EVIDENCE

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

Wednesday, October 2, 1996

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[English]

The Chairman: Order. This is a meeting of the Sub-Committee on Sustainable Human Development of the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Trade. Today, as you are hearing, we have a vote going on and we've had some tributes to former Premier Bourassa and it has slowed our opening. But the minister has very kindly agreed to come and testify and we will be staying here through the vote. The bells will ring, but for the sake of the continuation of the testimony we'll be able to remain here until the minister is finished and for any other comments that might be made.

It is a great honour to have with us today the Minister for Foreign Affairs, the Honourable Lloyd Axworthy. The minister, as many of you know, has spoken publicly and often on the subject this committee is considering this fall, child labour as a global issue. Today the minister has agreed to address us about his own work, about the government's views on these questions, and about what future prospects for Canadian policy exist in this particular area. I welcome the minister today.

Mr. Axworthy, please begin.

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Hon. Lloyd Axworthy (Minister of Foreign Affairs): Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. First let me offer my compliments to you for the extraordinary adroitness in being able to convince the whips of our caucuses to allow us freedom from the vote. This must go down as a new precedent in the annals of Parliament - a landmark decision, as we were saying today.

I would like to first introduce those who are with me. Senator Landon Pearson, whom I've asked to be a special adviser for me on matters of children's rights, is well known as a strong and effective advocate in that area. I'm very pleased to have her working with me on this file. Lucie Edwards is the director general for global humanitarian issues, which is a part of our reorganized department that deals with a broad base, with a number of related matters dealing with children. They are here to help me out, support me and prop me up on all occasions, and I appreciate that.

[Translation]

Mr. Chairman, child abuse is a fundamental violation of human rights. The forum that this committee has organized, to take place over today and tomorrow, is therefore of great importance. I would like to congratulate the subcommittee on bringing together representatives from the private sector, NGOs, and the government to discuss this important issue.

[English]

Mr. Chairman, I really want to thank you and your colleagues for organizing this special forum. It's a very important step in drawing Canadians' attention to what I called last week, when I gave a speech at the UN, the new question of sustainable human security, which deals with rights of individuals, not just rights of nations. I think you are breaking new ground with this hearing. I look forward very much to receiving your recommendations, which I know will be instrumental in formulating government policy.

My intention today is to provide you with a brief overview of where we stand currently on child labour and where we're heading in terms of our future agenda, aided, I'm sure, by your own discussions and developments.

You will recall that in the last throne speech the Government of Canada made the rights of children a priority in setting Canada's domestic and foreign policy agenda. Domestically we must make sure we live up to our commitments under the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child in terms of looking after our own children's welfare. On Monday of this week I was in New York to participate in a ceremony organized by UNICEF marking the mid-decade review of the World Summit for Children. While the record inevitably varies, I was heartened to see from the mid-decade reviews submitted from some 90 countries that there has been significant progress for children towards meaningful and measurable targets. At that time we submitted our own mid-decade review and its application in Canada.

In addition to helping Canadian children, which is a subject I addressed in my previous portfolio, we also must focus on how we can help children overseas, children who are all too often the poorest in their societies, the most abused in terms of human rights, and the most powerless. The UN Convention on the Rights of the Child was designed to redress these wrongs, and it's a welcome sign of the world's commitment to those children that 187 countries have now signed the convention.

This commitment must now be translated into action, both by informing any new legislation or policy bearing on children internationally and by providing the impetus for enforcement. Governments are now implementing various forms of legislation to protect children, but often they don't have the resources to make that enforcement work.

[Translation]

Here in Canada we have been working hard to make children's rights a key foreign policy priority. As I mentioned, the appointment of Senator Pearson as special advisor on children's rights is a demonstration of our commitment.

[English]

We are also working with other countries, NGOs, and interested parties such as the International Labour Organization, the World Bank, and the Asian Development Bank to address these developments.

The aspect of children's rights that you have chosen to focus on - child labour - is a complex, important and wide-ranging one. It is estimated that worldwide between 100 million and 200 million children under 15 are working, mainly in agriculture, small industry and domestic services. Child labour in the export sector represents 4% to 7% of all child labour globally. This is why, in considering punitive unilateral trade sanctions, you should consider that they may be unlikely to effectively control child labour because the export part represents such a small portion of the overall marketplace. They also risk driving the problem underground and forcing children into even more dangerous situations.

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Child labour is rooted largely in poverty but is also influenced by culture and traditional social practices.

It was interesting, Mr. Chairman and colleagues, that when I had conversations this last week with the minister of external affairs in India, who was visiting here for a short stay, he talked about how in his own country, poverty is the root of it. Because of the caste system and for other reasons, the use of children in labour goes back centuries. Even though they've now passed legislation, breaking those cultural barriers down is very difficult. This is why we had a very extensive discussion with him about how we could work together on a number of pilot projects in his country.

Simply putting children out of work is not the answer. There must be alternatives for ensuring their education and care. There must be income for their families and for dealing with children who've lost all contact with their families.

Development, cooperation and emphasizing poverty reduction and meeting basic needs are essential to the Canadian effort to attack the root causes of abusive child labour.

I believe you'll be meeting with my colleague Mr. Pettigrew, who will expand on some of the ODA initiatives when he meets with you.

I'd just like to give you some examples of how we're using our development assistance programs to fight child labour.

I recently visited a project in northern Thailand. Northern Thailand is part of the golden triangle, which is, as you all know, the source of so much of the heroin and drugs coming into Canada. We are working on a project that gives you a little bit of an example of how very small amounts of money can make a difference.

Our ambassador in Thailand, out of his so-called Canada fund, which is a small portion each ambassador has for discretionary purposes, was able to help purchase about four or five acres of land for $20,000.

Some 40 children who had previously been indentured, who had been involved in the drug trade or whose parents were in prostitution, were brought onto this land. Each of them was given a small plot of this land to grow vegetables or flowers for sale in the marketplace.

Out of the sale of this product they were able to support education, health services and a dormitory, all under the supervision of one or two volunteers and one person working full-time. In other words, it became the classic example of a self-help project for children themselves.

From my visit to the project this summer, I can tell you it is about the best $20,000 of Canadian taxpayers' money I've ever seen spent. It was giving new hope and encouragement.

My own contribution to it, Mr. Chairman, was that I bought them 42 toothbrushes, which was the highest additional priority they expressed an interest in at that point.

We have also consulted Canadians extensively in order to try to get their views on a wide variety of child labour issues.

In March I participated in a consultation co-chaired by Senator Pearson with UNICEF Canada. This consultation involved NGO students and representatives of the private sector talking about approaches we could take.

Our consultations confirmed there were four aspects of child labour where development assistance needs to be reinforced by international initiatives. These are: commercial sexual exploitation of children; children working in unsafe conditions; children working as bonded labour; and children in armed conflict.

On the issue of children in the sex trade, in August Senator Pearson, the Honourable Hedy Fry and I attended the World Congress Against the Commercial Sexual Exploitation of Children in Stockholm. At the congress there were 700 representatives from 119 countries, over 100 participants from the UN and other international organizations, 500 NGO and youth delegates, and close to 500 media representatives.

I would like to quote myself and what I said to these delegates, if you don't mind, because it was not a bad speech at the time. ``It's hard to believe that on the eve of the 21st century, we still find ourselves dealing with a form of slavery.''

There is, in the sexual exploitation of children, a very real degree of modern-day slavery. There is no other word to describe it.

[Translation]

The success of the congress will ultimately be measured by the extent to which the sexual exploitation of children declines. The first step in that direction will be the implementation of the Declaration and Agenda for Action approved at the conference. I would like to table these documents today for the benefit of the members of the sub-committee.

[English]

I would offer this suggestion to the chair and to the members of the committee. In your further explorations on this subject, it would be worthwhile to talk to a number of people who were at the conference. It was one of the most important I have ever attended in terms of mobilizing international opinion and mobilizing international action on a very important subject.

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One of the most interesting areas was how we can begin to use the advantages of new information technology to start sharing information about child exploiters as they move from country to country and the various aspects of tourism that follow from it. Many of the poorer countries simply don't have access to such technology. That's an area Canada will be working on with them, and also trying to ensure this new technology doesn't become a new tool in the arsenal of the criminals who are engaged in the exploitation. That's a very big subject for exploration in this area. I announced last week at the UN that as our contribution to the year of human rights in 1998 we're going to be organizing a major forum on the whole question of information technology, hate propaganda, and its use in developing an instrument for human rights.

Canada is also looking at supporting the efforts of other governments against the commercial sexual exploitation of children through extended use of Interpol, exchange of data, and training of law officers. Senator Pearson is coordinating efforts in these areas.

We're also working with the UN Commission on Human Rights on the development of an optional protocol to the Convention on the Rights of the Child with respect to the sale of children, child prostitution, and child pornography. This protocol will require countries to criminalize the sale of children, child prostitution, and child pornography, and to extend their jurisdiction by way of extraterritoriality. As you all know, Bill C-27 was tabled in this House on April 18, proposing amendments to our Criminal Code to allow for the prosecution of Canadian citizens and permanent residents who engage in commercial sexual activities with children while abroad, a practice commonly known as ``sex tourism''.

On the issue of work and unsafe conditions and bonded labour, Canada was active in the decision taken in March by the International Labour Organisation to work towards a new convention eliminating the most egregious and harmful forms of child labour, and in particular bonded labour. The objective is to produce a binding instrument for adoption in 1999, banning, on the one hand, forms of labour or activities that are contrary to fundamental human rights, including child slavery, bonded labour, prostitution, and pornography, and on the other hand work that exposes children to particularly grave hazards to their safety or health or that prevents them from attending school normally.

An ILO convention is particularly important because it would provide us with the legal basis on which to act. Research on the use of trade measures to deal with bonded labour has shown this would contravene our existing commitments under the WTO. As I reiterated last week at the UN General Assembly in New York, there can be no clearer example of an issue in which cooperation and dialogue with other international and regional organizations, particularly between the ILO and the WTO and with non-governmental groups, can produce such synergy and such effective solutions.

Again, if I may comment for a minute, Mr. Chairman, this is going to be a major debate at the Singapore meeting on trade conventions: how to look in concert at international labour rights, international trade rights. What we're proposing in Canada is to ensure that in the trade conventions they look at trade and in the labour conventions they look at labour, but that the two organizations come together on an annual, regular, routine basis to share their information, share their work, and share their progress, so rather than trying to shift responsibility from one to the other we simply provide a synergy between the WTO and the ILO so they can both work in their respective areas but ensure that as they proceed step by step they're doing it in full coordination and cooperation. That really is one way of resolving the dilemma that has been posed about how to deal with children's labour rights inside the trade context.

A final area of concern is the situation of child soldiers, an especially dangerous form of child labour. The UN Commission on Human Rights has created a working group, in which Canada has participated, to develop another optional protocol on the Convention on the Rights of the Child for the situation of children in armed conflict.

We're also giving attention to children in post-conflict reconstruction and transition economies. Children, as we all know, are victims in disproportionate numbers of injuries involving land mines. As you've heard in the House, beginning tomorrow morning we're sponsoring a major international conference, involving 70 countries, on the question of how we can move to an eventual international ban on land mines. As we've seen in Bosnia and Somalia, however, they are also tragically subject to post-stress and trauma rehabilitation needs. We will be focusing on those questions at this Ottawa meeting, and I propose to hold another conference later on in the year in Winnipeg, looking specifically at rehabilitation questions and de-mining issues. Clearly that will have major implications for rehabilitation and remedial work for children.

In summary, the government's immediate priorities on international child labour issues are child prostitution and sexual abuse, bonded labour and occupational health and safety, and children in armed conflict. These are the areas where I hope we can really make a difference and where I hope your committee can assist us with recommendations.

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Child labour is not just an area of government action; it's one where the ordinary Canadian can also make a difference. We've seen this in the work of Craig Kielburger and others. Consumer education, voluntary codes of business conduct and consumer choice schemes are possible tools. A forum such as the one you've organized provides the ideal opportunity to work with the private sector and community groups to develop these tools. I urge the committee to pursue these possibilities with business, labour and especially with young people during your discussions this week.

In the area of consumer choice, we have consulted with a number of experts on the issue of labelling schemes for carpets, including with UNICEF. I'm pleased to table today, officially, the executive summary, in both official languages, of a study commissioned by my department and prepared by UNICEF Canada to assist us in determining a Canadian policy towards rug marking.

I should say the study commissioned by UNICEF is available. We are seeking to have its full translation. So the full study will be available to members of the committee, but the executive summary is here officially today. Because there is a significant public interest in this document, as I say, we'll have it available in full version by next week.

Another innovative approach to consultation can be seen in the work of Senator Pearson to bring together the children from around the world in an international symposium in which they themselves will discuss children's rights and propose their own solutions.

The 50th anniversary of UNICEF will, I hope, be an opportunity for Canadians to reflect on the need to make children's issues a priority in our communities and to develop community-based responses. It's not up to governments alone to act. All of us, governments and communities, must not only engage in debate but also take action with solutions.

Realistically, we know how difficult the task will be in light of limited resources. We'll have to assess carefully where we can make the most difference and then act in those areas. We encourage Canadians, including those gathered here, to do the same.

During the summer, I canoed in parts of Manitoba. During one of those excursions, we got into a discussion about children with some elders of one of the indigenous groups in my province. They gave to me something I've cherished ever since and carry with me on most occasions. They are the words of the elders of the Cree Nation that deal with their belief in children. I'd like to read them as a concluding remark, because I think it may set the right tone for the work of this committee.

There is a common belief among the Cree Nation that a child is a gift or loan from the Great Spirit and that you were given the responsibility to raise and care for that child. Since a child is a gift from the Great Spirit, the child is ``sacred'' and must be treated with respect and dignity.

Mr. Chairman, I commission your work in terms of treating children with respect and dignity, which is something we should all honour and obey.

Thank you.

A voice: Bravo!

The Chairman: Thank you very much, Mr. Minister.

Mr. Axworthy: Senator Pearson has been very active working as my adviser on this, and I think she'd like to say a few words about the work she's doing.

The Chairman: Senator Pearson, we'd be delighted to hear from you.

Hon. Senator Landon Pearson (Ontario): Thank you very much.

Before we go to questions, perhaps I'll add a couple of comments. I'd like to address my comments primarily to the themes you have set for today: what Canadians should know about child labour and what Canada can do to help.

I'd like to read into the record the best definition I've found of child labour, because one of your tasks is to clarify what we're really talking about. Are we talking about the kids who are going out and delivering newspapers and so on? What are we talking about?

This definition is actually from India, but I think it sums it up quite well. It certainly complements what Mr. Axworthy said. It states:

``Child labour''...is the work which involves some degree of exploitation - i.e. physical, mental, economic and social - and, therefore, impairs the health and development of children.

It effectively deprives them of their childhood.

I think you'll see the nuances. For me, that's a helpful definition to work with. You have to find some degree of exploitation. It narrows what you're talking about.

Another thing I wanted to do with respect to what Canadians should know about child labour is share some observations that were brought to the world forum on child welfare, which was held last week at Mont Gabriel, Quebec. The comments were made by Margaret Catley-Carlson, formerly, as many of you know, the president of CIDA, Deputy Minister of Health and Welfare, and currently the president of the Population Council in New York.

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The Population Council recently completed extensive research on international trends in family forms and functions and in labour force participation, and has come up with some disturbing facts. These are important for any discussion of child labour in either the developing or the developed world, for if we don't see the situation of families clearly, we won't be able to reach children.

Here are some of the facts. There is a striking increase in single-parent families, mostly mothers, in the more developed countries and in households headed by women in the less developed countries. These increases are caused by high levels of marital dissolution in less developed countries; rising divorce rates in the more developed countries; childbearing by unmarried women, particularly adolescents; and migration by spouses seeking employment. Even in households where fathers are present, mothers have increased economic responsibility for children. Changes in the global economy have resulted in a steadily rising rate of women in the labour force, declining male employment, and an increasing proportion of two-earner families in both less and more developed countries. The implications of these trends are very serious for children and account to a degree for the increase in child labour.

These are just some rough notes from the speech, but I'm prepared to leave them with the researcher. I think it's very interesting information and it can be pursued with the Population Council in New York.

Ms Catley-Carlson went on to remind us that this is the largest generation of teenagers that has ever been alive. It may even be the largest that ever will be alive, partly because many of the fertility trends are beginning to descend.

Very large numbers of those in the older range of adolescents are unemployed or underemployed, partly owing to the children and young adolescents who are at work. This is a crazy inversion and it's something that I think needs to be thought about in your considerations. In my view this adds a new note of urgency to the issue you have before you. If we do not meet the needs of all young people for education and opportunity, the world will be paying for it for centuries to come. For those of us who know what it's like to live with adolescents at a certain age, the image of a world full of unemployed adolescents is kind of scary. I don't wish to make fun of it, but I do think it's an issue we must pay attention to.

Now I'd like to address the second question that was included in today's theme: what Canada can do to help. I'd like to give you an example, as Mr. Axworthy did, of a particular incident of child labour that incorporates the principles that are most appropriate to the Canadian response.

I evaluated a project about three years ago in Bangalore, India, on behalf of CIDA, which had a fund at that time for children in especially difficult circumstances. This project had to do with rag-picking girls, little girls who go out and pick up the garbage in the streets of Bangalore and recycle it. They are basically the blue boxes of India. The project was aimed at bringing non-formal education to these girls, bringing them to sites where they could learn some of the most basic literacy skills, basic hygiene, and other things. More than that, they could learn how to talk, to organize and to act, on the assumption that training girls to be active in their communities is one of the most effective ways of bringing about change.

This project, which was not a great deal of money and was, I think, a great investment of Canadian money, has several lessons. First of all, you go where the children are if you want to address the issues of child labour. You cannot take those children away from the families that need the little bit they can add, so you provide an education program at the time when they're available. In the morning the little girls go out and do the first run of the garbage dumps. Then they come home and are supposed to look after little brothers and sisters so they can bring them to the school while the mothers go out to do the second round of garbage-picking.

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So they come to the school, but as they come to the little schools they wash and they clean up and they clean up the little brother or sister they have with them. Then they throw themselves with enthusiasm into the opportunity to learn to read and write and to learn some other skills.

Some of them then go on to the regular school system. Some of them learn other skills that enable them to have some choice in their life so they will not spend their lives collecting garbage and so maybe some day India will have to go to blue boxes instead of little girls.

You go where the children are, you work with their circumstances, you prepare them for entering the mainstream, if they want to, or other trades. You give them choices.

You go with the existing infrastructure. This is a project that worked with the Catholic Church in India. The infrastructure is already there. What you have to do is add a little in order to help it do its work. That ensures the sustainability, and in fact this project, which we're no longer funding, has been sustained by other sources.

You go with the countries that are really anxious to work on this problem, of which India is one, where the legislation is there, the government people, the non-governmental organizations; where there is a tremendous effort to work cooperatively on the solution to the problem. We have limited resources we're going to be able to use in solving this problem, but in bringing assistance to the actual projects these are one of the examples. We'll go where we can make the most difference the most quickly.

Those are the comments I wanted to add to what the minister said, to give you a feeling for what it was really like. I must say those little girls were terrific. I can see them out there in a few years really making a difference in their communities.

The Chairman: Senator, about the information you mentioned you received in New York, if you'll give a copy to our clerk, we can have it prepared and circulated to the members.

Thank you very much. That was very helpful. It certainly indicated the rich experience you've had in this area.

Minister, you have some time for questions. I know we started a little late, but I hope you can stay for some time, and perhaps Senator Pearson and Miss Edwards can help if you have to leave.

[Translation]

Ms. Debien, you had a question?

Ms. Debien (Laval East): Good afternoon, Mr. Minister. Welcome to our subcommittee.

Mr. Minister, in your brief you outlined some of the Canadian government concerns, concerns which we share, of course.

You also mentioned some of Canada's achievements in the area of human rights and child labour, as well as some of the Canadian government's commitments, including the Convention on the Rights of the Child.

As you know, no sanctions are provided for under the convention. This convention only has moral weight and you said quite clearly yourself that out of 188 countries, about 90 had submitted reports, which is about the only major condition countries agree too under this convention. Unfortunately, therefore, this is still merely lip service.

There is an enormous amount of work to be done, as you yourself said, as well as Ms. Pearson.

We were truly horrified last week to hear some witnesses describe child labour in certain countries.

What you have described, Mr. Minister, is part of a multilateral approach. All the Canadian government's achievements and commitments are part of the multilateral approach.

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Given the seriousness of this situation, I wonder if the Canadian government should not be providing leadership. Could it take bilateral measures in the area of child labour, for example, by stating that it is willing to negotiate agreements with certain developing countries?

For example, preferential treatment could be granted to countries who have taken measures to deal with child labour. Extra trade incentives could be given to countries where child labour has been eliminated and special development assistance could be provided to developing countries who want to meet the standards.

These are concrete measures that the government could take immediately while still, of course, working within a multilateral context.

Mr. Minister, I would like to know how far the Canadian government is willing to go in terms of immediate and concrete measures in this area, given that you seem to have made this issue a priority within the Department of Foreign Affairs this year.

That was my question.

Mr. Axworthy: Thank you. It is essential to work within a multilateral context and also within a bilateral context.

We now have several projects in Africa, in about 25 countries I believe, to support the education of girls.

I would also like to say that, at the meetings I had with the Indian Department of Foreign Affairs, we discussed ways of setting up bilateral projects in the area of child labour and in particular a special pilot project.

Regarding the kinds of projects mentioned by Senator Pearson, I've had discussions with several Asian governments about providing policing assistance to help ensure compliance with the Convention on the Rights of the Child.

[English]

Oftentimes countries will pass the right laws but not have the resources to implement them. Thailand was a good example, where they were very anxious to get training from certain of our police forces in how to deal with child abuse cases and other matters.

At the Stockholm congress, we brought as part of our delegation the chief of police of London, Ontario, who has a nationwide reputation for having organized his police force around children's issues, and we've made him available as part of the discussions at the Stockholm conference to start sharing our information and to work on the whole law enforcement area.

So I agree that what we'll be doing is reorienting our ODA programs to be more sensitive to children's needs. I think Mr. Pettigrew can speak to it tomorrow, but I believe in the last five years we've spent over $600 million in our ODA programs, of which an increasing proportion is on the bilateral level.

As I'm responsible for the overall envelope, I have said that this is a foreign policy priority for Canada, and therefore our assistance must follow that priority in our various dealings when we sit down and work out what would be the relevant projects. But we had to get the agreement of the host countries themselves. That's oftentimes why it is very effective to work through multilateral organizations, UN organizations or others, or NGOs. We do a lot of work through groups like CARE Canada and others to provide that kind of support.

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What bothers me - and I'm sorry to give a long answer - and what I'm trying to get hold of is to have a coordinated strategy for it so it's not a kind of hit-and-miss, ad hoc arrangement, that we actually focus, saying how do we do things at the political level, the development level and the assistance level, and the law enforcement level, and focus where we can really make a difference rather than scatter-gunning all over the place, focus on a couple of countries where we can really make a difference, and work in very close cooperation with that individual country as opposed to doing a wide variety of projects in a wide variety of places, which in themselves do some good but don't have a kind of critical mass to them. That's what Mr. Pettigrew and I are working on right now.

The Chairman: Thank you. If you could reply briefly...everyone wants to ask a question. It's no rebuke to you, Minister, but -

[Translation]

Senator Pearson: If I understood your question correctly, you would like us to take a position that would be a carrot or a stick approach for countries by providing them with preferential tariffs if they respect the convention, and the opposite if they do not.

That seems quite complicated to me. For example, I know India well because I have lived there. This is a country that knows perfectly well that it has to solve this problem. It would be useless for us to create problems for them over child labour, because there are many children who work in India.

It must not be forgotten that what we want to do is ensure that there be less children working. If we tried to teach India a lesson, that country would be much less inclined to deal with the issue than if we leave it to them to solve that problem themselves. That has always been my impression.

As far as child labour goes, it should be pointed out that often children work because their families need money. If we want to solve the problem, we would have to compensate these families for the shortfall they will incur. I'd like to point out that Brazil will now be paying the equivalent of $25 to each family that will withdraw their child from work and put him or her in school. Brazil found that solution itself. Other countries did not find that solution for them.

I personally believe that that is the route we have to take.

The Chairman: Thank you, Senator.

[English]

Mrs. Gaffney.

Mrs. Gaffney (Nepean): Thank you very much, and welcome, Minister, and Senator Pearson.

Knowing I was going to be on this committee, I did a bit of thinking about how we could move and how Canada could help on this worldwide problem. Madame Debien asked what is our commitment. I don't think we know what our commitment is at this point in time.

In thinking of the many organizations we have - and we are always criticized for having organizations like the IPU or the CPA or whatever we have - we hear other members of Parliament and our public saying that maybe we aren't being fruitful in the things we do. I can see that these organizations are a prime place to start, and it probably wouldn't cost us anything to start there. We can get the wheels in motion at that point in time.

I'm a director of the CPA. We had our meeting at noon today and I raised the issue. I asked if this is not something Canada can have on the agenda at the next CPA meeting, that we can take the leadership role at CPA.

How do you do it, though, without offending someone? We know there are many Commonwealth nations - and India is one - where there is terrible child abuse in terms of child labour. How do you handle this sensitively? I suppose within the foreign affairs department there are people who can advise us on what we can take to that board, but I think the general consensus was, yes, we want to take a motion forward to the next CPA meeting on how the CPA can work in that direction. I guess I'm seeking your direction right now.

Mr. Axworthy: First, I think you're right about using international parliamentary organizations as a venue for addressing the issue. You'll get directly to the legislators who are involved in making the laws and also overseeing the laws, in some ways far more effectively than we can do government to government, where we deal organizationally.

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Secondly, I've taken up this subject with a number of other foreign ministers as I've met them in regional organizations or individually. My sense is that by and large there's a willingness to work together as long as one doesn't come in dictating or hectoring or whatever the case may be, as long as one comes in and says, ``There's a real problem here. We're interested in working on it. How can we be of assistance? How can we work together on the problems?''

As I said, in discussions with the Indian foreign minister and at the UNICEF meetings on Monday morning where we had the ministers from Bangladesh, Mali, Costa Rica and Egypt, they were saying, ``We know this is a problem. The time has come to do something about it. We can't do it by ourselves.'' It is very much an approach of partnership as opposed to one of divine right.

Third, we would be quite happy to work with any parliamentary organization that wanted to go to international meetings and present resolutions, and use those venues not just to do the traditional resolution but to bring members of Parliament here - we have lots of visiting delegations - and share with them our experience in working with some of these problems.

As I said earlier, the appearance of the chief of police of London at the Stockholm conference was seen very well. He shared his experience with us. There's one thing we have a great demand for from around the world. We have generally pretty good law enforcement, judicial and legal systems, and people want to know how they work, because many developing countries or countries coming out of authoritarian systems need that help. They just want to know. We have an enormous scope for providing that kind of knowledge and background.

If it is a recommendation of this committee that parliamentary associations be a venue, we would certainly cooperate with that.

Mr. Godfrey: Thank you, Mr. Minister.

The Chairman: Mr. Martin.

Mr. Martin (Esquimalt - Juan de Fuca): Thank you, Minister Axworthy, Senator Pearson and Ms Edwards, for coming to see us today.

First, I'd like to start by congratulating you, Minister, on the speech you made at the United Nations in which you dealt with and focused on some of the stresses in international security that we're going to be facing in the 21st century and that nobody is really addressing now.

Canada has a unique position in the world. It can actually take a leadership role with like-minded nations to bring together other countries to formulate a consensus on how we can address these stresses, particularly in moving our foreign policy from conflict management back to conflict prevention.

Both of you have spoken about the children who are terribly affected by war. We don't entirely know what those effects are nor can we predict what they will be in the future. I wonder whether we're actually going to be putting a greater emphasis on true conflict-prevention tactics as a part of our foreign policy, on identifying the precursors to conflict, which are there long before these conflicts actually blow up, and on addressing them in a constructive way with the belligerents on the ground, with our colleagues.

As a part of that, I wonder if you'll say whether we're going to ban land mines domestically. On the child-labour aspect and its more reprehensible sister or brother, child slavery, the two cornerstones of that are, as you've mentioned, poverty and providing the legal tools that will enable us to address that.

Are you going to be looking at cooperative efforts with the nations involved, particularly in using micro-credit, which worked so well in Bangladesh and India, along the lines of the Grameen Bank? Are we going to be working with the international financial institutions to provide micro-credit loans to these individuals, along with providing, as you mentioned, educational opportunities for the kids that will help to break the cycle of child labour that has such huge effects?

Mr. Axworthy: Do I have half an hour to answer that, Mr. Chairman?

The Chairman: Not half an hour.

Mr. Axworthy: First, in response to Mr. Martin, there's no question about it, we would like to be able to develop the equivalent competence and organizational ability on the civilian peacekeeping side that we have on the military peacekeeping side. That includes being able to have a quick, reactive, preventative roster of people who we can make available to various situations in which there are signs of difficulty. As I said in my UN speech, that means developing a roster of human rights officials who could go in and begin to work in countries to help improve legal systems, human rights commissions.

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I hope the committee will indulge me, but this also includes working in the area of journalism, for example, in order to make sure there's free access for media. The study that was done on the Rwanda genocide showed that the precursor to that was the hate propaganda that was used. The radios became the incitement vehicles for the ethnic hatreds that developed. We all bear the burden and glory of having a very free media in this country. That's wonderful because it does make sure that those things don't happen in the same way. So we want to look at how we can assist countries in developing free access to the media.

We also want to look at issues, as I said before, in law enforcement, at building up institutions that are publicly accountable and not simply dictated by any old mores or on a top-down thesis. So I'm working with my colleagues in the international portfolio on what we call a peace-building exercise, which would set aside a separate portfolio of resources, would work with the NGOs to develop the ability of this country to respond very quickly to UN or OAS or whatever the international organization, or in certain instances where there might be a direct request from the country. Haiti is a little bit of a test case for that. We're there in a military sense, but we also have very active programming on education, law enforcement, judicial work.

Christine Stewart and I just came back from Central America, where we met with Central American foreign ministers to talk about how, as they emerge into a democratic situation - Guatemala is a good case, where they are just now signing the peace accords - things are very delicate. What they really need are infusions of people in public administration, land surveys, things that are very practical-minded. We are trying to now develop a roster and resources to enable that kind of reaction to take place.

So I would hope, Mr. Chairman, that within a meeting or two we'd be able to share with members of the foreign affairs trade committee what we call that peace-building initiative, and how it would work.

On land mines, the Minister of Defence did announce today a policy decision that now sees us moving towards the full elimination of land mines and immediate destruction of two-thirds of the stock. As we move into agreements with other countries, we would then move to complete elimination. So it's another, further step. I think it puts Canada very much out in the lead on this issue. For the conference starting tomorrow, I think it will place a lot of pressure on other countries to begin following in those kinds of steps.

On the child labour and child slavery issues, we've given you some examples. If I can make a suggestion back to the committee, I think the proposal made by Mr. Martin about looking at the microcredit proposals - the Grameen Bank idea - are exceptionally interesting ones. There are so many good examples of how that bank has had enormous success. Huguette Labelle, who is the president of CIDA, is personally interested and has been doing some work on it. You might also ask Mr. Pettigrew about it further.

So we are looking at it, but I think if the committee were to grab hold of that issue and make recommendations on it in terms of how we can redirect our assistance, it would be enormously valuable to us to have that kind of affirmation.

The Chairman: Thank you, Mr. Axworthy.

[Translation]

Mr. Paré.

Mr. Paré (Louis-Hébert): Mr. Minister, you quite rightly pointed out that child labour is not a cause, but rather a result of poverty. Poverty is therefore the cause and we have to find ways of eliminating it.

I do not think that it is by emphasizing trade relations between Canada and developing countries that we will be able to eliminate poverty. In fact, in developing countries, often economic growth increases the gap between the rich and the poor.

Obviously, the elimination of poverty will be accomplished through sustainable human development. This includes, for example, basic education, mainly the education of girls. It also includes health services, developing democracy and a civil society.

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If you believe in that principle - and this is my specific question - do you not think that globalization and this frantic search for absolute competitiveness threaten the establishment of standards that might have enabled these developing countries to achieve the sustainable human security that you talked about?

[English]

Mr. Axworthy: I think globalization itself can bring very substantial benefits by encouraging a larger growth in economic well-being, as long as we can ensure that the growth, as you said, is sustainable and, also, that its distribution is more equitable. That's why the work that came out of the Rio Summit, which is now being followed through in a number of environmental fora, is very valuable. Secondly, as I indicated in my opening remarks, we've invested $700,000 this year with the ILO to start working on labour standards and how they can be developed along the way.

We are recognizing that there is no one single answer. Certainly, many of the developing countries that I've dealt with are very anxious to promote trade because they see it as a way of generating jobs in their communities. I really do believe that the exponential growth in trade has been very valuable overall. We've seen the emergence in Asia of the so-called tigers, which ten or fifteen years ago were developing nations. They're now very rapidly becoming developed nations. Countries like Malaysia, Thailand, and even the Philippines, are taking off. So there are good examples, and we're even beginning to see those signs now in Latin America, in Central America. Now that they've freed themselves of authoritarian systems, a trade bonanza is going on. The mercusor arrangement in Latin America between Brazil, Argentina, Chile and others is having enormous, powerful impacts.

As we find in our own domestic experience, however, the market by itself isn't sufficient to deal with poverty. You also have to invest in human resources, in education and training, in distribution. From a development point of view, that's why we now target about 25% of the ODA budget for those basic human needs issues. We are increasingly moving into areas where we can provide technical assistance, where we can provide trained personnel to help in colleges and universities, in public administration and courts. We can transfer our skills, not just our technologies.

There is a third point that I would mention, and I think Mr. Paré focused on it. We perhaps shouldn't focus on it, but the Minister of Finance addressed it in the House today. Perhaps still the most grinding barrier to poverty has been the debt burdens that many countries face. I think he was quite right. The decision taken in Washington this weekend to give major forgiveness to large parts of Third World debt is a very major step. Canada took its step several years ago by forgiving our own bilateral debts with countries. Now that it has taken place on an international level at the Paris Club, it will have enormous impacts. It means simply that rather than paying your dollar off to a foreign bank, you can keep it to invest in a job, in an environmental project or in a new piece of infrastructure. So, like Mr. Martin, I think that will have very great significance.

The Chairman: Minister, would you have time for two more questions from Mr. Godfrey and Mr. Bergeron?

Mr. Axworthy: Sure.

Mr. Godfrey (Don Valley West): Sir, I've been pondering - and I guess we all shall be - what works. What's the most effective thing to do? Is it the macro kinds of multilateral decisions and instruments that you talked of, or is it the kinds of cases that you both quoted, the $20,000 expenditures that actually change things on the ground? One might ask whether or not they have a demonstration effect or if are they just a one-off.

As I look at the list of things you outlined, from the commercial sexual exploitation of children, to children in unsafe conditions, from children as bonded labour to children in armed conflict, it seems to me that only on the first one - that is to say, commercial sexual exploitation of children - do we have any real levers in the developed world, because there is the case where often the consumer is a member of our own society, where the structure of what we do can be seen to be appropriate. As you said, in other cases so little of the labour that goes into export products is actually from children that it's not an appropriate instrument.

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I guess what I'm really asking - and it's as much a philosophical question or one based on examples from the past where an outside society has tried to suggest to another society changes to be made - is the most effective thing to do simply to work quietly with groups within those countries to multiply the examples you gave? Or can you really think of cases where world pressure - or world organizations, or multilateral action - has been sufficient in itself?

Mr. Axworthy: Mr. Godfrey, I wish there were simple formula home tool kits, where you could say ``there's the answer'', and if you could figure out where to put the screws into the right holes, you'd build a piece of furniture. It doesn't work that way; I think you have to work at the multidimensional level.

I do believe strongly that we must have international codes and conventions and protocols, because these do set a standard. Most countries - I would say all countries but there may be a few rogues out there who don't believe it - have a very strong compulsion to adhere to those standards. They want to be part of the community. They don't want to be sort of put on the debit side of the ledger or be embarrassed. It doesn't mean to say that they always live up to the codes; no country does. We don't. We have lots of ways to go in living up to our standards.

But if you don't have those codes you won't get the action, and I will use two specific examples about how a broad international multilateral convention.... Just recently, the nations in Southeast Asia - India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, and others - signed a regional commitment to end child labour in hazardous industries by the year 2000, and I think that's purely by international pressure and by the fact that they've signed on the code.

Similarly, in Central America, in each of the Central American countries, where five or six years ago there was no discussion about children's rights at all, they have now all signed on the convention, but more than that, they now have individual codes and conventions in each of their countries, and they are saying to countries like ours, ``Can you help us now implement them?''

I think as you go up and down the ladder you have to have those international conventions. At the same time, you need structural changes economically. You're not going to solve poverty - Mr. Paré is right - simply through a couple of good development projects. That is part of it, but you have to have structural changes - in trade, in investment, in the way in which the distribution takes place. It also includes a degree of labour standards, which is why we support the work of the ILO in working on those things, as we did under the NAFTA agreements. Part of the conditionality of our joining was to have standards on environment and on labour.

Thirdly, and I think this goes back to Mr. Martin's point, we must find the most effective way of targeting our assistance. My sense is that there is a real willingness in a number of countries - if we are prepared to provide some resources and technical know-how and back-up - to begin addressing some of the gaps in child labour. That means the enforcement side of it, and also, as Senator Pearson said, developing the remedial projects: enabling a family to find a way of putting their child back to school without necessarily losing income. Those are the pilot projects we discussed with the foreign minister from India this week.

Senator Pearson: Could I just make one additional comment? With respect to India, there has been analysis done by their own economists who have come to understand that no development is sustainable on the backs of uneducated children - you can make a certain push, but you get stuck - and that the countries where they can sustain development are also ones that have high levels of education. An area of India such as Kerala is doing better and has less child labour than other areas of the country. It's still very poor, but even within that context there's an economic implication of not having an educated population. Within India they have done their own reports and are beginning to understand that.

Mr. Axworthy: All we have to do is go back to the report that was tabled two weeks ago on literacy, which shows that even in our own country there is a very strong correlation between high literacy and high employment and low literacy and low employment, in different areas. That is pretty much a common factor, I think, in virtually every country of the world.

The Chairman: Thank you, Minister.

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Mr. Bergeron.

[Translation]

Mr. Bergeron (Verchères): Mr. Minister, thank you for having taken the time to speak to us this afternoon.

According to the answers that you gave to our questions, and according to your brief, you seem to be aware, as we are, that child labour is in fact a phenomenon that is symptomatic of much more global problems such as poverty and war in developing countries.

As you know, I am particularly concerned about the current situation in Burundi. I would like to ask you a somewhat more specific and technical question than those that have been put to you so far.

In your brief you refer to meetings and round tables that took place with the private sector regarding voluntary codes of conduct in the area of child labour.

My question, Mr. Minister, is this. Could you bring us up to date on the discussions that have taken place with the private sector, and can you tell us if such a voluntary code of conduct seems to be the direction that Quebec and Canadian private sector companies are taking?

[English]

Mr. Axworthy: Mr. Chairman, to my best ability I will do that. Maybe Lucie Edwards can add.

On coming into the portfolio, I asked the Human Rights Research and Education Centre at the University of Ottawa to examine, in consultation with the business community, what would be the most effective techniques or mechanisms for trying to meet questions of labour rights. Their report back, and I'm sure we could share it with the committee, was that -

The Chairman: Mr. Mendes is speaking next.

Mr. Axworthy: Well, then, Mr. Mendes, I won't take up your time.

Their recommendation to us was that we should not work on a broad, general code of ethics, because in their assessment it doesn't work, but you could work on specific country areas. Nigeria is an example where we're trying to mount a certain degree of pressure, as you know, on what's happening in that country. Another is the question of Burundi, where my colleague, Mr. Pettigrew, had a meeting in June with all the donor countries in this area. If we did country-specific areas, brought together the business communities that do business in those areas, and got them to agree on what would be the standard of conduct in relation to the conventions on rights we have signed, that might be an effective technique.

We're holding one consultation.... I believe October 10 is the first one.

Perhaps Ms Edwards can give you more detail on the actual follow-up on that general direction we're taking.

[Translation]

Ms. Lucie Edwards (Director General, Global and Humanitarian Issues, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade): Thank you, Mr. Minister.

We have been thinking about this. The Canadian business community is also very interested in this initiative, because they do not want to be in a situation where they're being boycotted by consumers because they don't understand what is happening. They want to have a clear understanding of the attitude and the conduct they should adopt in certain foreign countries.

The initiative has come mainly from the business community. They have acted in co-operation with universities and governments and they prefer that this be voluntary. It is not only a question of unions' rights or children's rights. They are also looking for solutions to environmental problems. What can they do abroad, in terms of the environment, that would be acceptable? This is work that we must do with them. I cannot tell you that there is a time frame or a national document available. Sometimes this happens by sector. Hydro Ontario, for example, has already undertaken this type of activity.

It will probably happen industry by industry, and sector by sector. There are also other solutions. Companies such as Bridgehead and OXFAM Canada were set up to identify work and products and more efficient ways of dealing co-operatively with workers abroad, and to find ways of encouraging consumers in Canada to choose the best of these identified products.

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Consumers cannot choose all their clothes this way, but it does allow them to make a choice, in the same way that they make choices in Canadian stores. This helps change the environment and it also helps educate.

[English]

Mr. Axworthy: I would like to make a comment. If the committee thinks I'm out of order, I'd certainly take their recommendation.

I think one of the great untapped resources for applying standards in this country is young people themselves. We don't spend nearly enough time listening to them or helping them to get mobilized.

I'll give you an example that I think colleagues from the province of Quebec would be interested in. This summer a group of students from my constituency came back from exchanges in Quebec. I had lunch with them to find out what they talked about.

Contrary to what you might think, they don't talk about things we often talk about in the House of Commons. They said they really got interested in talking about children's rights overseas. They had agreed - these were high school students primarily in Quebec and Manitoba - that they were now going to start going to The Gap and other kinds of stores to ask: Where are these products from? What are you doing with them? How are you dealing with it?

They talked about how they're going to make these little visitations from place to place. That's what was really giving them some momentum. They felt this was a broader cause or objective that they should work on.

I'll tell you, as members of Parliament, when you go to schools, talk to these young people about it. I guarantee you will find a willing response to get organized. There's a real untapped potential for young people to take this issue on, because they understand how important it is. Many of them work in McDonald's and such places, and they know how sometimes they get used. They understand this issue very well. They also know that they can do something about it.

I would think that if this committee, in its work, could recommend ways in which we could support that kind of involvement by young people in response, we could do something really powerful.

[Translation]

Mr. Bergeron: Mr. Minister, I have two other questions.

I know that you are currently discussing a voluntary code of conduct, but would you be willing to go so far as to bring in legislation in that area, and would you consider periodically publishing a list of businesses that violate that voluntary code of conduct?

[English]

Mr. Axworthy: That was one of the specific questions we posed to the Human Rights Research and Education Centre. They felt that would not work where it has been applied in other countries.

In the case of South Africa, where there was the Sullivan code, that was basically a volunteer code, and it worked much more effectively. I would suggest that you ask questions of Mr. Mendes and other people.

At this point, my feeling, as Ms Edwards pointed out, is that there's as much an interest in the business community to find an answer to this. If you start getting into legislation, then you start getting into fairly abstract principles that may not apply to every situation. I hope you would explore that as part of your hearings and come back to me with your findings.

The Chairman: Mr. Mendes is waiting to answer that question.

I would like to thank you for your generosity with your time. You've been most generous and helpful in starting our hearings. I would like to thank Senator Pearson and Ms Edwards as well for their contributions. You've been very helpful. We appreciate you coming. We can thank my colleagues for their questions, as well.

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The Chairman: We will begin the second stage of the meeting. Some of the members have to leave early, but we do have a quorum. There is a vote scheduled to take place in approximately 25 minutes. We may have to break for the vote, but currently we're trying to talk to the whips. We hope we can stay here and have continuous testimony.

We have six witnesses with us representing five organizations and I'd just like to introduce them briefly. Betty Plewes has appeared before the regular committee often as the president and chief executive officer of the Canadian Council for International Cooperation. Errol Mendes was introduced by the minister previously and is from the Human Rights Research and Education Centre.

[Translation]

Jean Rock Roy is the director of communications with Club 2/3. Serge Fleury is the coordinator of the youth programs with Jeunesse du Monde. Jacques Tremblay and Manon Bernier represent Défense des enfants internationale.

Thank you.

[English]

If we could begin with the order listed here, we will begin with Betty Plewes from the Canadian Council for International Cooperation.

Ms Betty Plewes (President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Council for International Cooperation): Thank you. We're very pleased to be here today and congratulate you on this topic. Last week I received in my office two women, one from India and one from Bangladesh, both of whom were activists on women's rights.

I said to them next week our parliamentary committee is going to be looking at the issue of children's labour rights. What would you like to say to them?

One of the women answered, why is it you people in the west are so concerned about children's labour rights? Why aren't you concerned about family rights and women's rights and children's rights to clean water and to education? So I'm very pleased with the introductory remarks of the minister and the questions that have been coming from the committee, which show we're going to situate this issue of children's labour rights in the larger development context.

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[Translation]

Parliament asked the subcommittee to suggest measures that Canada should take to eliminate child labour. Parliament has already been given certain signals. The prime minister publicly stated that he was going to restrict imports on products manufactured by children.

Two private member's bills include amendments to the Criminal Code that would provide for legal action against Canadians participating in the sexual exploitation of children abroad. Mr. Axworthy also indicated that children's rights should be at the heart of Canada's human rights policy.

All these signals demonstrate that Parliament is trying to improve the situation of children, a situation that is a concern for the majority of Canadians, the media and many groups working in development or human rights.

We congratulate the subcommittee on having undertaken consultations in this area and we wish it good luck in the choices it will have to make after having heard a multitude of facts and recommendations through these round tables.

All organizations start with the premise that the exploitation of child labour is a hideous practice. However, they will all suggest various ways of eliminating this problem. You will learn that child labour is a thousand-year old tradition whose origin varies depending on the country and that is expanding.

You will also hear about rampant urbanization that is increasing the number of child workers in cities. You will learn that in rural areas, nine children out of ten carry out agricultural work that, for the most part, is dangerous. You will also be told that some children are the main breadwinners of their families. The International Labour Organization will also add that children paid for their work represent only a minute percentage of child workers worldwide.

[English]

You'll be told that in Bangladesh a daughter is safer in a garment factory, by her mother's side, than she is alone at home, and that some child labour isn't so bad because it offers traditionally acceptable socialization into adulthood. But others will remind you that all child labour violates international workers' rights and the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, which Canada played a key role in drafting. Yet some types of child labour, for example domestic labour, may be the closest thing some children have to a social safety net.

The literature on child labour is rife with conflicting analyses. Even shared analyses give rise to diverse prescriptions. Some analysts have argued that child labour is a symptom of deeper social and economic problems and that policy should treat the causes as well as the symptoms.

Some groups will say child labour is the flip side of universal compulsory education, and if governments provide the latter they will inevitably eliminate the former. Others, notably some NGOs in Pakistan, argue that the public education system is dysfunctional, the curriculum is irrelevant, corporal punishment and humiliation are endemic, and children routinely flee. Naturally they would prefer to see changes. Some families find the real cost of education is too high, and many parents genuinely believe their children's prospects will be better if they go to work and learn a trade.

Among children's rights advocates there are those who argue eloquently for immediate and total abolition as the only principled solution. They say international legislative action, including child labour import bans, are an important symbolic if not necessarily effective strategy. Others argue that international threats of reprisal will drive child labour underground and outside the sphere of regulatory activity. They also argue that the vast majority of factory children working in domestic industry are immune from international sanctions.

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Some reformers say we should first seek to abolish the most hideous forms of child labour: bonded and slave labour, commercial sexual exploitation and the employment of children in hazardous conditions. Some also say that the Canadian government, through its foreign aid program, should support labour organizations, human rights groups and NGOs to work with employers and developing country governments to improve the wages and working conditions of children through better safety standards and on-site schools and recreational facilities.

But abolitionists argue that any effort to improve the conditions under which children work supports employers who are already in breach of domestic laws and international conventions that prohibit child labour or guarantee the right to education.

After a few hours of these consultations, you may feel that for every analysis there is an equally compelling counter-analysis. But there are some common areas of consensus. The situation isn't hopeless.

Canada can and should take action to improve the prospects of the world's children because child labour is reprehensible, because it violates rights enshrined in international law and because it robs societies of their most precious human resource: healthy, educated adults. Without them there can be no sustainable human development. Without them a society is indefinitely condemned to poverty.

So what can Canada do? Child labour exists in a particular social and economic context. We believe the growing disparity between the world's rich and its poor is a significant factor behind the rise in child labour. This conclusion is borne out not just by the increase in child labour in developing countries but also by its growing incidence in the poorest sectors of developed countries.

Export-oriented structural adjustment programs have destroyed local and regional economies, marginalizing the poorest people in the poorest countries. They have displaced rural families through land use conversion in favour of cash crops and forced governments to divert public funds from social spending, especially primary education. This kind of disenfranchisement is the very opposite of sustainable human development.

The council has often argued that popular participation in the stewardship of land and resources is a prerequisite for sustainable human development. When people lose control over their means of subsistence, they also lose the power to control their future.

The plight of garment industry workers in Bangladesh is a case in point. According to a joint ILO-UNICEF study in Bangladesh, the country's economy is largely built on clothing exports, but the ownership of factories is by joint ventures and much of the capital comes from overseas.

The report notes that an abundant supply of cheap labour is the main asset Bangladesh brings to the industry. The technical know-how, management expertise, capital equipment, fabric, threads, buttons, rivets, even the stones in stonewashed denim come from outside the country. And, says the report, if the climate for production in Bangladesh were to deteriorate or a cheaper labour market were to emerge elsewhere, foreign owners and buyers could pull out on short notice with relatively little cost to themselves.

Canada should support macroeconomic and development policies that reverse these trends; policies that favour economic growth with equity; policies that favour job creation through support for small and medium-sized business; policies that address multinational price-fixing, speculative capital flows and northern monopolies on new technologies; and policies that reduce governments' debt-saving costs.

You will hear many policy prescriptions in the coming weeks addressing the problem of child labour and fair trade. We would ask that in assessing these recommendations you favour measures that involve positive incentives rather than punitive sanctions. If you choose to support international consumer movements, these should be built on solidarity and mutual understanding, not on a ``the north knows best'' ethic. Rather than exclude products made in ways Canada considers morally repugnant, why not encourage trade with producers who guarantee certain standards of work and a wage that assures basic needs are met?

Some child rights activists in India have argued that pressure to withdraw children from the labour force should come from a consumer movement within the country, not from foreigners. You will hear many recommendations consistent with this framework. The ones we would like to offer pertain primarily to Canada's development assistance program, arguably the most powerful policy instrument within Canada's exclusive control to tackle child labour both directly and indirectly. Its diminishing volume - a 45% cut over the last eight years - is all the more reason to use it with care. Canada should examine its own behaviour, how it spends aid dollars and whether that spending ameliorates the condition of children and families or worsens it.

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CIDA should use the principles and provisions of the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child as a framework for international development assistance. This recommendation comes directly from the ten-member UN committee, which reported to Parliament after its meeting with the Canadian delegation last May, and we endorse it.

CIDA should create a child labour impact assessment tool to ensure that CIDA-funded development projects, whether bilateral, by joint venture or in partnership with Canadian or southern NGOs, do not create new demands for child labour. Canada could piggyback on some of the fine work already done by the Norwegian agency for development cooperation and a joint effort by several CCIC members, including Pueblito Canada, Save the Children-Canada, and Canada World Youth, to design an NGO project assessment tool.

CIDA should use policy reciprocity, not conditionality, to further its agenda on fair trade and fair labour standards. One of our members, the Steelworkers Humanity Fund, has proposed that development pacts between Canada and select countries could combine trade incentives, development assistance and labour rights criteria into a single bilateral agreement that would enable both countries to move toward fairer working conditions, including protection for home garment workers here in Canada.

CIDA should support public education and consumer awareness of human rights issues through its development information program.

CIDA, in conjunction with Foreign Affairs, should continue to encourage dialogue among the private sector, labour groups, governments and grassroots coalitions. These round tables are exemplary, as is Canada's financial support for the ILO's international program on the elimination of child poverty, whose multifaceted approach is grounded in tripartite dialogue.

CIDA should increase the targeting of aid to basic human needs to 50% of ODA as set out in the NGO Copenhagen Declaration, with special emphasis on the basic needs of children: primary education, primary health care and housing.

Finally, as you hear arguments in favour of import restrictions, trade barriers, sourcing guidelines and labelling schemes, we would ask this committee to seek a submission from Fair Trademark Canada, which is working to improve access to mainstream Canadian markets by small, democratically organized producers.

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

The Chairman: Thank you, Ms Plewes.

I neglected to mention that the documents are here for these presentations. Committee members may want to consult them.

The second thing is that Ms Plewes took a little bit over ten minutes, and that would be an ideal length for future presentations if possible.

Mr. Mendes.

Professor Errol P. Mendes (Director, Human Rights Research and Education Centre, University of Ottawa): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

[Translation]

I will be giving my brief in English, but I will try to express myself in French during the question period.

[English]

The title of my presentation is ``The Agony of the Innocents: The Abuse of Child Labour in India''. This paper was the product of a mission to India at the invitation of the Indian human rights commission, in partnership with the Canadian Human Rights Commission and another NGO organization.

India provides a searing insight into the reality that the moral outrage comprising the exploitation of child labour in developing countries does not have any simple solutions, much as we would wish it to be the case. In many of these countries the sources of the problem are similar and include the following.

The first is cultural expectations of children as an integral part of the socio-economic survival of the family and community.

The second is unrelenting poverty, which mandates, in the logic of the prisoners of such poverty, larger families for greater chances of economic survival, further enlarging the potential pool for exploitation. This is especially true in the rural areas where the overwhelming percentage of child labour, including bonded labour, is found.

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Third, there is environmental degradation of the countryside, causing mass flight to the cities and the slow death of rural economies.

Fourth, on arrival in overcrowded cities, the disintegration of family units through alcoholism, unemployment, etc., occurs, setting the stage for emergence of armies of street children, child labourers and child prostitutes.

Fifth, there is an emergence in the cities of export industries based on mass production factories utilizing low-skilled technologies and maintaining competitive positions through low wages and low labour standards.

Sixth, there is a lack of effective enforcement of the right to free and compulsory elementary education, which is enshrined in the constitutions of many of these countries, including India. It has recently been enshrined in the convention on the rights of children.

Seventh, there is cultural discrimination against the female girl child.

To turn to India as a case study, the statistics are unable to truly define the parameters of the problem. For the purposes of even an attempt at some definitions, it is assumed that the ILO standard and, more recently, the standards in the Convention on the Rights of the Child define the problem as relating to children under 14 and to work that endangers a child's safety, health or welfare. It can also be defined as work that exploits the child as a cheap substitute for adult labour, work that prejudices or forecloses on education and training, and work that robs children of their childhood and forecloses on their future.

A statistic that infers how deep the problem may run in India relates to the number of children who do not attend formal education. Out of an estimated 179 million children eligible to attend school in 1981, according to that year's census in India, 13.59 million were classified as child labourers, while 99 million attended school. That amazingly left 66.72 million unaccounted for. Perhaps many were child labourers, particularly those in the 10- to 14-year age group. The figures are truly staggering.

The above situation exists despite provisions in the Indian constitution that mandate free and compulsory education for all children below 14 - article 45 - and explicit constitutional and legislative provisions that prohibit child labour.

India also has the largest number of child labourers in the world working in hazardous industries. To give you an example of the agony inflicted on the children in these hazardous industries, let me give you a few examples as recounted by a leading anti-child-labour activist.

Children working in stone quarries and slate industries inhale silicon dust - which forms patches of silica - thereby reducing their capacity to absorb oxygen. In one village engaged in these activities, there are hardly any old people. Nearly one-third of those who have married are widowed. Young persons are forced to work to aid their dying parents and kin before they too choke to death before the age of 40.

In the glass bangle and glass-blowing industries children work with furnace temperatures of 700 to 1,800 degrees centigrade. These children are often forced to work 24-hour shifts in the cyanide and silica fumes because the employers do not want the furnace heat to be wasted. Tuberculosis is widespread and the lifespan is short. Many children who die from workplace accidents are immediately disposed of without inquiry, compensation or ceremony.

The legal framework in India - or the lack thereof - reinforces this agony of innocents. The existing child labour laws have only the effect of changing the conditions of child labour, rather than eliminating or reducing it. For example, the Factories Act and the Minimum Wages Act strictly regulate the use of child labour in factories and industrial enterprises. However, employers evade their statutory obligations by contracting out to so-called ``master craftsmen'' who employ children within the home without fear of prosecution.

Subcontracting also enables employers to falsify the size of their workplace and evade minimum employment standards. Bribery is rampant among labour inspectors, and the government is reluctant to enforce child labour provisions because of political pressure from employers and the attraction of foreign exchange earned by export industries employing child labour. Indeed, the worst form of child labour is bonded child labour, a particularly vicious form of child labour that still ignores the legal framework. Although outlawed since 1947, this form of slavery continues.

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The Bonded Labour System Abolition Act of 1976 imposes a sentence of three years and a fine for those engaging in this practice. However, powerful landlords who make politicians indebted to them continue the system unpunished.

There is also an increasing feminization of child labour in both rural and urban areas. Traditional discrimination against the female child within the family and in access to education and training accounts for this trend. Statistics on female child labourers are unrivalled because they tend to be invisible in census data. The majority of female child labourers may not be counted because they tend to be in the non-productive home-based and marginal work sectors.

I offer in the paper details of some of the success stories and some of the failures in India. I draw your attention in particular to the success story in the state of Kerala, which shows, as the minister has said, that rising literacy levels and enhanced social consciousness against child labour are extremely effective in reducing child labour, even in areas of high unemployment and poverty. It shows that poverty alone may not be the single greatest cause of child labour, that lack of social consciousness and literacy levels may indeed be some of the deepest causes of child labour.

Turning to where Canadian intervention may be particularly useful, I suggest in the paper seven areas. I will leave you to read them yourselves, because my time is short, but I want to draw your attention to two that may be particularly relevant given the scarce resources of Canada and the need to develop partnerships and collaboration.

In intervention number four, I suggest you assist the government, the civil society in India and national institutions such as the Indian human rights commission to investigate in particular the exploitation of child labour in hazardous industries and the agricultural sector; to disseminate the results amongst the communities affected to raise social consciousness locally, nationally and internationally; and to involve the community to stop the exploitation.

There are some hazardous industries, for example the gem-polishing industry, that have not been investigated as to the long-term solutions for child labour. This is despite the fact that this industry is one of the highest earners of foreign exchanges in India.

Finally, I wish to throw out a challenge through intervention number eight that maybe it is time to gather the forces of the business community, the civil society and the universities to develop and promote amongst the industrial sectors in India that use child labour technologies that eliminate the need for cheap child labour and improve at the same time the productivity and competitive positions of these industries.

In my visit to India I saw very low-skill technologies that could so easily be replaced by higher-level technologies we have in Canada. Therefore, maybe one of the dramatic suggestions of this committee could be to call a national conference that combines the best brains of industry, science and technology from the universities to talk about how we can both develop our own position commercially in India and at the same time alleviate the child labour situation in India through, for example, replacing low-skill technologies with higher-level technologies.

I want to end by saying that sometimes the exploitation of child labour may seem very far off to Canadians, but I suggest the analogy they should keep in mind is that the human family is like a tree. If we ignore the roots, which are the children of the world - and a large segment of the children of the world is in another part of the world - we are destroying the very trunk of the tree representing the human family.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

[Translation]

The Chairman: The next speaker is Jean Rock Roy.

Mr. Jean Rock Roy (Director of Communications, Club 2/3): Mr. Chairman, on behalf of Club 2/3, I would like to say that we are very pleased to appear before this committee.

Club 2/3 is an international education and cooperation organization that was founded in 1970. It gave itself the name Club 2/3 because at that time, more than two thirds of humanity were destined to become progressively impoverished and to suffer social injustice.

Young people founded this club and it has been in existence for 25 years now. Its mission focuses on young people, young people here and in the Third World, who represent two thirds of humanity. They now represent three fourths of humanity, but we will not change our name because of that. That means that there are also problems here in terms of young people, labour and impoverishment.

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That is why the first part of our mission is to raise the level of awareness of young people here and elsewhere about the Third World and about global interdependence. Thus, Club 2/3 recently welcomed Craig Kielburger to Quebec to speak on child labour.

The purpose was not to throw stones at other countries or raise the issue of scandals elsewhere. Rather it was to put the issue to young people in Quebec. We invited him and he met many students in several schools. He described exceptionally horrifying situations in other countries, which helped raise public awareness.

Thus, part of our mission is education and I have just provided an example of that. It also includes development projects.

In our development projects and educational projects we emphasize the fight against poverty that all of you here, the witnesses as well as the minister, have identified as being the source and the cause of child labour.

We go into the field to meet these needs. We are practitioners, not academics. We do not have a lot of money to carry out research. That is why we are so grateful to organizations such as the ones that preceded us and that can provide very sophisticated statistics in these areas.

We however are at the heart of the action and we must reflect on child labour. For example, in Brazil or Manilla, we work with street children. We often take them out of the street to help them become integrated back into their families and then back into society. And to help them become integrated back into society we, horror of horrors!, even teach them to work.

We who work in international cooperation think that there is a type of work for children that can be helpful in integration back into society. A distinction therefore has to be made between work that frees children and work that oppresses them. Of course, we are not referring to child slavery. When children are exploited, we strongly condemn this and we condemn it as strongly as everyone else. We simply want to demonstrate that in the field, it is sometimes much more difficult to make these concrete choices.

In terms of solutions, we think that the Department of International Trade and trading countries should come up with new and more appropriate standards. That must happen quickly, because 50 years of commercial trade, bilateral agreements and development assistance do not seem to have given very positive results. Reform in the area of labour standards must be done very quickly.

That is why we continue to put an emphasis on work in the field. We put young people here in contact with young people there and their situations. This is a good thing because many young people here have to work, in this beautiful country of Canada and in our beautiful province of Quebec, where we tend to concentrate our work.

I was told recently that 30% of children aged 10 to 12 years are already working in Canada. More than 60% of teenagers in high school are working. I don't know if I should give my full backing to these figures, but we should always be careful about seeing the mote in our brother's eye and not the beam in our own.

We have literacy projects in several countries. We also work on freeing families from poverty.

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We believe that this is the way we can have the most impact and the way we can most affect child labour, through the technical training of children.

Of course, Canada must take legal and legislative action and must also provide leadership if it can. This is necessary, but it should not serve as a smoke screen or as a way of having people forget that over the past three years Canada has been making drastic, continuous and progressive cuts to NGOs and to international cooperation budgets. So we could perhaps show international leadership in terms of international labour standards.

The studies that we have read and leafed through show that there are many international standards. The problem is that they are never applied. Perhaps they make Canada and the Canadian government look good internationally, but looking good should definitely not serve to justify continuous cuts in development. We should have the courage to find very practical solutions such as barring the import of products made using child labour. NGOs should definitely not come across children in developing countries who are working for industries that have received grants from our government. That would be shocking and all the more scandalous.

It is with these cautious thoughts that Club 2/3 concludes its brief presentation. I would like emphasize once again that we have difficulty in understanding where the consistency is within a government that can take legal and legislative leadership but that continues to cut international cooperation budgets when everyone seems to indicate that the solution lies in the latter. Thank you.

The Chairman: Thank you.

Mr. Serge Fleury, from Jeunesse du Monde.

Mr. Serge Fleury (Coordinator of Youth Programs, Jeunesse du Monde): Good afternoon. First, allow me to thank you for having invited us to speak on this topic.

I will start with a brief description of Jeunesse du Monde, its activities, its philosophy, and you will quickly understand my concerns that I will address to the government of Canada regarding measures that it should take to enforce the respect of human rights nationally and internationally.

Jeunesse du Monde is an organization that has been working in French Canada on education and international solidarity with young people aged 12 to 30 years old. Each year, more than 5,000 young people from Quebec and francophone communities in Canada participate at various levels of this organization in information, education, direct intervention and cooperation activities. In many many ways, these young people are in contact with other youth organizations internationally, on every continent.

Our organization's vision of young people is based on the conviction that because half of the planet is under 25 years old, young people must be seen as major social actors, in Canada and throughout the world, today and in the future.

Within Jeunesse du Monde, children and young people are called upon to become active, responsible and dependable citizens, at home, throughout the world they live in, within their immediate community, obviously, their country, and their planet.

The goals of this organization are based therefore on an understanding of a world where young people will be active in social change while respecting the environment, ethnic plurality, sustainable development, and the improvement of living conditions, in this country and abroad. This approach is based on an explicit recognition of the abilities of individuals and partners to take responsibility for themselves and to contribute to their own development in harmony with their society and with the global world village.

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Respectful and responsible collaboration and partnerships are also the cornerstones of Jeunesse du Monde's activities with its Canadian and international partners.

Jeunesse du Monde's educational, training and cooperation activities are based on research into international issues and world problems. Day after day, we work on changes we would like to see within multilateral relationships and local and international development, on bringing about better mutual understanding and a fairer society through the general improvement of the quality of life of young people throughout the world.

One of the unique features of Jeunesse du Monde is its ability to develop, in cooperation with its partners, original and innovative approaches - some people would say young approaches - to solving various social problems. It was mentioned earlier that young people should be called upon to find solutions and Jeunesse du Monde has been working for nearly 40 years now in setting up initiatives developed by young people and for young people.

We do this by seeking the contribution of those who are directly affected by a situation, by offering them support and often a unique international stage. For example, Jeunesse du Monde, along with 12 local organizations from three countries and six cities on three continents, developed a project to promote creativity and insight through circus activities in order to reintegrate young street people from the North and the South into society.

This is now a major international project; African and European organizations, among others, are interested in this approach and would like to use it in their own areas.

It's therefore within this constructive vision of youth and of international development that Jeunesse du Monde would like to share its expectations regarding Canada's foreign policy, especially in the area of young people and children's rights.

Jeunesse du Monde has a number of points to make. First, we are convinced that problems and solutions should not be considered separately.

We hear a great deal of talk about the exploitation of children as being a problem that exists outside of Canada and on which the Canadian government should take action at the macroeconomic or political level. However, the feeling is that involvement should be international in scope, and there is very little real concern about the link that exists between the exploitation of children at home and in the developing world.

Mr. Roy, who spoke before me, was saying that 35% of children aged 10 to 12 are reported to be active in the labour force. These data come from the Quebec Department of Education and describe the situation in that province. I don't think we can blindly apply this figure to the rest of the country. However, we must agree that the population of Quebec is large enough for this to be disturbing, and to at least cause us to ask some questions about the decisions we're making as a society.

Statistics show that 35% of young people aged 10 to 12 are working. By the time children are 16 years old, the age of mandatory schooling in Canada, 60% of them are in the labour market one way or another.

We have to take these data into consideration, because while we may not be able to make a direct parallel between the exploitation of children in the developing world and the fact that Canadian children are working, we must nevertheless acknowledge that so many young people are working here that their work takes different forms. The example of street vendors or domestic workers was given, and the range goes to the other extreme of economic activity. Close to 10% of young people work more than 30 hours a week, while attending school. Consequently, we must ask some serious questions about the respective contribution of work and school to the optimal development of young people.

In this respect Jeunesse du Monde would like to emphasize some information that is not very well-known. One of the questions asked by the sub-committee was what Canadians should know about work by young people. We should know that there are often work accidents involving children, although there is not a great deal of documentation on this. In the last five years, the death of at least two children were officially linked to their work.

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I say "at least" because it is difficult to get information on this, and there's little recognition of it. It would certainly be a good idea to study the information on this phenomenon so that we can ask better questions both about what is going on here and our interpretation of it. I think this could also help us adopt a different stand as to the role we would like to play internationally.

We at Jeunesse du Monde think it is important to look at the needs of young people and to offer them a more all-encompassing response. The issues of poverty and the cultural and social integration of young people in this society have been raised. It is important for Jeunesse du Monde to ensure that work in this area can be done in conditions acceptable to young people.

Our message today is not a hard line position with respect to child labour.

We think the distinction made between work and education is a false one. As we were hearing in the discussion earlier, some would like to abolish child labour. However, we think there must be an understanding that both through work and school young people are trying to explore the links to civil society and the world of work.

Yes, we must be alarmed about critical or extreme situations, but we must consider especially the value we want to place on work and school, and especially the links between the two.

I don't know whether this is true of developing countries, but here, young people see a combination of work and school as a way of protecting themselves. They no longer trust the educational system alone to guarantee their future. Young people today want to give themselves and their family a minimum level of security or an improved quality of life. These are the considerations young people consider in developing strategies for work and school.

We think the Canadian government should definitely review the connections between work and school by developing a labour force policy at the local and national levels. It should provide for effective links between the world of education and the world of work and offer alternatives that show respect for both, because both are part of the developmental and learning process that shapes young people.

There have been studies of co-op programs which showed that this alternation between school and work provided greater control over the conditions of work and also allowed the working environment to play an educational role. This is something that young people do not have at the moment in their work experience, because they often end up working in subsectors with no relevance to their educational program.

In our view, setting national standards in this area could have an impact internationally. We would be sending a message to the international community about our views on work and education and the value of these two activities.

Employers also have a key responsibility. The Canadian government must get the maximum possible commitment from them. Earlier, we were talking about the concept of voluntary commitment by employers. I think there is good reason to question this as regards the exploitation of children.

Moreover, when we think about an improved quality of life and improved working conditions, voluntary initiatives on the part of employers is certainly an interesting, but not exclusive, way of involving employers as partners with respect to the employment of young people.

It is important to offer valid alternatives to young people. We maintain that the primary role of children is to experience their childhood. In our view, the question should not come down to the right to work or the right to go to school, but rather the right to a childhood and adolescence.

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We therefore think it is essential to recognize that children have a right to experience creativity, to develop their imagination and to explore.

NGOs should also be supported in efforts to develop concrete alternatives for young people, not only so as to offer them non-exploitative work, but also to offer them educational alternatives. I'm thinking of apprenticeships, training, and particularly an exploration of the abilities and personal, collective and community skills and knowledge of young people, regardless of the country in which they live.

Jeunesse du Monde, like le Club 2/3, is concerned about the reduced financial support by the Canadian government for NGOs. We think there is some double talk going on here because, on the one hand, Canada is the standard bearer for the Convention on the Rights of the Child, and, on the other hand, it also fails to take direct action for children on the pretence that such involvement does not meet the criteria of utility, profitability and productivity. These factors often cause children to get into the labour force, but this often degenerates into a situation in which they are exploited.

Consequently, we think that one of the first duties of the Canadian government is to review the support it is providing to NGOs for international aid to finance concrete activities in the field. Such activities would offer young people alternatives, not only with respect to education, but also with respect to jobs, and particularly the exploration of other creative activities that are significant for the community without necessarily meeting any criteria regarding productivity or profitability.

I would like to conclude by commenting on one of the arguments we've heard earlier about the employment of younger children. People often contrast their employment to that of older people, either young adults or even adults, and say that we have to try to get young people out of these jobs, because they are taking jobs away from adults.

We must be realistic about this. Jobs that are currently being done by young people would not necessarily be done by an adult, and certainly not under the same conditions as if they were being done by the young people. So if we want to look at the issue of child exploitation, we should not contrast work by children and work by adults. Rather, we should look at the conditions under which these jobs can and should be done, particularly with a view to getting young people into the labour force, and contributing to their community, family and social life.

In closing, I would like to remind you that for Jeunesse du Monde, it is important that young people be the first parties involved in their own development and that of their community. Not only for the future, because of course our children are our future, but also at the moment, whatever their age. Too often we tend to wait until children reach the age of majority to allow them to play an active role in society. However, in fact, they're already playing this role through their work and through all sorts of other activities.

In this respect, it is fundamental for our association and for some of its partners to have youth and children recognized as a priority for all of the Canadian government's activities, both at home and abroad.

Thank you very much.

The Chairman: Thank you. We will now turn to Mr. Tremblay and Ms. Bernier from the organization called Défense des enfants internationale.

Mr. Jacques Tremblay (representative, Défense des enfants internationale): Good afternoon. Don't be discouraged. I am the last speaker to present my thoughts, and I should warn you that they are still in the developmental stage.

I apologize for being unable to table a brief to go along with my presentation. However, I will be sending it to you in the next few days, and it will be enriched by everything we have heard here this afternoon.

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Défense des enfants internationale is an organization that has been involved in discussions on child labour or exploitation of children in the work world for many years. I was recently rereading de positions taken by Défense des enfants internationale at a convention in 1985. These positions will be presented to you in the next few days.

I could mention, by way of example, the link that must be made between poverty and the exploitation of child labour, the need to be open to solutions geared to the needs of children, who have to do paid work in order to survive, and at the same time go to school in order to develop. All of this has been mentioned many times.

We've often mentioned as well our disappointment about the lack of resources over the last 15 years to support small projects which cost almost nothing, but which produce great results. We had already recommended initiatives at that time.

It is essential that governments, intergovernmental organizations and institutions work together on their efforts involving children.

In 1985, people recognized how important it was to bring forward the issue of child labour to those who were drafting the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child. Consequently, it is extremely important to carry out concrete projects in the field, even though they may sometimes be very modest, and to work at the same time to develop standards and a political super structure for managing children's rights.

We saw what happened in 1985, and it is quite likely that 10 or 15 years later, you will be thinking about the same problems. I hope you will do so skilfully and particularly that you will be listened to.

One idea comes to mind about the different situations in which children work, and lead me to my view of the Convention on the Rights of the Child.

There are two types of exploited children, or two evils that cause the exploitation of child labour. The first has nothing to do with the economic situation or with the poverty suffered by a large percentage of humanity. It is linked, rather, to our perception of children: they are either seen as human beings or not. Some see children as a sub-species or a non-entity. Wherever this phenomenon occurs, whether in a rich country or in a poor country, we must attack the problem at its source. This is not an economic problem, but rather one of perception and respect for human beings. Most of the more extreme situations we find throughout the world in terms of child exploitation are linked to this perception that children are not human beings.

A mention was made of the caste system, and of certain traditional cultures. In this respect, I think that Canada's role should be to bring forward as judiciously as possible the message set out in the Convention on the Rights of the Child. It states that children should not be defined in terms of a single interest: work, school, health or family. One tremendous advantage of the Convention is to present the child as a whole, as a being many kinds of needs, and particularly as a developing person, who is moving from the cradle to adulthood.

The more Canada supports the dissemination, understanding, implementation and integration of the message set out in the Convention on the Rights of the Child in countries in which child abuse occurs, the more its efforts will be justified.

The other way of exploiting children is linked to the economic situation. Clearly, exploitation of child labour and poverty go together.

I was saying that the Convention on the Rights of the Child presents a certain view of children, which is that the child is a developing being. It is this view that our association, Défense des enfants internationale, is trying to put forward. Children are not production entities. They are first and foremost human beings who are developing personally and socially. This is the view that must be given priority.

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Children can work. The convention does not prohibit it, but it does suggest that children should choose to work, and not be forced to do so. The convention also states that parents have the prime responsibility of ensuring the material, social, intellectual and moral survival of the child. Finally, Canada will move in the right direction if it strengthens the role of parents and their ability to play this role. Second, we will achieve our objective by assuming that governments can assist and support parents in the performance of this role.

The convention states that these objectives will be achieved by respecting the conditions and resources of each country. In my view, this is where the problem is becoming increasingly dramatic. When we talk about the national conditions that should be taken into account in our view of the rights of children, we find that conditions throughout the world, and even in Canada, are deteriorating significantly. Debt problems, and strategies to reduce and cut back budgets mean that our national welfare situation is worsening. Transfers to the provinces for social spending are being reduced. There are cuts in all aspects of education and health care.

We, the rich countries of the world, find ourselves in a situation in which our national conditions are worsening and our resources are diminishing substantially. We no longer have any money and we have to make cuts. This naturally leads to cuts to international aid and to domestic spending.

I am convinced the time has come to focus on economic globalization. Mr. Paré mentioned this a little earlier. We often tend to disregard this aspect when we talk about child labour, because we see child labour as a denial of their status as human beings. If we do that, we are not concerned about the economic situation.

But there is another aspect of economic globalization as well. Its chief characteristic is to considerably reduce the government's latitude in defining the economic rules of the game internally, and consequently, as regards its social policy. We never talk about universal social policies anymore. We talk about a social safety net for those whose situations are so dramatic that something must be done.

However, that does not prevent all the consequences suffered by families generally. The fact is that there are more and more people laid off as adults, more and more women who are single parents and without resources, more and more people who are marginalized because they cannot play a positive role in the labour force. All that is very unfortunate, because all those people have children. They are the ones who pay. Increasing numbers of these children in unstable situations lead to the increasing numbers of children working. This is often done by choice, but often it is a choice the child would not make if he or she did not have to .

If you can understand what is going on in Canada, you can imagine what is going on in developing countries facing structural adjustment or debt repayment measures. It's all very well for Canada and other countries to give them a nice little gift from time to time, but the fact remains that these countries are in an economic situation in which they can no lo longer afford to implement economic or social policies. That in fact is one of the impacts of globalization.

Another effect is more specific to children: I am talking about the globalization of a style of consumption. This is a more pernicious aspect of the problem. Children everywhere, even those in the bush in Brazil or in Africa, dream of having a Walkman, because they know they exist. Children everywhere want to drink Coca-Cola and want to wear Nike running shoes. This globalization of consumption adds to the experiences endured by these children who, in many countries of the world, have to work.

They don't have to work just to meet their immediate needs, but also to live up to peer pressure and to fit their image of comfort and success. This is a dimension of the problem that should be of concern to all companies when they develop their market strategies. I'm thinking particularly of tobacco companies, which have developed a whole strategy for children in the Third world market. If children between the ages of 10 and 13 become addicted to nicotine throughout the world, you can imagine the long-term effects this could produce.

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So we have to be very vigilant about these strategies, both with respect to production and consumption, because they completely alter needs. What are the real needs of children? Do they need to consume or to be trained? If we come back to the convention, the early years is a time when the predominant value is the right to training, education and the full development of a child's potential. We should not underestimate the effect of economic globalization.

It is not enough to increase the number of specific initiatives that we might find charming or extraordinary. We must also impose certain rules of economic practice to offset the domination of excessive competitiveness. As we have seen, this leads to unemployment, job loss and maximum profits for a small minority, generally financial institutions, holding companies and large corporations. If the government of Canada does not get involved in this debate, it may allow the situation to deteriorate for who knows how many years more.

I will close by drawing a parallel that you may find somewhat daring with the industrial revolution in the 19th Century. It is true that at a time when governments were not very interventionists, the industrial revolution brought a great deal of well-being, new wealth and simpler production methods. That process could be compared to the process of globalization that is going on today. We could say that globalization has brought a great deal of wealth to humanity, but we should also say that while the industrial revolution brought a great deal of wealth to humanity, there were 60 years of exploitation, problems and deterioration of the working class at the time and that it took 30 years of up-risings and grumblings and organizational work before governments finally decided to set certain rules about the living and working conditions of children. The first was that children could no longer work in mines at night.

In the 19th Century, children suffered the most by this wonderful economic development controlled by the captains of industry. It was a world in which capital controlled everything. Today too, the mobility of capital and profits is eluding everyone, particularly all those who think they have authority and power. They do not know how to recover this unheard-of wealth which is merely making a few people richer. In the meantime, we are dealing with our reduced budgets, the need to cut back, our responsibilities, and so on. Do we have to wait until the situation of children gets worse? There are actually more and more children who could go into the labour force. Consequently, more and more children will be exploited because we have no structural control. Perhaps we should be fatalistic, and I am sometimes. Perhaps, as in the 19th Century, we should let the situation completely fall apart, since our politicians do not seem to know what to do.

If Canada acts unilaterally, we could lose our companies that will go and establish themselves elsewhere. That will not help anyone. Therefore, what we need is an international, globalized strategy. We need to set up some government authority, and we are still thinking about this. We hope you will be able to think about this as well, because we need to attack two problems: on the one hand, the perception we have of children, and on the other, the economic situation, which means that more and more children are forced to work, rather than choosing to work.

I will close by saying that article 32 of the Convention on the Rights of the Child is not respected throughout Canada. In Quebec, for example, there is no rule in this regard. Thank you.

The Chairman: Thank you, Mr. Tremblay. Do you have any questions, Ms. Debien?

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Ms. Debien: I would like to say that Mr. Tremblay's comments touched me particularly. I don't know whether you are familiar with the Lisbon Group, but your comments are very much in keeping with its philosophy. That is a comment, rather than a question. I would go even further: I would say that in our so-called developed societies, the race for physical or intellectual performance and for competitiveness is probably a form of exploitation of children as well. That was the comment I wanted to make.

The Chairman: Thank you, Ms. Debien.

Mr. Paré.

Mr. Paré: I would like to ask a question. Perhaps Ms. Plewes and Mr. Mendes could answer it.

Ms. Plewes: I am sorry, but I have to leave in five minutes.

Mr. Paré: Basically, I'm wondering. I'm happy the last person tackled head-on the whole problem of globalization, free markets and competitiveness, because there's an absolutely extraordinary trap into which the politicians of all countries seem to fall, at least the politicians in developed countries, without giving it much attention. Now, it seems to me those ideas didn't spring up just yesterday.

We no doubt have statistics that could show that, especially in developing countries, economic growth is not necessarily a synonym for economic development. If you take the gross domestic product and divide it by the number of inhabitants, you get a figure, but it does not necessarily take into account the fact that the rich are getting richer and the poor are getting even poorer. Could any kind of data be used to wake up the people in power?

Mr. Roy: If you don't mind, I could take a stab at that question. It's clear that at the present time the economic system is stuck between two positions. There's the position of the planned economic system, or plan, typified in the past by the Russian economy, and you have the free market. The Russian economy having more or less fallen, there has been self-fertilization of the two, which means that if you want to characterize the market economy, you could say that it's give and take, in other words I give you $2 and you give me a shirt. In fact, I'm making a gift to someone to satisfy my own need. It's a voluntary gift, while the other one is mandatory. I give the State a tax which is, for example, a mandatory gift from everyone to satisfy the needs of the others.

But the majority of economic transactions in society have nothing to do with those two economic forms of exchange. When a mother gets up in the morning to take her children to day care or give something to her son, it's a voluntary gift that depends on the other one's need. But that economic exchange is never quantified. Of course, you have the competition system, which is then equivalent of the free market. And now that the Soviet plan has failed, the whole world is at the total mercy of the free market stampede, and that's that.

Of course, and the Lisbon Group was quite right, Madame, I think we'll have to recognize that this is a dead-end.

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That's why I still have questions. Should our government privilege international agreements at the free market level? It is being done and it will always have catastrophic consequences, because we only consider our self-interest.

There are real economic systems and economic schools of thought which maintain that. Serge Christophe Khom has series of books showing that an economic system based on general reciprocity, which would in fact be a sort of economic counterpart to Einstein's famous general relativity theory, and which would be based on the quantification of needs and voluntary exchanges according to the needs of others, could actually solve a great number of the problems that exist.

So I say that we must be careful not to invite international ridicule by giving a semblance of a legal or legislative structure to unbridled trade, to unbridled commercial exchanges, while systematically and progressively undermining attempts at economic exchange, international co-operation and NGOs, which actually work solely using this sort of general reciprocity economy. When you sit down with an African partner to try to build a school, you're not entering into a competition. When you arrive in Africa, you're not asking what's in it for you. You ask them what they need. We NGOs practice general reciprocity. That's why the double standard must be denounced.

[English]

The Chairman: Ms Plewes, you're leaving, so perhaps you could say a farewell.

Ms Plewes: If statistics could change the world, we would already have changed. There is an enormous range of material from UNDP and the United Nations Research Institute for Social Development showing the negative and marginalizing effects of the current processes. This is why we've been arguing we need both to strengthen states - the public sector - and strengthen civil society to bring this private sector, public sector, third sector relationship into balance and into a coherent development strategy.

I think it is very evident here that we aren't going to solve these problems of children and enhance the creativity and the lives of children solely through NGOs, solely through government action, or solely through private sector action. We need a comprehensive way to work. That's why I like the idea put forward by Mr. Axworthy - we hope Mr. Pettigrew will expand on it tomorrow - of choosing two or three places where Canada would develop accords with countries and we would collectively learn how to do this better.

I would like to underline that I think this would be an effective way of sharing the Canadian experience we have in these three sectors. We would be working in reciprocity rather than saying you people are doing it wrong and we're going to show you how to change, and we would be working collectively with NGOs, the private sector and governments in southern countries to do that.

The Chairman: Thank you, Ms Plewes.

Mr. Mendes, I believe you had your hand up.

Prof. Mendes: I think we're moving from an era of independence of national entities to an era of interdependence of national entities around the world.

The critical reason why this has occurred is the factors of production, from capital to labour to inputs, have now become global. Essentially what we're seeing around the world is a global racetrack economy where the economies that are the fastest rising economies are the ones with access to the cheapest inputs together with the highest rates of capital investment from around the world.

At the moment this is in Asia and in the Southeast Asian economies. However, as economist Paul Krugman has noticed, this in effect is a bubble. This is where I think we can factor in some of our strategies on child labour. Krugman, for example, says that the reliance only on cheap inputs, plus investment from around the world cannot last, which is why you are seeing a decrease in growth in some Southeast Asian economies.

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Malaysia, in fact, has proved that these economies have to move from cheap-input economies to economies based on a diversity of industries or high technologies, which necessitates moving away from the type of industries that employ child labour.

That, in essence, is one at which we have to look to see how we can help some of these countries plan their futures in terms of human resources development to move away from economies based on cheap inputs to one that has a diversity of technologies.

I'm afraid the key reason why this phenomenon exists is that we are moving away from a world based on independence to interdependence.

Mr. Godfrey: I want to pick up on what Mr. Mendes said during his presentation. In fact, there was a reference with Ms Plewes to India as well.

It seems to me that it's very difficult for us to speak in the abstract of a great number of countries when the conditions vary enormously. We had witnesses before us last week who talked, for example, about child labour in Burma and Vietnam. I think these would be very difficult models in which to achieve some kind of progress on the file of child labour.

It seems to me that a country like India.... First of all, you probably have the largest single source of child labour in the world. Second, unhappily, it seems to be a growing problem, despite the answer to the question that Minister Axworthy gave as to the effectiveness of international institutions. Maybe they've slowed down the rate of growth. Third, it's a country with which we have relations through the Commonwealth. It's a country that's a democracy. It's a country with which we have lots of relations through NGOs and all the rest of it.

I was perhaps a little disappointed by the end of your paper, Mr. Mendes, in which you talked about some of the things that could be done. That's because what I didn't get was a kind of unified field theory, as it were, between the actions....

Let's take India as our test case. What do we have to do as government-to-government parliamentarians through the NGO community to change social consciousness through the labour movement? How would we prioritize that? Would we start with the hazardous substances, since I gather that's part of an agreement already? Would we work in the area of child prostitution?

It does seem to me that India gives us a big hit if we can find the way through reciprocity rather than by dictating the policy of carrying on. I would gather that - this is the point of entry to the answer - the greatest single issue may be raising social consciousness in India so that there is a political will for everything else to take place.

That's a long question.

Prof. Mendes: I shall attempt a global unified field theory in about two minutes.

You're quite right about India. If in fact, as some suspect, the figures of child labour are in excess of 60 million, the rest of the world combined doesn't amount to that much. India is by far the most major challenge in this field. Given that, one should also bear in mind that India is a land of tremendous paradoxes. Keep in mind that this is also a country that has the highest number of per capita scientists in the world. In fact, they are exporting them around the world. India, as it has been proven through the centuries, has provided tremendous paradoxes and challenges to the rest of the world.

In terms of the unified field theory as to what Canada can do, I think again it parallels the trends within our own country as to what we can do. At the multilateral level, I think we can focus on finding the principles that India and Canada accept in common, like the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child and the agreement to eradicate child labour and hazardous industries.

However, we have to move beyond the principles. As a national unity and constitutional issue, you can develop national principles, but you have to implement them somehow or allow for what's called subsidiarity. That subsidiarity can only be effected through decentralized methods of implementation, such as, for example, through NGOs in India, through NGOs in Canada in partnership with NGOs in India and through national institutions like the Indian human rights commission.

Indeed, you put your finger on it. I think the biggest bang we will get for our very small and decreasingly small buck is attempting to develop partnerships and collaborations that raise social consciousness as to the value of educating children, to implement the constitutional right of free and compulsory elementary education within the values. India completely accepts that these are fundamental rights of children, but there is a huge gap between the desire to achieve these aims and the actual reality of how these aims are achieved. So we should focus in mind that whether we like it or not our buck will be decreasing, and therefore we should be looking at what brings us the biggest bang for the buck. In my view, that is focusing on how we can help our Indian partners raise social consciousness in this area.

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The Chairman: Mr. Martin.

Mr. Martin: Mr. Mendes, I have two quick questions. I think you hit the nail on the head in one particularly important area that is not really being addressed - for politically correct reasons, shall we say. That's the implication of population growth rates on developing countries, the environment of degradation that is occurring in some areas, and the drive towards urbanization and the poverty that can spin off from that, as well as the possibilities of conflict.

Do you have any suggestions on ways in which Canada can provide India and other countries with safe, effective birth control that would be appropriate for the people involved?

Secondly, you recommended that we should try to introduce higher technologies in conjunction with industry in the sweatshops and other areas where child labour occurs. However, it seems to me that if you're interjecting higher technologies, you're going to increase your productivity but you're also going to put children out of work. As we've seen, putting children out of work sometimes lets them drop into employment that's far more dangerous for them, such as child prostitution or worse.

Do you have any suggestions as to how we can balance and compromise so that we are able to provide better conditions for children to work under, along with providing education, health care and such, but not having them fall down into employment in child prostitution and other areas?

Prof. Mendes: In terms of population control, India provides an amazing paradox to the rest of the world. It has developed technologies in this area that outpace the rest of the world. It has recently developed, believe it or not, a vaccine that in and of itself presents ethical problems. So India is outpacing the world in this area, and it is a question, again, of how to translate the desire to stabilize their population. India will be the most populous country in the world in the next century. It will outpace China, even with its 1.2 billion population at the moment, so we have to keep that in mind.

In terms of the environmental degradation that is causing the mass flight to the cities and the unsustainable rural economies, again, given that Canada has diminishing resources in this area, whether we like it or not, what I would suggest is to focus on the tremendous know-how that Canadians from coast to coast have developed; for example, more efficient farming techniques in many parts of this country, how to do more with less land, how to reform land holdings, how to have more effective methods of passing property through inheritance, which is also a big problem in India. I think one of the areas we have under-exported in this country is Canadian know-how in all these areas. It doesn't cost money to the Canadian taxpayer to enter into a dialogue with our overseas partners.

As to the final part of your question, in terms of getting our own business and private sector to work with Indian private sector and scientific and university partners, yes, there will be a dislocation of child labour, but it has to be an integrated approach so that at the same time we should also examine how you can have non-formal education attached to the workplace. As the introduction of higher technologies gets introduced into the workplace in, let's say, the gem-polishing industry or the bangle industry, you begin to develop an integrated approach. Have non-formal education to draw the children into specialized or apprenticeship programs, with the ultimate aim being to bring them into the formal sector.

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Again, however, the costs involved in this are enormous. Canada alone would never be able to assist, even in one state, with the massive cost in transferring from the workplace to the formal education. But we can gain and develop know-how with our Indian partners to see how revenue-raising techniques can be developed; to develop better methods of tax collection, better methods of financing of public services; and to see whether or not Indians themselves can raise these revenues to get the child from the workplace into the non-formal education sector first, and ultimately into the formal education sector. But again, know-how is critical in terms of developing these partnerships.

The Chairman: Thank you, Mr. Mendes.

[Translation]

Any other comments, Mr. Tremblay or Mr. Roy?

Mr. Fleury: I'd like to add a few words, following up on Mr. Mendes, and to come back to one of the points I raised before, which is the slightly artificial opposition between work and education. I think you actually did mention that point but I don't think we can substitute education for work and vice-versa.

We have to provided bridges that will allow progressive integration, which Mr. Mendes called formalizing this economy and its learning bridges. What has to be seen behind working children is both the need for extra income, of course, but also the need for active participation.

Young people entering the labour market refuse to be put on a shelf or marginalized for many years of their life by a working community that's active all around them, active in terms of consumerism but also in terms of production and especially participation. That's civil society.

As long as we don't recognized this need our youth has to participate actively in this civil society, we'll remain in a dead-end where all we do is eliminate one problem just to find ourselves faced with another. We are only displacing the reality from an informal sector or a development sector to a more or less formal sector where, over time, conditions can be quite as threatening.

It's important to provide bridges both through socially acceptable work and formal educational bridges or more or less formal apprenticeship programs. These are bridges that allow the youth to be active participants in our civil society and to be recognized as such so that they will not be excluded, for a more or less lengthy period of their lives, from active participation in society around them.

The Chairman: Thank you, Mr. Fleury.

[English]

Are there any other questions or comments? If not, I'd like to thank the witnesses for their presentations today. They've been very valuable.

I must apologize for the late hour. We were late beginning, but I think we've been rewarded with the valuable testimony we've had.

The researcher reminds me, Mr. Mendes, that there is one question. The minister, when he made his presentation, talked about a study you had done. He made specific reference to it. Is it possible for us to have the study, or is it locked in the bowels of the department?

Prof. Mendes: If the minister says you shall have it, you shall have it.

The Chairman: The minister has so declared, so I presume we have it. We'll talk to the minister about that report, then.

Thank you very much, and I'd like to thank all the other witnesses.

[Translation]

Thank you very much.

The meeting is adjourned.

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