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    Mr. Speaker, pursuant to Standing Order 36(8)(b), I have the honour to table, in both official languages, the government's response to 22 petitions.

    Mr. Speaker, pursuant to Standing Order 36 and as certified by the clerk of petitions, I have two petitions today.

    The first one is very timely in that the House has been considering the issue of child pornography, particularly on the Internet.

    These petitioners from my riding of Mississauga South want to draw to the attention of the House that the creation, use and circulation of child pornography is condemned by a clear majority of Canadians, that the CRTC and Internet service providers have responsibility for the content that is being transmitted to Canadians, and that anyone who uses the Internet to facilitate any sex offences involving children is committing an offence.

    Therefore, these petitioners call upon Parliament to protect our children by taking all necessary steps to stop the Internet as a medium for the distribution of child victimization and pornography.

    Mr. Speaker, the second petition has to do with an issue that has seized the House for some time. It has to do with Nortel retirees, particularly those who are receiving benefits for long-term disability and who are under duress now.

    These petitioners are calling upon Parliament to amend the Companies' Creditors Arrangement Act and the Bankruptcy and Insolvency Act to protect the rights of Canadian employees, and to ensure that the employees who are laid off by a company while receiving a pension or long-term disability benefits will obtain preferred creditor status over other unsecured creditors during bankruptcy proceedings.

    They are also asking for the Bankruptcy and Insolvency Act to be amended to ensure that employee-related claims are paid from the proceeds of Canadian asset sales before funds are permitted to leave the country.

    This is an important area and I hope the government will respond favourably to these petitioners.

    Mr. Speaker, I present a petition in which the petitioners from Manitoba are calling for the adoption of Canada's first air passengers' bill of rights.

    The petitioners support Bill C-310, which includes compensation for overbooked flights, cancelled flights and unreasonable tarmac delays. The legislation is inspired by a European law. In fact, Air Canada is already operating under the European laws on its flights to Europe, so why should an Air Canada customer receive better treatment in Europe than in Canada?

    The bill would ensure that passengers are kept informed of flight changes, whether they are delays or cancellations. The new rules would be posted in the airports, and airlines must inform passengers of their rights and the process to file for compensation. The bill deals with late and misplaced baggage. It also deals with all-inclusive pricing by airlines in their advertisements.

    Bill C-310 is not meant to punish the airlines. If the airlines follow the rules, they will not have to pay a dime in compensation to passengers.

    The petitioners call on the Government of Canada to support Bill C-310 that would introduce Canada's first air passengers' bill of rights.

    Mr. Speaker, if the answers to Questions Nos. 464 and 465 could be made orders for returns, these returns would be tabled immediately.

    Is that agreed?

    Some hon. members: Agreed.

    Mr. Speaker, I ask that the remaining questions be allowed to stand.

    Is that agreed?

    Some hon. members: Agreed.

    Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order with respect to Bill C-470, standing in the name of the member for Mississauga East—Cooksville.

    Without commenting on the merits of Bill C-470, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (revocation of registration), I submit that the bill would extend the incidence of a tax and therefore should have been preceded by House concurrence in a ways and means motion for the bill.

    The second edition of House of Commons Procedure and Practice states on page 900 that:

    In addition, citation 980 of the sixth edition of Beauchesne's Parliamentary Rules and Forms states:

    I would further note that on page 898 of the 23rd edition of Erskine May, it states:

    By way of precedent, on November 28, 2007, the Speaker ruled in the case of Bill C-418, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (deductibility of remuneration) that:

    The purpose of Bill C-470 is to allow the revocation of the registration of a charitable organization, public foundation or private foundation, if a particular entity is paying an annual compensation that exceeds $250,000 to any of its executives or employees.

    Let me explain why the bill would result in the extension of a tax. For the information of members, subsections 149.1(2) to 149.1(4) of the Income Tax Act provide rules upon which the Minister of National Revenue can deregister a charity. Bill C-470 would amend the Income Tax Act by adding paragraph (c) to subsection 149.1(2) of the act, adding paragraph (f) to subsection 149.1(3) and adding paragraph (e) to subsection 149.1(4). This would add a new condition where the Minister of National Revenue can deregister a charity. Let me explain in detail, if I may, how that may work.

    At present, upon the issuance of a notice of revocation of its registration under any of the current subsections from 149.1(2) to 149.1(4), an entity is facing an additional tax burden. Subsection 188(1.1) of the Income Tax Act, read in conjunction with subsection 188(1), provides that such an entity is liable to a tax calculated in accordance with the formula found in subsection 188(1.1). This additional tax liability is known as the revocation tax.

    Bill C-470 would add the new circumstances described in subsections 149.1(2) to 149.1(4) for deregistration of charities by providing that the Minister of National Revenue can, in addition to the current circumstances described in the Income Tax Act, deregister an entity on the basis that it pays more than $250,000 in compensation to one of its executives or employees.

    Charities that would be deregistered under the new circumstances in Bill C-470 would be liable to pay the revocation tax imposed under subsection 188(1.1).

    In addition, paragraph 149(1)(f) of the Income Tax Act provides that registered charities are exempt from taxation. Upon deregistration of an entity in the circumstances proposed by Bill C-470, that entity loses its tax exempt status as a registered charity and, assuming it remains a charity, it will not be able to benefit from the other exemptions from tax provided for in subsection 149.1(1).

    In other words, Bill C-470 would result in an extension of the incidence of a tax by including entities that are not already paying the revocation tax or, potentially, a tax on their income. This means that the bill should have been preceded by the concurrence of the House in a ways and means motion for the bill.

    As a result, I submit that the order for second reading of the bill should be discharged and the bill be withdrawn from the order paper.

    Mr. Speaker, this is the first time in my 16 years here that I have come across this issue. I do not know the details of the argument as well as the hon. member has presented them.

    However, one of the protections that members do have is the diligence and review done by the subcommittee of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs. For all bills that members submit, the members are asked to designate the bill or motion they would like to have on the order of precedence, once the bill is put on the order paper, to decide its disposition and admissibility, whether or not it is constitutional or would require a royal recommendation where additional spending were being recommended.

    In this case, we have something in a parallel sense, but it does require a ways and means motion.

    I will accept the argument of the parliamentary secretary. However, what the parliamentary secretary is saying is that as a consequence of this situation, this bill should basically be terminated and be taken off the order paper.

    This is probably not the only option available to the House. I would argue that if the subcommittee of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs was not aware and, in fact, has not advised the member, the member would never have picked this bill, simply because there is no process by which a member can actually introduce a ways and means motion to be able to deal with the bill. If the argument is correct, the bill therefore had no chance whatsoever of ever being correct.

    I am sure that it would be the intent of the member to seek an amendment to the bill that she wants to put forward for consideration to committee, or would substitute another.

    On behalf of the member, I would simply argue that this is not any fault of the member, but rather a circumstance of which she and most of the House were unaware, and that with the guidance of the committee, they may have been able to remediate this.

    Thus I am asking for the House to consider whether the member could have the opportunity to seek whatever options might be available, so that she could have an item on the order paper, which is her right given that her bill was put there by the lottery conducted by the House.

    Mr. Speaker, I will be very brief about the simple logic being applied by the parliamentary secretary to this issue.

    It seems to me that if a ways and means motion were required, the legislative matter might also require a royal recommendation. I do not think that is what is being argued here.

    Second, I do not think that the measure being proposed here would create a new tax or a new tax measure. All it would do is to take steps that would make a person or an entity liable to an existing tax measure. If I were to use the same logic the government is using in this matter now, but to legislate in the House a promotion or to create an office whereby a person took that office and thus entered a higher tax bracket by virtue of earning more money, then a ways and means motion would be needed because the legislation, if passed, would ultimately result in that appointed person being subject to additional taxation on his or her income.

    My point is that the legislation being proposed here merely sets up a circumstance where the entity would be subject to existing tax measures, not new tax measures.

    I appreciate the interventions by the Parliamentary Secretary to the government House leader and the members for Mississauga South and Scarborough—Rouge River. I am sure they will be taken under advisement and a ruling will come back to the House in due course.

     moved:

    He said: Mr. Speaker, I want to thank my colleague from St. John's East for seconding this motion.

    On April 5, 2006, the following question was posed in this House to the then defence minister. It was posed by my colleague, Dawn Black, who was our defence critic at the time, and I will read it into the record. She said:

    The reply by the then defence minister was:

    The supplementary question by my colleague, Ms. Black, was:

    The then defence minister answered:

    I begin with that because this is the beginning of what I think should be a study by an independent inquiry.

    When we first took our place in this House in 2006, there was a transition in the military operations in Afghanistan. We were moving from Kabul to Kandahar, but we were also charged with different responsibilities. We had to take issue with the fact that we were handing over detainees and that there was much more activity in the field. That has been laid out, but we also had to take responsibilities that we all have as decision makers with regard to international law.

    Obviously, we know what happened after what I just read into the record. There was an admission by the government that the transfer agreement was not as substantive as what it is claiming. The fact is that our agreement was not as robust as the Dutch agreement and we were not aware of what was happening to detainees once they were handed over.

    In fact, at committee, we have heard from generals, both serving and past. We have heard from diplomats, serving and past. We have heard from those who were in the field, particularly Mr. Colvin. While there might be disputes with some of their testimony, there is one thing that is seamless and where there is a consensus, and that is that we knew of the allegations and reports of international groups who monitor human rights, such as the Red Cross and the Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission, that there was abuse in Afghan jails. This is something everyone can agree on.

    What we have had in front of committee is the statement of fact by Mr. Colvin that he was trying to bring forward to the chain of command, both military and through DFAIT, that there were problems and that we needed to rectify those problems. For over 15 months, his calls went unheeded.

     In fact, there was still, by the government of the day, no formal acknowledge that there was a problem with the agreement. It was not until there was actual reporting from the field by a reporter, Graeme Smith. It was admitted at committee, after questions posed to the generals, that in fact when they had heard of the abuse as was noted in Mr. Smith's reports, there was a halting of that.

    It is interesting to note that at the time when Mr. Colvin was writing his reports of concerns regarding detainee transfers, there were also, for the record, responses as of June 2006 from officials that there were no concerns.

    Part of that is what is needed to be put on the record because our motion today calls for an independent lens, a judicial inquiry, to have documents put in front of someone who can sort out the contradictions, the contradictions that Mr. Colvin was stating in more than one report to over 70 people, that he had concerns about the handover of detainees from Canadians to Afghan prisons, to Afghan officials, and the generals' testimony that once they were handed over they were not the military's responsibility.

    I will read from the Globe and Mail report written by Mr. Smith and referenced earlier. It was the cause for our halting of the transfer of detainees according to testimony at committee. It stated:

    We have in front of us a dilemma. On the one hand we have assurances from officials that are saying that they were not aware that there were concerns within the Afghan jails in particular to those detainees who were transferred by Canadians but we had concerns generally.

    On the other hand we have Mr. Colvin, who was very clear in his testimony that he had tried to get the attention of his superiors. He was unequivocal in his statement at committee when he said that he had tried to get the attention of Canadian officials. He had underlined the insufficiency within our agreement. He had cited the Dutch agreement, as was mentioned by my colleague, Ms. Black, as being a preferred option. He had said that when we were handing over detainees, we had no way to monitor. We had no records.

    The government's line to date has been the following. We cannot prove with absolute clarity that there was any torture of Afghan detainees that were handed over by the Canadian military to Afghan jails. Mr. Colvin's evidence is saying very clearly that there was no way to monitor and in fact the government was not following up on allegations, and it was not investigating until a new transfer agreement was signed off.

    These are huge gaping holes. What we have in essence is a black hole for more than 15 months where we were handing over detainees. There was no follow-up in terms of monitoring. There was no follow-up in terms of allegations. Thus, there was no way to provide evidence. Therefore, the government's claims have absolutely no credibility. If we are not able to investigate, if we are not able to monitor, then we will not be able to find.

    Mr. Colvin is not in my opinion a whistleblower. The government has conveniently tagged him with that moniker.

    The reason Mr. Colvin appeared at committee and was able to give evidence was because he was asked to appear before the committee. Prior to that, he was to provide testimony to the Military Police Complaints Commission. We know the story there.

    He was not able to give evidence. The commission was not functioning. I will not go through all of that. It is safe to say that the government did not want people to come forward. It did not want the commission to do its job. I do not think anyone would dispute that, save for the government of course.

    We asked that Mr. Colvin come before committee so we could actually get to the bottom of what happened. Instead of listening to Mr. Colvin's testimony and taking that evidence in, the government's approach, and we have seen this time and time again, was to shoot the messenger, to attack his credibility.

    Mr. Colvin came before the committee because he was asked. In the case of Mr. Mulroney, he was not invited to the committee until after Mr. Colvin attended and Mr. Mulroney asked to come before the committee.

     It is interesting to note that prior to Mr. Colvin's testimony, the government was not interested in having this study done by the Afghanistan committee. It was very clear about that. It fought against Mr. Colvin appearing at committee and decided that it would support a study of sections 37 and 38 of the National Security Act but voted against Mr. Colvin coming before the committee.

    Yet, after the motion passed in committee, it did not list Mr. Mulroney as a witness. All parties are able and encouraged to invite witnesses to the committee. Not once did the government say it wanted to hear from Mr. Mulroney until Mr. Colvin provided his testimony. That is interesting because it shows the government was not interested in the declaration from officials. What it was more interested in, after Mr. Colvin's testimony, was covering the trail.

    I say that, sadly, because what the government should be acknowledging is what every single independent body that has looked at human rights in Afghan jails has observed, that there was and is abuse in them. That is obvious.

    For some reason, the government has tried to deny that. I do not understand it. It is a well-known fact. In fact, one of the agencies Canada funds, the Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission, and its representatives, whom I previously brought to committee before the detainee issue was before committee, had written very clearly that there was widespread abuse.

    It is interesting that when Canada's monitors and trainers for the Afghan army and the Afghan police and the deputy minister were asked if they had read the Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission's most recent report, they said they had heard about it but never read it. The reason given was that it had not been translated.

    I do not know about anyone else, but if I am involved in training police and corrections officers in Afghanistan, and I have given the authority and mandate to the Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission to be an overseer and monitor what is going on in jails, I would want to read that. I would want my officials training the Afghan police and corrections officials to actually have read what is going on in the jails. They were not doing that. I brought that issue up months ago.

    That report is now widespread. It has now been translated into English. It was curious that the government could not find anyone who read Dari in the monolith that is the bureaucracy, but the officials were finally availed of it. It was actually one of my staff who helped translate it.

    The question in front of us is to take from the government and even the opposition the issue of the transfer of Afghan detainees and posit it before an independent inquiry.

    Even with the government's hottest rhetoric, and we saw it all last week, how can the government deny what every single solitary editorial in this country and most people who look at this through an unbiased lens have said we need? We need an independent inquiry. What are the Conservatives afraid of?

    The Minister of National Defence contradicted himself in the House. He said that he never read reports from Mr. Colvin and weeks later he said that he got an attachment on it. Last week the Minister of National Defence said that some of those reports came to him but they went through the generals and the bureaucrats first.

    There is a lot of game playing going on, even with the one person who the government put forward as credible to attack Mr. Colvin. Members of the government did not say this when they quoted him in the House, but it is interesting to note what Paul Chapin, the third party validator for the government, did before he retired. The Minister of National Defence used his words in the House to defend the Conservatives' lack of action on the detainee issue and their denial. Before he retired, Mr. Chapin was actually the architect of the first detainee transfer. Now he works for a lobby group.

     The one third party validator the government has is not even independent from all of this. He is entirely involved in the detainee transfer agreement. That is it. That is the government's credibility, one person, Mr. Paul Chapin. He is a fine gentleman, but let us be honest. He was the author of or was involved in writing the first detainee transfer agreement, which everyone agrees was insufficient.

    Where is the credibility for the government? There is none. It is relying on hot rhetoric. I do not have to tell members that when the government starts calling people names and accusing people of being allied with the Taliban, it shows the merit of the government's arguments. If the government is not able to rely on fact, and if it is not able to make the argument, then there is the old parlour trick of attacking the messenger. We have seen this. Not only did the government attack us, and we on this side are used to the government attacking us, but it is so 2006, what we have seen this past couple of weeks. It is what we heard when we first debated this, that somehow we are aligned with the Taliban and we do not support the troops.

    When the government starts to go after public servants who are not whistleblowers but who were actually called before the committee to provide evidence, then it has hit a new low. The limbo pole is almost on the ground and the government is trying to get under it.

    If we are to get to the bottom of this issue and if, as the government claims, it wants to get to the truth, why is it the government has withheld documents? Why is it that certain journalists in this country have access to documents that a parliamentary committee does not have access to? Why is that certain people in this country are able to access information that a parliamentary committee cannot access?

    If this were any other jurisdiction, for example the United States, and a congressional committee had asked for documents before witnesses testified, it would be given them in a second. However, not with the Conservative government. The government decides to attack the messenger. Never mind the facts. As I said, the facts that we have had in front of the committee demand further investigation. I say this as a member of the committee. I want this issue to be the subject of an independent inquiry. For the government to deny that makes its motive very clear.

     The government does not want Canadians to hear the whole story. It wants to bury truth. It is going to take us down a path of poisoning an issue, politicizing an issue, instead of bringing light to an issue and instead of asking that someone who is unbiased, not the opposition, not the government, not any other third party, but someone unbiased look at this to get to the truth.

    I call on the government not only to support this motion, but to announce its intent to call an inquiry. If the Conservatives deny a public inquiry, they will rue that day and history will not be favourable. They will wish they had gone down the path of transparency and called a public inquiry.

    Mr. Speaker, I listened intently to the words of the member opposite. I certainly agree with what he said, that we should not politicize this, that we should look for direction from individuals who are not directly tied to the issue. It is very instructive in taking his credibility to heart when he said that nobody else has validated this; it is only this other individual who formerly worked in the public service, Paul Chapin. Mr. Chapin said, “Colvin's charge is not that there was general torture going on. His charge is that we, Canada, knowingly turned over people to be tortured. And that's irresponsible because he has no hard evidence for that”. That is a former colleague from the public service. He said there were not others. There were in fact three high-ranking generals, Fraser, Hillier and Gauthier, all of whom were on the ground during the time in question, all of whom were clearly in a position of command with respect to the issue of detainees. They saw no torture. They heard of no torture. They reported no torture to the government.

    Similarly, we had Mr. Mulroney, another public servant who was specifically tasked with the mission in Afghanistan. He gave his assessment of Mr. Colvin's testimony. He found it lacking. He found there was no evidence of torture that he had seen or that he had been directed to.

    We have individuals like Christie Blatchford, an embedded journalist, not someone who would be beholden to the government. Here is what she had to say:

    That is from the Globe and Mail. We have people like Matthew Fisher, another embedded journalist. There is a growing list of individuals who are casting some degree of suspicion over Mr. Colvin's word.

    Mr. Speaker, here we go again, is all I can say. The minister has gone at it again. He cannot resist it. He seems to think that if he attacks the messenger, he will get his message out.

     The facts are the message here. The facts are that there have been facts and evidence brought forward to a committee of the House. What I am saying to the government is what the motion says, bring forward an independent lens so we can stop this jingoistic ballyhoo we hear all the time from the government when we bring forward facts.

    Why is it that certain journalists have access to documents? How is it they obtained documents that we do not have access to? Is the government investigating that? Is the tiger team taking documents from some people and handing them over to certain journalists? Is the government saying that the tiger team will bless one group and give it documents because that group gives out the government's message? Is that what is going on here? That is what Canadians want to know.

    At the end of the day what will clear this up is a public inquiry. Why are the Conservatives scared of a public inquiry? What are they afraid of?

    Mr. Speaker, I had the privilege of chairing the Standing Committee on National Defence. The parliamentary secretary and I served together on the committee. He will attest that the committee functioned as a family. We put the interests of the mission first and then our men and women in uniform. I know he feels the same way as I do and so does the minister.

    We asked tough questions. All the honourable gentlemen the minister mentioned came before the committee and a committee of the whole in this chamber. We asked tough questions. That is our role as parliamentarians.

    I have had several calls from my constituents asking, “Are you guys really against the military?” Why does the member think that every time we ask these tough questions we are getting rebuttals? I say this respectfully, but tactics have changed. We are supposedly against our men and women in uniform and against the military which is really not the case. I am sending that message across.

    Mr. Speaker, as the son of a World War II vet and the grandson of two World War I vets, one of whom was gassed overseas and received a medal of bravery for his valour in World War I, I do not need to take any lessons about patriotism and supporting the troops. It is in my DNA. I am glad the member brought up that question. If anyone wants to talk to me about the military we can take a walk outside and I will read some testimonies from my family.

    This is about the core of who we are. This is our moral reputation in the world. Why I am asking for a public inquiry, and I am sure there will be support from other parties, is to ensure that moral reputation stands and that the people who need to be held to account, the government members, are held to account. That is how democracy works. I have no idea why the Conservatives want to deny an independent inquiry on an important issue.

    Mr. Speaker, obviously this is an important issue, and it is an emotional issue. I want to quickly point out two things and then ask a question.

    Mr. Colvin's memos in 2006 did not relate to abuse. They related to conditions in the jails. His reports basically said that the jails were not that bad. His reports in 2007 came to light after Graeme Smith did his article-

    Where did you read them?

    Mr. Speaker, it is in the public domain, from the CBC as a matter of fact. The reports only surfaced after Graeme Smith published his reports. I would ask the question, where is Mr. Colvin getting his information?

    With respect to the comments about whom the government wanted to hear from and so on, as we do not repeat what happens in camera, I would just say that the member was not being factual when he made those statements.

    There is one source who spent a total of an afternoon outside the wire, visiting one prison, talking to four prisoners. He did not know where they came from. One of them showed some signs of abuse. That is the “he said” side. On the “everybody else said” side, we have three high-ranking, highly respected generals, a senior diplomat who was Colvin's superior, and numerous other people saying the opposite.

    Is the member saying that that one source is more credible than all those other sources?

    Mr. Speaker, it is pretty obvious what the government is doing here. There are actually many other sources than Mr. Colvin. When the parliamentary secretary says “according to Mr. Colvin's reports”, it would be nice if we could read them, because we are not allowed to read them. Certain journalists have access to the unredacted reports. In fact, retired members of the military have access to these documents. We do not. It is evident what is going on in terms of how the government is playing things.

    The point is that the information that is available to everyone, and even the generals agree, stated that there was abuse going on in Afghan jails. There was not a separate place for detainees to go where there was no abuse. In fact, Mr. Mulroney, under questioning, said he could not assure anyone that there was not abuse, and he came in to fix it.

    Finally, the point that needs to be made to my friend on the other side is that if he feels there are all these undisputed facts going around, why would he not support an inquiry?

    Mr. Speaker, certainly from what we are hearing, it is a happy day when the Conservative government is seeking out its new-found friend, the CBC. We can all praise that as an epiphany.

    I want to ask the hon. member, who brings forward a very important point, are we not just discussing what is the proper venue? Certainly the Minister of National Defence as a former Crown prosecutor would know the importance of full disclosure. It does not appear that we have had, except for the CBC, full disclosure.

    As the prerogatives of the Parliament of Canada are outside section 38 of the Criminal Code, which the Attorney General and the Minister of National Defence may be relying on, as Mr. Colvin says, does the member not think that eventually we will have full disclosure of full documentation? That may preclude the necessity for his royal commission inquiry.

    To be very brief, Mr. Speaker, no. Because the government has the tiger team. It consistently withholds information, and that is known. We need an independent lens.

    We are going to have an inquiry on missing salmon, which is an important subject. I wish the government would get on with that sooner.

    We have spent $18 billion on the mission in Afghanistan. We have lost 133 men and women in uniform and a diplomat. Does the government not think that is as important as missing salmon? I will leave it to the government to answer that question.

    Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to take part in the debate. We have just heard the hon. member for Ottawa Centre, who proposes that the Government of Canada call a public inquiry into the transfer of Taliban prisoners in Canadian custody to Afghan authorities from 2001 to 2009. This is the period in which Canada has been involved in the mission in Afghanistan.

    Let us be perfectly clear. As we have heard from the introductory remarks to this debate by the member for Ottawa Centre, this is fuelled by partisan politics. This is fuelled by unfounded allegations. I heard the hon. member say not 30 seconds ago that the Afghan mission would cost $18 billion. He is pulling that figure out of the thin blue air. I can assure the House this is not the cost of the Afghan mission. I will now go through some of his other remarks and point out the truth.

    This exercise would be unnecessary and a waste of taxpayer money. It would be duplication of effort, as we currently have a number of investigations going on into the exact same subject matter. In fact, I can point to three areas of investigation that are either under way or completed.

    First of all, the Canadian Forces convened a board of inquiry to investigate the treatment of persons detained by the Canadian Forces in April 2006. The board concluded that Canadian Forces members, without exception, treated prisoners professionally and humanely, and that all actions taken by Canadian Forces members in dealing with prisoners complied with directives in place at the time of capture and were consistently above reproach.

    During the board's investigation, the Canadian Forces made significant changes to improve their reporting and registration system, as well as the time frame for and level of the directives provided to Canadian Forces members in the field.

    Second, the Military Police Complaints Commission is investigating detainee transfers. The Government of Canada is co-operating fully with the commission, where it is operating within its mandate as set out by the National Defence Act and defined by the federal court.

    The Military Police Complaints Commission itself has confirmed that the Department of National Defence has provided the commission with access to hundreds of documents and produced dozens of witnesses with respect to the MPCC matters relating to detainees. The work of the commission is currently suspended by the decision of the chair, who has chosen to appeal the federal court's decision affirming its mandate.

    The third area of investigation into detainee transfers is the ongoing study by the special parliamentary committee on the Canadian mission in Afghanistan. Here, again, the government is complying with the special committee's request for documents in a timely fashion.

    However, there is another reason why an additional investigation is uncalled for.

    Our implementation of the enhanced detainee arrangement has already had much of the intended effect. Upon taking office and discovering shortcomings in the arrangement and deficiencies signed by the previous government, we acted to improve it. This is the real issue.

    As a government and upon taking office inheriting the mission, inheriting this topical issue, we acted. We acted decisively, we acted with resources and we acted responsibly. We started to invest in improving a difficult situation. I think even members of the opposition, if they could step back from their partisanship, would recognize that this was a particularly challenging issue, and I will come back to that. Therefore, we put a new arrangement in place.

     I want to put on the record what the member for Vancouver South, who is one of the chief prosecutors in this matter, had to say about the arrangement that his government put in place. He was speaking to this matter on April 10, 2006, to a motion that was before the House. This is what he had to say then about his government's transfer arrangement:

    We changed the arrangement to ensure that Canadian officials could have access to Afghan detention facilities for the purposes of monitoring those conditions and the well-being of Taliban prisoners turned over by the Canadian Forces.

    Here again is an important distinction. We are talking not about general conditions within prisons. We are not talking about general treatment of all prisoners turned over to Afghan authorities. The primary responsibility in this entire debate is for prisoners taken captive by Canadian Forces and then turned over. We can be concerned, and should be concerned, about the general conditions, and we seek to improve them. However, our primary responsibility is for detainees captured and turned over by Canadian Forces.

    With respect to detaining Taliban prisoners, and the word “detainees” will be heard often in this discussion, we are talking about individuals turned over who were captured in the heat of battle, captured while planting IEDs or making IEDs used to kill or maim Afghan citizens, allied forces or Canadian soldiers. We are not talking about individuals detained at the side of the road for speeding or picked up for shoplifting. We are not talking about nice people.

    Canada has a responsibility with respect to allegations of abuse, and we take them seriously. We always do and we always will. When we have had specific allegations of abuse, we have acted quickly and responsibly. We now have a new arrangement that enhances our ability to do just that.

    Our mission in Afghanistan to bring about stability and security, to allow us and enable us to do more in the area of reconstruction and development, to work on human rights and governance, to allow us to assist the Afghan people to build capacity so they can do many of these things for themselves is a noble cause to which all members I am sure would agree.

    The Canadian Forces are critical to that exercise. The most important part of this mission is to bring about stability and security first, enabling us to do all of these other important initiatives.

    The Canadian Forces treat Taliban prisoners humanely, in spite of the atrocities in which they may have committed or been involved. Our forces are trained to do so. They are professional in that regard. This is something that we do from the moment they are captured to the moment they are turned over to Afghan authorities, whether they are captured on the battlefield or in the process of committing some heinous crime.

    I want to talk for a moment about the Canadian detainee handling process and how it has evolved since became involved in the Kandahar mission in 2005 under the previous government. I want to explain what it means to be a detainee, when an individual is captured while involved in armed conflict.

    It is important to understand, first, that Afghan detainees are not prisoners of war. However, they are treated as if they were prisoners of war. We do not treat them differently, keeping in mind that they do not fit that definition. They do not wear uniforms. They do not adhere to international convention. They do not play by any rules of engagement. They engage in the most awful behaviour imaginable. They involve themselves in efforts to kill and maim their own citizens, allied forces that are there to protect Afghan citizens, and they use the most despicable tactics imaginable.

    However, we take steps, as we are required to do and adhere to, to ensure that detainees, Taliban prisoners, are treated humanely. Our policy is to treat detainees, Taliban prisoners, regardless of their legal status under the laws of armed conflict and other international laws, humanely, in a manner consistent with the standard of prisoner of war treatment and certainly consistent with the values and principles that Canadians hold dear.

    Who exactly are detainees? This seems to have been muddled somewhat, and I would suggest deliberately in the discussion in the past few weeks. Let me be clear. Detainees are persons who have been captured, who are being held against their will as they continue to wreak havoc in their own country. They came into custody and care of Canadian Forces under a wide variety of circumstances. I have mentioned already that they do not fight conventionally. They do not wear uniforms. They hide in civilian clothing. They often use tactics to deliberately disguise themselves or put themselves in the midst of innocent citizens. Generally, they have committed a hostile act or shown hostile intent toward Canadian Forces, allied forces or their own civilians.

    Let us not forget, we are dealing with individuals who, as I said, are using the most heinous tactics. They are throwing acid in the faces of school children in some instances, children who are simply trying to get an education. This is the culture we are trying to change in Afghanistan, to give young people a future, hope, a chance.

    Many of the Taliban prisoners have directly or indirectly threatened the lives of Canadians. Many, I hasten to add, have the blood of Canadian soldiers on their hands. These are not nice individuals. As soon as a person is detained, information is collected regarding the threat that individual poses. We question, collect and preserve evidence implicating or linking the person to a crime. We take gunshot residue. We check the individual for materials related to explosives or we have video surveillance that has caught the person in the act of either making or planting bombs.

    Usually this information is then provided to Afghan authorities upon transfer so they can continue to detain the individual in accordance with Afghan criminal law. Let us not forget, we are there to help them build their capacity, their justice system, their prisons, their human rights.

    Before I continue to speak to the process of Taliban capture and transfer, I want to explain why we transfer.

     As was the case with the previous government, it is not the current government's policy in Afghanistan to transfer to third parties. That was the case when the mission began under the previous government. That process changed. To do so would not respect Afghan sovereignty and would potentially complicate our relationship with allies and undermine our ability to help Afghans build capacity and do things for themselves. Nor will Canada build or maintain permanent detention facilities in Afghanistan. Not only would this be costly, but it would also conflict with Afghan sovereignty. What would Canada do with detainees when the mission concluded? We do not bring detainees back to Canada, as some have suggested.

    However, and this might be what is most important, none of these action plans would help Afghanistan restore its own judicial system. It is important that appropriate action be taken regarding the detainees, according to the Afghan judicial system. The authorities of that country need support to rebuild a fragile country, so that they can fulfill their detention responsibilities and, perhaps, bring individuals who try to destabilize the country to justice.

    ISAF does not have a detention facility. The treatment and the transfer of detainees are national responsibilities. In general, our allies in ISAF have adopted a similar or identical approach to Canada's, which involves transferring detainees to the Afghan government for further legal action. This approach is not without its problems, but nothing is simple in a situation as complex as that in Afghanistan.

    Canada has launched substantial capacity-building programs to ensure we are doing all we can to support the Afghan government and its own ownership in providing security and justice to its own people. This is the principal point. We are there to build their capacity, to invest in means, in training, in monitoring and, of course, in efforts to mentor Afghans to do these things for themselves.

    These programs have contributed significant resources to improving detention facilities and correction practices;, $132 million overall in that judicial capacity-building, in that prison and penal system and judicial system building.

    Our military and our officials are providing training for the Afghan army, police, corrections and other security personnel on human rights. The government has helped to provide much needed equipment and training and much needed investment in infrastructure. Canada is a substantial contributor to the human rights support unit in the Afghanistan ministry of justice.

    Our government has made significant contributions to the Afghan Independent Human Rights Commission to support its mandate to monitor, protect and promote human rights and to report violations to Afghan authorities. Canada has deployed personnel from Correctional Service Canada to assist, train and mentor Afghan prison personnel.

    We do this for obvious reasons. As a government, we place a huge priority on human rights, just as the Canadian people. A huge priority on human rights and basic fairness is implicit in the approach that Canadians take. It is instinctive in all of us in this country that we support human rights and that we support a justice system that is fair, inclusive and listens to all perspectives.

    As a lawyer and a former crown prosecutor, this is something that I personally believe in and that I have always personally committed myself to. It is something that I have worked in. It is a core belief that I believe I share with many in the House and certainly in the country.

    The Canadian military and officials are working hard and working hand in hand with Afghans in their effort to ensure a fair and humane system is built in their country, a system that will continue to oversee fair treatment of Afghan prisoners and, whether they are captured by Afghan security forces, allies or Canadians, that they will receive fair treatment.

    I come back to the point that our primary responsibility is for the detainees transferred by the Canadian Forces, Taliban prisoners for whom we have responsibility.

    I want to speak about a system that is in place right now and then work back to the point that we have arrived at. I should add that Canada's efforts have been referred to as the golden standard among allies. The Canadian Forces routinely take Taliban prisoners in the course of their operations because they are active, engaged and outside the wire. The number varies largely dependent upon the insurgent activity; that is, the more they try to kill or attack civilians or our troops, the more contact that we have and the more detainees we capture.

    Immediately after being captured, we ensure that the Taliban prisoner is fit to be moved. Our first concern is to provide necessary medical treatment. We also commence collecting information or evidence, forensic material or other physical evidence to substantiate the threat that the individual was posing, and then we turn that evidence over with that individual to the Afghans.

    The Taliban prisoner is moved to the Kandahar airfield where our main operating base is located. At the KAF the Taliban prisoner is given further medical attention if needed and is questioned based upon why that individual was detained in the first instance and to properly assess whether they pose a continued threat.

    The Taliban prisoner who is not deemed to be a further threat is released from Canadian custody, while those who our task force commander validates as a threat to Canadian Forces or allies or Afghan citizens is then transferred to Afghan authorities. We transfer Afghan prisoners as expeditiously as possible while ensuring due diligence in processing them. The ISAF guideline is to transfer them within 96 hours of capture. While our intent is to transfer within that timeframe, there are occasions where we may be compelled to keep a detainee for longer, such as the need to provide medical treatment or other logistic or operational reasons.

    To better support the Afghan government in its justice system, we strive to provide a summary of evidence related to the threat of detainees and whether they can corroborate information to help Afghan authorities support a possible prosecution. They are also questioned with a purpose to gleaning from that interview whether we can prevent further attacks, whether we can interrupt further Taliban activities that are aimed at violence, aimed at threats toward Afghan citizens, communities or the allies.

    Individuals are then transferred to Afghanistan's national directorate of security where we usually hand them over to the ministry of justice to await trial. Some are convicted and some are released. Capacity remains a big problem in the justice system there as it is in many departments of the Afghanistan government.

    However, in keeping with the improved transfer arrangement and our international obligations, officials notify the ICRC and the Afghan Independent Human Rights Council upon taking a detainee and we now have a monitoring regime in place to help ensure that Canadian transferred detainees are treated appropriately.

    Our obligation is to be satisfied that Afghanistan is willing and able to treat detainees humanely. We do a follow-up, we monitor and we ensure compliance. We have Canadians who go into the prisons to perform that task. Further, the Canadian task force commander must be satisfied that there is no substantial grounds for believing there exists a real risk that a detainee would be in danger of being subjected to torture or other forms of mistreatment at the hands of Afghan authorities.

    Again, that is a critical point. We are talking about the abuse of Afghans on Afghans. There has never been any proof of wrongdoing by the Canadian Forces in this regard. As I mentioned, we do this through our formal arrangement and monitoring regime but also through the training, mentoring and capacity building that Canada is involved in. We can be proud of those improvements. We continue to seek improvements. That is the principle of the issue. We are there to help Afghans build that capacity and we have made great strides in that regard.

    Mr. Speaker, the minister started off by saying that the inquiry requested under this motion was unnecessary and that, in his view, it was partisan driven.

    The Special Committee on Afghanistan reported to the House and a motion was made that there was a breach of members' privileges with regard to not having access to documentation, as well as other things, which, using the minister's own words, would constitute a fair and inclusive process. This did not happen at committee.

    The minister also seemed to pit Mr. Colvin against three generals saying that there was not one allegation of abuse but that is not the case.

     The minister says that the primary focus should be on detainees who are transferred to the Afghan authorities. However, when he said that there have been a number of investigations going on in this regard, he referred to the April 2006 report of the Canadian Forces with regard to how members of the Canadian Forces treated detainees.

    That was totally irrelevant, totally improper and totally discredits the minister's arguments. Would he care to withdraw that example and explain why he would mislead the House in that fashion?

    Mr. Speaker, the feigned outrage and fake indignation of the hon. member again belies the House with respect to the seriousness of this issue. I am simply pointing out that the subject matter of detainees has been investigated. In fact, it has been looked at by a number of independent arm's length organizations within the Canadian Forces. This subject matter that is now before the parliamentary committee is getting a full hearing.

    To suggest somehow that this subject matter is not complex, not controversial or not difficult is naive in the extreme. We inherited a very difficult situation. We are in a high tempo military operation in one of the most complex countries in the world. Culturally, it is a country with a history of violence, a country that has endured many invasions and a country that has been in turmoil for centuries.

    We are there trying to help that country build capacity. The subject of handing over detainees is but one aspect of what we are attempting to accomplish in Afghanistan. I would suggest that we have now pulled much of the discussion off in one direction rather than concentrating on the big picture, which is what Canadians would really expect from the Parliament of Canada.

    To suggest somehow that we are trying to withhold information or that we are not being forthright is again completely fallacious. We have undertaken extreme efforts to provide information and witnesses and to co-operate while simultaneously and, most important, improving practical means on the ground to help this mission succeed, to help Afghanistan stabilize and to help Afghans do more to help themselves.

    Mr. Speaker, I listened carefully to the minister talk about the situation in Afghanistan. I have to agree with him on one point. In the House of Commons there are partisan views on one side or the other and none of us can help being politicians.

     He kept mentioning that he is a lawyer. I too am a lawyer and have had extensive practice in the area of inquiries and other legal matters, but would he not agree with the one statement that at least a public inquiry would have objectivity? If there are facts to be weighed, they would be weighed objectively by a trier of fact with long experience and not tainted by what he has to admit in his own case has to be a personal bias and the government's bias in terms of protecting its role.

    A public inquiry is objective and independent, and that is what the Canadian public needs. Would he not agree with that?

    Mr. Speaker, what I would agree with is that he and I are both barristers, have both spent time in a court of law.

    I hope he would agree that on any standard of proof individuals basing their opinion on reports read, things they were told in some cases second and third hand or information gleaned from, in this case, a detainee or Taliban prisoner who has a vested interest in lying, that this information would not only not be a standard in a court of law but would not even result in a charge being laid on reasonable and probable grounds. I think he would agree with that.

    With respect to the process that we have undertaken, we have heard from witnesses. In fact, the vast majority of witnesses, who are not politicians, are not partisan and have no bias, are public servants, military personnel who are there to try to see the mission succeed, were specifically tasked at the time in question to see the mission succeed, have given their testimony. It is a much different and, I suggest, more accurate picture with respect to the issue of the detainees than one individual who has been contradicted numerous times by those same witnesses.

    Mr. Speaker, relating to the comments the minister just made, I appreciate that he is a former prosecutor from Nova Scotia. I am a former prosecutor from Manitoba and I had occasion to listen to Mr. Colvin's testimony.

    What struck me about the testimony was that there was no first-hand knowledge of who committed abuse on any of the few prisoners he interviewed. He had no knowledge of the key issue that is essentially the knowledge that Canadian soldiers had about the likelihood of abuse, much less torture, on prisoners who were turned over to Afghan authorities.

    Here is a man, Mr. Colvin, who spent about half a day out of his entire tour outside of the wire and had these few interviews. As a former prosecutor, I would have real concerns about even initiating a process on that basis. We are not dealing with someone recounting first-hand knowledge about the key issue here.

    Would the minister indicate what his concern would be if someone actually commenced a legal proceeding on this basis?

    Mr. Speaker, as I just stated, it would not have met a legal standard, even at a basic level of police laying a charge.

    Let us revisit his question with respect to first-hand information. Here is a quote from General Hillier, who, as we know, was the chief of defence staff during the time in question. This is what he said, “We didn't base our actions upon people making statements that all detainees were being tortured. How ludicrous a statement is that from any one single individual who really has no knowledge to be able to say something like that”. He went on to say, “There was no reason based on what was in those reports for anybody to bring it to my attention. After having read that I am absolutely confident that was indeed the case”.

    Here is another quote from General Gauthier, who was the commander in Afghanistan during the time in question. He said, “Again, I can very safely say there is nothing in any of these 2006 reports that caused any of the subject matter experts on my staff, nor, by extension, me, to be alerted me to either the fact of torture or a very high risk of torture, nothing”.

    Here is a quote from what Mr. Mulroney had to say. He said, “I can say we have no evidence that any Canadian-transferred detainee was mistreated”.

    These are from individuals on the ground specifically tasked and responsible for the mission. We based our decisions and actions on these individuals. This is how the government acted on the trusted people who were absolutely in charge of the mission. Based upon that, we acted.

    Mr. Speaker, just to clarify a point, the minister began his comments by challenging the numbers I had for the cost of the war. They were provided by the Parliamentary Budget Officer. The evidence is all over the place. The government could not provide that. That is why the PBO had to do it.

    Regarding the question, we have evidence from Graeme Smith of torture. It was well-known and he is the cause, according to the government, for stopping the transfer of detainees. He said, “I saw the marks of the torture on their flesh”, referring to a detainee, “They told me how they had been beaten, choked, frozen, electrocuted, all kinds of these horrible, horrible tortures”.

    The whole point is that we need to sort this out and the only way to do it is through an inquiry. The minister is denying a process. Why is he denying this process of an inquiry? Are we supposed to just trust him? He has already contradicted himself today three times.

    Mr. Speaker, what is so completely unbelievable about the statement of the hon. member is that he is asking us to accept the evidence of a reporter based on what a Taliban prisoner told him.

    The second thing I would point out, as I have tried to do throughout my remarks, is that these are observations about individuals whom we do not know were Canadian-transferred prisoners. We do not know if these were individuals for whom we were responsible.

    That is where the members continue to deliberately try to mislead the House, deliberately mislead Canadians, about our responsibilities. There are specific concerns about prisons and individuals in those prisons and then there are concerns about detainees that Canadian Forces have transferred. That is the crux of the matter.

    The deliberate attempts to mix up and confuse Canadians--

    Order. The hon. Minister of National Defence may wish to withdraw the statement “deliberately mislead the House”. I believe I heard him say the words “deliberately mislead the House” and those are unparliamentary terms, so I would invite him to withdraw that part.

    Mr. Speaker, I withdraw the words “deliberately mislead the House”.

    On a point of order, the hon. member for Ottawa Centre.

    Mr. Speaker, I was about to get up but you did your job. Can we not have a genuine withdrawal here?

    I heard the minister withdraw the remarks and that is normally sufficient for when a member uses unparliamentary terms, so we will move on.

    Resuming debate, the hon. member for Vancouver South.

    Mr. Speaker, I will be splitting my time with the member for Toronto Centre.

    I think the issue is whether or not the evidence on either side of this issue is conclusive. According to the Minister of National Defence, he has cast some doubt on the evidence produced by Mr. Colvin. Others have too. I believe inquiries are held, and trials are held in courts of law, to determine conclusively as to who is right and who is wrong on a particular issue.

     This is not an issue of local concern. This is about the reputation of a country. This is about the values of our country. This is about a Canada that has been known for noble deeds internationally. This is about a Canada that is now becoming known for not wanting to look at torture, not wanting to know whether or not the government conducted itself in a way that may have violated international law.

    Let me make two points before I begin with the body of my remarks. First, in any of what I say or my colleagues say in this House, we are not questioning the conduct of our soldiers on the ground. We are questioning the conduct of the government. It wilfully ignored the warnings for over 17 months. There is a huge body of compelling evidence it had those warnings, not just from Mr. Colvin but from respected international organizations. I want to put that on the table, so that we know it is about the government's conduct, it is about the politicians' conduct, and it is not about the conduct of our military on the ground.

    Second, I believe there is a sentiment that exists on the government side of the House in the way it makes remarks about Taliban prisoners, that if one happens to a Taliban prisoner and is then sent to a risk of torture in an Afghan jail, then it may be somehow okay, that we should not really be looking at our own conduct as to what we are doing. We do not hang our scumbags and our murderers. If someone is shooting at us in the battlefield, that person is killed. That is legitimate. But once Canada arrests that person, we have an obligation under international law to behave with the best of standards that we have helped craft over the decades in this world. That is what Canada is known for.

    Therefore, whether one is a Taliban prisoner or an ordinary Afghan prisoner, we have an obligation to treat them as we would treat prisoners of war. I believe that is a very important principle.

    Let me just begin by saying that for the government, it is not about a search for truth, it has been a search for an alibi, essentially, for any manipulation of the facts that will get it off the hook for a mess of its own making. It has shown that it will go to any lengths, stoop to any tactic, smear any reputation or throw anyone under the bus in order to cobble one together.

    Indeed, at its absolute lowest, we have seen the Prime Minister and the minister drape themselves in the mantle of protectors of the soldiers, whose very safety they may have themselves endangered with their callous disregard for the truth.

    How has the government responded to this serious issue? Just as I have described, the way it responds to pretty much any issue. Canadians recognize this charade. They know the government. It denies, it stonewalls, and it obfuscates. It smears an experienced public servant. It leaks selective information to chosen journalists. It questions the patriotism of its critics. This is absolutely unacceptable.

    There is such compelling evidence about the issues that we are talking about that in fact it would be a simple thing for the government to say, “We need an inquiry to resolve this issue. We need an inquiry to clear the air on this issue. We need an inquiry to remove this stain on Canada's reputation, this question mark on Canada's reputation, this question mark on Canada's moral leadership in the world”.

    It is a very simple conclusion to come to, but the government will not come to it because it remains wilfully blind to the allegations of torture, to the warnings it received from not just Mr. Colvin but from the international organizations. It did nothing for 17 months.

    I will put some facts on the table. These are excerpts. The Minister of National Defence, using the testimony of some others, has said there was no evidence in Colvin's documents, no mention of the word “torture” involved in Colvin's documents. I will read some of the memos from Afghanistan.

    Memo 278, page 3, says that a particular detainee was “beaten with electrical cables while blindfolded”.

    Memo 279, page 3, says:

    Memo 284, page 4, reads:

    Memo 284, page 4, reads, “He said he had been punched in the mouth for no apparent reason”. He was hit twice on the buttocks. “

    Memo 287, page 1, a detainee said that he had been whipped with cables, shocked with electricity and/or otherwise 'hurt' while in NDS custody...“.

    Memo 287, page 5, reads:

    Memo 287, page 5, another detainee, “...detainees had their fingers cut and burned with a lighter...he was hit on his feet with a cable or big wire and forced to stand for two days...”.

    That is the evidence from the redacted, blacked out, blanked out documents that the government has released pursuant to ATIPs that are available on the Internet. The government is absolutely so shameful that it would provide documents to journalists of choice. Everyone else has documents that the government wants to have except that it believes the members of Parliament like myself and others are a bit of a security risk. Members of Parliament cannot see those documents in their original form without the documents being redacted.

    The ultimate issue is that the government has known from Mr. Colvin and from others what has happened in this situation. I will quote some of the international organizations. In September 2005, Human Rights Watch said, “security forces arbitrarily detained civilians and committed cruel, inhumane, and degrading acts”.

    March 2006, the UN reports on the situation in Afghanistan, “Complaints of serious human rights violations committed by representatives of national security institutions, including arbitrary arrest, illegal detention and torture are numerous”.

    March 2006. U.S. state department stated:

    

    

    Then we have the Afghan Human Rights Commission and also Amnesty International.

     I agree with the minister that there are several sides to this, that there is a dispute as to the facts, but no one on the other side of the House can deny that this is a dispute that is worth resolving, because once it is resolved it will restore Canada's reputation in the world. It would be made whole again. Right now there is a stain, a question mark on Canada's reputation and there is a question mark on the conduct, on the acts and on the omissions of the current government. To resolve all of that for the Canadian people and for the sake of our country we need to have a public inquiry.

    Mr. Speaker, I want to point out a couple of inaccuracies in the hon. member's remarks.

    First, as a general comment, members will note that there was no acceptance of responsibility whatsoever by the member acknowledging that his government was in office for five years with respect to the mission. In fact, when we took office, we had to improve upon the now universally accepted fact that there was a failure, there was a shortcoming, there were deficiencies in the transfer arrangement even though the hon. member in 2006 stood and said that it was fine, that it was all going well.

    What I would like to ask him, though, specifically, is whether he thinks it was responsible and whether he thinks it was in fact acceptable that his government began this mission by sending the Canadian Forces there with forest green uniforms, inadequate protection, jeeps that were light armoured, the equivalent of a Volkswagen Rabbit, whether in fact he felt that the Canadian Forces were properly prepared for the mission that awaited them in Kandahar province.

    He also went on to talk about how we did nothing for 17 months. Did he think we could flick a switch upon coming to office in 2006 and improve the justice system there? Was it a matter of painting the walls at the Sarposa prison? Was it a matter of just automatically changing the culture within moments of taking office, where his government had been there for five years and were unsuccessful in doing so?

    We undertook significant efforts to go about improving the monitoring, to having Canadians able to go into the prisons, to do the important things that actually build capacity within the Afghan system, in addition to improving the failed, inadequate transfer arrangement left by his government, even though--

    The hon. member for Vancouver South.

    Mr. Speaker, the fact is that between 2006 and 2007 there were over 130 detainees transferred and the government had no way of monitoring or tracking. There was absolute wilful blindness and a deliberate ignoring of the facts.

    The issue is that there were no Afghan detainees transferred to Afghan jails prior to the current government taking power. It needs to actually stand and take responsibility for the period for which it is responsible. It is not about we did this and they did that. It is about the conduct of the government from March 2006 to November 2007 as to what it ignored. It ignored the warnings of Mr. Colvin. Mr. Colvin was told to shut up. It ignored the warnings from international organizations.

    Where does the government stand? Does it condone torture? Did it allow the detainees to be transferred v at risk of torture? That is the ultimate issue. Let us not change the channel here. We will not allow that to happen.

    Mr. Speaker, many people in my riding have contacted me, and I am sure many Canadians are saying the same thing, to say that this is either government negligence or government incompetence or a combination of both.

    I wonder if the hon. member would like to comment on that?

    Mr. Speaker, it is government incompetence. It is deliberate ignorance and deliberate wilful blindness.

    The fact is that this sentiment has been expressed on the other side many times. We heard it this morning from the words of the Minister of National Defence. He referred to them as Taliban prisoners. The sentiment is that an Afghan life, when in prison, pursuant to this mission, somehow has less value. That comes right through the way the Conservatives attack anyone who ever questions their conduct.

     Canada is my country of choice. I chose it. I was in Britain for three and a half years. I came here because I think it is a wonderful place. It provided high moral leadership in the world. Under the leadership of the current government, there is now a stain on the name of Canada. There is now a question mark on the name of Canada. We want that question mark removed. We want the government to do the right thing by Canada and call a public inquiry.

    Mr. Speaker, I found it absolutely appalling when the hon. member said that there was a stain on Canada. There is absolutely no stain on Canada.

    I find it repugnant, as the general did in committee the other day when he said that he was labelled a war criminal and, by extension, our troops. It is absolutely repugnant for the opposition to say such a thing about our men and women in--

    The hon. member for Vancouver South.

    Mr. Speaker, that was the member's interpretation of whatever may have happened.

    Could the government stand up and say, with absolute honesty, that no laws, international or domestic, in Afghanistan have ever been violated?

    Mr. Speaker, as I understand the terms of the motion that has been proposed by my friend from Ottawa Centre, it refers to the years 2001 to 2009. It is not confined to the period after the Conservatives took office.

    On behalf of our party, I want to make it clear that we support the motion. We understand that the implications of the motion are that the conduct of the previous government will be equally subject to scrutiny as the conduct of the current government. It is important for people to understand that. When I say this is not simply a partisan issue, I know there will be chuckles on the other side of the House. However, the fact is that we in this party are supporting a motion that refers to a public inquiry that would look at the conduct of governments with respect to the question of the transfer of detainees.

    The minister and others have risen over and over again to say that the agreement that was negotiated prior to 2006 and signed by General Hillier during the election campaign of 2005-06 on behalf of the Government of Canada, was a flawed agreement. If we listened to the comments that were made by Mr. Colvin, we would certainly come to that conclusion.

    As a result of that agreement, we discovered, and over time it was found out, that the Red Cross could not report instances of abuse to Canadian authorities. It could only raise them with Afghan authorities. The Red Cross repeated again over the weekend its very strong view that it retains its credibility and its deep neutrality as an organization because it does not engage in political conversations. It has insisted on that. We also found that there was no ability on the part of Canadian authorities to investigate any issues that have taken place.

    My simple point would be that the government cannot really have it both ways. The government cannot say, absolutely convinced, 100% certified and guaranteed, that nothing happened untoward with respect to any detainee who was transferred to Afghan authorities, and then say that the agreement was deeply inadequate and that it spent a year and a half in trying to fix it and make it better, and then reached the conclusion that a whole series of steps needed to be taken to ensure that “problems” were dealt with.

    Questions arise. What were the problems? What was it that made the Conservative government decide that there needed to be a change in the agreement? What was it that made the government finally led them to realize that it had to make substantial investments with respect to reviewing, inspecting and investigating the whole structure? What was it that made the government do that?

    Mr. Ed Fast: Liberal bungling. That was the Liberal flawed agreement.

    Hon. Bob Rae: Mr. Speaker, the answer my friend is shouting across the way is “a flawed agreement”. There is no question that it was a flawed agreement. It was an imperfect agreement arrived at by people who were doing their best in the circumstances and who did not fully realize its inadequacies.

    I can say to the hon. member, who continues to shake his head because I can hear him doing so, that what he is saying is that it was the government's fault.

    I will make it clear. We know how these policies get developed. They get developed by people on the ground and by lawyers who review material which ultimately gets approved or not by cabinet. That is how it works.

    Mr. Ed Fast: A Liberal cabinet.

    Hon. Bob Rae: A Liberal cabinet, yes, and it is the decision of that cabinet that will be reviewed by the inquiry. If it were a wrong decision, that is what it would be.

    I do not think the Conservative members are hearing what I am telling them. The conduct of the Liberal government is every bit as much the subject of the inquiry as the conduct of the Conservative government.

    That is the reality of this war. The reality of the war is that it was a war that was entered into by a Liberal government on behalf of the people of Canada because of the nature of the attack on 9/11. Further steps were taken by this Parliament, in which we agreed that we would continue and maintain our support for the troops.

    Let there be no question, we are supportive of our troops. We are supportive of the efforts that have been made. We are supportive of the determination shown. There is absolutely no allegation, none whatsoever, that any Canadian officer or Canadian soldier was ever involved in the mistreatment of Afghan detainees. That is not the question.

    The question before us is, did we take full note of the information, not the evidence but the information, and I stress this word to the minister, the prosecutor for Manitoba who sits across from me, that was reported to the government by a range of sources, not just Mr. Colvin? The emphasis on it all being about Mr. Colvin versus the three generals, and it all being about Mr. Colvin versus Mr. Mulroney, I say with great respect is not the issue. The issue is what information did the Government of Canada have? What did it do with that information and how did it process that information, and why did it take so long to go from hearing the information with respect to the conditions in Afghan prisons and the treatment of prisoners and the decisions that were ultimately made with respect to how those would be reviewed?

    I would like to mention two things.

    First, we support this motion and we recognize that the Liberal government's work will also be subject to scrutiny in the inquiry proposed by the member for Ottawa Centre. This will not be a partisan review. This review will delve into the Liberal government's handling of the war and that of the Conservative government. We accept that responsibility and are saying so clearly.

    Second, there is a fundamental contradiction in the government's position. It says that all kinds of problems made it necessary to change the agreement between Afghanistan and Canada. Yet it refuses to clarify exactly what problems made the change necessary.

    That is the contradiction, and that is the issue that we hope will become the focus of the proposed inquiry.

    The last point I want to make is this: Why hold a public inquiry? As some members will know, if they have ever paid any attention to some of the things I have said over the years, I am not a huge fan of holding public inquiries every time something goes wrong. I have argued against them in different instances, but it seems to me in this particular case, it is very hard to figure out what the alternative is. Some people say it should be a parliamentary committee. We are dogged by problems in the parliamentary committee. We cannot get access to information. We cannot get access to the same documents. Documents are leaked to journalists. The journalists then report on the documents. It is really quite an unusual situation. A government gives a document to a journalist and the journalist says whatever he or she is going to say about whatever he or she is told, and then the government says that this journalist has the information. Where else would they get the information if they do not get it from a source within the government? Where else would those documents come from. Where else would the unredacted documents come from if they do not come from the government? Where else would they come from?

    I am not suggesting that the parliamentary secretary gave the documents to the journalist. I am just saying, where else would they come from? Who else has access to those documents? It is a fascinating question as to how this takes place.

    We are then faced with the situation: What other vehicle do we have to get to this central question? Although the members opposite might not like to see it this way, I do think there is a significant question for Canadian foreign and defence policy and our public policy, that is, having faced this difficult situation, are we or are we not prepared to get to the bottom of it?

    In every effort that was made, the Military Police Complaints Commission, for example, was told by DND lawyers, “No, you cannot look at this; no, you cannot look at that”.

    There does not seem to be any really effective alternative other than to hold a public inquiry to get to the bottom of this question.

    Mr. Speaker, I want to thank my colleague from Toronto Centre for his candour. He laid out his comments that this is not about going after the government; it is about having an independent lens, an inquiry, on what happened going back to 2001. I am glad he made that point because it is worth underlining.

    In other words, we are not looking just at the present Minister of National Defence and the previous Minister of National Defence in the Conservative government. We are looking at the file. We are looking at what needs to be established regarding what happened and, as the member underlined, what should be happening.

    Are we absolutely certain that everything is currently right? The only way we are going to find that out is if we look at all of the facts.

    If we are not able to get a public inquiry going now, does the member believe that we will be able to get enough information from the government for the committee to be able to do what the public inquiry should be doing? In other words, is there any other option than a public inquiry in light of the fact that we have a government that is not willing to dispense all of the documents? Would it not be better to have this independence going back to 2001, as the member said?

    Mr. Speaker, if we look for example at what the British government has done on a number of occasions with respect to the conduct of the war in Iraq, if we look at what the American government has done with respect to the conduct of the war in Iraq and with respect to the treatment of prisoners and the issues that have been raised, there is always some kind of process.

    I think when we look at the frustrations and the obstacles and difficulties that we have faced with respect to a purely parliamentary inquiry, it is very difficult. Will facts come out? Yes, facts will come out, things will emerge and other stuff will come up and question period will be used. However, these are not perfect vehicles for making decisions with respect to how things were done and how they can be improved.

    This is not even about blame. This is about how do we improve public policy. How do we ensure that we will all be able to do a better job, because there will be other Afghanistans? There will be other difficult conflicts and issues.

    This is the way we have to go about making better policy, making better decisions and allowing our decision-makers to improve how they do things. It is not a criminal investigation. It is not a criminal inquiry. It is a public inquiry into how do we improve public policy.

    Mr. Speaker, it is very nice to hear the opposition talking about niceties and that this should be a public inquiry, and that it is not about criminal things, this thing and other things.

    However, let us look at what actually happened. It is very simple. It started as a war in a country that was completely broken. We started under the Liberal regime, which set up a system that when enemy soldiers were captured, they would be taken there. All of these things were evolutionary.

    After we came out with a new agreement in 2007, clearly the people who were on the ground, not the people sitting here in armchairs in this nice country, but the people who were on the ground, said time after time that whatever intelligence they had, they worked on it immediately. As soon as they knew something, everything was done. The committee heard about it and everyone heard about it.

    What I do not understand from the members over there is that after one individual gave his assessment, they are basing their entire fight on that one individual.

    Why do they not believe the generals, the people who were on the ground?

    Mr. Speaker, I do not know whether the generals on the ground visited prisons or not.

    The simple fact is that we have different sources of information with respect to the general conditions in prisons. I believe absolutely the testimony of the three generals who testified before us, in terms of what their view of the situation was, what their view of the information they were receiving was. There is no doubting anyone's testimony.

    I completely believe Mr. Mulroney's testimony when he said that he believes there was no evidence with respect to the treatment of Canadian prisoners. The problem is that we were not at that time in a position to get evidence with respect to the treatment of Canadian prisoners. There was no independent investigation with respect to the allegations of what took place.

    The members opposite have criticized Mr. Colvin for his investigatory techniques. All he was trying to do was to get information and pass that information on to the government where it would be assessed for decision-making by government. That is all he could do—

    Resuming debate, the hon. member for Saint-Jean.

    Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to speak today on the Bloc Québécois' behalf about the proposed public inquiry now before us.

    We have to tell it like it is. We are dealing with a cover-up operation the likes of which has never been seen in Canadian history. Moreover, it is being carried out by what is probably Canada's least transparent government ever.

    Given the current context, it is understandable that we should be dealing with a number of issues. The government is hiding things from us and preventing various parliamentary committees and commissions from getting to the bottom of things. I think it is important to establish a chronology of events so that those listening can understand the issue.

    I could start with the attack on the twin towers in 2001, but I will not. Nevertheless, it did lead to Canadian armed forces intervention in Afghanistan. As in every theatre of operations, an important and urgent issue arose: what to do with detainees.

    I will jump instead to 2005, 2006 and 2007, when the opposition was raising questions in the House, even when the Liberals were in power. A lot of questions were asked in the House about the fate of detainees and how they were treated. There were also questions about whether detainees were treated according to the Geneva convention. Every time, we were told that there was no problem, that the Geneva convention was complied with, that detainees were not tortured, that the people who were turned over to the Afghan authorities were monitored in some way, and that everything was fine. That was the message we got.

    Even at that point, I could not understand why the government in place was not asking for information more officially and openly in order to reassure people. Everyone understood the importance of this issue and the democratic values that this Parliament and all western parliaments stand for. That is very important. We cannot condemn certain regimes or certain torture practices if we use them ourselves.

    There were a lot of questions, and I do not know why, every time the Minister of National Defence or the Minister of Foreign Affairs faced questions in the House, he did not tell his office that he had been asked questions again and that he wanted to know what was going on. But that is not how the government reacted. Instead, it hid the truth.

    I am talking about the previous government as well as the current one. We were told there were no problems. To my way of thinking, even back then, the general public, especially in Quebec, felt that there was a problem. The people of Quebec had a very hard time accepting the operation in Afghanistan.

    Moreover, I would remind this House that the Bloc Québécois opposed the last two requests to extend the mission in Afghanistan, because of a whole series of problems, including that major problem, of course.

    The values of the Parliament of Canada and the legislative assemblies of Quebec and the other provinces are very important. The work done by their members and, in turn, the work done by soldiers in the theatre of operations must be guided by democratic values. Everyone agrees that politicians—the people who make the decisions—have the first and last word about military interventions abroad.

    We have a responsibility as individuals. It is a shame that people who want to get to the bottom of this are being accused of not supporting the troops. We say this all the time and we will say it again today: we have absolutely nothing against the troops, who are simply obeying orders. The government tells them what their mission is, when they will leave and when they will come back.

    We are not criticizing the troops. We are criticizing the government for trying to cover up its inaction and secrets, and trying to muzzle the opposition. It is accusing us of being like the Taliban and not supporting the troops. That is false.

    We have said it many times here and it bears repeating because, just the day before yesterday, the Prime Minister boarded a Canadian frigate and said that he supported the troops and that we did not. That is not true. Even soldiers can be tried under the Geneva convention if it is found that they transferred detainees when there was a high risk of torture. These are fundamental values that we want to defend.

    We also want to try to end this war. We say war, but really it is an insurgency. There is a real climate of secrecy. The Afghan population knows it and is starting to be vocal about the fact that the troops there are occupation forces and not liberation forces. If we prove ourselves no better than the Soviets or no better than any other group that tortures people, that has an impact. The counter-insurgency has to be based on fundamental values. If the Afghan public finds that things are not being done properly, and there is talk of that over there, then we will have a hard time resolving this conflict. The Afghans will see that their family and friends are being held like prisoners and being tortured. According to Mr. Colvin, it was farmers and people who were in the wrong place at the wrong time. How can we then turn around and say that the values we want to defend are so fine? The Afghans will say they are not so fine because they have an aunt, an uncle or a nephew who was tortured.

    This also affects Canada's international policy. How can the Prime Minister staunchly defend human rights when goes to China? The Chinese president will probably reply that he should start by looking at his own record, because to his knowledge, things are not going so well. And he would be right. This weakens Canada's position on the international scene.

    So it is important to say that we are worried about it. We in the opposition have been worrying about it since 2005, 2006 and 2007. We have asked many questions. The government tried to calm us down, saying that there was nothing there, when in fact we know very well that, yes, torture did occur. It is probably still going on. Perhaps now, with the second agreement signed with the Afghan government, there is more control over it. However, with the 2005 agreement, there was not enough control or supervision in Afghan prisons, which means that torture did occur. Regardless of what any generals say or what Mr. Mulroney says, regardless of what government officials are going to say on Wednesday afternoon, torture does occur in Afghan prisons and we are not the only ones saying so.

    Amnesty International, the Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission and the Red Cross say so. Everyone says so. The Afghan commission is reporting torture in 98% of cases. So the government cannot tell us that it is not happening. At this time, only the government, its public servants and other people paid by the government are practically the only people saying that prisoners are not being tortured. Everyone else—the opposition, European diplomats, the Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission, Amnesty International and the Red Cross—all agree that torture is taking place. Therefore, this is a very real problem.

    Some people have tried to solve the problem and that where it gets interesting because we see that the government's cover-up continues. The Military Police Complaints Commission wanted to carry out a systematic study. It looked at the various court decisions because groups such as Amnesty International had gone before the Federal Court and the Supreme Court. It said it would investigate. The government began by telling the commission's chair, Mr. Tinsley, that his term was coming to an end and that it would not be renewed. That was not good; they wanted to disrupt proceedings. People are beginning to say that the chair of a body such as the Military Police Complaints Commission should finish his inquiry before being replaced. Otherwise, it would be too easy to say to Mr. Tinsley, on the day his term expired, that his job was finished. A new member would be appointed and he would practically have to start all over because he had not heard the first statements of evidence. He has to reacquaint himself with the legal aspects and reread what the witnesses said, and so forth.

    That was the first sign of obstructionism by the government. The fact that some witnesses have received legal notice from this government—specifically from the Minister of Justice— threatening them with sanctions if they testify is the second sign of obstructionism.

    Not only is the minister threatening them with sanctions, but he is also refusing to table the documents because they represent a threat to national security, according to the information provided in the legal notice. We will speak of national security a little later because that is the excuse behind which the government is hiding. These ministers of the Crown are using national security as a pretext and I will speak of that later. There are a number of facts that have raised doubts. Not only did we have doubts when we questioned the government in 2006 and 2007 but our doubts have been confirmed by the government's conduct with respect to the Military Police Complaints Commission. In fact, the government has paralyzed the commission.

    After calling on the government many times to release documents and allow people to testify, the chair was forced to suspend the work of the commission. But the government is now saying that the chair himself suspended the work. When witnesses can no longer testify and documents are not available, what can the chair do? The chair must suspend the work. It was the government that suspended the commission's work, not the commission itself. The government's secretive nature and lack of transparency is becoming more obvious.

    I will continue. This is what happened. My colleagues and I believed that, in the interest of defending the values I spoke about at the beginning of my speech, we would have to take over. We told ourselves that the Conservatives could try to cripple a commission, even if it operates at arm's length from the government, as they often say, but it would be more difficult for them to do that to a House of Commons committee. But that is what is going on now.

    When the government has the chair of the Military Police Complaints Commission in a stranglehold and is preventing him from doing his work, he has no choice but to suspend the work of the commission. He can complain publicly once or twice, but that stops being effective after a certain point. For two or three weeks, members of Parliament have been pressing the government every day. We want to know the truth. The Special Committee on the Canadian Mission in Afghanistan is doing its work, within the limits that have been imposed on it. But the government is starting to take away our opportunities to discover the truth. It keeps preventing committee members from getting to the truth.

    This is the same behaviour the government demonstrated with the commission. But now it is more difficult, since the government must answer questions every day. And every Wednesday afternoon, journalists attend the meetings of the Special Committee on the Canadian Mission in Afghanistan. Reports are published in the newspapers. Thus, the government is under some pressure. Yet that does not prevent it from trying to cripple us.

    This all started when I moved a motion. My colleague from Ottawa Centre also moved a motion. In it, we said that we wanted to get to the bottom of what happened with Afghan detainees. In the motion I myself moved, I proposed reviewing sections 37 and 38 of the Canada Evidence Act, the two sections that deal with national security.

    The first heated exchange began when our first witness, General Watkin, the government's Judge Advocate General, appeared. He has full jurisdiction on the military justice side of things. When the general showed up, everything got off to a bad start. That is what came out in the media too.

    In response to the committee's initial questions, the general said that he could not answer. That was exactly what we did not want to hear. We wanted to hold an inquiry so that people would answer our questions and help us get to the bottom of things. Behaviour mirrored that exhibited during the Military Police Complaints Commission hearings. Witnesses were told how far they could go, and for anything beyond that, they were to come up with reasons not to respond. The general said that because of client privilege, he could not provide the information because his client had asked him not to.

    He said that he could not break the bond of trust with his client. That is when the arm-wrestling match between the general and me began. We asked Mr. Walsh, the law clerk of the House, to tell us how far we could go during parliamentary committee meetings. Could we question any witness at all? Were witnesses immune? Were we entitled to access to documents on request?

    The general responded that he would abide by rulings of the Federal Court or the Supreme Court of Canada and that he did not want to go any farther. The law clerk of the House confirmed that, during a session of a parliamentary committee, we have the right to interpret the law as we wish, and witnesses are required to answer questions.

    I resolved the situation by suggesting that the general consult with his client, the Government of Canada, and come back with the latter's response to my interpretation of parliamentary law, which takes precedence over court rulings. We have to have the freedom to speak, and we have to have access to all of the documents. So things got off to a bad start with the first witness.

    Then the generals arrived and they all said the same thing. It then became clear how unbelievable the situation was. These generals did not hold back. I even found them to be a bit arrogant. They said they had access to all the documents. And I am not talking about redacted documents, where even the date at the top has been crossed out and all that is left is the initial salutation and final “thank you” because the rest is completely or almost completely blacked out. Those are censored documents.

    The generals told us they consulted the documents and did not see any problem. They were all singing from the same song sheet. I have never seen one general contradict another. The three generals became the three tenors of denial. To their knowledge nothing happened and nothing will change.

    We began having serious doubts about the government's credibility. These people are not going to accuse themselves. What is more, they have a version that we cannot verify. It would be like a defence lawyer having documents in his or her possession that the crown attorney did not have. Some say they have certain information in their documents, but we cannot take action because we have not seen those documents. We are not on an equal footing in this situation.

    We asked to see the documents, but everyone says there will be no documents. For two weeks now we have been asking the government to provide us with uncensored documents. I do not know if those documents are available today, but as of yesterday, we still had not received them. The inquiry is proceeding. The Judge Advocate General, the generals, Mr. Colvin and David Mulroney have all appeared before the committee, but we still have not received any documents. So we are being forced to proceed blindly, in the dark. Has there ever been anything like it? It is very difficult. Quite simply, they are making it almost impossible for us to do our job.

    So then Mr. Colvin appeared before the committee and caused quite an uproar. I thought his testimony was excellent—unfortunately for him, one might say, but fortunately for us. Since I see that I have only one minute left, I will speed things up a little. I had more prepared.

    So Mr. Colvin really caused an uproar. We are now grappling with the need for a public inquiry. We have no choice; we have no access to the documents. Our witnesses are being muzzled and we have only seven minutes to ask them questions. As soon as we have finished, the committee moves on to another party, which also has seven minutes, and so on. Our witnesses can duck and weave all they want, but a public inquiry is needed, one with an independent judge who can access the documents and who will compel witnesses to give their evidence with full immunity.

    This is what is needed at this time and what we are calling for. That is why we support the motion for a public inquiry.

    Mr. Speaker, when it comes to detainee transfer, in reply to a question, the government has said that there is absolutely no evidence, that only one person has claimed there were problems.

    Mr. Smith, who was the cause for the government to stop transfers of detainees, provided evidence. He wrote extensively in the Globe and Mail. In regard to a detainee he interviewed, he said, as a result of the abuse by the Afghans:

    What does my colleague think of that? Is that evidence to him that there were problems in the system, or is Mr. Smith just another accomplice of the Taliban?

    Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague from Ottawa Centre for his question as it allows me to finish my remarks.

    That is what Mr. Smith said. Personally, I believe what he said. I also believe Mr. Mulroney and Mr. Colvin. The latter sent a report to Mr. Mulroney that was published by the CBC. In the report, almost everything is blacked out, with the exception of certain areas where it is possible to read that prisoners were beaten with cables, electrocuted and had their fingers cut and burned. This was pointed out to Mr. Mulroney. I asked Mr. Mulroney this question and I even tabled the document. I asked him if he had seen this document. He told me he had.

    So how can he claim that there was no torture? Afterwards, Mr. Mulroney's defence was that Canadian soldiers capture prisoners, hand them over to the authorities and we know that they are not tortured. In the same sentence, he admitted that there is no monitoring system. Therefore, they cannot be monitored in prison. How can he say that?

    Mr. Mulroney, an experienced diplomat, acknowledged that under the Geneva Convention, prisoners cannot be turned over to those who use torture. The convention goes further and states that prisoners cannot be transferred if there is a risk of torture. Everyone agrees that there is a risk of torture. Not just Mr. Smith agrees. We also have the Colvin report, submitted to Mr. Mulroney, that describes the abuse detainees were subjected to.

    Mr. Speaker, there were so many misrepresentations in my colleague's testimony that I cannot possibly cover them all.

    The document he showed Mr. Mulroney was from mid-2007 after we were already taking action. He said that they had asked for the documents by December 2. He should check his calendar. It is not December 2. The sanctions that we were to be talked about was if somebody broke the law in testimony, not simply that he or she would testify. There are many others, but I will go to a question.

    He said whom he believes. He left out the generals. He has called the generals arrogant. My colleague from Vancouver South has repeated allegations that the testimony of the generals was morally weak and legally flimsy. He said that they were singing off the same song sheet, implying that perhaps there was some collusion. Maybe they are singing off the same song sheet because they are simply telling the truth.

    Is my colleague calling the generals liars? Is he calling them morally weak and legally flimsy, or does he put some faith in the Canadian Forces and the leadership that he claims he does?

    Mr. Speaker, I want to thank the parliamentary secretary, because he often gives me the chance to reopen the debate. He never misses an opportunity to do so.

    Is he saying that there have been other cases of torture since the second agreement took effect? Is that what he is saying? He says that my dates are wrong. Torture took place before and after 2007. Is that clear enough? That is the information we have now. I did not say the generals had lied, I said they were arrogant. They said, “We have the documents and you MPs do not.” That is what they said. We are unable to prove anything because we do not have the documents, except for ones that have been heavily redacted.

    The motion we put forward has to do with uncensored documents. We want those documents so that everyone is on a level playing field. So far, the government has refused to give them to us.

    Mr. Speaker, I find this extremely dramatic. It is clear what the Conservatives are trying to do. They are draping themselves in the flag and trying to tell us that as soon as we ask questions, we are automatically against the army. There is a major difference, and I do not understand why they are applauding, because it makes no sense. Just because we are asking questions and trying to comply with the Geneva convention, that does not mean we are automatically against the generals or the army as a whole.

    On the contrary, we supported the war in Afghanistan because we wanted to send our troops, our children, there to defend democracy. But the problem is that the government is practising the exact opposite of what it is preaching in Afghanistan. We sent our children to Afghanistan to bring democracy to that country. The problem is that in Canada, the government is not even able to respect the very essence of democracy. If the government has nothing to hide, it would give us the documents we need.

    What does my colleague think of the obscurantist attitude the Conservatives are taking in order to hide the truth from us? If they had absolutely nothing to hide, they would turn over the documents.

    Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague for his speech. I will add that if the Conservatives had the will, they would agree to a public inquiry. I see that the Prime Minister is in China today. He will surely have problems convincing the Chinese president that human rights are not being respected in China. The president will respond that the same thing is going on in Canada. The Chinese have the same attitude as the Conservative government. They keep people in the dark there as well. They do not want to say so. They are hiding behind their ways of doing things, and the Canadian government is doing the same thing with the detainees. A public inquiry is needed because we are being prevented from doing our work. Even though we still have our freedom of expression, a public inquiry is needed to get to the bottom of things.

    In the meantime, the committee will continue to do its work, but right now, everyone knows that the government wants to hide the truth from the public. That is the sad reality.

    Mr. Speaker, does the member feel the government is simply fighting against the inquiry primarily because it desperately wants to renew the commitment beyond the 2011 deadline? Having an inquiry will turn more Canadians against the war. Does he think that is a possibility?

    Mr. Speaker, I was asked a similar question the other day on Radio-Canada, and I heard the statements made by various ministers and the Prime Minister that our mission would end in 2011. But I added that pressure on the Canadian government from NATO allies would also increase. One thing is certain at present; the Canadian government is hiding the truth because it thinks that it would have a negative effect on the mission in Afghanistan and especially on public opinion. In such circumstances, people will say that they are not in favour.

    I would tell the government that Conservative members are taking a risk by ignoring all the members of this House and all Canadians who want to know the truth. We intend to pursue this until we get the truth. And if the government keeps stalling us here, we hope to be able to continue this search for the truth by means of a public inquiry.

    Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise to support the motion, which I seconded. It states:

    First, I should address the fact that the spread of the dates here obviously coincides with the commencement of Canadian activity in Afghanistan starting in 2001, continuing to this day, the longest military engagement in which Canada has participated. The second world war was shorter than that as was the first world war. We have a long-standing Canadian engagement in military activity and military combat abroad.

    There is the importance of Canada doing this kind of activity in a way that complies with our obligations as a country, to ourselves, to the international community and, first and foremost, to our soldiers who are asked to conduct this very dangerous and important activity in the context of our international human rights obligations. However, we need to know whether we put the systems in place to meet these obligations.

     I will start with a quote from Brigadier-General Ken Watkin, Judge Advocate General, who appeared before the Special Committee on the Canadian Mission in Afghanistan on November 4 of this year. He set out the legal framework of the obligation about which we are concerned. He says, “The prohibition against torture is a peremptory and non-derogable norm of international law”, and here is the nub. He says:

    That avoids all the semantics of whether the Geneva Convention applies or whether there were prisoners of war, or any of those diversions we have heard government members engage in from time to time, even claiming in one debate in the House that it was not a war at all. Why the members would do that I do not know. It certainly is a diversion from the reality, as Brigadier-General Watkin pointed out to the Afghanistan committee.

    We need an inquiry to find out whether the systems that Canada put in place from day one meet our international legal obligations. The government tries to fog this up in attacks on the patriotism of individual members of Parliament when we question a general. I do not know when this became something that was wholier than thou, that when people criticize a general, they are unpatriotic. This seems to be more the kind of thing we would hear in a more militaristic state than we have in Canada.

    We have the right to debate these issues, not that I question any particular statement of a general. However, surely this a country where parliamentarians and the civilian authority is the authority that is important. We honour and respect the work of our soldiers and their sacrifices. We saw a national outpouring during the week of November 11, in which all Canadians recognized that.

    However, this is not the point. In establishing this mission in Afghanistan and then carrying out this mission, the primary responsibility of the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade is to ensure that our international legal obligations are looked after. The senior military authorities in the Department of National Defence and the minister are primarily responsible. The question is this. Is the 2005 agreement, which I think is universally regarded as being inadequate, and our practices now in keeping with our international obligations?

    The call for an inquiry is a call for us to find that out in an atmosphere where there is an objective and independent review of the facts and circumstances that were known or should have been known to the government at the time in question. It is not about attacks on individual public servants that are taking place regularly in this House and in the wider public. There needs to be an objective voice and an objective weighing of the issues and concepts.

    We are not talking necessarily about evidence. One would not know from listening to the Minister of National Defence that we are talking about a criminal prosecution being undertaken by Richard Colvin. He was doing his job. His job was to report to Canadian authorities on the very things on which he reported. He used the sources that were available to him as part of any normal activity of a Canadian diplomat or political officer in the situation he was in.

    Let us not forget that Richard Colvin replaced Canadian diplomat Glynn Berry who, four months previously, was killed by an IED. Mr. Colvin was a brave and courageous Canadian who went to do a job for his country in Afghanistan and is being vilified daily in the House of Commons by the government. That is a shame.

    David Mulroney, to his credit, acknowledged the courage, bravery and contribution of Richard Colvin in his work in Kandahar for the Canadian government. As I say, to his credit, Mr. Mulroney's testimony acknowledged that. In fact, he said when the changes were made in 2007, they relied on Mr. Colvin and his work as part of the whole picture of what was going on in Afghanistan.

    Mr. Mulroney does not share the view of the Minister of National Defence and others in the government who have done some damage to Mr. Colvin's reputation, but not enough to persuade Canadians that an inquiry is not necessary. In fact, the majority of Canadians, according to a recent poll, support the need for an independent public inquiry into what went on with respect to the handling of detainees.

    We hear people from time to time ask why anybody would care, that this is about Afghanistan, a backward country, that all the people are Taliban and they do not have any regard for Canadian lives and why should Canadians care about them. That is part of a theme that runs counter to the call for an inquiry and for Canadians raising concerns and believing that there should be concern.

    Since Mr. Colvin was the first one to bring this up in his testimony, I could do no better than to quote the rhetorical question he asked and then answered before the committee on Afghanistan. He asked, “Even if Afghan detainees were being tortured, why should Canadians care?” He gave five compelling reasons. “First, our detainees are not what the intelligence services would call “high-value targets”, such as IED bomb makers, al-Qaeda terrorists or Taliban commanders”.

    In other words, the people who were being gathered up were not necessarily as a result of intelligence efforts and choosing individuals to arrest because they were people who were picked up by intelligence sources. They were picked up by conventional forces doing routine military operations. Many of them, as he pointed out, would not have been targets of investigation.

    This has been confirmed by later meetings with Afghanistan security officials, who complained that they had to release many of the people who were passed over to them because they did not have any supporting evidence or information as to why they were detained. They were not Taliban. The indication is that the NDS and others have a very high knowledge base of who is and is not Taliban. His conclusion was that a lot of innocent people may have been handed over for severe torture.

    He went on to say that the second reason we should care is that seizing people and rendering them for torture is a very serious violation of international and Canadian law. He said that Canada has always been a powerful advocate of international law and human rights, that that is a keystone of who we are as Canadians and what we have always stood for as a people and a nation. He said that to do so would be contrary to our own stated policies. In April 2007 the Prime Minister said publicly that Canadian military officers do not send anybody at all to be tortured. That was indeed our policy, but behind the military's wall of secrecy, in Mr. Colvin's view, that is unfortunately what we were doing. He said that even if all of the Afghans who were detained had been Taliban, it would still have been wrong for them to be tortured.

    The Canadian military is a proud and professional organization, thoroughly trained in the rules of war and the correct treatment of prisoners. The question is, at that time, what was the level of knowledge in Afghanistan of government officials and, by implication, the military? Was it sufficient to render a view that there was a real risk of torture or ill treatment if detainees were handed over? That is a question that has to be answered, not by me or by the government here today. We have heard people's views on it. We have heard Mr. Mulroney's view on it. We have heard the generals' views on it. Whether there was evidence of any individual detainee who was handed over by Canada and had been subsequently tortured is not the question, whether there was proof of torture of a particular individual. In fact, the system was such that it was almost impossible to have such proof.

     What Mr. Mulroney said to the committee last week was that after signing the second memorandum, and we are talking about May of 2000, a database of detained prisoners was developed. In other words, he confirmed what had been said by Mr. Colvin and others, that prior to then, we were not tracking or monitoring the prisoners, and therefore we could not answer that question ourselves. Whom do we rely on to determine whether or not there was a real risk of torture?

    Mr. Colvin, in writing his reports, doing his job and relying on the sources that he was required to rely on, said as follows in an affidavit to the MPCC:

     --and we have seen some of those reports--

    He said the same thing to the committee and what happened? He was attacked by the government for it. He did not even tell us who his sources were. Of course, the names of the sources are confidential, and that is totally understandable.

    Why do we need a public inquiry? Because the organizations to which he referred and the evidence that was laid out, and previous speakers have referred to it, indicated that the United States Department of State, Human Rights Watch, the Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission and other agencies confirm the level of torture and ill treatment in Afghanistan jails was, to quote some, commonplace.

    Was there a real risk of torture? That is something that may have to be decided objectively. Did we have procedures in place to prevent that from happening? It is a given that we did not. Obviously the changes that were made indicated that, and some of the things that Mr. Colvin has said were used in doing that.

    A Globe and Mail editorial last week talked about four questions, and these are four questions that we believe can only be answered in an objective inquiry.

    Here is what the Globe and Mail editorial said:

     That is the fundamental question that has not been answered. All we have had is pot shots being taken at opposition members and at diplomats who were doing their job to try and get this information forward.

    The article also asked who else inside the government was expressing concern. The government is saying that Mr. Colvin the one person. I frankly do not believe that Mr. Colvin was the only one who expressed any concern about the treatment of detainees in Afghanistan prisons. How do we find that out? We will not find it out by going on fishing expeditions in a parliamentary committee but by having a full public inquiry where someone can do the job.

    The article also asked what the extent and the result of the investigation was once undertaken. The article is talking about information before April 2007. Another questions was how widespread was the culture of secrecy. We do know that other countries such as the U.K. and the Netherlands that have been engaged in this activity had open, transparent and comprehensive policies. They had policies which followed up on their detainees and made proper reports.

    While all the information was being kept secret, the minister of defence of the day in 2006-07 said there was no problem because the International Committee of the Red Cross, the ICRC, was monitoring the prisoners and the ICRC would tell us if anything was going wrong. That mantra was presented to the House of Commons month after month until finally the International Committee of the Red Cross had enough and made it public that not only did it not monitor prisoners, but it could not do that. It only tells the Afghan government if it sees anything.

     I do not even think the Conservative government was able to notify the Red Cross of what prisoners it had because of its poor record keeping and it failed--

    Mr. Laurie Hawn: That was the previous government.

    Mr. Jack Harris: Mr. Speaker, the member is saying that was the previous government. If that was the previous government and if what the member is saying is true, then that would also be part of the subject of the inquiry.

    Mr. Ed Fast: Jack, you've got to get to the truth.

    Mr. Jack Harris: Mr. Speaker, a member opposite said we have to get to the truth. That is exactly what we have to do. This forum or parliamentary committees should not be the places where people banter back and forth on this subject. We need an objective inquiry.

    What would an inquiry do? What would be the value in having an inquiry? It has been suggested recently by a distinguished professor of law that there are five important attributes of a public inquiry: one, independence; two, effectiveness; three, an adequate mandate; four, investigative powers; and five, transparency.

    The primary one has to be independence. Regardless of how reasonable I am being here today, and I think I am being extremely reasonable, I am obviously being regarded by members opposite and probably people in other parties as being somewhat less than independent, somewhat biased. That comes with politics. Equally true, of course, is what is being said on the other side by ministers who have a stake in whether or not mistakes were made in the past. They have a bias as well. Independence is extremely important.

    As to the effectiveness of an inquiry, an inquiry would be much more capable than a parliamentary committee of doing a proper job, such as examining witnesses.

    The investigative powers, and in fact, the transparency and openness of a public inquiry is what Canadians want and what Canadians need.

    Mr. Speaker, I just have a couple of questions and a quote for my hon. colleague.

    First of all, when he repeats Mr. Colvin's claim that we were rounding up farmers, cab drivers and so on, that testimony was specifically, very clearly and very credibly, repudiated by all three generals. The only people who were turned over to the NDS were people who had clearly been involved in explosive or firearms activities, through gunshot residue, through capture while in the act, and so on. To say we were turning over complete innocents is just simply a false statement.

    We talked about the ICRC. When asked if reports had been sent to Canadian authorities at any time since Canadian combat forces arrived in Kandahar to fight the Taliban in 2006, Mr. Fillion of the ICRC declined to comment, citing his organization's policy:

    So how can my hon. colleague suggest that the ICRC was somehow implying, as per his implication, that we were doing something wrong?

    Mr. Speaker, first of all, I was not there when the general spoke to the committee, but I did see a report in which General Hillier specifically said that we may have passed over some innocent people.

    I could be wrong. I have not read the transcript, but I have heard him say that he said that. I obviously know that our troops would not deliberately arrest people that they thought were innocent. We do have reports from the Afghanistan authorities saying that they had to release a lot of people who were passed over to them by the Canadians because they did not have enough information to support the detention.

    That is what they said. That is not what I said. That is not what General Hillier said. That is what they said. Whether that is right or not, I do not know. I know it is part of the information that is out there that I would hope a public inquiry would deal with.

    The ICRC is an independent body. It does not report only to the host country. That is its policy. That was a concern that I raised. The previous minister of defence ended up being embarrassed and had to apologize to this House of Commons for statements he made continuously misleading the House on that point.

    Mr. Speaker, I want to thank the member for his reasoned argument in favour of the motion that there be a public inquiry. I think he has given some sage advice to the House.

    From the debate that I have listened to thus far, there is clearly—

    Some hon. members: Oh, oh!

    Mr. Paul Szabo: Mr. Speaker, it is interesting that the only people in the House who are trying to disrupt or shout down members who are speaking are the Conservative members because they are on the defensive.

    There is a disagreement on some of the facts. Even General Hillier, I was there—

    Mr. Colin Mays: Look at him, he's the only one there.

    Mr. Rick Norlock: You poor innocent crier.

    Mr. Ed Fast: It's because you're the only one in the House.

    Mr. Vic Toews: Why don't you call out one of your Liberal colleagues to speak out.

    Mr. Paul Szabo: Then we have the government being on the defensive. Now we have the President of the Treasury Board making a fool of himself yet again.

    The committee has been stonewalled, the documents were not available. When I sat there and listened to the presentations, I knew that the witnesses had the documents but that the members of the committee did not have the documents. They could not ask the questions in proper context. Even if they do get the redacted form, we still cannot possibly understand the details.

    Finally, the minister said this morning that this is unnecessary, we have had other studies. He referred to the April 2006 Canadian Forces review where it concluded that no members of the Canadian Forces mistreated Afghan detainees. That is clearly not even relevant to the debate. He is obviously trying to switch the channel and take it off the real facts, that an inquiry is necessary to find the truth.

    Mr. Speaker, no one on this side of the House has suggested, to my knowledge, that any Canadian Forces member mistreated prisoners. So that is not the issue at all.

    I share the member's concern about what goes on in committee and not having access to documents that the witnesses are referring to, without even knowing what they are, how many documents there are, or what is in them. That would never happen in a public inquiry.

    A parliamentary committee meeting lasts two hours a week, or an hour and a half at the last meeting I was at, and is a highly-politically charged environment when dealing with this issue. It is impossible to get at the truth. It is impossible to do more than contribute to the back-and-forth banter on a partisan basis about something that Canadians believe ought to be put to a public inquiry.

    I would urge the government to do that, if for no other reason than to allow us to go on to other issues that are much more important. What are we doing in the future in Afghanistan? That is pretty important and we have to get to that.

    Mr. Speaker, one of the facts that was brought up during the committee proceedings was that when General Fraser was asked whether he was aware of the allegations of Governor Khalid, who was the governor of Kandahar with whom we had a lot of dealings, being involved in torture, the general said that he was not aware. Which is fair. That is evidence. Then, the next day, when Mr. Mulroney was in front of the committee, he was asked the very same question and he said, yes, that he was aware of that and that there were concerns.

    In fact, we know what happened. We ended up having to have the governor around a bit longer because one of the foreign affairs ministers of the day went to Kandahar and bleated out the concerns that he was going to be removed, and we ended up with him for longer. So, we have those contradictions.

    The other one is that all of the generals, when asked whether they were aware that there was abuse in Afghan institutions, said, yes, yes and yes. So, what we have are different emphasis of facts, and contradictions in some cases.

     Is it not the best thing to do right now, I ask my colleague, in order to sort out these facts, to have an independent inquiry?

    Mr. Speaker, I guess the member will not be surprised by my response. Clearly, if we have an inquiry, we have a dispassionate arbitrator, who is normally a judge, who has a tremendous amount of experience testing evidence, trying facts, sorting facts from opinion, and weighing the evidence.

    This is the kind of independence that we would have from a public inquiry. And if there were any documents that were relevant to a particular witness, those documents would be before the inquiry. The parties would have them, the counsel would have them, and they would be able to use those documents to test their memory.

    Witnesses do not always remember everything and they do not remember them correctly. Anybody who has been to any kind of inquiry or court proceeding knows that when witnesses are subject to examination, or cross-examination, it does not have to be a nasty cross-examination but probing cross-examination, witnesses remember a lot more things than they might remember off the top of their heads.

    So, it is a process whereby the truth can be weighed and be determined. That is why we need an inquiry, not the kind of charade that has happened from time to time in front of this committee.

    Mr. Speaker, as we know, public inquiries cost millions upon millions of dollars to conduct. When this government actually undertakes a public inquiry, there is usually significant evidence to warrant it.

    What we get on a weekly basis here from the opposition parties is requests for public inquiries where there is not a shred of evidence available to make a prima facie case that we should actually move forward with an inquiry of this nature. All we get are drive-by smears. We get an unrelenting barrage from the opposition, attacking our soldiers in the field, attacking this government for the good work that it is doing in supporting our troops.

    So, my question for this NDP member is, why would he put the taxpayers of this country to such an incredible expense when there is absolutely no evidence at all that Canadian soldiers transferred detainees to the Afghans and that those detainees were actually tortured?

    Mr. Speaker, clearly, it is whether or not there was a real risk of torture. The member is asking the wrong question and, therefore, he is going to get the wrong answer. That is the problem here. The Conservatives put up the wrong questions and then they answer them. They are never going to get to the truth by doing that.

    By the way, I do not wish to trivialize it, but we have a very important public inquiry going on with respect to the salmon industry in B.C. That is going to cost money. This will cost money, yes, but the war in Afghanistan is costing $18 billion, and the expense of a public inquiry is worth Canada's reputation.

    Mr. Speaker, I would like to preface my comments on the issue of Canada transferring Taliban detainees to Afghan authorities by reminding some of the members here that Canada is operating in Afghanistan in a challenging and complex environment with respect to security.

    Afghanistan is one of the poorest and most dangerous countries in the world.

    Our soldiers, diplomats, humanitarian workers, police and correctional officers and others are putting their lives at risk to build a better, safer world for Afghans, Canadians and the international community.

    With respect to the transfer of Taliban prisoners, it is important to remember that Canadian Forces personnel do capture individuals during military operations.

    The reason they do that is to protect themselves from danger, to provide better protection and stability to the Afghan people, and to prevent terrorist attacks against Canada and the international community.

    Canadian Forces personnel transfer these detainees to Afghan authorities under a supplementary agreement between the governments of Canada and Afghanistan signed on May 3, 2007.

    Let me be perfectly clear. There has never been a proven allegation of abuse involving a transferred Taliban prisoner by Canadian Forces. This is about what Afghans allegedly did to other Afghans. This is not about our brave men and women serving in the battlefields of Afghanistan.

    We have said it before and we will continue to reiterate it, when the military and diplomats have been presented with credible, substantiated evidence, they have taken appropriate action.

    I want to emphasize to the House that, as it has always done, the Government of Canada ensures that the prisoners it transfers to Afghan authorities are treated humanely in accordance with both countries' obligations under international law.

    When concerns were expressed, we took action. The 2005 transfer agreement was not good enough, so we came up with a better one.

    When allegations surfaced, we acted. We strengthened an inadequate 2005 transfer agreement.

    In addition, under the terms of the new agreement, Canada boasts one of the most rigorous mechanisms for the monitoring of prisoners, as well as access to those transferred to Afghan authorities, in order to ensure the protection of their rights.

    Once prisoners are transferred, Afghan authorities are ultimately responsible for how they are treated.

    However, and just as important, it allows for the development of this essential capacity, where no such capacity existed before.

    I would remind the House that Afghanistan is an independent, sovereign state and in the end, that country's government is responsible for protecting its citizens, enforcing the law and ensuring that human rights are respected.

    In that spirit, Canada is trying to help ensure that prisoners' rights are being respected, especially those captured by Canadians and transferred to Afghan authorities.

    Canada's efforts are focused on two goals: providing general programs to develop Afghan capacities in order to improve conditions for all Afghan prisoners; and maintaining a rigorous, effective oversight and monitoring system in order to ensure proper treatment of prisoners transferred by Canadians.

    Our government has made significant investments in building the Afghan government's capacity to detain Afghan and other insurgents and to investigate, prosecute and convict them, in accordance with the Afghan government's responsibilities and its international obligations.

    In particular, Canada supported the reform of the correctional sector in Kandahar and throughout Afghanistan by providing mentoring and strategic training activities, as well as providing assistance to improve the related infrastructure and equipment.

    As the hon. members here today know, our government negotiated and entered into a new agreement with the government of Afghanistan. That agreement took effect on May 3, 2007.

    Under the new agreement, Canadian representatives have full, private and unlimited access to all prisoners transferred by Canada to the Afghan authorities.

    Our supplementary arrangement provides one of the strongest safeguards to ensure the protection and monitoring, through visitation, of human rights of prisoners who are transferred by Canada to Afghan authorities.

    Since 2007, when Canada obtained the right to have access to detainees captured by the Canadian Forces under the supplementary agreement, Canadian authorities have made nearly 200 visits to those detainees. They have often visited them once or twice a week for private interviews, even though such visits could expose them to considerable personal risk.

    If, during these visits or by some other means, Canadian authorities learn of serious allegations of abuse, Canada immediately notifies the International Committee of the Red Cross and the Afghan human rights commission and raises the issue with the highest Afghan government authorities so that a proper investigation is held.

    When Canadian investigations revealed plausible allegations of abuse of Afghan prisoners transferred by the Canadian Forces, we took action. We did not start transferring detainees again until February 2008, after we had ensured that our requirements had been met and the necessary conditions had been restored.

    We can be proud of our men and women in uniform in this respect as in all respects. We should not play politics with the difficult mission of those who protect us. There is no need to launch a public inquiry into this matter. The special parliamentary committee on Afghanistan has also undertaken a study on the issue of detainee transfer. Witnesses have appeared and, in the upcoming weeks, more are scheduled to testify.

    The testimony last week before our committee of Generals Hillier, Gauthier and Fraser as well as Mr. David Mulroney demonstrate clearly just how difficult, involved and complex this effort has been. However, it has demonstrated that, despite these difficulties, they were always conscious of their responsibilities when it came to the question of transferring prisoners held by the Canadian Forces to Afghan authorities. That is a critical point that we should not lose sight of as this debate goes forward in the House today.

    During these committee proceedings, the opposition has been free to call witnesses, as they did with Mr. Colvin. The hearings have been broadcast on national television, so Canadians have been able to see the proceedings for themselves. What did they see? Canadians saw the compelling testimony of three distinguished Canadian generals and a top diplomat, Mr. David Mulroney, the former senior official in the Privy Council Office, in charge of coordinating our efforts in Afghanistan.

    What did they hear? They heard the clear and unequivocal message that at no time and under no circumstances did Canadian Forces transfer detainees when they suspected there was a real risk of torture. That was confirmed by all the witnesses except Mr. Colvin.

    Retired General Hillier said, “We didn't base our actions upon people making statements that all detainees were being tortured. How ludicrous a statement is that from any one single individual who really has no knowledge to be able to say something like that. We certainly didn't see any substantive evidence that would indicate it was that way”.

    Mr. Mulroney said, “I can say we have no evidence that any Canadian transfer of detainees was mistreated”.

    Could all the other witnesses be wrong? Is the opposition asserting that anyone is lying?

     Let us go back to the facts. When did we have real documented concerns as we did in November 2007? When we did, those transfers were stopped. We were only able to reach those conclusion because, in May 2007, our government put in place a more robust monitoring mechanism, one that supplemented the Liberal 2005 arrangement. That was two and a half years ago. That is the record. Canadians know it.

    The government has given the commission its full cooperation; it has submitted thousands of pages of relevant documents, and numerous officials have already testified.

    The Special Committee on the Canadian Mission in Afghanistan has also begun studying the issue of detainee transfers. Witnesses have already appeared, and others are scheduled to testify in the weeks to come.

    I travelled to Afghanistan twice and met with dozens of Canadian soldiers, police officers and officials. Each time, I was impressed by the courage, calm, strength of character and genuine patriotism of all these people. They are the glory of their generation, as were the heroes of Vimy, Dieppe and so many other theatres of war where Canadians fought to defend our values and our freedoms. These men and women are also putting their lives in danger to secure a better future for a country that is trying to ward off the threat of totalitarianism, sectarianism and extremism.

    The worst excesses, the worst cruelty we have seen in generations have been committed in Afghanistan by the horrible Taliban regime and their terrorist accomplices.

    The members of the official opposition, whose party decided to send our soldiers into this region—and our party supported them—know full well that we face a cruel, unscrupulous enemy.

    In closing, I invite them to think about that when they are tempted to criticize the people who are defending our honour against the forces of barbarism.

    Mr. Speaker, I am not sure what testimony the minister is referring to, but that has never been the case. In fact, even Mr. Colvin was very clear, as we all have been, that this is not about the men and women on the ground. This is about the people up the chain.

    On that, I was taken by the fact that the minister did not refer to the fact that the MPCC was shut down. I will read from a source in the paper yesterday, which says, “Two years ago, the Harper government gave the complaints commission $5 million in special funding to look into the detainee probe, but guess what? They have been kept in the dark. For almost two years, they have not been able to do their work. In fact, not one single document has been provided”, and it is the same problem for our committee. That was written by Greg Weston of the Sun.

    Fifty-three per cent of Canadians want an inquiry. The MPCC has been shut down and we have had the committee starved of documents.

    My question is very simple. What are the Conservatives hiding? Why are they trying to avoid accountability and transparency? It is not only for their government. This motion goes back to 2001. What are they hiding?

    Before I go to the minister, I just want to remind all hon. members that they should not use the names of other members in the House, even when they quote from a newspaper article.

    The hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs.

    Mr. Speaker, we are hiding absolutely nothing. The Prime Minister has made it quite clear that we will refer documents, those documents that are legally authorized, to the purview of the committee.

    Everybody recognizes as well that, yes, these documents are redacted. I point out for my hon. colleagues that our Canadian Forces are still in that theatre of operation. There still is a war going on and in that context, the different articles, particularly sections 37 and 38 of the Canada Evidence Act, must apply. We are doing exactly what the Prime Minister said my colleague, the Minister of Defence, said they would do.

    All the information is there. A public inquiry is going on now. The problem is when evidence is given at the committee that does not seem to suit the machinations of my colleagues on the other side of the House, they try to find another way of finding or turning around the truth, but this is the truth.

    Mr. Speaker, in his speech the minister started off by saying that the mission was in a difficult and complex environment, that military personnel were putting their lives in danger, that we were protecting people from danger and preventing the possibility of terrorist attacks on Canada and that the 2005 agreement guiding the transfer of detainees was inadequate. If we look at all those reasons, I would not have been surprised for the minister then to conclude,“So now you understand why there is the possibility that in fact was torture of detainees who were transferred”.

    Does the minister believe that the committee, which has limited meeting time and could not possibly recall various witnesses or have the access that a public inquiry would have, would be able to ultimately find out where we are going on this? We have the independence, because there is a partisan element, the effectiveness, we obviously know the restrictions on that, the adequacy of the work, again it is just the committee structure itself, the investigative powers and the transparency and openness, which is not happening now particularly with regard to those documents. Why will the minister not admit that a public inquiry will get to the truth?

    Mr. Speaker, what my colleague forgot to mention is that the opposition parties control the committee. In that regard, they can pretty well do what they want. Up to now, they have pretty well done what they wanted.

    With regard to the documents, I will repeat what I told my other colleague. The documents will be available on December 2. The Prime Minister has mentioned that. I would invite my colleague to be a little patient.

    I listened to the debate this morning and I heard my hon. colleague from Toronto Centre say that they were there from 2001, that the Liberals were in government and that they were indeed responsible. Today they are all in agreement to have a public inquiry. They think it is the appropriate thing to do. I could not help but reflect on the people around me. The member for Toronto Centre set the place on fire and instead of calling the firemen, he ran.

    If you cannot stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.

    We are the ones who have taken the appropriate measures and restored the credibility of and trust in our men and women who are working in that military theatre.

    Mr. Speaker, I have a very simple question.

    We see the powers and scope a public inquiry could have. The opposition and the Canadian public would finally get the real story. We would have the documents and meetings with the witnesses and we could call people who would have the duty to speak and provide answers.

    The government keeps boasting that it is telling us nothing but the truth, that there is no problem in Afghanistan and that everything is going well. If the facts can back up that claim, then why refuse to hold a public inquiry? First, it would clear the government and prove it right, if that is the case. What I am getting from this is that by insisting on blocking a public inquiry, the minister is playing exactly the same game his little Liberal friends in Quebec City are playing: trying to hide the affair so that no one will talk about it in order to avoid telling the real story. Is he protecting someone? Is there something he is hiding?

    If the facts are behind them, then let them launch a public inquiry right now.

    Mr. Speaker, I did not entirely understand the question. He is saying we are protecting Liberals in Quebec City. I think he is confused.

    The truth speaks for itself. The hon. member is young and I just want him to know—

    Mr. Nicolas Dufour: He cannot just spout off—

    Hon. Lawrence Cannon: If the hon. member could be quiet for a few seconds and allow me to respond. I was just going to tell him that December 2, is tomorrow; less than 24 hours from now. All the documents that legally can be presented to the committee will be. The Prime Minister confirmed that. I would ask the hon. member to be a little patient. I can understand his impetuousness. He sees scandals and commissions of inquiry everywhere, but let him take a deep breath and settle down. He will understand how this all works.

    Mr. Speaker, I have a really short question for my hon. colleague. The special committee is under way right now. As he mentioned, the opposition controls that committee. They are the masters of their own fate.

    Does it not make sense for the special committee to finish its work before we run off with our hair on fire seeking a public inquiry?

    Mr. Speaker, on the principle of coming forward with all of the information, making sure that this is a clear and transparent exercise, the Canadian Forces have nothing to reproach themselves for. They have done this in the right and proper fashion. Indeed, the government, when it witnessed the lamentable way the previous government handled this issue, did the appropriate thing and put in place the appropriate mechanisms. We have to continue until we can complete this.

    Mr. Speaker, I will be sharing my time with the member for Outremont.

    Canada has been involved militarily in Afghanistan since 2001 and questions about detainees have been asked for years.

    Reports are available from the U.S. state department and Human Rights Watch saying that torture was and is commonplace in Afghan prisons.

    Amnesty International and the British Columbia Civil Liberties Association sought a court injunction to stop detainee transfers. The morning of the first hearings in May 2007, the Conservatives signed a new detainee transfer document.

    This agreement contained many of the elements that New Democrats had been asking for: a rights of inspection of Afghan prisons, a right of follow-up and a limit on the prisons to which detainees could be transferred.

    However, since 2007 almost no documents have been released about inspections or follow-ups that we may or may not have done. The only documents that have been released were compiled in the summer of 2007 and contained allegations of torture from the reports of Canadian officials. It was stated by these witnesses that wounds of abuse were seen.

    The government has refused to release any documents related to any inspections that may or may not have happened around these various halts in transfers.

    The Military Police Complaints Commission has been investigating detainee abuse in transfers and the government has not given it a single page of evidence since February 2008.

    This is clearly an attempt to cover up. Because the opposition members are asking for answers and for the truth to be revealed, the Conservatives claim that the opposition do not support our troops. Nothing could be further from the truth. They are simply using our troops as a shield so they do not have to release documents and answer questions

    This is in the same vein as government statements that the war is protecting women and children. Claims have been made by the government that our soldiers are there to protect women and children. We have heard this 100 times. Yet the situation and realities of life for many women and children have not improved. The establishment of women's rights has long been used to justify Canada's intervention in Afghanistan when, in fact, the U.S. led coalition entered Afghanistan in response to 9/11 and under the right of self-defence after the Taliban regime allowed al-Qaeda to base itself in that country.

    Women's rights groups and female Afghan parliamentarians have stated that women's rights have not improved in Afghanistan, nor are they a priority for the government there. In fact, leaked Government of Canada reports say that women's rights have not improved since the fall of the Taliban. The Taliban regime committed horrendous atrocities and prevented women from enjoying even basic human rights.

    However, the Taliban does not have a monopoly on the abuse of women's rights. Other armed groups, such as the Northern Alliance, also have a history of oppressing women. Former Northern Alliance warlords are now local governors and members of the Karzai government.

    In fact, after the election of Mr. Karzai, the Afghan department for vice and virtue was reinstated. This notorious department was responsible for many of the atrocities committed during Taliban rule.

    In addition, in an effort to fight the Taliban, international forces have made deals with notorious warlords and armed militia who are complicit in the abuse. This means that women are unable to turn to the very forces who are supposed to protect them.

    In June 1997 the NDP defence critic tabled a minority report on Canadian involvement in Afghanistan, outlining among other things that Afghan women were not adequately protected or supported by the international military presence in their country. This has been completely ignored by the government.

    The Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission has reported that women and girls continue to be threatened and deprived of their human rights. The first basic right is the right to education.

    Today 1.8 million girls are enrolled in school. However, girls represent only 35% of Afghan's total school going population. At the grade 1 level, girls constitute about 40% of the students. This percentage becomes progressively smaller at middle school, at about 34%; and by grade 12, females account for only one-quarter of the students. Girls living in rural areas have significantly less access to schools than those in urban areas.

     According to the commission, the cultural requirement to have female teachers creates a vicious cycle. Girls are not educated due to lack of female teachers, which in turn prevents the development of female teachers to educate the girls. This attitude is deeply entrenched in Afghan society and is unlikely to undergo any radical change in the near future. Women constitute only 28% of existing teachers, and of them, 80% work in urban areas.

    The commission further reports that attacks by insurgents on educational facilities have jumped dramatically in the last few years. In 2007 there were 55 security threats and over 180 attacks carried out on schools, killing 108 people and injuring 154. The first three months of 2008 saw five threats and 24 attacks, with two people killed.

    The situation is particularly critical in the south where the insurgency is strongest. Attacking schools is usually the last step in a long process of intimidation that keeps Afghan children, particularly girls, out of school. Other types of attacks and intimidation techniques include threatening letters, threats of kidnapping, attacks on teachers, intimidation of local officials and attacks on schoolgirls on their way to school, using acid. We saw that on television: little girls scarred by acid.

    Such actions have forced the closing of more than 200 schools in 2007. The primary targets of the attacks, of course, were schools where boys and girls attended classes together or where they shared a building. Security was the number one reason cited by the AIHRC investigation crew when it looked at the allegations of girls being prevented from going to school by relatives.

    Women are also denied basic access to health services. According to the Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission, every 30 minutes in Afghanistan a woman dies during pregnancy or childbirth. That is 60 deaths for every 1,000 live births, which is 60% higher than in the industrial world, and 80% of those deaths are preventable.

    Recent studies by the commission show the reasons women lack access to health care include the traditional ones: the non-existence and lack of health centres, a poor economy, lack of self-sufficiency, lack of participation in their own affairs, lack of attention to their health issues by the families, and domestic violence and illiteracy. According to the studies conducted by the commission, 24.6% of people have no access to acceptable health services, and the majority of them are women. In addition, 54.8% of people cannot use the so-called health centres due to the long distances involved.

    The level of accessibility to health services varies. Women's access to health services is only 5% to 7% in the southwest, and in some districts of central Afghanistan there are no female doctors and no health workers. This situation exists despite national and international laws emphasizing the need for women to access health services.

    The commission also outlined forced marriage as a serious barrier to women's rights in Afghanistan. These marriages come about through various means, including as a way to settle a feud; huge dowries; or threats of intimidation. These marriages can include underage marriages, that is, where a child is forced to marry an older man or where a child is engaged when she is born. Widows are still considered a heritage and are not allowed to marry other men willingly.

    Finally, the Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission reports that violence against women is prevalent. The participation of women in Afghan public life is still relatively low, and the majority of violence against women takes place within the family. According to UNIFEM, 80% of violence against women occurs within their families. Domestic violence is a serious problem, accounting for a third of the total violations against women. Often the violence is so debilitating that women may choose to run away and be put in jail rather than tolerate the abuse.

    Abuse, suicide, domestic violence, forced prostitution, addiction to narcotics, all of these exist in Afghanistan. What are our troops doing there? What is the government covering up? Why can we not hear the truth?

    

    Mr. Speaker, I thank the member for her insight on the conditions that exist over in Afghanistan and for pointing out the fact that this is a terrible tragedy that is happening in the world and a lot of people are suffering because of it.

    The motion before the House is basically pursuant to the defeat of a previous motion indicating that the committee's rights were breached because it did not have access to documents, further stonewalling by the government and it not being able to do its job. That motion was not dealt with. Now we have this opportunity to express more specifically the reason for a public inquiry.

    The Minister of Foreign Affairs just spoke and one of the things that he said to us, in addition to all the terrible things that are going on in Afghanistan, was that we are also trying to prevent possible terrorist attacks against Canada. He also said that the 2005 agreement on Afghan detainees was inadequate. If it was inadequate, does that mean that torture of detainees could have happened?

    Then he said--

    The hon. member for London--Fanshawe.

    Mr. Speaker, it seems to me that there are more questions than answers in all of this. It behooves this Parliament and the Conservative government to answer the questions and be forthright. If detainees are being tortured, we need to know about that. We cannot always depend on the Karzai government or the reports that we hear officially.

    A few days ago. Malalai Joya, a young parliamentarian from Afghanistan, was in Canada. She cannot live in Afghanistan anymore because she had the audacity to speak the truth about what was happening in her parliament and in her country. She asked the people of Canada to take a step back and consider the impact of what is happening to Afghani people. She begged us to do that and we need to do that. To begin with, an inquiry would be an important step.

    Mr. Speaker, at the end of her remark, my colleague asked what are we doing there. We are there to make a difference. She outlined some of the areas where we have made a difference. Forty thousand fewer babies are dying every year because they have basic health care. There are more women in Afghanistan's parliament than there are in Canada's Parliament. Thousands of small businesses have been started, mostly by women. Those are just three areas, and there are more things that we are there to do.

    I have a simple question for her: If Canada and like-minded countries like Canada are not there and cannot be there to help the Afghan people to some prospect of a decent life, then who in her fantasy world would be there?

    Mr. Speaker, I will ignore the tone of that. I find it insulting but of course it was intended to be insulting.

    It is interesting that the Conservatives have the audacity to talk about basic health care when it is very clear that women cannot access basic health care.

    Mr. Karzai just signed another agreement, a law put in place, where women can go nowhere unless they are accompanied by their husbands. They cannot go to the doctor unless the husband says that it is okay.

    In terms of female parliamentarians, there very well may be more in Afghanistan than in Canada, much to our shame, but the reality is that those women cannot speak out. Malalai Joya talked about rape. She talked about the fact that MPs who had the courage to speak out had their children murdered. She talked about the fact that when the son of one of the parliamentarians raped a five-year-old child, he was protected by the Karzai government. For that, she had four attempts on her life. She cannot live in her own country. She cannot stay inside the territory of Afghanistan because she had the courage to speak out.

    That is what happens to women in Afghanistan. In this Parliament when women speak out they are challenged and called what? Insipid, silly, imagination at will?

    Mr. Speaker, today we are debating a motion introduced by our party, the New Democratic Party, to establish a commission of inquiry, pursuant to the Inquiries Act, into the transfer of detainees in Canadian custody during the current conflict in Afghanistan.

    We are focusing on the period between 2001 and 2009. In that period, two governments were in power. It covers a number of years, primarily when the Liberals formed the government and also when the Conservatives governed with a minority in this House.

    First it is important to create the proper context for a debate on torture and examine why it is so important to determine whether our armed forces were involved in the transfer of detainees to an authority, the Afghan government, which may have abused or tortured them. We know that international agreements, primarily the Geneva conventions, prohibit the transfer of a detainee in times of war if there is a risk of torture.

    First, there is simply the human side of this. Torture is unacceptable. Second, it is a problem, because even if we do not think about other people, we must at least think of ourselves. Our own soldiers and members of our armed forces could end up in the same position one day. It would be very hard for us to invoke the Geneva convention if we have a very bad record when it comes to the treatment of prisoners.

    As for the first part, the moral aspect, it is important to put the writings of the current Liberal leader into perspective. When he was in the United States, he had no problem writing a number of justifications for abuse and mistreatment. I would even say that the current Liberal leader, from his exalted position as a professor at Harvard University, became an accomplice to the American government of George W. Bush and Dick Cheney, by giving them the terminology they used to justify torture.

    The Liberal leader took a page from the book of George Orwell, whose Newspeak is all about changing the terminology, when he said that we should no longer talk about “torture”; we should say “enhanced interrogation techniques”. What happened next? We saw the American president, Vice-President Cheney and other government officials say that water boarding could be acceptable. The former Liberal leader established some criteria. There should not be permanent damage, harm to physical health, and so on.

    When someone does not have a moral GPS, they write things like that, and that is unfortunately the case with the Liberal leader.

    Torture is torture, period. But it had become a sort of touchstone. Were we tough enough to live in a world where we knew that there was a vast terrorist plot to destabilize our governments? I would venture to say that the thing that has most destabilized our governments is the loss of our moral authority in the world, because our governments, our democracies, are based on values, and one of our values is that we do not tolerate torture and we cannot outsource torture. We cannot leave it to someone else to have it done.

    In this case, there are several different versions and sometimes different versions from the same person. The current Minister of National Defence has contradicted himself so much in recent weeks that a commission of inquiry is needed to shed light on this issue.

    At one point, the Minister of National Defence said one thing in this House and, later the same day, stood in the corridor behind us and said the opposite for the television news. The public has the right to know two things. First, are torture and the transfer of detainees to people who might torture them still prohibited under Canadian law? Second, will the government comply with international law, specifically the Geneva convention? If so, then we have the right to know what happened in Afghanistan.

    Instead of coming clean and admitting that, given the contradictory versions, the best thing to do was to shed some light on this disturbing matter, we heard personal attacks levelled against very credible people of the highest calibre. We were very surprised to hear the government attacking Mr. Colvin. We will have the opportunity to see what the Conservatives do with people who say the opposite of what they want to hear. Putting his own career on the line, of course, he had the courage to write down repeatedly that he was very worried because, according to all available information, it appeared that people were being tortured in Afghan prisons.

    No, he was not present during any torture sessions, otherwise, things would be altogether different. The Conservatives keep saying that he did not witness any torture himself. Of course he did not see any, as if a Canadian official would stay and watch. However, according to all the available information, he knew torture was taking place. He therefore wrote about it and appeared here.

    He is being mercilessly attacked by the Minister of National Defence. What a shame. The Conservatives had just appointed the same Mr. Colvin to a very important strategic intelligence position in the United States. And now they are telling us that he has no credibility and we should not believe a word he says. No problem. They simply found another senior Canadian diplomat and dragged him by the scruff of the neck before the parliamentary committee. It was something to see. That other diplomat knew what the government expected of him, but he nevertheless managed to say that Mr. Colvin's concerns were valid and well founded.

    An authority was set up to deal with such matters. That authority within the Canadian armed forces is the Military Police Complaints Commission. In accordance with an act of Parliament, it has a very serious responsibility to keep a critical eye on what our soldiers are doing and to make sure that their actions obey the rules governing ethical conduct in time of war. So what happened? The government engaged in systematic obstruction to the point that the chair of the Military Police Complaints Commission, which examines the actions of our armed forces, has been forced to suspend the commission's work. But are they ashamed of that? Not at all. What are they doing now? They are saying that he was the one who decided to suspend the hearings. He explained that he could no longer hold hearings because he was being blocked at every turn.

    What happened to the noted scientist responsible for nuclear safety who sounded the alarm by saying that there was going to be a shortage of isotopes? They fired her. What happened to the person in charge of investigations at the Competition Bureau who revealed what was going on in the oil industry? They fired her. Last week, the person responsible for the Royal Canadian Mounted Police's ethics review dared to say things that the government did not want to hear. They fired him. That is how the Conservatives have operated time after time. Anytime upright people dare to say what the Conservatives do not want to hear, they try to fire them. They did the same thing with Mr. Page, the Parliamentary Budget Officer, who dared to tell the truth and who was always right.

    In closing, for all of these reasons, the only way to be sure of anything is to hold a proper public inquiry. That is how we will find out who is telling the truth—the Minister of National Defence or other very credible individuals. I am eager to find out.

    

    Mr. Speaker, I have a fairly simple question for my hon. colleague. He mentioned that was had heard at committee were personal attacks against people of the highest credibility and character. I wonder if he would comment on the comments from across the floor, that the generals were morally weak and legally flimsy, and that General Gauthier could be characterized as a war criminal.

    Mr. Speaker, just so that no one thinks for one second that any one on this side said any of that, I intend to make that point perfectly clear from the outset.

    With regard to the varying versions, I will stick with Mr. Colvin. He is one of the most important members of our foreign service who is so credible and respected that the Conservatives promoted him to the top job in Washington, and then the weakling Minister of National Defence attacked him unjustifiably and unacceptably because he dared tell the truth and tell the Conservatives something they did not want to hear.

    If they have nothing to hide, let them call a commission of inquiry.

    Mr. Speaker, this morning the member for Toronto Centre spoke on behalf of the Liberal Party and reminded the House that, in fact, it was the Liberal government that got involved in Afghanistan after 9/11, so that any inquiry period that we would be dealing with here would be starting in 2001, up to the current period, covering two successive governments.

    So, the question that I would have is, why would the Conservatives be so reluctant to have an inquiry when the other half of the equation, being the former government that was in power for half of the time, is more than willing to agree to the inquiry?

    Mr. Speaker, as far as we are concerned, the only way to see clear in this file is to conduct a full commission of inquiry precisely because of the fact that there are interests on that side of the House who are trying to hide what has happened for the past four years.

    And of course, with regard to the Liberals, their lack of a moral compass is something that will come back to haunt them. Their current leader, it should be borne in mind, not only used his important and august function at Harvard University to say that Canada was a weakling for not getting involved in the war in Iraq, and we all know how well that turned out, but he also went after Canada for not understanding that basically, as long as we do not call torture torture, we can torture.

    He used his position at Harvard to write learned papers to provide Dick Cheney and George W. Bush with the terminology, the Orwellesque terminology for torture. It was going to be enhanced interrogation techniques.

    That is exactly what the Geneva accord provides, that we are not allowed to torture, but we are also not allowed to transfer to somebody else who is going to torture. If we are not allowed to torture directly, we certainly cannot do it indirectly. We are not allowed to subcontract the torture.

     That is what the allegations are from very credible people, people who are so credible that the Conservatives named them to the highest position of intelligence gathering in the United States of America at our embassy. That is why they have something to hide. They do not want those emails to be made public. They do not want the Canadian public to know.

    However, contrary to the Liberal leader and contrary to the Conservatives, the Canadian public has a strong moral compass. Canadians will continue to demand that this House do the right thing and force the holding of a commission of inquiry, so that they will know what actually happened.

    Mr. Speaker, I listened closely to the speech by the hon. member for Outremont regarding the motion on the issue of torture in Afghan prisons. I have a quick question for him. Of course he has already been asked the question, but I will rephrase it to give him a chance to express some other points.

    Why is the Conservative government refusing to shed light on torture in Afghan prisons?

    Mr. Speaker, it is simply because they have a guilty conscience. They have something to hide.

    The successive contradictory versions from the weakling Minister of National Defence cannot all be true. He contradicts himself from one day to the next. We could conclude that he misled the House with one version or another. While we are at it, if the government is above reproach and have nothing to hide, let us have a commission of inquiry on what really happened and let the public decide.

    Do you know what? That is what they are afraid of; being judged by the public. That is why they have the nerve to use our armed forces as a moral guarantor. How scandalous. How shameful. How sad.

    Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to participate in this debate. I want to say first of all that I support the motion before the House.

    This debate has absolutely nothing to do with the support of Canadian soldiers in the field. Having been to Afghanistan on two occasions, I can say that they are of the highest quality, the highest standards, and that our men and women deserve and I know receive the support of all members in this House.

    The issue is about the conduct of the Government of Canada. It is about the direction that the government is going in. As the vice-chair of both the defence committee and the Afghan committee, I find it very troubling that we are not able to have the documentation that we need in order to do our job. Apparently others have that right, whether they be former generals or people in the press, but the members of the committee who are charged with the responsibility of looking into these issues, into these allegations, do not have the documentation.

    This Parliament passed a resolution in 2008, and I want to read one part of it to the House:

    That is what this House passed and members on the other side voted for that. That is our moral responsibility and, indeed, our legal responsibility, both under the Geneva Convention and the articles of war.

    We have heard from the other side that somehow while the 2005 agreement was clearly not adequate, the Conservatives brought in a tougher one later on. Nobody is disputing that. The question is, from the generals who appeared before us, Mr. Mulroney and others, that we really did not know what we were getting into in 2005, but clearly if there was a problem, why did the government across the way decide to change the agreement, to amend the agreement? If there was no abuse, and no one can categorically say that there was not, then why did we have to amend it? We had to amend it because obviously there were issues out there.

    In one of these redacted documents, and again when we are reading something with all this black in it, it is very difficult, one of the memos from Mr. Colvin's email which was copied to Mr. Mulroney, Colleen Swords and others, and I do not even know the date because unfortunately it is blacked out, under 19 it says:

    And it goes on. From that, clearly there is either something to hide or the fact is that we did not know what we were transferring, but certainly the International Red Cross did. Certainly, the Americans did and others did. I am sure that pressure was brought to bear and is why the government decided to change the agreement.

    The agreement that was entered into in 2005 was to meet the requirements we thought of at the time. Clearly, there were allegations out there, these allegations made by Mr. Colvin and others. Mr. Colvin is a respected public servant. The generals before us are all well respected. No one questions that.

    The questions are, what did the government know, what information did it have, and what did it do with that information when it received it? If the government has nothing to hide, then why does it not allow a full public inquiry? That would also be very helpful, both to those who have come forward on both sides of this issue and also because we as a committee, and I think this is very important, are constrained in our ability to seek the answers because first, we do not have the documentation, and second, we have seven minutes in which to ask questions. It is pretty hard to get the question and answer in seven minutes. I know that is a difficult situation at least for members.

    Maybe, on the other side, some members there have seen these documents in their entirety. They claim they have not, but at this point we say a public inquiry because we are not able to function. In fact, it seems like a Hollywood backdrop. Witnesses come in and certain members are briefed on this information who come before the committee. The members try their best, but at the end of the day, we do not have the information we need. So this is also a moral issue.

    We have a moral obligation to Canadians to ensure that we are extremely above board. The government, if it were needing to hide anything, would certainly makes these documents available, certainly to members of the committee, but also would be forthright in saying there is a conflict here. We have a situation where a former defence minister indicated he knew nothing that happened and yet 19 memos were sent to the government indicating that there were concerns of torture.

    Then we have the current minister who has changed his mind from time to time depending on the situation. My mother used to say “never be a prevaricator of the truth because you will have to remember what you said or not said at some point”. It is better to simply tell the truth right up front. Unfortunately, we do not seem to be able to get the answers we need. Is the government covering up? One would assume, if members are not prepared to release the documentation, if they are not prepared to be forthright, that is the only conclusion one can come to.

    On the issue of international responsibilities, our soldiers are performing extremely well in the field. We know they are taught very strongly about what to do when they have a prisoner. So there are concerns when these people are turned over to Afghan jails. No one is suggesting that Afghan jails are top notch. In fact, they are a disaster. We know they are a disaster and that is why on at least three occasions the transfers were stopped. If they were not stopped then everything would have been fine. But clearly they were stopped because there were these allegations out there. I find it hard to believe, as a member of Parliament, that the government did not know because otherwise it would not have stopped something if everything was fine.

    On this side of the House we listen when government members speak. On that side of the House we hear catcalls. If we really want to have a thorough and full debate, then they should listen, even if they do not like it. At committee we try to extend the same courtesy across the aisle, but the government is stonewalling. We saw what happened at the Military Police Complaints Commission, another example of where it was thwarted from doing its job because of the situation.

     I should point out that my friend and colleague, the member for Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, will be splitting time with me.

    I want to point out that the special committee on Afghanistan is not able to do its job because it does not have the tools to do it. Unfortunately, although everyone on the committee certainly has good intentions, they cannot do that. So the issue now comes down to certain people saying one thing, certain people saying another thing. We need a full public inquiry, where the documentation can be provided, where we can actually get the answers and not in seven minutes, so we can move forward on this issue.

    Again, I refer to the resolution that Parliament supported. It referred to protecting the rights of detainees. We have to walk the talk. We cannot pass a resolution and then ignore what is in the resolution. We have a responsibility and I would suggest that if the government has nothing to hide, call a public inquiry. Let us find out the real facts and then not only will Parliament know but Canadians will know.

    Mr. Speaker, the member for Toronto Centre, when he spoke, talked about the British and the United States governments as two governments that actually have a process to deal with the treatment of prisoners. I would like to ask the member, does he feel that the process of having an inquiry would actually improve the public policy?

    Mr. Speaker, we are in the business of good public policy, so I would suggest to the member and members of the House that it would in fact enhance good public policy. It is important that we look at all of these facts in a very clear way. The only reason, by the way, we are calling for a public inquiry, why we are supporting the motion, is because the special committee on Afghanistan cannot get to the bottom of it because of redacted documents, because of the failure to really do the probing. From our standpoint, I think the result would be what the member suggests.

    Mr. Speaker, I find the member's statements troubling. In fact, I find a number of the statements made by the official opposition on this issue to be really reprehensible and troubling.

    The member specifically said that he did not have enough evidence. Three top army generals sat before the member and provided evidence. General Hillier, General Gauthier and General Fraser sat before the member and provided evidence refuting any testimony that there had ever been any indication of torture of detainees turned over by the Canadian Forces.

    What was the member's response to that? He said, “We don't know who to believe. I do not know whether to believe these three generals who are Canadian heroes or not”. That was the statement made by the member and it is reprehensible. He should stand in his place and apologize for questioning their comments.

    Mr. Speaker, what I find reprehensible is that someone in the peanut gallery would stand and not only makes accusations that are not correct but if the member had bothered to listen he would have heard, one, my support for the troops and, two, support for the generals.

    The fact is that the crowd over there always likes to stand behind supporting the armed forces. They do not have a monopoly on support for the armed forces any more than we do. The should get with the program and stop trying to change the channel. The channel is their competence and their watch that we are looking at, not the generals and not our soldiers in the field. They should not try to pull that nonsense in here.

    Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the hon. member who has experience on the defence committee. I would ask him to remind us all what the role is of parliamentarians in overseeing generals and the Canadian armed forces.

    Mr. Speaker, we are obviously in the business of public policy and, ultimately, the armed forces is responsible to government. It is the government that dictates policy.

    What we are looking at, as my colleague knows, is the policy of the government, not the actions of our soldiers. Our soldiers respond to policy that is derived from government. If the government does not have anything to hide, it should be able to do so. Our soldiers carry out their responsibilities based on government policy.

    Mr. Speaker, the Human Rights Watch, which is an internationally recognized body, takes an interest in issues of human rights throughout the world. It has also supported the call for an independent inquiry. Does the member think this kind of call affects the international reputation of Canada if we do not have one?

    Mr. Speaker, our central tenet for foreign policy has always been human rights and the protection of the individual. I would certainly concur with my colleague's comments. They are well-founded and I think would have an effect on a country that is known for both its support of human rights historically and the security of the individual.

    Mr. Speaker, today the House is debating a motion calling for a public inquiry into the situation surrounding Afghan detainees.

    What has transpired since this special committee was created to look into this has not been a good reflection on Parliament, which is unfortunate. The biggest part of that has to do with documents and the fact that the documents were available to the witnesses who appeared before the committee but not to the committee members themselves.

    There also are some questions about whether t there was other evidence. I think I have seen enough indications that we have had questions of fact being challenged and disagreement. We have also had some testimony at committee, even from General Hillier himself, that if we were to ask all of the detainees whether or not they had been abused while in detention, probably half of them would say yes. S there have been some questions.

    Earlier today, the Minister of Foreign Affairs rose in the House to address this motion. He started off by saying that we had to understand that being in the military theatre is a difficult and complex environment. He also said that military personnel were putting their lives in danger, that that they were protecting the public in Afghanistan from danger and that they were there to prevent possible terrorist attacks from occurring even in Canada.

    He finally concluded that the 2005 agreement on the transfer of detainees was inadequate and, therefore, as a consequence, on May 3, 2007, another agreement was struck which was more robust.

    It begs the question that if the 2005 agreement with regard to the rules of transferring detainees was inadequate, does that mean there is a possibility that torture may have taken place? Does that mean that the circumstances were such that, as is being alleged by so many other people who have not appeared before the committee, there were incidents of torture?

    These are significant questions. I understand we will move to another stage, so when I complete my comments at the end of question period, I will add more on those things.

    The member for Mississauga South will have seven minutes remaining when we return to this matter.

    Mr. Speaker, I rise in the House today to pay tribute to the hard-working people of Calgary East who have elected me to represent them in Parliament for the last 12 years.

    My riding exemplifies the virtues of Canada's multicultural mosaic. It is home to colourful and welcoming neighbourhoods, sprawling green spaces and many large businesses that proudly employ people from all over the city and the region. It is no surprise that close to 50 new Canadian citizens every month choose to settle down in the welcoming communities that make up Calgary East.

    Like many Canadians, the residents of Calgary East too have faced the brunt of the economic downturn. However, I am proud to say that in these tough times they are certainly doing their part to help pull themselves and their country out of the recession.

    I am privileged to represent the people in the riding of Calgary East and look forward to continuing to serve them as their Conservative member of Parliament.

    Mr. Speaker, Nova Scotia recently lost one of its finest citizens and one of its leading fire chiefs when Windsor Fire Department chief, Fred Fox, passed away.

    A lifelong resident of Windsor, Fred joined the fire department in 1971. At the time of his passing, he was serving in his 20th year as fire chief and 38th year as a member of the department.

    Chief Fox was instrumental in the development of the Fire Service Association of Nova Scotia, which recently recognized him with a lifetime honorary membership. He was the Nova Scotia director to the Maritime Fire Chiefs Association for several years and a member of the Canadian Association of Fire Chiefs, having served as Nova Scotia's director to the federal association.

    Volunteer firefighters possess a commitment and generosity to their communities, which Chief Fox exemplified with his skill and caring service to his community. His death is an enormous loss to the department and to the entire community he served.

    I offer my deepest sympathy to his wife Prudy, son Gregory, daughter Melissa and to all of their extended family. Fred was a great Canadian.

    Mr. Speaker, the 17th Annual Aboriginal Achievement Awards will be held on March 26. I was proud to learn that a resident of my riding, Ms. Édith Cloutier, will receive the public service award.

    Ms. Cloutier knows very well the duality of a mixed heritage as her mother was Algonquin and her father was a Quebecker.When only 23 years old, she became the executive director of the Val-d'Or Native Friendship Centre, which seeks to improve the lives of urban aboriginal people and relations between aboriginal and non-aboriginal peoples.

    With her exceptional administrative talents, Édith Cloutier has made the Val d'Or Friendship Centre one of the most important and dynamic of the hundred such centres in Canada.

    Ms. Cloutier has received many other awards in addition to this one. She became a Chevalier de l'Ordre national du Québec in 2006.

    Congratulations Ms. Cloutier.

    Mr. Speaker, it is in this season of giving that we are offered an opportunity to pause and reflect on the past year's events, difficulties and accomplishments. It is in this spirit that I acknowledge the great privilege it has been to serve the constituents of Niagara in this my first year in office.

    This past year has been extremely difficult for many regions across Canada and the Niagara region is no different. I say with great pride that there is something very special in the resiliency of the hard-working people of my riding. Even when things seemed to be getting worse, I was inspired and amazed by the dedication and commitment of individuals and community groups to those hardest hit.

    I would like to take this opportunity to thank everyone who over this holiday season will take the time to help those experiencing job loss and financial hardship. It is in the acts of giving that we show the true spirit of the season and, more important, demonstrate the year-round spirit of the constituents of Niagara.

    Finally, I would like to wish all Niagarans a safe and joyous holiday season and a sincere desire for all of us to have a happy and prosperous new year.

    Mr. Speaker, worldwide, more than 25 million people have died since the start of the AIDS pandemic in 1981. My parents were two of those individuals.

    Today, one in every 584 people in Canada is HIV positive. Forty-five hundred new HIV infections are being reported each year. Up to 30% of those who are infected are unaware that they carry the virus.

    To stop the rate of new infections, we must strengthen prevention, offer accessible programs, particularly for young people, improve point of care testing for HIV and focus on populations where HIV is increasing.

    In my community, Daryle Roberts, Karen Alexander and the hard-working team at the Living Positive Resource Centre continue to bring together all levels of government with front-line AIDS workers and individuals living with HIV. By understanding the challenges and needs of those whose lives are impacted by HIV and AIDS, we are improving their quality of life and reducing the stigma and discrimination they face.

    Mr. Speaker, 20 years after 14 young women were killed at École Polytechnique, the safety and status of women in this country are at risk in a manner unprecedented in years.

    The government has failed to take action to address the real issues of concern for violence against women. The mandatory minimums are not enough. More jails are not the answer, but that is what the minister stands for.

    What is clear is there is no one in the government prepared to advocate on behalf of women. We need a national violence prevention strategy. We need a national investigation into the cases of more than 520 missing and murdered aboriginal women and girls. We need safe and affordable housing available.

    What we do not need is to have the Minister of State for the Status of Women showcasing the member for Portage—Lisgar who is looking to dismantle the gun registry at the École Polytechnique memorial honouring the memory of the 14 slain women.

    Enough is enough. We need a government to stand for the safety and security of the women of Canada.

    Mr. Speaker, on November 20 a campaign was started in Winnipeg to support our troops in Afghanistan. It is not about the latest weapons or armoured vehicles. It is about pillows.

    This campaign was created as a memorial to Corporal James Hayward Arnal, a 25-year-old resident of Saint Boniface who was killed on July 18, 2008 while serving in Afghanistan.

     His passing deeply touched my community and all who knew him. I had worked alongside his father for many years as his partner on the Winnipeg Police Service and I know just how terribly his family misses him.

    Corporal Arnal, who was the 88th Canadian soldier killed in the Afghan conflict, kept a travel-size pillow with him throughout his mission.

    The goal of the campaign is to provide a similar travel-size pillow to each Canadian soldier serving in Afghanistan. The first shipment will be accompanied by Corporal Arnal's mother, Wendy Hayward, to Trenton, Ontario in December. The pillows will be shipped from there to Afghanistan in time for Christmas.

    Donations can be made online at pillowsfortroops.com. Please help to make our Canadian heroes a little more comfortable as they fight to help keep us all safer.

    Mr. Speaker, on November 11, the Bridgestone company of Joliette won a gold medal at the best business practices show, an event organized by the Mouvement québécois de la qualité to showcase projects that improve productivity.

    The Joliette company was competing against 37 other teams from 34 different corporations. Bridgestone presented two projects: the first, Six Sigma, to improve quality; the second, known by the Japanese name of suru-raku, is an approach that encourages the standardization of all activities. Fresh from this success, the team is going to Japan in April 2010 and it plans to take top honours at that event.

    The company recently announced an investment of $40 million in the Joliette plant, including the Quebec government contribution of $4.8 million. The federal government contributed absolutely nothing. But let us look on the bright side. My Bloc Québécois colleagues and I congratulate the company on its success, which mirrors the dynamism of the Lanaudière region, and the trust it places in its employees.

    Mr. Speaker, today, December 1, marks the 21st commemoration of World AIDS Day. On this day communities in Canada and around the world honour those who have died from this disease and those who continue to live with the effects of HIV-AIDS.

    Despite significant advances in medical treatment, there are still no cures or vaccines to prevent the spread of HIV.

    Our government remains committed to a comprehensive long-term approach to HIV and AIDS in Canada and globally. Under the federal initiative to address HIV and AIDS in Canada, we are working in partnership with the provinces and territories, community-based organizations and others to prevent the spread of HIV, promote awareness and provide care and support to people living with and affected by HIV and AIDS.

    This government's international efforts to address HIV and AIDS continue to be based on sound public health evidence, built on a foundation of human rights, gender equality and the protection of the rights of children and other vulnerable groups.

    In closing, I ask everyone to join me today in wearing a red ribbon to raise awareness and to show support for those living with or affected by HIV and AIDS.

    Mr. Speaker, I rise today to highlight the return to Earth of my friend, astronaut Robert Thirsk, who spent six months on the International Space Station. That is quite a trip.

    Robert returned to Earth this morning, gently touching down in Kazakhstan.

    During his mission he conducted many scientific experiments while helping to build the station. His mission was marked by three important firsts for Canada. He was the first Canadian to fly on the Russian Soyuz rocket. He spent six months in orbit, the longest stay for a Canadian in space. On two occasions he met up with visiting Canadians Julie Payette and Guy Laliberté.

    Robert is a fine example not only for the scientific community, but also for our youth. I hope that many young Canadians will be inspired by his experience and follow in his footsteps, thus helping Canada become a world leader.

    To my long-time friend Robert, congratulations. You have made Canada proud.

    Mr. Speaker, exactly one year ago, on December 1, 2008, the leaders of the Liberal Party, the Bloc Québécois and the NDP signed a shocking agreement aimed at bringing down a government that was democratically elected less than two months earlier in order to form a coalition.

    Even the Bloc, a sovereignist party, was part of that agreement. A sovereignist party governing our country? Seriously!

    The opposition parties dreamed of taking power without an election. How scandalous! It came as no surprise that Canadians from coast to coast to coast were shocked by this secret, undemocratic political scheme. Quebeckers and Canadians want action, not partisanship.

    Our government cares about Quebeckers and Canadians. It will continue to implement Canada's economic action plan and focus on the economy.

    Mr. Speaker, in this place which so often generates more heat than light, I want to pay tribute to the thousands of Canadians who act where government fails. One area where this is painfully obvious is in our response to HIV-AIDS.

    Organizations such as the Hamilton AIDS Network are doing incredible work in preventing HIV transmission, and recognizing and responding to the stigma and challenges posed by HIV-AIDS. But, instead of partnering with NGOs on their essential programs, the government is forcing them to do more with less.

    The same is true for the Grandmothers to Grandmothers Campaign that was launched by the Stephen Lewis Foundation. Volunteers are dedicating themselves to ensuring that whether one lives or dies with HIV is not determined by one's race, gender or citizenship.

    The government could so easily support these efforts by passing the NDP's Bill C-393, but instead, it puts the needs of big pharma ahead of the need to win the battle against AIDS in the global human family.

    On this World AIDS Day, I want to salute the Hamilton AIDS Network and the Grandmothers of Steel for their compassion and commitment. I want to challenge the government to support their efforts with resources instead of just rhetoric.

    Mr. Speaker, the Liberal Party has been caught red-handed misleading Canadians about its record on Israel. When the member for Mount Royal told the House that the Israeli government asked Canada to remain at the Durban 1 conference, most journalists accepted the Liberal talking point at face value. They can no longer.

    Alan Baker, the man who led Israel's delegation at Durban and Israel's former ambassador to Canada, today contradicted the member for Mount Royal's claims. He told the National Post, “We tried to get the Canadians to walk out”.

    Liberal MPs have marched under the flags of terrorist organizations such as Hezbollah, prompting rebukes from the Israeli government. Liberals misled the House about being asked to stay at Durban.

    Will the Liberals apologize for misleading Canadians? Will they apologize for deserting Israel during her time of need?

    Mr. Speaker, today, female members of the three opposition parties attended a parallel event protesting the government's position on violence against women to commemorate the deaths of 14 young women at the École polytechnique de Montréal who were murdered with a long gun on December 6, 1989.

    We were stunned and outraged to see that at the government's own commemorative ceremony, which also took place this morning, the member who introduced Bill C-391, which would exclude long guns from the firearms registry, was beside the Minister for the Status of Women.

    This is especially disturbing because 88% of women killed with guns are shot with handguns or rifles. If violence against women is to finally stop, the duty to remember must translate into real action. That is why Bill C-391 must be rejected.

    Mr. Speaker, today is World AIDS Day.

    Seven thousand five hundred people will be infected with HIV, and five thousand five hundred will die of AIDS. Every day, more new infections occur than new people receive treatment.

    Highly active antiretroviral therapy with a full array of contraceptive options would halt the pandemic's progress in its steps, but only if AIDS is not treated in isolation. To accomplish this, maternal care, infant care, HIV-AIDS treatment, and tuberculosis management must be integrated. This means the international community must invest in primary health care systems, health care workers, diagnostics, meds, clean water and power. Doing this would enable us to arrest the pandemic and treat 85% of the people who walk through a clinic's door.

    Canada is hosting the G8 summit in 2010. Let us put primary health care at the top of the agenda, for this is the most effective way to save the lives of millions of people who die every year from entirely preventable causes.

    Mr. Speaker, I rise to mark the one year anniversary of the failed attempt by the Liberal Party to ignore the democratic results of last year's election.

    As members may remember, the Liberal Party entered into a coalition, promising a blank cheque to the NDP and a veto on all legislation to the Bloc.

    The Liberal leader was clear. He happily signed on to the coalition and later told the nation that he would be prepared to lead it. Since then, the Liberal leader has threatened an unnecessary and unwanted election.

    Meanwhile, our government is taking real action with Canada's economic action plan, delivering results for Canadian families and businesses during the global recession.

    A year ago the Liberals made it clear that they would do anything to take power, so we should not be surprised when they politicize everything from our soldiers to our infrastructure investments.

    They have tried it once and they will try it again because we know the Liberal leader is not in it for Canadians. He is just in it for himself.

    Mr. Speaker, yesterday, the Minister of National Defence said that the government was refusing to disclose evidence of torture in Afghanistan because of the Canada Evidence Act, but today the Minister of Foreign Affairs said that some documents will be made public. Two days, two different stories.

    What guarantee can the government give Canadians that all the documents will be made public without being censored?

    Mr. Speaker, the government has been entirely clear. We will continue to provide all legally available information.

    There are long-standing practices not just of this government but of other governments, and even mandatory legal requirements, that we will continue to follow. It is a responsibility that those of us on this side of the House take seriously because the number one priority must be the safety and the security of our men and women in uniform.

    Mr. Speaker, last week in his testimony, General Gauthier said that he hoped Parliament would have access to the documents on this question. It still has not happened.

    After weeks of withholding evidence, how are Canadians now supposed to believe that the government will provide full and uncensored documents to the parliamentary committee so that it can get at the truth of this matter?

    Mr. Speaker, it is interesting that the leader of the Liberal Party stands in his place and characterizes remarks made by General Gauthier.

    It was his own defence critic, the member for Vancouver South, who called General Gauthier's comments before the committee morally weak and legally flimsy.

    The general is a Canadian hero. He is a Canadian hero who spent 36 years in uniform, and that is the kind of respect he gets from the Liberal Party and the official spokesman for the Leader of the Opposition. It is shameful.

    Mr. Speaker, our side of the House did no such thing. We hold General Gauthier in the highest respect.

    The issue here is that all of the evidence in this affair, including that handed over to the Military Police Complaints Commission, was so heavily redacted as to be useless.

    The versions of Richard Colvin's memos that were leaked to journalists were so redacted as to be useless.

    We need to get to the bottom of this. Why will the government not accept that we need a judge, an independent inquiry, and full access to the documents so that we can finally get to the bottom of this affair?

    Mr. Speaker, the leader of the Liberal Party says one thing but the facts suggest something else.

    His defence critic said that this general, this Canadian war hero, was weak and flimsy. And look at what else he said. When he was outside the House of Commons yesterday after question period, when asked if he had characterized the general's remarks that way, what did he say? “Absolutely”.

    Shame on him. Shame on the Liberal Party.

    Mr. Speaker, I am again trying to get an answer to a simple question from the government.

    One of the senior officials at the Department of Foreign Affairs, in describing how the department went about looking at allegations of torture, said:

    I would like to ask the minister, is that still the policy of the Government of Canada with respect to allegations of torture?

    Mr. Speaker, Mr. David Mulroney, the senior civil servant in charge of the mission, confirmed what we have said all along.

     The enhanced arrangement now allows for greater monitoring. That was in place two and a half years ago; unannounced monitoring, a more rigorous ability to have Canadian eyes on information inside the prisons to follow Canadian transferred detainees. If credible allegations have arisen, as was again confirmed, the Afghan sovereign government will do the follow-up with our assistance.

    We also notify the ICRC and the Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission.

    Our officials can visit prisons unannounced at any time. These are great improvements from the previous arrangement we inherited. This was confirmed by both the bureaucrats and military who testified last week.

    Mr. Speaker, the problem we have with the government's answers is that it says that we do not have access to credible information from someone like Mr. Colvin and then says, on the contrary, that Mr. Colvin did not have all the facts.

    The problem is that the government did not look for the facts. The government did not try to get to the truth.

    That is why we will ask again: why not hold an inquiry to get to the truth of the matter?

    Mr. Speaker, the problem with the member opposite's sanctimonious lectures in this place is that they are really not consistent.

    In fact, what we do is to act upon the advice of senior members of the public service, those who were in charge of the mission at the time. We act upon the advice that we receive from commanders in the field, people like generals Hillier, Fraser and Gauthier, who were there during the time in question. We receive that advice. We obviously take that advice and make decisions to support the ongoing mission in Afghanistan.

    The hon. member cannot have it both ways. He cannot accuse the government; he cannot dismiss the government's position, knowing we took it from that source.

    Mr. Speaker, according to a joint study by Le Devoir and the Pembina Institute, action taken by Ontario, British Columbia and Quebec to significantly reduce greenhouse gas emissions ensures that, if the government maintains its flawed greenhouse gas reduction plan, Alberta will be able to increase its emissions without penalty.

    Will the government admit that its climate change plan is tailor-made for Alberta?

    Mr. Speaker, we are committed to doing our part to fight global warming, to fight climate change. We are committed to taking real action on an international level. We are working in concert with our friends in the Obama administration to have a real and meaningful plan to take a bite out of the carbon emissions in Canada. We are going to continue to do that at Copenhagen and to work constructively with our international partners to get every major emitter on board.

    Mr. Speaker, with 2006 as the reference year, the government is undermining all the efforts made by Quebec since 1990 to reduce greenhouse gas emissions, particularly those by the pulp and paper and aluminum industries.

    Does the government realize that by using 2006 as the reference year, rather than 1990, it gives an advantages to its friends in the oil sector, who have done nothing to reduce their greenhouse gas emissions since 1990?

    Mr. Speaker, that is completely false and we are pleased that the Obama administration's approach is similar to ours. Our two economies are integrated. There will be a North American approach.

    I would remind the member opposite that, in 2007, the federal government transferred $350 million to the Quebec government. Premier Charest himself stated that this would help Quebec achieve its goals.

    That is what I call results.

    Mr. Speaker, by choosing 2006 as the reference year, the government is ignoring the efforts Quebec companies have been making since 1990: reductions of 41% for the paper industry, reductions of 22% for the manufacturing industry, and reductions of 15% for the aluminum industry. Furthermore, it will be harder for these industries to achieve objectives using 2006 as the base year since, as companies get closer to zero emissions, it becomes more expensive and technically harder.

    Does the government realize that it is penalizing Quebec companies that have made efforts, and is rewarding the oil companies in the west that have increased their emissions?

    Mr. Speaker, the government's plan is quite clear, and that is to search out a binding international agreement at Copenhagen, and from there, to ensure that we have, on a harmonized basis, continental targets and continental rules and regulations with respect to a cap and trade system.

    The United States president last week announced a reduction target of minus 17% by 2020 from a 2005 base. The Canadian policy for the last two years has been minus 20% by 2020 from a 2006 base.

    These are virtually identical, and we will make whatever minor adjustments are necessary to make them absolutely identical with the same baseline.

    Mr. Speaker, not only is Quebec being penalized by the choice of 2006 as the reference year, but it could also be the first to pay for this government's inaction, since it exports the most to Europe.

    Does the government realize that if Europe follows through on its carbon tax threats for offending countries, Quebec will be paying for Alberta?

    Mr. Speaker, let us talk about Europe. It is exactly a year ago today that the Bloc, the NDP, and the Liberals, as coalition partners, voted and brought in a coalition accord. That accord, of course, called for a North American cap and trade system.

    Since that time, there has been a bit of confusion among the coalition partners. The Bloc and the NDP still search out European targets for Canada. The Liberals seem the most confused. They talk about North American targets, they vote for European targets, but at the end of the day, they brought in a policy last week that has no targets.

    Mr. Speaker, the Conservatives' stonewalling of the Military Police Complaints Commission is continuing.

     It was not enough that for 21 months they would not support the handing over of documents and records. It was not enough that they intimidated witnesses with the possibility of jail time. Now they are refusing to release and make available to the commission legally subpoenaed documents.

    What is going on here? Does the Conservative government believe that somehow the commission is working in league with the Taliban? Is that what we are going to hear next?

    Mr. Speaker, absolutely not. What we will hear is that this government will continue, as it has in the past, to provide all information, all documents that are legally available to be provided. There has been a long-standing practice not just with this government but with previous governments in this regard, and even mandatory legal requirements that are imposed on the public service and those of us in government.

    It is a responsibility we take incredibly seriously. Our number one priority is to protect the operational security of our men and women in uniform and that will continue to be our priority.

    Mr. Speaker, the government has made a lot of promises about transparency that it has simply never kept, whether to do with the commission or to do with the parliamentary committee, which has asked for documents, as it has every right to do.

    The government is not respecting that right. It is trying to intimidate witnesses from testifying. It is selectively leaking to certain journalists the supposedly secret documents that have to be protected, but not to the processes that are established here in the House of Commons.

    Why will the government not simply support a public inquiry? This is why we need a public inquiry. There is a vote today on this. Is the government going to vote against making the truth—

    The hon. Minister of Transport.

    Mr. Speaker, the committee has had the opportunity to hear from public servants, from senior public servants. It has had the opportunity to hear from three Canadian heroes, three generals who have worked in this regard on behalf of our men and women in uniform, on behalf of their country. What we have seen at the committee is that there has never been a confirmed case of the torture of a transferred Taliban captive.

    Those are the facts and it is important that those not be left out in this regard.

    Mr. Speaker, one of those generals said that the documents should be made available. The government should follow that advice.

    If the Conservatives have nothing to hide, then what they should do is launch a public inquiry, as we have requested.

    We would like to know whether the government's policy is to ignore its own written reports on torture, without investigating or doing anything. We would also like to know which ministers were in the loop. Was the Prime Minister aware of torture cases? Will the government abide by a majority vote in the House to launch a public inquiry, yes or no?

    Mr. Speaker, when this government gets credible, substantiated evidence with respect to this issue, we have acted. We have acted in the past.

    What we have done is to have sought a prisoner transfer agreement. We have had enhanced monitoring. We have seen a significant effort on behalf of Canadian public servants and on behalf of the men and women in uniform to accept their responsibilities and to do their jobs. There has been no specific allegation from anyone that they have not done that.

    Mr. Speaker, the government ignored reports on torture in Afghan jails from the U.S. state department, the UN human rights commissioner, and its own partner, the Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission.

    Then the allegations of torture hit the press. It suddenly became concerned, not because of human rights or international law, but because the Prime Minister is always more concerned about his own image than the reputation of Canada.

    It is the reputation of Canada that demands a public inquiry. Why will the government not call one?

    Mr. Speaker, the ranting and raving and unfounded allegations from the member opposite are not going to change the facts.

    We acted and acted responsibly on advice that came from senior military advisers, military generals and commanders on the ground in Afghanistan. We acted on the advice of Mr. David Mulroney, who was a senior bureaucrat, a public servant and an impartial person helping us with decisions in Afghanistan.

    That is the responsible thing to do. That is in fact what I would suspect the member opposite and his government did when they were receiving this same type of advice. The difference of course is that we took action. We took responsibility. We improved the arrangement. We improved the resources, as we did with the military.

    That is our record. Let him defend his.

    Mr. Speaker, the parliamentary committee on Afghanistan has not received any documents from this government, although these have been made available. The government has no problem leaking them to a few chosen journalists. I guess the members of the Special Committee on the Canadian Mission in Afghanistan may be somewhat of a security threat to this country.

    Will the government stop the stonewalling, produce the documents, stop the spin and call a public inquiry? If it has been doing such a good job, what does it have to hide?

    Mr. Speaker, talk about sucking and blowing. We are being accused of not releasing documents but leaking them at the same time.

    There is a mandatory obligation on public officials to ensure that when information is released, it is in compliance with the Canada Evidence Act. That legislation was made more robust by, and wait for it, the previous government.

    With respect to information, I think most people, even the hon. member, can understand that we want to protect operational matters, information received from other countries, other sources, confidential sources, national security. Those are the reasons these documents are being examined by the Department of Justice.

    Mr. Speaker, despite receiving warnings that began in May 2006, the government did nothing to put an end to the transfers for 18 months. Canada's reputation as a world leader in justice and human rights has been damaged by the actions of these Conservatives.

    How can the Prime Minister talk to the Chinese government about respect for human rights—in Tibet for example—if he cannot lead by example?

    Despite that rambling dissertation, Mr. Speaker, I will take Canada's record on human rights over China's any day.

    I go back to the issue at hand. What we do as a government is act responsibly. We enhanced the arrangement to allow for greater monitoring inside prisons. We upped our ability to train, monitor and mentor prison officials. We invested in the physical prisons themselves. Those are the responsible things we did, and we started doing that immediately after taking office.

     Contrary to the allegations, we acted responsibly, quickly and improved the situation in Afghanistan.

    Mr. Speaker, this is yet another new version of events from the Minister of National Defence. His version changes every day.

    The Conservatives deliberately hid the fact that, for 18 months, they regularly turned Afghan detainees over even though there was a real and serious risk that they would be tortured.

    How can the Prime Minister go to China and defend human rights, particularly with respect to Tibet, when his own government is guilty of violating those same human rights?

    Mr. Speaker, what again is so irresponsible, so inflammatory and so false is for the hon. member to try to parse her words and suggest somehow that the Canadian military was complicit in torture, suggesting that those hard-working, honest officials and military on the ground would deliberately transfer detainees, Taliban prisoners, to Afghan authorities knowing they would be tortured. That is a backhanded way to cast aspersions on the good work being done by our military and our professional public service. That is what those members are doing.

    Mr. Speaker, for months, the government turned a blind eye to the torture of Afghan detainees. Now, it is trying to get out of this mess by burying the truth. The government has threatened Richard Colvin with a lawsuit and refused to disclose various documents to the opposition. Now it has given an independent commission a set of heavily censored documents.

    Does all of this obstruction not prove that the government is trying to evade responsibility in the matter of the torture of Afghan detainees?

    Again, Mr. Speaker, we improved the situation. We invested more heavily in improving the justice system and human rights system in Afghanistan.

    With respect to documents, we continue to provide all legally required documents, documents that are available, documents that have to be vetted by the Department of Justice for content to ensure no national security risks will occur, that no information was received by the Canadian government from other sources to ensure we protect the interests of the Canadian Forces for operational reasons on the ground.

    I think even a member of the Bloc could understand there are security concerns that we have to protect.

    Mr. Speaker, on another note, NATO announced today that Canadian soldiers will be leaving Kandahar in early 2010 for the neighbouring district of Arghandab.

    Can the Minister of National Defence confirm that this redeployment will not change the July 2011 end date of the mission for all Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan?

    Mr. Speaker, what happens on the ground with respect to operational deployment of troops really is a testament to the high regard with which Canadian soldiers are held by our allies, particularly the United States. With respect to the command structure that is in place, Canadian generals, Canadian commanders actually have command over other countries. We have assumed this type of responsibility.

    With respect to territorial responsibilities, the Arghandab Valley is an area for which Canada had previously held responsibility. This is where the Dahla Dam project takes place, an important contribution, a signature project that provides water and irrigation for Afghans.

     We can be very proud of the professionalism and the magnificent work of our men and women in uniform.

    Mr. Speaker, self-employed workers in Quebec will pay too much for EI compassionate care and sickness benefits. Instead of paying 41¢ per $100 of earnings, they will be expected to pay $1.36. It is too much.

    The Conservative members refused to hear the former EI chief actuary, who maintains, as we do, that self-employed workers in Quebec are being ripped off.

    Does the government's refusal to hear this credible witness not prove that self-employed workers in Quebec will not get value for their money?

    Mr. Speaker, with Bill C-56, for the first time, we are offering self-employed workers in Quebec the opportunity to pay into the plan in order to receive compassionate care, sickness and injury benefits at an affordable price.

    This is the first time these benefits have been offered outside private companies. It is a good thing for Quebeckers who are self-employed workers.

    Mr. Speaker, this government's employment insurance measures do not meet the needs of workers in Quebec. The program for long-tenured workers does not apply to Quebec forestry workers; the additional five weeks are a temporary measure; self-employed workers in Quebec already had access to parental benefits, and the contribution rate for compassionate care and sickness benefits is three times too high.

    When will the Conservative members from Quebec stand up for Quebec workers?

    Mr. Speaker, it is very important that Quebeckers understand what we have done to help them during this global recession.

    First, we added five weeks of benefits for everyone, including long-tenured workers. Now they can receive from five to twenty more weeks of benefits. This measure will benefit forestry workers in particular.

    We are offering Quebeckers and self-employed workers benefits they did not have access to before.

    Mr. Speaker, my question is for the minister responsible for infrastructure. I have in my hand the status report every project promised federal dollars has to send in. It is a report that the minister and his officials denied even existed.

    Will the minister finally tell the House how many actual jobs he has created to date with federal infrastructure stimulus funds and will he release the status report replies to the House so Canadians can see for themselves?

    Mr. Speaker, we are working in partnership with the provinces and municipalities in every corner of the country, from coast to coast to coast. One of our main partners is the Federation of Canadian Municipalities. The report it did for its prebudget submission said that for every billion dollars that all three levels of government invested in infrastructure, we would see about 11,000 jobs created. That is tremendously important. There is also the great number of spinoff jobs which help keep our economy strong.

     The economic action plan is working. We are continuing to make announcements. We are seeing construction begin in every corner of the country.

    Mr. Speaker, let us try this again. The government has misled Canadians with advertising claims on job creation without any proof. Tomorrow's report will be just another expensive fairytale.

     The Conservatives have information about their promised infrastructure stimulus projects, detailed information. There can be only one reason why the minister is afraid to release it, because it proves he is an enormous failure in creating jobs and helping ordinary Canadians.

    Will the minister stop trying to hide his incompetence and release all the project status reports today without delay?

    Mr. Speaker, the information the member opposite discusses is some three or four months old. However, I would encourage him to travel around the city of Toronto and around the province of Ontario and see the great work the federal government is doing with Dalton McGuinty's provincial government.

     We have gone out of our way to put signs up, just for the member opposite, so he can see the amount of construction going on in every part of the country. There are signs of hope, signs of opportunity, signs that jobs are being created and that we are coming out of this economic recession stronger than ever.

    Mr. Speaker, Canadians overwhelmingly want real government leadership on climate change and they are just not getting it.

    The Liberal Party leader is committed to science-based targets in line with other industrialized countries, reductions to keep climate warming below 2°C. The Liberals have a solid plan to achieve it.

     The Conservatives have had four years and three ministers and still no plan. Contrary to the Prime Minister's claims, even China's targets are more aggressive than Canada's.

    Why has the government failed so miserably on climate change?

    Mr. Speaker, our position is clear, and that is harmonized North American targets within an international framework.

    It is hard to take the Liberal Party seriously on this matter. The Liberals signed Kyoto, with unrealistic targets. Then beyond that, they spoke about a North American cap and trade with North American targets. Then they voted for European targets. It could not possibly get any stranger until they brought out their policy document that had no targets.

    Mr. Speaker, Équiterre, Environmental Defense, Power Up, all these leading environmental NGOs salute the Liberal commitment. Where is the Conservative commitment?

    Here is what the Prime Minister had to say about climate change discussions in 2002, “I put the government on notice that this is only the beginning of the debate. We will fight this every step of the way”.

    The Prime Minister has been blocking action on climate change for seven long years. Why should Canadians trust his government to change course now?

    Mr. Speaker, Canadians certainly do trust this government because our position is clear and it is consistent. It is an international treaty. It is harmonized North American targets.

     The entire world is focused on targets at Copenhagen. The debate at Copenhagen is about what targets people are putting forward. The Liberal Party comes forward with a policy document that calls for no targets. That is the Liberal way. Kyoto had no targets. We never know if the Liberals are for or against carbon taxes.

    Mr. Speaker, our government continues to make unprecedented investments in infrastructure from coast to coast to coast. We continue to work with our provincial, territorial and municipal partners to get projects approved so we can stimulate the economy and create jobs for Canadians.

    Could Canada's Minister of Transport, Infrastructure and Communities tell the House about the significant announcement he made today in the city of Toronto and how it will affect one of hockey's most iconic shrines and one of Toronto's most historic buildings?

    Mr. Speaker, I was very pleased to be in the great riding of Toronto Centre this morning with the Minister of Finance to make a historic investment of $20 million to help revitalize Maple Leaf Gardens, a building that has been left derelict for many years.

     This government was pleased to partner with Ryerson University and Galen Weston of Loblaw Companies Limited. That $20 million investment will see more than $40 million from students and from the private sector to make things happen. That is great news.

    We had to leave the announcement early because the construction workers were standing by to start construction work and to create jobs right away.

    Mr. Speaker, pensions are at risk and RRSPs are losing significant value. At a time when Canadian seniors are faced with poverty, the government is raising their taxes.

    The Liberals have decided to abandon hard-working Canadians, but I rise today to speak on behalf of those they have abandoned.

    Canadians are opposed to the HST. In fact, in Manitoba they have rejected the government's HST framework as it would impose more than $400 million in new taxes on families. Canadians cannot afford it. They do not want it.

    Why will the government not listen?

    Mr. Speaker, a couple of the provinces have chosen to harmonize their provincial sales tax with the GST. Three others did that before. We have a proposal before the House to deal with this issue.

    My friend in the NDP is an expert on taxes. We have cut over 100 taxes and the NDP has voted against that each and every time. When we reduced the GST twice, from 7% to 6% and then 6% to 5%, each time the member voted against it. Yet he stands here and says he cares about ordinary Canadians.

    Mr. Speaker, yesterday, members of the transport committee heard shocking revelations about Transport Canada's failed approach to aviation safety. Members learned that inspectors spend their time pushing paper rather than making sure it is safe to fly.

    Government members on the committee claimed that the witnesses were fear-mongering. If this was just fear-mongering, why did the government halt its plans for safety management systems for small airlines? It recognized it was not going to work.

    Will the government commit to review aviation safety, fix the problems and restore public confidence?

    Mr. Speaker, we are tremendously concerned with civil aviation safety. At my department, that is one of our most important responsibilities. I do not support outsourcing safety testing or safety monitoring to the private sector. I think it is an important core responsibility of government and my department.

    We are doing a lot of listening to our employees and to others who have come forward with some reasonable suggestions. I did hear one comment from Daniel Slunder, the head of the Canadian Federal Pilots Association, who said:

    We are committed to working with stakeholders to ensure the public is safe.

    Mr. Speaker, although the MAPAQ has authorized Fromagerie F.X. Pichet to market a raw milk cheese aged less than 60 days in Quebec, Health Canada objects. The result? A Quebec cheese maker is left with 2,500 wheels of cheese on its hands, even though Quebec health authorities have approved the product. For 15 years now, Ottawa has been getting in the way of Quebec cheese makers who are simply trying to respond to consumer demand by producing excellent raw milk cheeses.

    When will the Minister of State for Agriculture stop being a milksop and actually defend Quebec businesses and consumers?

    Mr. Speaker, our government takes food safety very seriously. We look at these matters. We look at the recommendations that are made to the government in this regard, and we are looking at them now.

    Mr. Speaker, this government is obsessed with uniformity. There is no room for individuality. That is true of raw milk cheese, and it is also true of the organic products for which the federal government refuses to recognize Quebec certification, even though it is much stricter.

    When will this government realize that Quebec producers and consumers are the first to suffer from its uncompromising attitude?

    Mr. Speaker, I would like to point out what we have done for milk producers. Under article 28 of GATT, we took measures to limit the amount of milk protein concentrates entering this country, we introduced competition standards for cheese in order to guarantee the presence of Canadian milk in Canadian cheese, and we promised to invoke specialized WTO safeguards.

    Mr. Speaker, Canadians remember with pride the role that our 1,000 observers and mission leader, former prime minister John Turner, played during the 2004 election in Ukraine.

    In January 2010, the first presidential election since the Orange Revolution will take place. The Ukrainian Canadian Congress has asked for Canada to send 500 observers this time but the minister only announced 60. The congress is disappointed and the NGOs in Ukraine are worried.

    In 2004, we stood shoulder to shoulder with the people of Ukraine. Why not in 2010?

    Mr. Speaker, I want to assure the member that even this time Canada will stand shoulder to shoulder with Ukraine. We are extremely happy with the elections that are taking place there. We will keep monitoring and we ensure that it will be a transparent and fair election.

    Mr. Speaker, that is a symbolic gesture, not a real commitment. Sixty is one-tenth of 2004's number.

    Mr. Davidovich, the former deputy chair of Ukraine's electoral commission, who refused to sign off on the previous fraudulent results, recently came to Ottawa. Our House gave this democratic hero a standing ovation. He is terribly worried. He flew here from Kyiv to raise the alarm.

    In 2004, Canada showed international leadership. Canadians were heroes in the streets of Ukraine. However, last week the minister refused to meet Davidovich. Why? Why will she not listen to his expert advice?