude of the problem in the north. Given the interest shown in our program for youth, I suspect that the problems are not limited to the north.

What does all this have to do with the Young Offenders Act? What would we urge you to consider in your review of this legislation?

First, we believe that the Young Offenders Act as it stands now has much to offer. One of the fundamental principles of this act is that the offender be encouraged to accept responsibility for his or her behaviour to the extent that he or she is able. We believe that young offenders should be encouraged to accept a sentence that makes them aware of the consequences of their behaviour. This is one of the fundamental principles we use in our work with our clients.

Any amendments to the legislation must be sufficiently flexible to reflect the needs of the youth. Any sentence passed must reflect the youth's acceptance of responsibility for his or her behaviour to the extent that he or she is able.

One of the philosophies of the Alcoholics Anonymous organization is based on the fact that alcoholism is a disease. As such, one never gives up on an individual. We have found that it may take six to nine months for a youth who has been using substances containing acetone to rid his or her system of that product. Flashbacks and other outbursts are a regular occurrence during this period. By comparison, alcohol is gone from our bodies in 72 hours. Our judges need to understand some basic pharmacological facts about chemicals and the impacts on the human body. Is it not more constructive to house a young offender in a facility where this type of behaviour is understood and can be managed appropriately?

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We have not addressed the need for prevention. As a country, we are being asked to do more with less. Should we pull resources from the adult system and divert the resources that remain to our youth?

Any amendments to this piece of legislation raise a number of moral issues. Unfortunately, our board, which I represent today, has not had time to debate these issues. As a consequence, much of what has been said today reflects our personal value systems.

As a committee you must make some difficult choices. Good luck with your deliberations.

Thank you for your attention. We are prepared to answer any questions you may have.

The Chair: Thank you.

Mr. St-Laurent.

[Translation]

Mr. St-Laurent (Manicouagan): Your use of words was interesting and intriguing at certain points. You spoke, for example, of people who go south instead of using the services they might have here.

But in the first place I would like to have some general statistics. Have you compared, for example, the young offenders rate in this area with the one that is found in the cities, in Saskatchewan or Alberta? Do you have a comparative rate?

Next, do you have comparative statistics concerning the people who need close attention, for example closed custody, and concerning the degree of seriousness of the offences? I'm not asking you for details, but for general statistics, if you have some.

[English]

Mr. Dowdall: I'd like to ask Don to respond.

Mr. Irwin: Madam Chair, I think Mr. St-Laurent's first question about the comparison of rates of crime should be addressed to the justice officials who will follow us.

As for the second question, in terms of supervision, since Carol is directly involved, perhaps she might want to comment on the struggles we've had.

Ms Macek: I can answer the first question a little. Prior to coming to the Northwest Territories I worked in Saskatchewan at a 30-bed treatment centre. Compared to the north, the rate of young offenders is relatively the same. Most of the kids that we treated in Saskatchewan were involved in illegal activities. Some were caught and some weren't, but most of the kids had been involved in illegal activities to support their drug and alcohol habits. I haven't found a big difference coming here from Saskatchewan.

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In terms of a secure facility, many of the youth we get in treatment right now need to be watched very closely. Many of the youths are withdrawing from chemicals - drugs and alcohol. They tend to get very angry and very homesick. They do run away and have to be found, or they come back. They need to be monitored 24 hours a day, very closely. Some are suicidal so they need to be monitored every 15 minutes. There is a need for high security in terms of monitoring in the centre.

[Translation]

Mr. St-Laurent: You talked about the success of the six month program you conducted. On the one hand, you talk about this success, and on the other hand you say it takes from six to nine months to eliminate any alcohol or drug habits from the organism of those people. I would like to see where you situate yourself in that comparison. Also, what are, in your opinion, the reasons for the success? In conducting this program, you open up better communications. Is it the creation of activities within the framework of the program that keeps the individual more occupied, and thus a little more active in a positive way? What are the reasons for the success?

[English]

Mr. Graham: Thank you. It's a very interesting question. I believe we were successful in maintaining the clients that came through NAS because my entire focus, my background, is in the mental health environment. That means we offered counselling first.

When the young people came back to Cape Dorset we were prepared, because I understood what an outpatient support system required. We were able to implement portions of that system in Cape Dorset. In fact, it was very compatible with the traditional lifestyle. I wondered whether there would be a point of demarcation between an urban style, where we're used to mental health services, and here in the north, where very often people have no real understanding of how counselling, which we might all understand, works. In fact, I think the exact way you framed your question is the reason why treatment was successful.

You can imagine that while you may be detoxing for nine months, for six months of that period you have an intense intimate relationship with a staff of adults you can trust. For anybody in that kind of environment, with the burden of emotional and social problems, it can provide an enormous relief.

You can also imagine how the young people develop relationships with staff over the course of six months. One of the key elements in effective treatment is rapport, and there's the ability to form a relationship. Although we may not have enough time to deal with all of the problems a young person may have, we have enough time to demonstrate that there is a process - a way of making a connection with another human being and finding out how to solve problems.

The young person is sent back into the community with a capacity to connect with support systems that we know they will need. Your illustration points out that this is not over in six months, but unlike a charge or a sentence, after six months we're not restrained. We can have a relationship that's ongoing. In fact, up until just a few weeks ago, when a person from Yellowknife returned to that community, we found that the kids were still maintaining effective patterns of life. They weren't using.

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The relationship goes far beyond what's stated in a policy. It's as far away as a telephone call, and we know that's how we are connecting with the children through our program. It's a bit expensive but they have access to it.

We happen to feel that is critical to our work. We're doing it without much recognition by our systems that it's a small but key part of our effective treatment.

Thank you.

[Translation]

Mr. St-Laurent: You talked about various theories and various successes. Your program is a big success, but I never heard you say anything about the participation or possible participation of the parents in the process. Where do you put them in the program?

[English]

Mr. Graham: The opportunity for parent involvement is problematic, for a couple of reasons. It's something that we encourage, but Carol illustrated the difficulty we have getting information out of the community. In order for us to develop an effective treatment plan, we need a relatively accurate and detailed history of that person. In a lot of our communities we have staff who mainly lack the training to be able to put together information and organize it in a way that's useful to us.

In some cases we're not clear whether the families are well informed about what we're doing. In other cases, families are given the opportunity and choose not to employ that option. Our work would be much more effective if we could involve the family in our work. It would probably mean two things. One would be to bring the family into treatment as a portion of the treatment program. The other would be to have some connection between our programming and the community, and work with the family. We could certainly do that by extension through existing staff if it were there.

Unfortunately, it gets into a side issue about the training requirements in order to support this kind of approach. The involvement of the family is integral to the effective treatment of children. Perhaps you can look at us as being a very poor substitute for that natural system.

The Chair: Mr. Ramsay.

Mr. Ramsay (Crowfoot): Thank you, Madam Chair.

I'd like to thank our witnesses this morning for their testimony.

The story you have given us this morning is a depressing one to me, and more so when I realize you have indicated to the committee that you haven't addressed the cause of some of the problems with youth.

The parents have the greatest responsibility for their children. We heard from an in camera witness two weeks ago who would like to see perhaps more court sanctions on parents to involve them in programs, to involve them in their responsibilities to care for their children and provide for the emotional, spiritual and physical needs of their children.

How do you feel about that? Would you recommend to the committee that we consider legislation that would give the courts tools to involve parents? What's the point of sending a child through a program and getting him straightened out when you send him right back to parents who are irresponsible in terms of providing for the needs of that child?

Two weeks ago we heard that incest and sexual abuse are going unreported in some parts of this country. That's unacceptable to me. When we look at the first line of responsibility, we have to look at what is causing the problem within the family. Why is that child not receiving the emotional, physical and spiritual support that a child needs - that a human being needs - so that the eventual result is not contact with the criminal justice system?

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I can ask you this question and simply wait for your answer. Do you feel that we can do the job without involving the parents? If we can't do the proper job without the parents, then would you perhaps consider something that the old Juvenile Delinquents Act had, which was the sanction of the court to involve the parents with their children who became involved in crime or in acting up in school and out of school, where they were indicating clearly that they needed help and assistance they weren't getting from their parents?

Would you support these legal sanctions that would give the courts tools to deal with the parents in relation to their children?

Mr. Dowdall: Unfortunately, as I indicated in the brief, we have not had an opportunity to prepare a position from the perspective of Northern Addiction Services. However, I feel quite confident in leaving your question open to our staff to answer as they see fit from their personal points of view.

From the Northern Addiction Services' point of view, we believe in a holistic approach in the treatment of substance abuse. Tools that would allow us to involve the entire family and the entire community in our treatment of substance abuse or of addictions of any kind would certainly be welcome. But from a more technical point of view, I invite our staff to respond.

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Mr. Graham: Involving the parents is necessary. Right now, their commitment to supporting their child in treatment is porous and generally inadequate. If it is within your power to lead the parents into a commitment with us, I ask you to do that.

We are privy to information because of treatment, and it gives us a very accurate picture of what's going on in the communities and in families. For families with parents who are not cooperative, that information itself - the relationship we have with the child - can become a liability to the family, in the sense that if there's anything untoward going on, even a hint of it, we will know about it. In a way, we offer an extended blanket of protection because of that relationship. If a child is sent to us this month and the family knows that we have an ongoing relationship, oftentimes the damaging behaviour can be modified or stopped because there's some vigilance.

We don't necessarily have a very clear mandate to do that, but there's that common understanding: if there's anything going on in your family that's troubling to that child, if somebody's hitting that child, if something is going on that's affecting that child, we'll probably know about it, and it's that probability that seems to work to our advantage.

If you are ordering families to be involved or telling parents that they need to be involved, you're pointing out the obvious. I think it would also be necessary to make it quite clear what provisions are going to be in place if they do not comply. That would be an important asset for us because it wouldn't necessarily affect our treatment or our relationship with the families. That could be something for the courts, the lawyers and the entire process to work out so that it doesn't encumber our relationship with our client.

Mr. Ramsay: Would anyone else like to comment?

Ms Macek: Yes. I agree with Dale Graham's statement. So often one of the saddest jobs in treatment is sending clients home when you know they are going home to families that are abusing drugs and alcohol, to families that are not supportive. I think it would be good to have more family involvement, and if that means through court orders or through probation, I think it would be good.I definitely agree that the family needs to heal together with the user.

Mr. Ramsay: Mr. Irwin, would you like to offer your personal views?

Mr. Irwin: Mr. Ramsay, from my involvement with our client population I'm very sad to say that in terms of their stories as they begin to unfold, virtually every one of our clients has been the victim of sexual abuse.

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As the client proceeds through treatment, so often the client also becomes a perpetrator, not only perpetuating the problem...but in terms of abusing their own children, and it becomes a very vicious circle.

I'm skeptical about involving the parents simply because of that fact. We can make a number of requirements of the parents, but unless we have some ability to enforce that it can be relatively meaningless. So I'm rather skeptical about our ability, other than to work one on one and try to help them leave their past behind them and get on with life, in terms of a future plan.

Mr. Ramsay: Would you turn a sexually abused child back to the family that caused the sexual abuse? How do you handle that?

Mr. Irwin: We had a case like that not too long ago in which we tried very hard to develop an alternative plan for the young lady involved. The stepfather came to Yellowknife from one of the communities, virtually on a hunt for his stepdaughter, I think.

So what do we do? We have, first, an obligation to the young girl involved to let her know that her stepfather is on the prowl. Secondly, we did our best, and are doing our best, to alert resources in the community that this individual is in the community and to prevent further occurrence of this abuse.

Mr. Ramsay: Do you advise the RCMP when it's clear that Criminal Code offences have occurred?

Mr. Irwin: Yes, we will.

Mr. Ramsay: Have you been doing that?

Mr. Irwin: Yes.

Ms Torsney (Burlington): Why aren't the parents charged on their sexual abuse? Where are the rest of the partners?

Mr. Irwin: I think if we take a look at that one situation, my understanding is - and Dale, you're more intimately involved than I - we were encouraging this young girl to go to the police with the information and charge her parents. I don't believe that's come full circle yet, has it?

Ms Macek: Many times the parents are charged or investigated. Many times there is not enough information.

If a sexual assault happened when they were younger, say 10 or 12 years old, and now they're15 years old and they're talking about it...many times the youths are scared. They do give a statement, but a lot of times the details are confusing or there's not enough information, so many times there's not even an investigation. So the youths do go back to the family, to their homes, unless there's a lot of clear and concise information, or if it has happened to two or three other people and the information is together. Then you would see a conviction. But very rarely do you see a conviction.

Ms Torsney: One of the things we've noticed is in certain provinces or certain areas of the country there is a better marriage of child welfare legislation and the Young Offenders Act. I gather from some of the descriptions of the programming you're doing, you have done that here.

Certainly, in talking about children under 12, it looks like you're managing to help them and it looks like you're doing post-detention things, or post-sentencing, or whatever. How are you delivering those services?

For instance, in Ontario, where I'm from, you fall into a different ministry's responsibility. When the ministers came before us, it was only the Solicitor General and Attorney General. They didn't want to talk about the education component or the community and social services component.

Obviously if children still have access to you and your services all the time...I gather you are using some social services dollars, or you're just being creative. Which is it?

Mr. Graham: I imagine our president will speak about the finances here, but I think you'll find that we're stretching and bending and making a penny go a little further.

Our background is as social workers, and our work is to make the system function. The approach we're taking is well documented. It follows the person, and our customer or client is that individual, not the larger system. If they're going to go through educational systems, correction systems, and the mental health system, we have a person who can follow that child or that individual.

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Often we're able to reduce unnecessary duplication. Often we discover an enormous amount of duplication and ways by which we think we could save some money for the system. When you have a mandate, as perhaps I did in the Baffin region, where I could float between different areas of jurisdiction, then it certainly makes it much easier to control information flow and guarantee some security, but also information gets where it needs to go very, very fast. All these things factor into what you're saying.

But our president may have some comments about financial restraints.

Ms Torsney: Keep in mind that the minister left the room.

Mr. Dowdall: I certainly wouldn't want to leave you folks with the impression that we have complete control of the situation. We were talking just this morning about the fact that we have an eight-bed facility and we could sustain a thirty-bed facility. I think that's enough of an example. While we like a positive face on our work, and I'm very, very proud of our staff and the work they have done - and they've done some great work with some of these children - we certainly are only touching the surface.

Ms Torsney: One of the things we've just introduced, or are discussing introducing, legislation on, or have legislation on, is on high-risk offenders, some sort of post-monitoring. I wonder if it wouldn't be a really good idea for young people that it doesn't matter that the term of your sentence is finished or you've done your treatment, there should be some way someone in authority checks up on you or you have to report to from time to time, someone who can check if your eyes are glassy or if you're still in school or whatever else. Would you support something like that?

Mr. Dowdall: Certainly. I personally feel the after-care is as important as the initial contact with the child.

Ms Torsney: One of the things some people are advocating is that in all our communities we should have full publication of anybody who has been charged under the YOA; their name, and possibly their photograph, should be in the local newspapers and things. Would you be supportive of that?

Mr. Dowdall: I would want to look at that a whole lot more closely before I commented on it.

Mr. Graham: There might be another way. You might find that what you do is drive problems underground - not that the intention isn't quite honourable, but it may have an undesirable effect.

Ms Torsney: I'm not one of the ones who believe they should be fully published.

The other thing some people are advocating is that we should be moving the Young Offenders Act to govern very young children - under 12 years old. In the example you gave us, Don, the child was 9 when she started into solvent abuse. Would a legal answer be better for these children, rather than a social services response? Are you able to deal with children who are under 12?

Mr. Irwin: Yes, we are able to work with children under 12. I've had some experience, in thatI was part of the group that put this legislation together 20 years ago, and I know how hard it is to draw a line somewhere in terms of that age. I think there are a number of reasons why we should give serious consideration to moving it down to perhaps 10 - that's a very personal opinion - just given the age and stages of development most children go through.

Ms Torsney: Down from 17 as well?

Mr. Irwin: We're going to find kids at 7 -

I was talking to our president and I said, you know, with this tobacco act we've created a whole series of problems for ourselves, because we've made it against the law to provide tobacco to kids, and we find kids, 6 and 7.... When they begin smoking and they come into our treatment program, cigarettes are a way of life for them. We can't give them cigarettes, and we find they're busy out on the street picking up butts.

This is a legal solution to a problem and it has only created more problems. We need to think of the consequence of such things as that, if we continue to use law as the hammer to force people to behave in a certain way.

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Ms Torsney: You should make sure you let the Minister of Health know your dilemmas on access to cigarettes for children under 18. I don't think anyone has raised the arguments that they might be getting into worse things or they might be picking up butts or they're already addicted at6 and 7 years of age. It's certainly another twist on the issue.

The only other thing I want to understand is developing the idea of responsibility among the parents. Clearly, there is some legislation if they're aiding and abetting in crimes, and if they're not fulfilling their responsibility there are other ways to deal with it.

But under the Young Offenders Act a young person has committed a crime. Would you actually want a system where the parents are also charged as part of the Young Offenders Act? Or should they be charged under other Criminal Code legislation?

Are you just asking for perhaps two different opportunities for sentencing, one where the parents are cooperative and another where they're not? Again, if there are two different systems, I would imagine the one where the parents are cooperating would be somewhat more lenient and more effective. So somehow you're further punishing a kid whose parents won't agree to be supportive.

Do you feel that we're entering kind of a quagmire here?

Mr. Graham: It could be a quagmire, but it might also be more like a chess game. If, for example, we had a developed, graduated system that - perhaps the end result would be a charge - enabled us to also assess the family capability without treating every family as if they have the same qualities, characteristics and strengths, this would give us the kind of detail that we would need in treatment. There may be reasons why a family can't be connected with a child, and I think it would be inappropriate to lay charges in all cases.

However, if we were able to establish a criteria, and the incentive, let's say, might be something like a very expedient in-and-out system for our very cooperative families, I think it would work ideally.

But for some families anything that we might do against their child would be considered useful leverage. The dysfunction of the family becomes more pronounced because the system gets involved, and by not complying with a court order...if the punishment or the penalty was only on the shoulders of the child - the child would be in detention, the child would be away from the family - then I see how a distorted relationship between parents and a child might be exploited further.

On the other hand, if criteria were established that would enable the courts to provide for a period of assessment to enable us to determine the commitment of the family, we would be able to do that fairly readily. I think the courts are certainly well versed in the use of assessment tools, and this just might add another dimension that would be useful in the decision.

Ms Torsney: Are you involved right now in pre-sentencing assessments?

Mr. Graham: No.

Ms Torsney: Maybe that would solve some of the problems or offer some opportunities.

Mr. Dowdall: I like the phrase ``offer some opportunities''.

Ms Torsney: Yes.

Mr. Dowdall: There are certainly other ways and means, such as aboriginal justice committees, that we haven't discussed today at all. There are other tools that can be effective.

The Chair: Thank you, Ms Torsney.

I just want to ask what may be a somewhat provocative question, but in Iqaluit, where we were visiting, and here, I see an awful lot of white people talking about these problems and I do not have.... Is there any movement to deal with these problems within the cultures in which you're faced with the problems? It's not to me that you're bringing - and I understand the financial restraint. But the native culture here, the aboriginal culture in this part of the Arctic, is very different from the aboriginal culture in Iqaluit.

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I'm just wondering about moving people from Davis Inlet to Yellowknife or from Iqaluit or Pond Inlet or Grise Fjord or any of these communities to the culture here. That has to be very disruptive. Are you working with native communities to assist them and to provide them with the resources they need to heal within their own communities? What is it that makes us white folk, who brought all the problems with us in the first place, think we can now fix them up?

Mr. Dowdall: Isn't it the nature of our culture, white culture, that we can fix it all?

The Chair: Well, we fixed them, didn't we? We brought the problem.

Mr. Dowdall: To respond a little bit more directly to your question, yes, we are working with the aboriginal community. More than 50% of my board is made up of aboriginal people.

It is my belief that in the Northwest Territories this is a bit of an evolutionary process. If we go back in history, it was only 30 years ago that we as a white society began to believe that an Indian or an aboriginal person could be educated beyond the grade 12 level. From an educational point of view, our old system in the aboriginal community is just now catching up from 20 or 30 years ago to have the technical abilities that Dale, Don, and Carol have to deal with these problems.

To respond to your question, yes, we are trying to work more directly with the aboriginal communities so that they can do it. Yes, there are problems with trying to accommodate the cultural differences in the territories. As you suggested this morning, we have eight official languages in the Northwest Territories and of course very limited resources to deal with that. I hope that helps.

The Chair: Thank you.

I want to thank you for coming to speak with us this morning. You've given us yet another perspective on the north, and we appreciate that.

We'll just rise for a couple of minutes while our next witness takes his place.

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The Chair: I would like to call this meeting to order.

Minister, welcome. It's good to have you with us. I've read ahead, and I agree with your first paragraph. Now that we've been here, it would be great to get out of Yellowknife and Iqaluit. We have a lot to learn, and we're happy to have you here to instruct us.

Let me say that it's also nice to have social services and the justice minister in the same package. It's not a bad idea.

Hon. Kelvin Ng (Minister of Justice and Minister of Social Services of the Northwest Territories): Thank you, Madam Chair and members. I'd like to welcome you to Yellowknife and say how pleased I am that you were able to visit here.

As you've noted, I would have been even more pleased if you had had an opportunity to travel to other communities outside of Yellowknife or Iqaluit. You've already recognized there are some differences in the communities, even in the two you've been to today.

Because you haven't been able to, I would encourage you to bear in mind while listening to witnesses this morning that Yellowknife might seem like the real north, but it's truly not representative of many of our smaller communities. It's fair to say Yellowknife has a lot more in common with southern cities than it does with the majority of our communities in the north.

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It's important to mention a few facts about the north in order to set the context for this discussion.

The NWT has by far the youngest population in Canada. Therefore all issues regarding youth are critical, in particular because it is the young people who commit a majority of the crimes.

The Northwest Territories unfortunately has the highest rate of violent crime in Canada. The rate grew dramatically throughout the 1980s but has stabilized over the last few years. Nevertheless violent crime rates are currently five to six times the national average.

I'd like to briefly outline the resources and facilities we have in the NWT for young offenders.

There's a range of different types of facilities. We have young offenders centres in Hay River and Fort Smith in the western Arctic and in Iqaluit in Nunavut. I understand you have had an opportunity to visit our centre there. All three of these centres house open and secure custody youths as well as youths remanded to custody pending trial or sentencing. These centres are all relatively small. They accommodate a total of 43 young offenders.

In each centre the emphasis is on giving the young people access to programming. In particular there's an effort to provide culturally appropriate activities for youth in custody. In addition, we have open custody facilities operated on both the parent family and the staff models. I understand you'll be visiting the open custody facility here in Yellowknife later today.

We also have in place a system of alternative homes, where families provide one or two beds for young offenders who can benefit from a family environment.

Finally, we have wilderness camps, where young offenders go out on the land with experienced people to be exposed to traditional knowledge related to hunting, trapping, fishing and generally just living off the land. Where possible, young offenders taking part in these programs live in the region where the camp is located.

As you can see, this wide range of facilities provides us with some flexibility in dealing with the specific needs of young offenders.

In dealing with young offenders, we see an opportunity to interrupt a process that, without appropriate and timely intervention, ends with young people in adult criminal court and adult jails. Further, we believe a response tailored to the needs of the individual youth is more likely to result in provoking positive change in his or her life.

I understand the federal government is looking for a mechanism that would allow them to move their financial support away from custody and toward diversion programs. While we're supportive of alternatives to custody, we feel it's important to recognize there's still a need for young offenders facilities.

The Young Offenders Act provides for the possible incarceration of young offenders. Judges avail themselves of this sentencing alternative in circumstances where they consider it appropriate. There are some young offenders whose programming needs may be better met in an institutional setting. We plan to continue operating these kinds of facilities as long as there is a need.

This leads me to the other major area. The Government of the Northwest Territories is very supportive of the development of alternatives to dealing with all young people who come into conflict with the law. I believe there's a great deal of support for alternatives, both from those involved in the administration of justice and from the public.

Many people here see the criminal justice process, for the most part, as rigid, heavy-handed, adversarial and generally speaking a very clumsy tool for dealing with behavioural problems. The good news is our communities are developing alternatives.

In most communities in the NWT there are justice committees made up of concerned and respected people from the community. Many of these committees were formally established as youth justice committees under the Young Offenders Act.

These justice committees work with the young person, his or her family, the victim and resource people in the community. They draw on the creative resources and talents of the community to develop an appropriate plan of action for dealing with the young person.

Many of our justice committees use a restorative approach in diverting young offenders. This is seen by many as more consistent with aboriginal values and practices than the punitive nature of the formal criminal justice system.

The work of these committees has often proved to be much more effective in addressing the problem behaviour of youth than has the formal justice system. Furthermore, from the point of view of the justice system, this certainly is a great deal less expensive. Justice committees in many communities have decided to divert adults as well as youth. This is due at least in part to the positive results of their work with youth. As well, it is sometimes felt that the distinction made by the formal justice system between ``adult'' offender and ``young'' offender is somewhat arbitrary.

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The high rates of crime that face us, particularly of violent crime, cause a great deal of concern for our government. I believe these high rates of crime have to be seen in a broader social context. That social context is made up of high suicide rates, widespread and serious problems of substance abuse, a loss of culture and traditional knowledge, limited job opportunities, and so on. It is in light of these realities that our government has made community wellness one of our top priorities.

As some of you may know, I also have responsibilities as Minister of Health and Social Services for our government. As such, I'm determined to develop a greater integration of initiatives in various departments to address the range of problems we face. We believe that the way to do this is to encourage and support communities in developing locally based, community-controlled solutions to problems.

The Department of Justice employs ten community justice workers across the territories. They act as community development facilitators. These people work with community members and they count on the cooperation of the police, crown prosecutors and others to facilitate the development of these community-based alternatives. We believe that this kind of community development approach to community wellness is the most promising one. It certainly is more promising than widening the net by bringing more kids into the formal criminal justice system.

To sum up, ladies and gentlemen, I think we have real opportunities for doing things differently here. Positive developments are arising from these opportunities. We need to be open to these developments and we need the flexibility to be able to respond to them and encourage them.

Thank you for your time, Madam Chair and committee members. I've tried to keep my comments short, and I'd be pleased to answer any questions.

I hope you enjoy the rest of your stay here in Yellowknife and the Northwest Territories.

The Chair: Thanks, Minister Ng.

Mr. St-Laurent, you have ten minutes.

[Translation]

Mr. St-Laurent: You made a very interesting presentation to us concerning the approach you advocate. I liked your approach, particularly in regard to the alternatives to incarceration, to which you seem to be devoting a great deal of energy. It is very interesting to see that you have a truly profound conviction in this regard.

I asked a question earlier about statistics that would help us in comparing the degree of effectiveness, if that is possible, of what is being done further south compared with what is being done here. We don't often have an opportunity to get statistical data concerning a less traditional approach, and I think it could be useful to us.

[English]

Mr. Ng: Madam Chair, I don't have statistics with me, but I certainly will be able to provide them to the committee. I'd like to ask the member to clarify his question with respect to the effectiveness and what he refers to.

[Translation]

Mr. St-Laurent: Yes, of course. I am not asking for extremely precise data. We could look at it fairly broadly, particularly with regard to the comparative recidivism rate. In terms of adult incarceration, the recidivism rate after traditional incarceration is estimated by Statistics Canada to be about 30 per cent.

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However, I don't agree in relation to the bases on which these studies were conducted, because the adult recidivism rate after incarceration is calculated on the basis that an individual who has not re-offended within six months of being paroled is no longer included in the recidivism statistics. If he robs a bank seven months after his period of incarceration he will be considered, by Statistics Canada, as a new arrival in the system, although he won't be a new arrival in the court's view, of course.

I don't really agree with that, therefore. From my personal experience, and many people can confirm this to us, the real rate of recidivism at present, in this country, is a little above 80 per cent. If someone has gone to prison once in his life, he will go back at some point and will therefore be a repeat offender. I am not referring to a 20 year interval, but to a reasonable time.

I think your quasi-holistic approach is very interesting. Can you give us an order of magnitude, an approximate statistic at that level?

[English]

Mr. Ng: Although I don't have the specifics here, based on my experience with people in my constituency who I know have gone through the system, I think it's safe to say that the rate of reoffence and return to our correctional centres is fairly high.

I think part of the problem for us is more rooted in why they're there to begin with. In their own community they're facing high unemployment, their own peer pressure, social problems, and maybe poor interrelationship skills, and these cause them to reoffend. They unfortunately are more familiar with and more comfortable in the structured environment within our facilities. Once they are in there and have established their own roots among their peers in the correctional system, they tend to migrate back that way as soon as they have an opportunity.

That's certainly - and unfortunately - one of the facts as I see it right now. That's why we're trying to place more of an emphasis on providing alternatives for the younger individuals before they get into that institutional-type of setting. It's a fairly recent program for us. We haven't put as much emphasis into that area of the alternative programming as we would have liked.

I would also like to say that I'm fairly new as Minister of Justice. I've been in the position for our government for approximately six months, so it's certainly something that's a newer direction, not just for me, but for our cabinet. We're trying to focus more on these alternative measures in the immediate future, and we're trying to put more emphasis there in the next few years.

[Translation]

Mr. St-Laurent: If the Canadian government were to change the law in this regard, in what direction should the changes go, in your opinion? I will explain my question. Would you prefer that the law have some teeth and encourage a greater number of incarcerations? We're talking here about extreme measures, and this is not my opinion, of course. To consider the other aspect of the matter, would you prefer that the law contain measures that are more oriented toward a somewhat more holistic approach? In what direction would you like the law to be oriented, to facilitate your work as the Minister?

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[English]

Mr. Ng: In the Northwest Territories we would lean towards giving more flexibility in order that we are, hopefully, more able to address the problem of dealing with our young offenders. I don't condone additional corporal punishment or additional punitive forms of measures. If anything,I think that leads to further entrenchment of the problems with our young offenders.

[Translation]

Mr. St-Laurent: I have ended. Thank you very much.

The Chair: Thank you, Mr. St-Laurent. Mr. Ramsay.

[English]

Mr. Ramsay: Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Minister Ng, for your presentation this morning.

Given your position of justice minister, I'd like to ask you this question. In 1984, when we moved from the Juvenile Delinquents Act to the Young Offenders Act, what the federal government in fact did was decriminalize any act of violence committed by a person under the age of 12. The authorities, yourself included, could take no action against anyone who had committed a violent act, whether it was a rape, a murder or attempted murder, or even an act against property - breaking and entering, stealing of personal property, trashing of homes and so on - which in some cases has almost as devastating an effect upon the owners as a physical assault. The authority possessed by the provinces to deal with these children is not from the criminal justice system; it comes from a social welfare point of view.

We had a witness before the panel two weeks ago who suggested that perhaps the age limit should go from 12 to 14. How do you feel about the decriminalization of what would otherwise be criminal acts without the limit that is placed within the Young Offenders Act?

Mr. Ng: Madam Chair, this is my personal opinion, but it probably caused a lot more problems for us in respect of the fact that a lot of young offenders know they can get away with a lot more than what was in place previously. I think it's safe to say that it is certainly a sensitive issue with the public, and with my cabinet colleagues, as well. On the one hand, you have people who are saying they'd be more rigid for the more violent offences that are carried out by some of the young offenders. On the other hand, you have those who say it's because of the fact that they have these problems that they are led to situations where they undertake these violent acts.

I certainly think measures could be looked at for the more serious types of offences in order to allow young offenders to be held more accountable. But again, a lot would depend on the circumstances at the time.

Mr. Ramsay: Thank you very much for that answer.

Of course, under the old Juvenile Delinquents Act the treatment options were still there, yet the authority to investigate a violent offence or a break and enter or property offence was there under the criminal justice head. There are some who are suggesting that we ought to go back to that, at least to the age of 10, to allowing the justice system to deal with violent acts while, at the same time, not tying the hands of the authorities in terms of the treatment the young person needs. This would be done in a manner that would be in the best interests of society, as well as those of the young individual.

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I'd like to ask you as well - and I have about five minutes left - about the disclosure of information. My colleagues from across the way who don't share the idea of full disclosure for repeat violent offenders always ask the question and never give the supporting rationale for it. So I will ask that question and I will give you the supporting rationale. It is simply this. We have four children -

The Chair: You have five minutes left, just so you know.

Mr. Ramsay: Yes, and I need all five minutes.

The supporting rationale is simply this. Parents - and I'm a parent - need all the information we can get to provide for the protection of our children, including keeping them away from people involved in drug trafficking or criminal activity. If there is someone living within a neighbourhood who is a repeat violent offender or a drug trafficker, or whatever, and if I am not provided that information, then I do not have the advantage that the information would grant me in terms of taking action that would protect my children.

How do you feel about that?

When I talk about disclosure, I'm not talking about disclosure on perhaps the first offence or a minor offence. I'm talking about those individuals, those youth, who would lead my children into criminal activity if they began to associate with them, or the chance of that would certainly be there.

How do you feel about that, Minister Ng?

Mr. Ng: Again, it's one of these sensitive types of issues. It's not so much a problem in the Northwest Territories because of our smaller jurisdiction, our smaller population. Generally when violent offences occur, everybody in the community knows what's happened and everybody quickly hears who was involved in that. So in the case of individuals who are prone to be repeat violent offenders, everybody in the community generally knows already who they are.

Certainly in some of the larger municipalities - probably the only one where this might apply is Yellowknife - I think, again, depending on the circumstances of the individual and what types of repeat violent offences have occurred, it would have to be something that might be considered.

Mr. Ramsay: Thank you.

The Chair: Thank you, Mr. Ramsay.

Mr. Maloney.

Mr. Maloney (Erie): Mr. Ng, you've indicated that the age limit of 12 years has sometimes caused you problems. Are you suggesting a lower age, and if so, what? Are you suggesting that perhaps in certain situations we should be able to go below 12 years of age, or in all situations? What do you feel?

Mr. Ng: Again, I think it would depend on the circumstance, but certainly it would have to be outlined what type of offences of a very serious nature...before that would be taken into consideration.

Mr. Maloney: What about the capacity to know right from wrong and the ability to instruct counsel? Is that of any concern to you?

Mr. Ng: Again, I guess it would depend on the circumstances of the individual, the age, whether or not that individual was competent in knowing what they did or didn't do.

Mr. Maloney: Do you see your government moving closer to a sort of marriage between your child welfare, social welfare, mental health and the youth justice systems? You wear both titles. Is this an initiative you see going further?

Mr. Ng: Definitely one of the reasons I was assigned responsibility for both departments within our government is to try to bring together some more coordination and cohesiveness in how we handle our child welfare and our youth throughout the territories.

We're also taking that one step further in trying to pass on a lot of the responsibilities to the community level so that we have people in the communities - and not just our own staff, who work with community leaders and organizations to try to further enhance this coordination and cohesiveness.

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Mr. Maloney: Would your wilderness camp be a sentence imposed on youths? Are youths who are at risk also sent to wilderness camps?

Mr. Ng: Yes, this is the case.

Mr. Maloney: Are they sentences, or can a child at risk also be sent? Is it strictly one or the other, or both?

Mr. Ng: Right now, it's people who are sentenced.

Am I correct on that?

Sorry, I'd have to check with my staff.

The Chair: [Inaudible-Editor]...in southwestern Ontario, I note. There are a whole bunch of us here from southwestern Ontario.

Mr. Ng: Anyway, the hope is to set up some of the early intervention-type of initiatives parallel with some of the other operations we currently fund.

Mr. Maloney: At the adult level, the federal government has been looking at long-term offender designations. We would monitor offenders beyond their custodial or parole sentences. Do you feel this might have application in the youth justice system as well?

Mr. Ng: Again, for us, because of the size of our communities, I guess this happens already, but not on a regulated basis. I don't think this would cause a great deal of difficulty. The one concern I would have, because of our existing lack of resources, is the additional work that would be required of people in the communities and of our staff. We expect additional supervision-type of responsibilities might be required.

Mr. Maloney: Another buzzword or buzz area when it comes to young offenders is parental responsibility. Is this a concept that would work in this milieu? If so, how do you see it could or would work?

Mr. Ng: I think it could work. I think it is something we try to stress and try to develop some additional support for in the programs we have out there. Certainly parents must take on the responsibilities for a lot of the actions. I think it is a matter of how we work within our existing programs to enhance parents' awareness of their responsibilities. This is the key question for us.

Mr. Maloney: How would you envisage this working? Would you insist parents take counselling as well, looking at a poor family and home environment?

Mr. Ng: Yes, I think having the parents recognize the actions of their children and trying to be part of the solution would be part of it. This would certainly be the case in the early intervention stages when they're first getting off the ground and becoming problematic. We would like to have them involved in any counselling or any kind of corrective-type of recommendations that, hopefully, could support minimizing any future problems in this area.

Mr. Maloney: Thank you.

I have no further questions, Madam Chair.

The Chair: Thank you, Mr. Maloney.

Ms Torsney, we still have about four minutes left.

Ms Torsney: One of the things we heard from some parents when we were at a centre that helped children under 12 who had real emotional difficulties and behavioural problems was that the parents were more than willing to assume the responsibility, but they didn't have the skill to deal with their child.

I would imagine that in some of the affected families you're talking about it's not really necessary to have legislation within the framework of the Young Offenders Act or the Criminal Code. What you need is a community response model. You also need a helping model that would give the parents not just some responsibility they may be willing to undertake, or be legislated to take, but an opportunity to really be able to take this responsibility and do something with it.

You make comments in this area and comments about some people arguing, on page 3, that they were looking for a mechanism to allow them to move their financial support away from custody and toward diversion. This is because it seems, in certain jurisdictions, every time we move to allow for a more punitive or a more legalistic approach, governments are waiting. They are not using their social services dollars and they are not doing early intervention. They're waiting until there has already been a victim. They're waiting until the child has committed a crime, and then they're putting the child in custody. This doesn't address the problem and it further victimizes our communities.

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So, in the same way, some people would argue that if you legislate the parental responsibility or you put some amendment in the Criminal Code or whatever, you would in fact see this very hard stick approach rather than a community help approach. What would your response be here, where there seems to be a lot more opportunity to amalgamate things in your two departments and not be so divided between jurisdictions?

Mr. Ng: I think you're correct. It would have to do with us working with the parents to develop some skills. As I indicated earlier, I think by having parents and the local community involved - the resources at the local community level know the clients, if you want to call them that, best - we should be able to give them the opportunities to work more cohesively.

I think something else you said was about trying to get people involved before it becomes a major problem. You mentioned early intervention in situations where you identified there might be problems. This is certainly something we're trying to focus on as well. This is not just before they get to the age where they start to commit offences or into the area of the possibility of committing offences. We certainly try to eliminate some of the impediments they might have, even before they get into school. There is trying to deal with the kids through early intervention, anger management and maybe assisting them in dealing with some of the lack of the educational skills they might have because of their upbringing or because of other problems such as an FAS or FAE. This should be done before they get into the school system and before they have a chance to further develop bigger problems.

Ms Torsney: The other issue you may have heard raised this morning was that a lot of children are being sexually abused or physically abused in their families, and there seems to be a problem in enforcing the current legislation to charge parents because of testimony difficulties or difficulties gathering evidence. Are you working to address this? Did you hear the testimony from the previous group on this issue? I'm not sure if you were in the room yet.

Mr. Ng: I'm sorry, I didn't catch it. I came into the room near the latter part of their presentation.

Ms Torsney: They were saying they were actually sending kids who had solvent problems back into families knowing the children had been abused. In some cases, the police were investigating but couldn't proceed with charges. They had stories from the children that they were being physically or sexually abused in their homes, yet no one could do anything about it. The law was not able to help them and these kids were being sent back into homes where there were problems.

Maybe we should get you a copy of that section. It is a real problem that obviously involves both of your responsibilities. These kids are going to continue to be problems. There are social problems associated with this as well as the legal problems of evidence and what have you. If parents are continuing to perpetuate these crimes against children, we've got to have a way to deal with this.

Mr. Ng: I don't think I would argue with you on this. It is just a matter of finding the legal mechanisms.

Ms Torsney: Thank you.

The Chair: Minister, thank you very much for coming. We've invited attorneys general from across the country because we appreciate what we recommend will have serious implications, not just for your budget but for your community and your territory. We want to thank you very much.I think it was very worth while. I hope you think so too. Thanks for welcoming us to the Northwest Territories.

Mr. Ng: Thank you very much.

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The Chair: We're back. We have two people sharing their time. Eileen Fitzpatrick is with the John Howard Society of the Northwest Territories, and Jennifer Bowen, a private citizen, has some interesting experiences that can benefit us.

Eileen, I understand you're going to go first.

Ms Eileen Fitzpatrick (Executive Director, John Howard Society): Yes. First I have to address the notice of this hearing and the time. I only arrived back in Yellowknife yesterday. I have no prepared submission, but I think this is very important. Next time you plan on doing something like this, I would really appreciate receiving more notice.

I heard some very good things here today. I heard some very good things from the minister.I just attended a crime prevention council meeting in Ottawa. What they addressed there was early childhood education, identifying children at risk, children aged 3 to 5 who are at that point in time developing their social skills, their anger management and their self-esteem. They talked about identifying these kids, putting them in a good quality pre-school program, working with the families, teaching them how to parent, all these good things.

What we're seeing here right now is that everyone is talking incarceration after the fact. Our kids are our future. Our kids are the responsibility not only of their parents but of the community. The community has to take responsibility if the parents aren't capable.

In the north we're very lucky because the government has recognized this. Currently, the John Howard Society is running a community justice program. We have 38 volunteers who sit on justice committees and listen to youths and adults who have been diverted from the court system. They in turn sit down with victims. The offender gets to look at the victim and see there is a face to this victim of this break and entry, or whatever the offender has done.

It has proven to be very positive. We can lock all these people away and just make better criminals. Because they're going into our prison system, we're not seeing the quality programs these people need to make it on the outside. At least coming through a diversion program where the community is taking responsibility, the offender is seeing the community is taking this responsibility. A whole different mindset comes into play.

I think you have to look at this. You can revise the Young Offender Act until the cows come home, but you're not dealing with the problem. You're legislating people more and more. Haven't we learned it doesn't work? You can do this and it is not going to make a difference. What is working is working with the community, letting the community work with their own problems and resolving their own problems.

We have FAS and FAE here. We have people serving time who have fetal alcohol syndrome. We have people serving time who have abused solvents and have brain damage. We're incarcerating the sick of our community. Does this make sense?

We need support systems now. We need follow-up for young offenders after they've come through the process. We need to let them know there are supports out there. We need people who are not going to sit back and just wag their finger or have the media say to the person in the community ``Another young offender does it again''. We have to have some positives for these kids.

In Yellowknife we have kids who sleep in stairwells when the temperature is minus 35 degrees. We don't have a youth drop-in centre for these kids. These kids either can't go home because mom and dad are drinking or they are not allowed to go home. It is a real reflection on our community that we have kids sleeping in stairwells when it is minus 35 degrees. We have to address this. We as a community are responsible.

Public education is another thing. All we've seen is all the negative side of our youth. There are a lot of good kids out there. There are a lot of good kids who have stepped off the line and have gotten in trouble, and then have pulled themselves back. But they're still classified as bad kids. Our schools have to play more of a user-friendly role for these children. This is the way changes are going to be made.

This is about all I have to say.

The Chair: Thanks, Eileen.

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Do you have any questions for Ms Fitzpatrick, Mr. St-Laurent?

[Translation]

Mr. St-Laurent: Yes, of course, but I thought both people would be making a presentation. Is that not the case, Madam Chair?

[English]

The Chair: Yes, they are, but the two presentations are somewhat unrelated, so I thought we'd try to take advantage of Ms Fitzpatrick first. I didn't mean that the way it came out.

[Translation]

Mr. St-Laurent: What, in your opinion, is the minimum age? In your presentation, you say it would be good if the community were to partially take the place of the legal system. I don't think the community can cope with an offence that is too serious, that the legal system alone can do so. So what, in your opinion, is the minimum age at which a young offender would be authorized to appear in court? At present, it is 12 years or something like that.

[English]

Ms Fitzpatrick: The minimum age is 12. Yes, there are going to be points in time when the court system has to intervene when a client cannot be handled by the community. At the present time I don't have a problem with the age being 12, but I would like to see the court being more aware of these individuals, their history, their culture, and why they have arrived in the criminal courts.I would like the courts and the justice system to be more aware of the clients they're serving and the problems they bring with them.

[Translation]

Mr. St-Laurent: In your research and your work you have of course had to analyze other approaches, such as the holistic approach you advocate, based on community settlement of the offence. What are your data? Personally, I need to have some statistics. What can you provide me with this morning?

[English]

Ms Fitzpatrick: I can't do that, but I will be supplying a written submission and I can supply stats in it for you.

We also run Fine Option and community service programs. I could be wrong on my figures, but last year I think the dollar value of the services that our clients gave to this community was well over $15,000. They gave that back in their hours, in their time. No, it's way over that. I really can't remember, but I can supply that.

The way our programs run - community service and Fine Option - is basically by giving back to the community what you've taken away. We set these people up to go work with a non-profit agency for x number of hours, whatever is required through their fine or community service. I can supply that stat because we did do a cost-benefit analysis on that for the government.

It's the same with our diversion program. There is a community service element in that. We don't utilize it a lot of the time, but if there is a victim in the diversion and the victim would like the offender to do some work for them, it works out.

In regard to stats, I would have to go back to my office and provide those for you.

[Translation]

Mr. St-Laurent: I am not a fanatic about statistics, but I must admit that I love consulting statistical data. I am especially interested in statistics on recidivism. I am almost certain that the approach you advocate yields much better results, but we need to get hold of some data concerning the success rate if we are to convince people of the merits of this approach.

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I am convinced that when it comes to recidivism, this approach cannot be worse than the system we now have. But through it all, it is still clearly understood that our primary goal is to protect the community, the decent people, as they say.

How do you envisage the role of the parents in what you are doing? If you want to conduct some kind of program based on young offender management, at what point should the parents be involved in the follow-up? I imagine you don't do it at the outset of the process, but at what point can you leave the child in the parents' hands, if they are agreeable? Could you provide us with a summary program?

[English]

Ms Fitzpatrick: I personally would like the parents involved from day one of the young offender being picked up for the alleged crime. For the majority of clients who come into our office, their parents either do not have any knowledge of parenting or are so dysfunctional themselves that they are not aware of the problems, the process, or anything else. What I would like to see is a process where we identify the young offender, identify the parents, start looking at some kind of assessment, get some counselling in for the young offender and the family and the siblings, and start working with the whole family.

I go into a court for young offenders on Monday afternoon and I would probably see 5% of the children there being accompanied by their parents. The majority of these kids walk in on their own.I know that if I had gotten into trouble with the law when I was growing up, my mother and father would have been in court. But we're talking about a different time.

When you look at aboriginals, this is so new to them. It's not their way of dealing with anything. They're very intimidated by the process, so they stay away for that reason.

We did a literacy workshop a couple of years ago with front-line workers in the justice system. You forget that English is the second language here; one of the eight aboriginal languages is their first. As a layperson, I go into court and sometimes wonder what the lawyers and judges are saying.I can imagine what it's like for an aboriginal person going in and sitting there and hearing this judge and this lawyer speak legalese in a second language. So you have intimidation there. It also involves anti-aboriginal ways of doing things.

Then you also have the dysfunctional families who do not have the power within them to have any control over their children or, as they feel, any control over the process. They're not going to be heard because they either have little education or they've already had a bad run-in with the RCMP or the courts and they stay away. So the kids are left on their own.

This is why I would love to see children identified at ages 3 to 5 as children at risk and start working with them from then and move onward.

The Chair: Thanks, Mr. St-Laurent.

Mr. Ramsay.

Mr. Ramsay: I'd like to thank the witnesses for appearing today and helping the committee with their testimony.

The Province of Quebec has a Youth Protection Act. Under that act they're authorized...and there are resources available for what you're suggesting, which is the identification and prevention of problems with children at that early age you referred to of 3 to 5 years old. Unless we move in that direction and bleed off into those kinds of programs some of the $10 billion in the back of the system, and unless we can encourage the families that are ultimately responsible, whose first line of responsibility is for their children, to take on that responsibility and assist them to do so, as Professor Carrigan from Halifax told us - I think that's who it was - we're going to hit a brick wall.

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We see that the only statistic we have here this morning - and it's a solid one - is that the violent crime rate is five to six times the national average in this area, in the north. If juvenile crime is a result of a lack of support from the families and -

Ms Fitzpatrick: And the community.

Mr. Ramsay: Okay. We could get into this area of the community, but the first responsibility comes from the family, the parents. Does that mean that with the communities and families up here there are five times more failures, there are five times more dysfunctional families and communities lacking whatever it takes in order to provide those young children with the emotional, spiritual and physical needs that they require? Is this what the statistics indicate?

Ms Fitzpatrick: I think you're looking at statistics across Canada versus those of the north.

When you look at aboriginal peoples - and I really can't speak for them - they have their own spirituality and their own family units and everything else. I look at the Inuit. Until 25 years ago they were a nomadic, traditional people - and you still do find some communities that are very traditional. All of a sudden, all these white ideas were thrown at them. That doesn't mean all the white ideas are wrong, but a whole new culture was thrown at them and was presented as the right way to do things.

What I think we're seeing now is a reclamation of their culture by communities that came from very traditional...very spiritual traditions, and into a white world of thinking and of how to do things. They are realizing that there wasn't that much that was bad about their culture, and that there was no reason to discard it.

So, yes, because you've seen that the white culture was thrown at aboriginal people here in such a culturally volcanic way, I think those stats are perhaps right. But I think you're seeing these cultures finally reclaimed, and I think you're going to see much healthier communities because of this.

Mr. Ramsay: The justice minister testified here just a short while ago. His job, of course, is to protect the lives and property of the citizens under his jurisdiction. In his brief, he just didn't say that the crime rate was five to six times the national average, he said ``the violent crime rate'', which poses an enormous problem for him. How does he protect the lives and properties of the citizens within his jurisdiction?

Ms Fitzpatrick: Maybe he could do so by starting to put more resources into the communities so that the communities will have the resources to help their people out.

Mr. Ramsay: Could you expand on that?

Ms Fitzpatrick: I can look at an inmate, who serves time at the correctional centre here, going back to his community after serving two years less a day. This individual might have a grade 4 education, has learned no real, viable skill in prison, and has maybe taken a couple of programs, or maybe he has done a lot of work on programs. He's going back to his community; he's going back to a family that is the way it was when he left. So he's probably going back to an alcohol abusive family or a drug abusive family. He has done some work on himself or whatever, but is going back to what he came out of. He's going back with no support.

Mr. Ramsay: What's the answer to that?

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Ms Fitzpatrick: The answer is to get the supports in the community so this person has a lifeline when he returns to his community, so he doesn't turn around and revert to his old ways.

Mr. Ramsay: Could you give the committee an example of what you're referring to?

Ms Fitzpatrick: Maybe it would be literacy counselling, mental health, alcohol and drug counselling, or maybe a job. Maybe you could hook into someone in the community and find out what's happening there right now: Is there any work? Would you consider so-and-so?

A person has to have a reason to stay out of prison. They have to have the power within them to stay out of prison.

What I'm seeing with young kids today is there is no hope, there is no future, so what do they have? Live for today. Why not? They can go to university, all these things, but when they get out of school, who says they're going to have a job? Who says they're going to have a quality of life that they've been taught to expect, in some cases? So we have a generation of kids with no hope coming out of our schools, especially up north.

Mr. Ramsay: We have found, and the statistics will tell us, that the children involved in crime make up a very small percentage of children. In most cases, parents and the communities do a very good job. The percentage may be higher here; we have not...although Mr. St-Laurent has asked for statistics that might have included that. Still the fact is that the vast majority of children in Canada are good kids and they do not come in contact with the law.

What we have to deal with is that small minority, and not only the small minority that gets into difficulty with the law, but the smaller percentage of that minority that are repeat violent offenders.

Let me ask you this. The whole business of education and rehabilitation is so very important, particularly in this area. If a young person is under a treatment program for a violent offence because they have committed a violent offence, should that person be released back into society before they have become rehabilitated?

Ms Fitzpatrick: How do you classify rehabilitation?

Mr. Ramsay: That's my question to you.

Ms Fitzpatrick: You don't.

Mr. Ramsay: The justice minister here and the justice system...do we have no other alternative but to keep them in, according to the period of time that has been determined by the courts, and then even in spite of the fact that there is no sign of rehabilitation, they may go back into society and commit another violent offence? Do we have no alternative to that?

Ms Fitzpatrick: In regard to no sign of rehabilitation, you can put a person in a treatment program but you cannot say, yes, he or she is definitely cured. You can never say that.

It's like an alcoholic. An alcoholic will always be an alcoholic. It's whether or not they choose to drink again and if they've been given the support and the counselling necessary to make the healthy choice - as with someone who has committed a crime.

Mr. Ramsay: I have no further questions.

The Chair: Thank you, Mr. Ramsay.

Mr. Gallaway. Please keep in mind that we have another witness coming.

Mr. Gallaway (Sarnia - Lambton): Okay.

From what I've heard, then, what you're saying is you're not in favour of us tinkering around the edges of the Young Offenders Act.

Ms Fitzpatrick: No.

Mr. Gallaway: I have a couple of questions, then.

We are hearing a broad continuum of opinion in this country, one of which talks about rehabilitation - and you have asked the question, what is rehabilitation? I won't call it rehabilitation; I'll call it a behavioural change.

In your opinion, do you think or believe that a young offender, as presently defined under the legislation, can be rehabilitated or undergo a behavoural change that is permanent or has some degree of stability in a facility removed from that person's community?

Ms Fitzpatrick: Yes.

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Mr. Gallaway: In other words, if they are locked up and put behind bars - because we've seen that - in fact will they undergo a change that will have some degree of stability and permanency when they leave that establishment?

Ms Fitzpatrick: It all depends on the programs.

I toured a few young offenders facilities and I questioned the validity of their programs. We need quality programs. Also, anyone will tell you when they are treating someone that it's very hard to treat someone behind bars. The client is not open to the necessary opening of their mind, whereas if you had a secure treatment facility, it would probably be more proactive for the person in treatment.

Mr. Gallaway: As you may be aware, we were in Iqaluit about a week and a half ago. One of the items that struck me was that young people are put into a facility there for a year or two, or whatever the sentence might be, and at age 15 are returned to their community and to a home that is part of the problem.

How can we ever hope, then, to see in fact a permanent change of behaviour when that person is being put back into the same situation from which they were removed at some point earlier?

Mr. Fitzpatrick: As I said to Mr. Ramsay, you have to work with the family. You can't give this kid treatment and counselling and everything else and expect him to go back in two years' time to the same dysfunctional family.

Mr. Gallaway: You raised the point that very few parents appear in court with their son or daughter. Would you then agree to an amendment that would in fact give the authority the power to compel the attendance of the parent or guardian?

Ms Fitzpatrick: No.

Mr. Gallaway: Can you tell me why not?

Ms Fitzpatrick: As I said, the judicial system has removed itself so far from the people it's serving that it has become unreachable.

I'm intimidated by the system. I'm educated. I've been around the system long enough. But there are people out there for whom, to walk into a courthouse.... A lot of my clients' parents have had negative relationships with the RCMP and with the court. They've taken daddy away; they've taken the three sons away. It has been on ongoing thing. They don't trust the system and they don't trust the RCMP.

The RCMP has started community policing right now, which to me is very positive. This is what the judicial system has to do. They have to become a lot more user-friendly for these people. To compel a parent when they are either not capable or so intimidated by the system is ridiculous; you're not helping anyone.

The Chair: Thank you, gentlemen, and thank you, Ms Fitzpatrick.

Ms Bowen, did you have a presentation? I think you had better, because we want to know all about you.

Ms Jennifer Bowen (Individual Presentation): I was informed about this last evening and I didn't have very much time to prepare.

I've come to share my experiences on a canoe trip I was a part of this summer, with my band, the Weledah Yellowknife Dene. They started this spring to prepare a trip to MacKay Lake, to the barren lands. They invited youth between the ages of 18 and 24 to participate in the trip.

The community felt that a traditional portage to the barren lands was the perfect way to start out the community service program, giving the participants the opportunity to familiarize themselves with their peers and coordinators of the program.

The group departed from the Yellowknife River bridge for the first time in 51 years with the support of the Detah and Weledah communities. On August 7, 10 Weledah youths and 3 coordinators followed one of the Yellowknife Dene's traditional routes, which our ancestors used to travel from the fish camps around the mouth of Weledah to the hunting grounds in the barren lands. With the funding from Youth Service Canada, the elders purchased six canoes and borrowed two freight canoes to carry the supplies.

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On the first day of the trip the group was positive and energetic. Our first portage was a beaten trail the size of a road, giving us the confidence for the rest of the trip. Our second portage was one mile uphill. After I completed my first trip over the hill I was certain everyone would complain and lose confidence since this was only day one, but suddenly the group started to support each other with words as they climbed the hill, knowing what needed to be done and that they all had to work together to get it done. This was the start of a real bond in the group.

As the trip progressed, everyone shared their experiences around the fire and mentioned stories their families had told them. Two of our coordinators were experienced guides and shared all of their traditional knowledge with the group, things like how to read the water and the wind, pointing out medicines in the bush and materials our ancestors once used instead of the products we buy in stores today. Many of these stories had not been heard by the participants, and they are telling their friends today.

I myself was not raised on the land nor had an opportunity until now to learn traditional skills.I was uncertain of what would happen on our trip and whether we would finish in the time scheduled, but I found myself feeling very comfortable on the land with the members of my community who guided us through the wilderness. The little bit that I learned on the trip gave me a glimpse at what my ancestors would do year to year. The strength it took me and the others to complete this trip, we will hold forever.

Since my return many people have asked me what it was like and what I saw. To my surprise,I couldn't find all the words to describe everything I felt, smelt and saw. It was an experience that I feel more first nations youth should experience. It would give them a sense of who and what our ancestors' lifestyle was like. That cannot be read from a book. Northern Canada is one of the last places for first nations to be able to actively participate in a traditional way of life.

The Chair: Thank you, Jennifer.

Mr. St-Laurent.

[Translation]

Mr. St-Laurent: Can you tell me what experience you have had and why you were in this process? Are you one of the young offenders?

[English]

Ms Bowen: I was asked to participate in the project because I'm a member of the community - a treaty member. I was also invited to document it on video because I'm a film-maker. The community wanted me to produce a short video to document, keep files, and show people what we were trying to do with the community. Eight of the youths who went on the trip had been offenders. They were not the best of the crop in the community, and when we left a lot of people didn't think we would make it. Within two days people from the other communities were telling our elders that we would not make it, that they would have to send in a plane to get them; these kids do not have the strength, the confidence or the skills, and there are no elders with them.

We didn't have any support from outside communities. Only our own community supported us on what we wanted to do. We didn't hear of this, of course, until we got to our destination two weeks later. It proved that with community support and being together as a community, putting together a trip like this gave these guys incredible experiences they will hold forever. It give them a bit to look forward to in terms of what they can do and share with the community now that they know how to do it, how to continue it.

[Translation]

Mr. St-Laurent: Are these young people still in detention today, in secure custody, or are they in open custody? Have any of them re-offended?

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[English]

Ms Bowen: They're still in the program. They participated in the search in the Fort Rae area for some people who had drowned. Right now the group is in Wool Bay re-establihing the burial sites of their ancestors along the shorelines all the way up to Snowdrift, and re-establishing their identity with the land and understanding their territory and how large it is.

They weren't active offenders before, but they were previous offenders. None of them have gone back to that lifestyle. The program finishes in January, and a lot of these guys hope to get work on the land as guides and to create their own businesses by learning what they learned from this program.

[Translation]

Mr. St-Laurent: To your knowledge, no one has re-offended?

[English]

Ms Bowen: No. They are still in the program and they haven't had an opportunity, I guess.

[Translation]

Mr. St-Laurent: I don't know if it is provided for in your program, but I would like to know whether the parents had some role in it. It might have been an experiment. If that was not done, do you contemplate involving the parents in the program, unless it is not part of the culture? I don't mean that the parents are part of the problem, but I think they are definitely part of the solution.

[English]

Ms Bowen: They got a lot of their traditional knowledge and orientation from the elders of the community, who sat down with the youth and spoke about things to expect in the land, things to respect, and things to look out for while they're on the trip.

As for the parents, a lot of them came out for the community send-off, and a lot of the members were there to see them off. However, to bring families out on a trip like this - large families, like in the old days.... Maybe ten families would go by birch-bark canoe up through the barrens. A lot of the parents have small kids who wouldn't be able to handle a trip like this, but one of the purposes of the trip was an introduction to independence.

[Translation]

Mr. St-Laurent: What is the minimum age of the participants in your program?

[English]

Ms Bowen: Our youngest was 18.

[Translation]

Mr. St-Laurent: Do the people you work with think that 10 or 12 is still too young an age to be able to think? At what age is a child considered able to reason?

[English]

Ms Bowen: No, I don't think it's too young. I think the trip has to be not quite so hard for them. It would be something smaller that they could do, not a long trip like what we went through. They do have a cultural camp at Wool Bay in between Detah and Snowdrift, and that's for the elders and youth in the communities of Weledah and Detah, and they do traditional teachings and traditional skills out in Wool Bay during the summer. They have a summer camp. I believe one of the things they want to do is create a winter camp so that the kids can also participate in the winter.

Mr. St-Laurent: Thank you.

The Chair: Mr. Ramsay.

Mr. Ramsay: I would like to thank Jennifer for coming and telling us this story.

The eight youths who were involved, were they volunteers?

Ms Bowen: Yes, they received a $200-per-week stipend for participating.

Mr. Ramsay: So they were paid to participate.

Ms Bowen: Yes, $200 a week.

Mr. Ramsay: We hear about the boot camp concept where young offenders are involved in a rigorous program, not unlike what you're talking about, where a program is designed to develop their skills and their self-confidence and so on.

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What do you think this program that you've described to the committee today...? Is it suitable...? What do you think would happen if people weren't volunteering? What if this was an alternative for them? Either they'd go into closed custody or they'd take one of these programs where they'd learn life skills and so on. Do you think that would work? Do you think that would be beneficial?

Ms Bowen: Yes, I do. Because the trip we took was a travelling trip, there was no sitting around. We had 12-hour days and even longer. Sometimes we did a 24-hour day because we got stuck somewhere. We looked at it as something that needed to be done. We couldn't just sit down and have time to think about boredom and not being able to do anything.

Things had to be done, and as a group of people we were allotted things to do. We weren't told to do them. It was just expected. It was just a part of a community lifestyle, and a lot of these kids already know this. They already know this from their communities. Just to be active in it, because they don't have opportunities to be able to go out on the land any more -

A lot of their parents who might have alcohol problems aren't going back to the land as regularly as before, so just to have the opportunity to go out on the land with experienced guides and experienced people who could teach them and give them the opportunity to participate in a lifestyle that is theirs -

Mr. Ramsay: And a strong, powerful bonding effect occurred as a result of very positive experiences that would strengthen the whole of the character of the individuals involved.

This happens in the non-aboriginal community with Boy Scout troops and Girl Guides and so on. They do exactly the same kinds of things at all ages, and as you indicated earlier, for the younger groups it's not as rigorous and not as demanding, but it gets more so as they develop and are perhaps able to take longer trips on the river or whatever. Those kinds of things are there, and when you talk to adults who've had those experiences as children, they have very positive memories that they carry with them throughout the remainder of their lives.

What about the funding of these programs? You say that these individuals are paid $200 a week.

Ms Bowen: Weledah's Dene Cultural Society received a grant from Youth Service Canada to put together a community service program. It's only temporary. I don't know if they will be able to reapply in the new year or if the funds are sent to new communities. That's where they received their funds for this particular project.

Mr. Ramsay: Let me ask you this. Let's say that a program is devised and a trip organized and this young offender said he didn't want to go, but you simply told him to get in the canoe, that he was going -

Ms Bowen: They don't really have an option. They can't really be left behind, but in their own minds they have no other option but to go, because the food is going, the transportation's going, and everything else is going. They don't have an option.

Mr. Ramsay: Sometimes I think we provide too many options, and those options are not always in the best interests of the individual in the long run. That's really the point I'm getting at. Should we be providing that kind of an option or should we simply say they're sentenced to it? Should the court simply say they're sentenced to take that trip or they're sentenced to a boot camp program or whatever? How do you feel about that?

Ms Bowen: Most of them probably would choose the trip over doing time, because they wouldn't be held in. They wouldn't be in a closed environment; they would be in an open environment, in wide open spaces with the land and the wilderness. It's a kind of healing when you're out in the wilderness by yourself or with a small or larger group of people. It's a healing environment, being on the land.

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Mr. Ramsay: Of course, that's what we want. That's what we would like to see happen with these young people. Thank you, Jennifer.

Ms Torsney: Thank you, Ms Bowen. This program that you went on was for 18- to 24-year-olds who may have been caught doing things, maybe not, but they are somehow at risk. Clearly, it's very demanding, but it really addresses, for a lot of the young people, the lack of connection with their roots and things. You've mentioned that this was the case even for you.

Do you think there's a possibility that some type of program like this, or something that was maybe a little bit less rigorous, should be instituted for all young people? Maybe it should be part of the school curriculum, such that, at some point, you do this kind of outward bound experience geared to your level of ability well before you start to get into solvent abuse, petty theft, and the other things that the young people are getting involved in. This is so they can get back to their roots.

Ms Bowen: Oh, yes. I think it should be kind of like summer camp for every kid. I used to go to Camp Antler. That was the thing we did. It kept us from being bored. It kept us from dilly-dallying with all these other things. A lot of these kids start off with boredom, not having anything to do.

Being able to participate in a traditional way, being on the land, you're moving. Your mind is moving. Your body is moving. There's so much that interests them about it that it keeps their minds and spirits occupied with what they're doing.

Ms Torsney: So we should be making recommendations to at least your Minister of Justice, who's also the Attorney General and the Minister of Community and Social Services, that this might be something that he and whoever is the Minister of Education could work on together. I guess there would be an opportunity for the different nations to work with culturally sensitive or unique programs right across the Northwest Territories.

The second question I have for you relates to the role of television in the creation of expectations that are unrealistic for young people. There are a lot of television choices, more so, I think, than even in my community. How is that having an impact on the young people you know? Is it positive or negative? How is it influenced or mitigated by other things going on in your community? As a film-maker, I guess you have some responsibility here.

Ms Bowen: I think they should cut off all the Detroit channels. There's a lot of violence on those channels.

There is a lot of influence on the youth. Just wandering around Yellowknife you can see the major impact on all the youth, not just specific to first nations. Their identity is based on a lot of what comes through the television and what they perceive from that television. They try to create their own identity with a lot of the movies and television they watch. The only source of identity they're getting is through television.

I know that when I was growing up here, that was my source. These are the things I wanted to be. These are the things I wanted to do. These things weren't actively here, and this was an access for me to find a way to identify who I was.

I wasn't given the opportunity to find other ways to identify myself. When I participated on this trip - I'm 24 years old - it really was an eye-opener for me. It really gave me a sense of what I could do as a person and as a film-maker in really challenging myself. I didn't have that opportunity whenI was younger.

In some ways, it would have been nicer if I had had that opportunity. I wouldn't have gotten into a lot of things I did when I was growing up here.

It's interesting to see the kids today influenced in a major way by our southern counterparts, and not being able to be strong in their own identity other than in sports.

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Ms Torsney: I guess it's not just your southern counterparts; by and large, it's urban Americans. Degrassi Junior High was a fantastic show, but it's not on any more. There's very little Canadian content on most of the stuff that's in my hotel room anyway.

One of the things that's certainly affecting young people in the south - I'm sure it has a huge impact here - is the whole issue of hope and choices. One of the things that has been raised - I don't think it has been raised with you - is this issue of the publication of names.

Since Mr. Ramsay has accused me of not providing the background, maybe I'll tell you what happened when we asked some young offenders at a centre in Elora about whether it would be helpful to publish names. One young fellow was a drug dealer. He said, first of all, if we published his name, that would be great, because he would be a big man. He would have made it with his friends. Second, he was a drug dealer, so he would have more clients.

Another young person said that if our goal was to protect our children from him as a drug dealer, it's too late. For three years he was doing this stuff and wasn't caught. Now that he has been caught, we want our kids to hang out with him, because he's clean and he's not going to go back to that life.

Thinking back to your own experience as a youngster growing up here, would it have helped you or hurt you if you thought your name was going to be in the newspaper? Would it have changed your motivation at all? As for the stuff you did or didn't do, you don't have to be specific. Since they have been caught, I'm amazed at how many fine, upstanding individuals did commit something that would have given them a record.

Ms Bowen: My name was in the paper.

Ms Torsney: Oh, it was.

Ms Bowen: It didn't really affect me. If it had been on the radio.... I find that more people pay attention to the radio. They used to list names of people who had STDs and stuff like that on the radio. When you came into the clinic.... This is a long time ago; they don't do that now. That would have been something, I guess, but as for the newspaper, I might have cut it out and put it in my photo album or something as kind of an eye-opener.

It gives an opportunity for the community to be aware of what's going on with you. It would be hard for me to really answer that one in terms of what it would do.

Ms Torsney: Since we're still doing hearings, if you have any more comments on that, I guess it would be interesting to hear them after you've had time to think about it more.

Mr. Maloney: You prepared a movie of the experience. What has become of this movie?

Ms Bowen: Actually, we finished the trip at the end of August. We stayed up for a week for the caribou hunt. I returned here. I just started over at the Native Communications Society, which is giving the facilities to edit and distribute our video.

What I plan on doing with the video is to give it, of course, to the people who participated in the community. I also hopefully plan to send it to film festivals and anybody who's interested in youth conferences. I'll look at any way of distributing it to get people to watch it.

The Chair: Did Youth Service Canada help fund that?

Ms Bowen: No, this is something that I had to put together on my own. I actually got no money to shoot this video. It was strictly volunteer.

The Chair: Will you be providing a copy, say, to your local MP?

Ms Bowen: I could. Sure.

The Chair: I think what Mr. Maloney is getting at is that we would love to see it. If you could accommodate that in some way or if we could get someone to contact you, maybe that's the way to do it.

Ms Bowen: Yes, we hope to air it on TVNC and any other access channels down south.

Mr. Maloney: This was a positive experience for you and the group that participated. Where I'm going is, where can this be expanded upon? Can this be the first step in a larger program? What will generate a result from this? What initiatives are being taken to meet that possibility or eventuality?

Ms Bowen: This is what has happened. When we returned, the community members received us. They were all excited that we made it and everything.

There was very little time, and the winter was coming. On the barrens, winter was there already. Our ancestors would come up to MacKay Lake - we went through 40 portages - and they would continue on to Reliance and then go back down. I don't know how many portages...they plan on completing the trip. We only went halfway, and the trip continues on to Reliance and Snowdrift and comes back down through the Great Slave Lake. They want to continue that trip, get the same participants and hopefully maybe even more. Because of the interest we stirred in the community on our completion of the trip we'll probably get a lot more interest in it, seeing that these things can be done and a group of people can get together and complete something. It will happen.

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As part of the group that's still involved with the program...this winter they're going on the same trail with skidoos. Because the trail we went on was no trail at all, there was sometimes bush and you had to hope that there was water on the other side...they would blaze through the bush. They want to go back and re-establish that trail, to make it better than we did because of the time line we were working on. They want to tag it and hopefully set up cabins along the traditional route so that they can take tourists and youth on this trail. It would be established as their trail.

Mr. Maloney: Who is this community? Is it your band or is it an organized group? Who are these people who want to do this?

Ms Bowen: The funding is sent to the Weledah Dene Cultural Society, the elders society. The elders are coordinating the needs they want. This is something they want, and they're getting the youth to do it. The youth feel it's something they can do and they feel it's important enough for them to do it.

When they came back those boys were bragging big time; they were proud. Everyone knew they went on this trip. They were so proud to do it. This is the first time in 51 years that anyone from the community has gone on this trip through this particular trail.

Mr. Maloney: You said that through the program they have goals now. They would like to become guides or other.... Is this realistic? Will this happen?

Ms Bowen: Is it realistic for them to become guides? I believe so. We had two really experienced guides with us, and one shared his experience of how he became a guide out in Great Bear Lake and the Great Slave. It's just a matter of communication and knowing who's doing the hiring and who's out there. They will be able to go to an employer and say that they did this, this is how they did it, this is what they learned and this is what they can do, and be able to share their experiences and get hired just from what they learned. They're continually learning right now, because they're still out there.

Mr. Maloney: Thank you, Madam Chair.

The Chair: Jennifer, thank you very much. That was very interesting. and I know that the youth services program has been really active in terms of funding different activities for young people in our communities. We don't very often get a chance as a justice committee to take a look at it.

Your MP, Ethel Blondin-Andrews, is also the minister for youth. It's her department's program, and it looks to me like she's really linked into something locally that is important and has broader significance than just youth employment. That's great.

Thank you very much. We hope to get a chance to see your film. I'll try get Ethel to buy it for us so that you don't have to donate.

Mr. Maloney: On the issue of confidentiality, name disclosure, you indicated that your name was published in the paper and it didn't really bother you - you had cut it out - but if it had been published on the radio, that would have been different. What would have been different?

Ms Bowen: It would have reached a lot more people.

Mr. Maloney: How would that have affected you?

Ms Bowen: Embarrassment, really. People would be more open to approaching me on it.I think the radio, because it broadcasts all over, reaches a broader audience than the newspaper, which is local.

Mr. Maloney: Would that embarrassment have a deterrent effect, or would that embarrassing knowledge have a detrimental effect or stigmatize or mark you?

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Ms Bowen: As a young person, identity is very important, and to be humiliated at a young age does make you.... You could go full forward in what you're going to do or turn around and take a look at what has happened. I took it as a learning experience and turned around and did something different.

Mr. Maloney: Thank you.

The Chair: We're going to rise until 1 p.m. I remind colleagues that we have some witnesses, a round table, this afternoon, and at 2:45 p.m. we're going to a facility.

This meeting is ajourned.

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