Notices of Meeting include information about the subject matter to be examined by the committee and date, time and place of the meeting, as well as a list of any witnesses scheduled to appear. The Evidence is the edited and revised transcript of what is said before a committee. The Minutes of Proceedings are the official record of the business conducted by the committee at a sitting.
Honourable members of the committee, I see quorum.
I must inform the members that the clerk of the committee can only receive motions for the election of the chair. The clerk cannot receive other types of motions, entertain points of order or participate in debate.
We can now proceed to the election of the chair.
Pursuant to the order adopted by the House on December 8, 2021, the chair must be a member of the government party.
I want to thank each and every one of you for giving me an opportunity to chair this meeting. I would also like to thank Madam Clerk for presiding over the meeting earlier.
I also welcome two analysts. We have Ms. Allison Goody and Ms. Julie Béchard, as well as the other support staff.
If the committee is in agreement, I will invite the clerk to proceed with the election of the vice-chairs. The first vice-chair will be from the official opposition. The second vice-chair will be from an opposition party other than the official opposition party.
Welcome to meeting number one of the House of Commons Special Committee on Afghanistan.
Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of November 25, 2021. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application, but of course all of them are present here today. Regardless, for the speaking list, the committee clerk and I will do the best we can to maintain a consolidated order of speaking for all members, whether participating virtually or in person.
I would like to take this opportunity to remind all participants to this meeting that screenshots or taking photos of your screen is not permitted.
The proceedings will be made available via the House of Commons website.
Given the ongoing pandemic situation and in light of the recommendations from public health authorities, as well as the directive of the Board of Internal Economy on October 19, 2021, to remain healthy and safe, the following is recommended for all those attending the meeting in person. Anyone with symptoms should participate by Zoom and not attend the meeting in person. Everyone must maintain two metres of physical distance, whether seated or standing. Everyone must wear a non-medical mask when circulating in the room. It is recommended in the strongest possible terms that members wear their masks at all times, including when seated. Non-medical masks, which provide better clarity over cloth masks, are available in this room at the back.
Everyone present must maintain proper hand hygiene by using the hand sanitizer at the room entrance. Committee rooms are cleaned before and after each meeting. To maintain this, everyone is encouraged to clean surfaces such as desks, chairs and microphones with the provided disinfectant wipes when vacating or taking a seat.
As chair, I will be enforcing these measures for the duration of the meeting, and I thank all members in advance for their co-operation.
I also would like to congratulate Mr. Chong, Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe and Madam Jenny Kwan on being the vice-chairs. I'm looking forward to working with each and every one of you.
I'll read them one by one and then we can go from there.
The first one is on analyst services. I move:
That the committee retain, as needed and at the discretion of the Chair, the services of one or more analysts from the Library of Parliament to assist it in its work.
On the subcommittee on agenda and procedure, I move:
That the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be established and be composed of the Chair, one member from each recognized party; and that the subcommittee work in a spirit of collaboration.
That the Chair be authorized to hold meetings to receive evidence and to have that evidence published when a quorum is not present, provided that at least four members are present, including two members of the opposition parties and two members of the government party, but when travelling outside the Parliamentary Precinct, that the meeting begin after 15 minutes, regardless of members present.
The next motion deals with time for opening remarks and questioning of witnesses. I move:
That witnesses be given five minutes for their opening statement; that whenever possible, witnesses provide the committee with their opening statement 72 hours in advance; that at the discretion of the Chair, during the questioning of witnesses, there be allocated six minutes for the first questioner of each party as follows for the first round: Conservative Party, Liberal Party, Bloc Québécois, New Democratic Party. For the second and subsequent rounds, the order and time for questioning be as follows: Conservative Party, five minutes; Liberal Party, five minutes; Bloc Québécois, two and a half minutes; New Democratic Party, two and a half minutes; Conservative Party, five minutes; Liberal Party, five minutes.
I do, Mr. Chair. I just want to see whether or not there is any appetite from committee members for the following. I know that in other committees, when we go to the second round, as we sort of wrap-up, oftentimes the chair would actually allow the Bloc and the NDP to have one last minute to round up the rotation.
I want to see whether or not there's appetite from committee members to follow that practice, which has been done at some other committees I've sat on.
In the last Parliament, it was the committee that I sat on as a substitute, actually. I was a deputy health critic. The health committee, for example, adopted that.
At the CIMM committee, we also went through rotations where the chair from that committee also engaged in that practice.
Those are two committees with which I have experience.
In the Subcommittee on International Human Rights, speaking time in the second round is divided equally among all parties. I think that's even better, but that's not even what we are asking for here. Since the committee was created unanimously and the amendment and the motion were also passed unanimously, I think we can all be wise together and accept this proposal from the NDP.
In committees that I've sat on before, which were not those ones, it wasn't in the routine motions. However, the chair always did do that, and sometimes, if we were running out of time, he would shorten the time to three minutes per party.
There's lots of discretion for the chair to do that, and there's certainly the will to hear from all parties. I don't know that we actually need to amend the routine motion, but given the discretion the chair has, there's certainly a desire to hear from everybody when we have the time.
Ms. Kwan referred to the citizenship and immigration committee. We had nothing in the routine motion in regard to that. It is at the discretion of the chair, and we have full confidence in you that, based on the meeting and how much time is left, we will work collaboratively to see if there is a need.
I think the principle of committee is the same as the principle in the House, which is that every member should have equal time, other than the chair, of course, to provide commentary or to ask questions of witnesses. There are four Conservative members of this committee and we only have three slots in the first 49 minutes of questions and comments from members. If you add to that five to 10 minutes of statements from witnesses at the opening, it means that in the first hour—we only have three of four slots—one of our members will be denied a slot in the first hour on this routine motion as it currently was agreed to by the whips. I don't support anything that would detract from the ability of my colleagues here to have time for questions or comments.
I note that the New Democratic Party has two slots as it stands in the routine motions, and the time allocated to the New Democratic Party, which is eight and a half minutes out of 49 minutes, is above their standing in the House of Commons. I don't think we should derivate or deviate from what has been proposed in the routine motions. The whips have agreed to it for a reason. It's fair to even the smaller parties in the House. In fact, it accords more time to the smaller recognized parties in the House than their standing would warrant. Any dilution beyond that means that our members here—and the Liberal members, frankly—get even less time for questions and comments at committee meetings.
The next one is with regard to document distribution. I move:
That only the clerk of the committee be authorized to distribute documents to members of the Committee provided the documents are in both official languages, and that the witnesses be advised accordingly.
That the clerk of the committee, at the discretion of the Chair, be authorized to make the necessary arrangements to provide working meals for the committee and its subcommittees.
The next one is on travel, accommodation and living expenses of witnesses. I move:
That, if requested, reasonable travel, accommodation and living expenses be reimbursed to witnesses not exceeding two representatives per organization; and that in exceptional circumstances, payment for more representatives be made at the discretion of the Chair.
That, unless otherwise ordered, each committee member be allowed to be accompanied by one staff member at in camera meetings and that one additional person from each House officer’s office be allowed to be present.
The next one is on transcripts of in camera meetings. I move:
That one copy of the transcript of each in camera meeting be kept in the committee clerk’s office for consultation by members of the committee or by their staff; and that the analysts assigned to the committee also have access to the in camera transcripts.
That a 48-hour notice, interpreted as two nights, be required for any substantive motion to be moved in committee, unless the substantive motion relates directly to business then under consideration, provided that: (a) the notice be filed with the clerk of the committee no later than 4:00 p.m. from Monday to Friday; (b) the motion be distributed to Members and the offices of the whips of each recognized party in both official languages by the clerk on the same day the said notice was transmitted if it was received no later than the deadline hour; (c) notices received after the deadline hour or on non-business days be deemed to have been received during the next business day; and that when the committee is holding meetings outside the Parliamentary Precinct, no substantive motion may be moved.
That in relation to orders of reference from the House respecting Bills,
(a) The clerk of the committee shall, upon the committee receiving such an order of reference, write to each member who is not a member of a caucus represented on the committee to invite those members to file with the clerk of the committee, in both official languages, any amendments to the bill, which is the subject of the said Order, which they would suggest that the committee consider;
(b) Suggested amendments filed, pursuant to paragraph (a), at least 48 hours prior to the start of clause-by-clause consideration of the bill to which the amendments relate shall be deemed to be proposed during the said consideration, provided that the committee may, by motion, vary this deadline in respect of a given bill; and
(c) During the clause-by-clause consideration of a bill, the Chair shall allow a member who filed suggested amendments, pursuant to paragraph (a), an opportunity to make brief representations in support of them.
The next one is with regard to technical tests for witnesses. I move:
That the clerk inform each witness who is to appear before the committee that the House Administration support team must conduct technical tests to check the connectivity and the equipment used to ensure the best possible sound quality; and that the Chair advises the committee, at the start of each meeting, of any witness who did not perform the required technical tests.
The last one is with regard to linguistic review. I move:
That all documents submitted for committee business that do not come from a federal department, member's offices, or that have not been translated by the Translation Bureau be sent for prior linguistic review by the Translation Bureau before being distributed to members.
I'd like to move an additional motion for the committee's consideration in relation to the in camera meetings. It would be helpful for us to have clear parameters on what items should be dealt with in camera, so that we don't end up spending valuable time debating what should and shouldn't be in camera.
To that end, I move:
That the committee may meet in camera only for the following purposes:
(a) to consider a draft report;
(b) to attend briefings concerning national security;
(c) to consider lists of witnesses; and
(d) for any other reason with the unanimous consent of the committee.
Mr. Chair, with respect to Madam Kwan, I don't support the motion because I don't think going in camera should require unanimous consent. I think if it's the will of the majority of the committee to go in camera, to adjourn or to do anything, the committee should so proceed. I don't think we should subject it to unanimous consent.
There are other tools available for members who have the minority of views on this committee other than requiring unanimity.
I will introduce a routine motion that was passed by the Standing Committee on Finance.
(2000)
[English]
I believe it was adopted earlier today, so the meeting minutes may not have been prepared yet to show that.
This motion was proposed by Liberal members on that committee, I believe, and adopted by the committee. It's a very simple motion.
I move:
That the committee authorize the clerk to distribute all committee documents to Mr. Alex Ruff.
Let me explain the logic behind this motion.
Mr. Ruff was an infantry officer in the Royal Canadian Regiment. I see him actually looking at me on the big TV screen in front of me. He served in six operational deployments overseas, two of which were Operation Athena in Kandahar province in Afghanistan, and in the city of Kabul, in 2007 and 2012.
He also served in Operation Inherent Resolve in Iraq from 2018 to 2019. He may, from time to time, sit in on this committee to participate as one of the members of this committee. He would like to be on the same email list of members of this committee who receive documents from the clerk, so that he can keep track of the committee's business and participate in the proceedings when he substitutes in for one of the four of us here.
I note that the finance committee did a similar thing with Mr. Fragiskatos, who was recently appointed Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of National Revenue. He has been put on the distribution list through a routine motion adopted by the finance committee, so that he can keep track of the proceedings of that committee.
That's simply the reason for moving this motion, and I hope committee members will support it.
Congratulations on your election, Mr. Chair. My congratulations also go to all the vice‑chairs. I'm sure we are going to do some important work on this committee.
I would like to move the following motion, which the clerk, Ms. Burke, already has:
That, pursuant to the order of the House adopted on December 8, 2021, the committee assess the humanitarian assistance measures to be put in place by Canada to bring relief to the Afghan people; that the Committee invites representatives of the World Food Program, groups of veterans involved in the repatriation of Afghan interpreters and NGOs working in Afghanistan—
That, pursuant to the order of the House adopted on December 8, 2021, the committee assess the humanitarian assistance measures to be put in place by Canada to bring relief to the Afghan people; that the Committee invites representatives of the World Food Program, groups of veterans involved in the repatriation of Afghan interpreters and NGOs working in Afghanistan, to do so, that the Committee hold a minimum of three (3) meetings.
Hold on, Chair. If we're going to add other humanitarian organizations either we decide that we're going to submit other witnesses, or we name them now. I think it might make more sense to adopt your motion as is, but add something that says, “and other witnesses”.
I would like to hear from an organization that's assisting Afghan women and also from World Vision Canada, which I know has approached me about their challenges, but there may be others.
Could we submit additional witnesses by a certain date? I'd be open to that.
Mr. Chair, I agree with my friend Ms. Damoff. However, if we invite other witnesses and other organizations, it makes sense to add a minimum of two sessions.
If we invite more witnesses, it is logical that we will need more time. So I could reread the motion and add “and other humanitarian organizations.” Also, instead of “three sessions”, it would be “five sessions”.
I agree with that. I would also agree with Ms. Damoff's suggestion of adding more organizations to this motion. It would be right to add more organizations and not restrict ourselves to the ones that are mentioned in the motion.
It's a great motion presented by my colleague. Canada was one of the top 10 donors to Afghanistan before the turn of events. There are a lot of organizations that we need to hear from about the important work that they were doing in Afghanistan, from supporting women and girls to our food program.
I like the wording change suggestion of “and other organizations”. I'm just worried that.... I really want to get viewpoints from different organizations into what the situation on the ground is—because these organizations have direct ties—and how we can assist in humanitarian efforts. I understand Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe's urgency on this one.
Instead of three meetings as you suggested, five meetings would be ample time. We should also set a date for when these witnesses should be submitted so that we can get to work. I don't know what date is the will of the committee for when we can submit these witnesses to the committee.
Originally, I said “other organizations”, but while we were suspended, Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe pointed out to me that it already says “and NGOs working in Afghanistan”, so I don't think that particular wording is needed.
Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe is going to amend his own motion to a certain number of meetings. Can he do that? If not, I would amend it to five meetings.
I was going to amend it to five meetings, but a little birdie told me there might be consensus for four meetings, so I would amend it to be four meetings.
I support that amendment. I support the motion, but I'd like to do a subamendment, if I may.
Of urgency is the need to look at immigration measures to bring Afghan refugees and their families here to Canada, particularly those who served Canada.
I'd like to propose a subamendment to add the words “immigration measures” after the words “humanitarian assistance”. It would then be that, pursuant to the order of the House adopted on December 8, 2021, the committee assess the humanitarian assistance measures and immigration measures to be put in place by Canada to bring relief to the Afghan people; that the committee invite representatives of the World Food Programme, groups of veterans involved in the repatriation of Afghan interpreters and NGOs working in Afghanistan and family members; to do so, that the committee hold....
Madam Kwan, this can't be amended because it is altogether a separate motion as per my discussion with the clerk.
I would focus the discussion now on the friendly amendment by Parliamentary Secretary Damoff and then I'll come back if you want to propose your motion again.
Now I'll move another amendment to the amended motion.
I'll go back to what I was saying. I think it is important to also look at immigration measures as an urgent matter in addition to the humanitarian assistance measures. I'd like to propose an amendment to add “immigration measures” after the words “humanitarian assistance measures”.
It would read that, pursuant to the order of the House adopted on December 8, 2021, the committee assess the humanitarian assistance measures and immigration measures to be put in place by Canada to bring relief to the Afghan people; that the committee invite representatives of the World Food Programme, groups of veterans involved in the repatriation of Afghan interpreters, and NGOs working in Afghanistan, and family members; to do so, that the committee hold a minimum of.... I'd like to amend the amended number of meetings from four to eight.
I understand the spirit of the amendment proposed here, but I think the motion, as amended, already provides for four meetings and focuses on the humanitarian crisis. In fact, that's the spirit of the motion that was passed in the House to create this committee: to focus on the humanitarian crisis. So I think we have already agreed to four meetings on the humanitarian crisis and everything that's already written down. As far as the immigration issue and everything else, I think that will be studied in later meetings. It will be the subject of another motion as a result of the meetings that we'll have under the motion that I introduced and that was amended by Ms. Damoff.
So, I'm opposed to that, so that we don't complicate things and get lost in it all.
Through you, Chair, does the mover of the motion want to add a date by which the witnesses' names need to be submitted to the clerk? I'll leave it to his judgment.
To be realistic, we would first have to know when the committee is going to meet for the first time so that we can determine a deadline. I don't think we have decided that yet. I think it should be a week before the first meeting of the committee. That's sort of how it usually works.
I don't see any other member who wants to speak, so I would like to take the vote on the motion as amended.
(Motion as amended agreed to)
The Chair: Thank you.
Madam Kwan, before I go to you, can I just quickly check with the honourable Mr. Chong to see if he has something to say on the same motion that got passed?
I'd like to move a new motion. It really mimics the wording of this last one that we just voted on. The motion would read as follows:
That, pursuant to the order of the House adopted on December 8, 2021, the committee assess the immigration measures to be put in place by Canada to bring relief to the Afghan people; that the Committee invite groups of veterans involved in the repatriation of Afghan interpreters and NGOs working in Afghanistan and family members; to do so, that the Committee hold a minimum of four meetings.
Can we have the motion in both languages? Perhaps the clerk can email it to us. If Ms. Kwan has the motion written in both languages, perhaps it can be distributed to all the members so that we can have a look.
While the motion's being distributed, I'm a little concerned about adopting this motion, not so much because of the substance of it but rather because we just adopted a motion setting aside four meetings for the committee to call witnesses—that will take two weeks—and then, if we adopt this motion, that will take another two weeks. It will be four weeks before we're able to hear from departmental officials and ministers. I think that we should be hearing from ministers and departmental officials earlier than that.
I point to the terms of the order from the House. In paragraph (k), it says clearly that a whole range of ministers and other senior officials are to be invited to appear, so I think it's really important that you, Mr. Chair, ensure that the clerk invite those witnesses and that those witnesses appear in front of this committee. They're not witnesses, technically, but those ministers should be invited to appear in front of the committee before too long.
Obviously, ministers have busy schedules, and they may not be able to make an appearance in the first two weeks or so that the committee begins its proceedings at the end of January, but I certainly expect that they would appear in front of this committee by mid to late February. In that context, I'm a little concerned about the motion in that we might be pushing these appearances off until March or even April, which, in my view, is far too late, considering that this committee is to report back to the House of Commons by the end of May or early June.
If we are to adopt Madam Kwan's motion, I would hope that you, Mr. Chair, would ensure that the committee invite those individuals in paragraph (k) before too long, so that we don't have to wait until March before we hear from ministers and other departmental officials.
Madam Kwan, do you want to say the final words? It's going to be 8:30, so if you want to get this motion finalized, I would like you to make the final remarks. Then we can take a vote on this one.
I just want to be clear. This motion is not meant to sidestep or to usurp the opportunity to invite ministers and officials to this committee. I guess maybe this committee operates a little bit differently than the other committees that I normally sit on, because we would move a bunch of things and then we would have a subcommittee to organize the dates we can bring witnesses forward, and so on and so forth.
This is not meant to sidestep that. I do think, though, that we should hear from officials and ministers, absolutely. The urgency of the situation, in my mind and for New Democrats, is that, yes, we need to get humanitarian aid to the people in Afghanistan, but we also need to bring people to safety. Those two things are of the utmost urgency in my mind. That's the reason I moved my motion. I want to make sure that this committee looks into immigration measures in order to bring people to safety.
I just want to make sure that every member realizes that there's only one meeting a week. There are not two meetings a week as is usual. We don't have much time, so, Mr. Chong, I agree with you. I think we have to bring in all those witnesses, but if we keep on adding, we're not going to get anywhere.
I'm prepared to support it under the understanding—even in light of the one meeting a week—that ministers and departmental officials will be invited to appear, not after these witnesses concerning humanitarian assistance and concerning immigration measures are invited to appear, but some time during those other scheduled periods.
I'm asking you as chair to give us assurances that if this current motion is adopted, that motion, along with the previous motion adopted, doesn't mean that we're not inviting ministers and departmental officials to appear at the very end of the eight meetings that we are holding on these two particular issues.
I think we are already at 8:30 p.m. and we have decided. We have passed one motion and we will have four meetings on that, so maybe Ms. Kwan can bring that motion to the next meeting, because we need to look into the language also.
I was just going to say that the motion actually says that the witnesses Mr. Chong mentioned would appear from time to time as the committee sees fit. I'm in complete agreement with the motion that we passed, and I think that's the motion the committee has passed at this point. Then we can work on a work plan moving forward. I too would like to see Ms. Kwan's motion in writing before I vote on it.