FINA Committee Meeting

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

Meeting No. 163

Tuesday, November 24, 1998

The Standing Committee on Finance met in a televised session at 3:30 p.m. this day, in Room 253-D, Centre Block, the Chair, Maurizio Bevilacqua, presiding.

Members of the Committee present: Carolyn Bennett, Maurizio Bevilacqua, Scott Brison, Nick Discepola, Ken Epp, Sophia Leung, Gary Pillitteri, Karen Redman, Paul Szabo and Tony Valeri.

Acting Members present: Beth Phinney for Gallaway, Jason Kenney for Monte Solberg, Beth Phinney for Tony Valeri, René Canuel for Roger Gallaway, Gilles Perron for Odina Desrochers, Paul Forseth for Dick Harris, Peter Adams, Lynn Myers for Roger Gallaway, Beth Phinney for Tony Valeri.

In attendance: From the Library of Parliament: Richard Domingue, Research Officer and Marion Wrobel, Senior Analyst.

From the Canadian Federation of Independent Business: Garth Whyte, Vice-President, National Affairs; Peter O'Brien, Vice-President of Atlantic Canada. From the Certified General Accountants' Association of Canada: Mark Boudreau, Vice-President, Public and Government Relations; Art Silverman, Chair. From the Canadian Bar Association: D. Blair Nixon, Chair, Sales and Commodity Tax Committee.

Round Table II

From the Canadian Institute of Chartered Accountants: Robert Spindler, Chair, CICA/CBA Joint Taxation Committee; Catherine McMillian, Past Chair, CICA Commodity Taxation Committee; Sal Badali, Member, CICA Communications and Government Affairs Committee. From the Public Policy Forum: David R. Zussman, Ph.D., President; Bob Plamondon, Consultant. From the RESO Innovac: André Vallerand, Chief Executive Officer. From the Canadian Chamber of Commerce: Peter Harris, Vice-President.

Witnesses: From the Department of National Revenue: Bill McCloskey, Assistant Deputy Minister, Canada Customs and Revenue Agency Implementation Team; Sherry Moran, Director, Legislation, Canada Customs and Revenue Agency Implementation Team; Marie Tremblay, Counsel, Legal Services.

In accordance with the Order of Reference of the House of Commons of Tuesday, October 27, 1998, the Committee resumed consideration of Bill C-43 - An Act to establish the Canada Customs and Revenue Agency and to amend and repeal other Acts as a consequence (See Minutes of Proceedings of Wednesday, November 18, 1998, No. 159).

The witnesses on Round Table I made opening statements and answered questions.

At 5:10 p.m., the sitting was suspended.

At 6:05 p.m., the sitting resumed.

The witnesses on Round Table II made opening statements and answered questions.

On motion of Jason Kenney, it was agreed, - That the Minister of Finance be requested to appear before the Committee at the earliest opportunity, to address the Supplementary Estimates for the fiscal year 1998-1999 and the Performance Reviews of the Department ending March 31, 1998.

Jason Kenney moved, - That, in relation to the committees consideration of Bill C-43, the committee seek the authorization from the House to hold hearings across Canada, and that the steering committee be instructed to draft the details.

The question being put on the motion, it was negatived, on the following division:

YEAS

NAYS

The Chair called for Clause-by-Clause consideration of the Bill.

The witnesses answered questions.

Pursuant to Standing Order 75(1) Clause 1 was allowed to stand.

Clauses 2 and 3 carried.

On Clause 4

Beth Phinney moved, - That Clause 4, be amended by replacing lines 14 and 15 on page 2 with the following:

"at such place in Canada as may be designated by the Governor in Council."

The question being put on the amendment, it was agreed to.

Clause 4 as amended carried.

Clauses 5 to 14 carried.

On Clause 15

Beth Phinney moved, That Clause 15, be amended by replacing line 23 on page 5 with the following:

"within two months after the day on which this"

The question being put on the amendment, it was agreed to.

Clause 15 as amended carried.

Clauses 16 to 45 carried on division.

On Clause 46

Beth Phinney moved, - That Clause 46, be amended by replacing, in the French version, lines 34 to 39 on page 13 with the following:

Pouvoir d'indemniser

"46. (1) L'Agence peut indemniser ses administrateurs ou leurs prédécesseurs, ainsi que leurs héritiers et mandataires, de tous les frais et dépens, y compris les sommes versées pour transiger ou pour exécuter un jugement, engagés par eux lors de procédures"

The question being put on the amendment, it was agreed to.

Clause 46 as amended carried

Clauses 47 to 89 carried.

On new Clause 89.1

Beth Phinney moved, - That Clause 89, be amended by adding after line 14 on page 26 the following:

application of the official languages act

Official Languages Act applies

89.1 For greater certainty, the Official Languages Act applies to the Agency and the Agency has the duty, under section 25 of that Act, to ensure that, where services are provided or made available by another person or organization on its behalf, any member of the public in Canada or elsewhere can communicate with and obtain those services from that person or organization in either official language, in any case where those services, if provided by the Agency, would be required under Part IV of that Act to be provided in either official language.

The question being put on the amendment, it was agreed to.

New Clause 89.1 carried.

Clause 90 carried.

On Clause 91

Beth Phinney moved, - That Clause 91, be amended by adding, in the English version, after line 30 on page 27 the following:

Interpretation

(5) In this section, a reference to any provision in the Work Force Adjustment Directive is to be read as a reference to the equivalent provision of a collective agreement, if the collective agreement contains provisions that replace the Directive.

The question being put on the amendment, it as agreed to.

Clause 91 as amended carried.

Clauses 92 to 185 carried on division.

On new Clause 185.1

Beth Phinney moved, - That New Clause 185.1 be amended by adding after line 13 on page 71 the following:

"Conditional Amendment re Bill C-50

185.1 If Bill C-50, introduced in the first session of the thirty-sixth Parliament and entitled A First Act to harmonize federal law with the civil law of the Province of Quebec and to amend certain Acts in order to ensure that each language version takes into account the common law and the civil law, is assented to, then,

(a) on the later of the coming into force of that Act and the coming into force of subsection 30(1) of this Act, paragraph 30(1)(c) of this Act is replaced by the following:

(c) Agency real property and Agency immovables as defined in section 73; and

(b) on the later of the coming into force of that Act and the coming into force of subsection 60(2) of this Act, paragraph 60(2)(a) of this Act is replaced by the following:

(a) payments for the sale, exchange, lease, loan, transfer or other disposition of property, including Agency real property as defined in section 73;

(a.1) payments for the sale, exchange, loan, transfer or other disposition of property, and the leasing of property, including Agency immovables as defined in section 73;

(c) on the later of the coming into force of that Act and the coming into force of sections 73 to 84 of this Act, the heading before section 73 and sections 73 to 84 of this Act are replaced by the following:

real property and immovables

Definitions

73. The definitions in this section apply in this section and in sections 74 to 84.

"administration"

« gestion »

"administration" means the right to use, manage, construct, maintain or repair real property and immovables.

"Agency immovable"

« immeubles de l'Agence »

"Agency immovable" means an immovable under the administration of the Agency.

"Agency real property"

« biens réels de l'Agence »

"Agency real property" means real property under the administration of the Agency.

"immovable"

« immeuble »

"immovable" has the same meaning as in section 2 of the Federal Real Property and Federal Immovables Act.

"licence"

« permis »

"licence" has the same meaning as in section 2 of the Federal Real Property and Federal Immovables Act.

"real property"

« biens réels »

"real property" has the same meaning as in section 2 of the Federal Real Property and Federal Immovables Act.

Administration of real property and immovables

74. (1) The Agency has the administration of

(a) real property acquired by the Agency by purchase, lease, transfer, gift, devise or otherwise; and

(b) immovables acquired by the Agency by purchase, transfer, gift, legacy or otherwise and immovables of which it is the lessee.

Title

(2) Agency real property and Agency immovables are the property of the Crown and title may be held in the name of Her Majesty in right of Canada or in the name of the Agency.

Transfer of administration of real property and immovables

(3) For greater certainty, where the administration of any real property or immovable is transferred to the Agency, that real property or immovable is Agency real property or an Agency immovable.

Acquisition and leasing of real property and immovables

75. (1) The Agency may, in its own name or in the name of Her Majesty in right of Canada,

(a) acquire real property by purchase, lease, gift, devise or otherwise; and

(b) acquire immovables by purchase, gift, legacy or otherwise and lease immovables as lessee.

Disposition and leasing of real property and immovables

(2) The Agency may

(a) dispose of Agency real property by sale, lease, gift or otherwise; and

(b) dispose of Agency immovables by sale, gift or otherwise and lease Agency immovables as lessor.

Transactions with Her Majesty

(3) The Agency may, as if it were not an agent of Her Majesty,

(a) acquire real property from, or dispose of Agency real property to, Her Majesty by deed, lease or otherwise; and

(b) acquire immovables from, and dispose of Agency immovables to, Her Majesty, by act or otherwise, and lease immovables from, or lease Agency immovables to, Her Majesty.

Licences

76. The Agency may give, acquire, relinquish or accept the relinquishment of a licence.

Transfers to provinces

77. (1) The Agency may transfer to Her Majesty in right of a province the administration and control of any Agency real property and Agency immovables.

Transfers from provinces

(2) The Agency may accept a transfer of the administration and control of any real property or immovables held by Her Majesty in right of a province.

Grants

78. (1) Agency real property may be granted and Agency immovables may be conceded

(a) by letters patent under the Great Seal;

(b) by an instrument of grant or an act of concession stating that it has the same force and effect as if it were letters patent;

(c) by a plan if, under the laws of Canada or a province, a plan may operate as an instrument or act granting, conceding, dedicating, transferring or conveying real property or immovables;

(d) by any instrument or act by which, under the laws in force in the province in which they are situated, real property or immovables may be transferred by a natural person; or

(e) by any instrument or act by which, under the laws in force in a jurisdiction outside Canada in which they are situated, real property or immovables may be transferred.

Leases

(2) A leasehold estate in Agency real property within Canada may also be granted and a lease of Agency immovables within Canada may also be conceded by a lease that is not an instrument or act referred to in paragraph (1)(a) or (b), whether or not it is an instrument or act by which real property or immovables in a province may be transferred by a natural person.

Effect of instrument or act

(3) An instrument or act referred to in paragraph (1)(b) has the same force and effect as if the instrument or act were letters patent under the Great Seal.

Signing instruments and acts

79. A licence or an instrument or act granting, conceding or transferring Agency real property or Agency immovables, other than letters patent, must be signed by persons authorized to do so by the Agency.

Grants and concessions to Agency

80. The Agency may grant Agency real property, and may concede Agency immovables, to itself.

Utilities

81. (1) The Agency may provide utilities and other services on or from Agency real property and Agency immovables.

Services

(2) In carrying out its mandate, the Agency may incur expenditures or perform, or have performed, services or work in relation to any real property, immovable, work or other property not belonging to the Agency, with the consent of the owner.

Grants to municipalities

82. The Agency may make grants to a local municipality in an amount not greater than the taxes that might be levied by the municipality in respect of any Agency real property or Agency immovables if the Agency were not an agent of Her Majesty.

Consideration

83. Notwithstanding the Financial Administration Act, the amount of the rent or other consideration charged for the lease or easement of Agency real property, or the lease or servitude over Agency immovables or a licence in respect of Agency real property or Agency immovables may be less than, equal to or more than the costs borne by Her Majesty in right of Canada in relation to the property or immovables.

Federal Real Property and Federal Immovables Act not applicable

84. (1) Subject to subsections (2) and (3), the Federal Real Property and Federal Immovables Act does not apply to the Agency.

Sections that apply to Agency

(2) Sections 8 and 9, subsection 11(2) and sections 12, 13 and 14 of the Federal Real Property and Federal Immovables Act apply to the Agency and any reference in those provisions to

(a) federal real property is to be read as a reference to Agency real property;

(b) federal immovables is to be read as a reference to Agency immovables; and

(c) an instrument or act referred to in paragraph 5(1)(b) of that Act is to be read as a reference to an instrument or act referred to in paragraph 78(1)(b) of this Act.

Paragraph 16(2)(g)

(3) Paragraph 16(2)(g) of the Federal Real Property and Federal Immovables Act applies to the Agency as if it were an agent corporation within the meaning of that Act.

(d) on the later of the coming into force of that Act and the coming into force of subsection 103(2) of this Act, subsection 103(2) of this Act is replaced by the following:

Real property and immovables

(2) The administration of any real property or immovable and the administrative responsibility for any licence in respect of real property and immovables, as those terms are defined in section 73, that were, immediately before the coming into force of this section, under the administration or administrative responsibility of the Minister of National Revenue for the purposes of the Department of National Revenue are transferred to the Agency."

The question being put on the amendment, it was agreed to.

Clause 185.1 as amended carried.

Clauses 186 to 188 carried.

Clause 1 carried

The Title carried.

The Bill, as amended, carried.

ORDERED, - That the Bill, as amended, be reprinted as a working copy for the use of the House of Commons at the Report Stage.

ORDERED, - That the Chairman report Bill C-43 with amendments to the House.

At 8:40 p.m., the Committee adjourned to the call of the Chair.

Jacques Lahaie

Clerk of the Committee

Roxanne Enman

Co-Clerk of the Committee