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37th PARLIAMENT, 1st SESSION

Standing Committee on National Defence and Veterans Affairs

COMMITTEE EVIDENCE

CONTENTS

Thursday, February 28, 2002

1530

The Chair (Mr. David Pratt (Nepean--Carleton, Lib.))

Rear Admiral Raymond Zuliani (Chief of Reserve and Cadets, Department of National Defence)

1535

1540

The Chair

Brigadier General Paul R. Hussey (Director General of Reserves and Cadets, Department of National Defence)

1545

The Chair

Mr. Rob Anders (Calgary West, Canadian Alliance)

RAdm Raymond Zuliani

Mr. Rob Anders

RAdm Raymond Zuliani

Mr. Rob Anders

RAdm Raymond Zuliani

Mr. Rob Anders

RAdm Raymond Zuliani

Mr. Rob Anders

RAdm Raymond Zuliani

Mr. Rob Anders

RAdm Raymond Zuliani

Mr. Rob Anders

RAdm Raymond Zuliani

Mr. Rob Anders

RAdm Raymond Zuliani

Mr. Rob Anders

RAdm Raymond Zuliani

1550

Mr. Rob Anders

RAdm Raymond Zuliani

Mr. Rob Anders

RAdm Raymond Zuliani

The Chair

Mr. Rob Anders

The Chair

Mr. Rob Anders

RAdm Raymond Zuliani

Mr. Rob Anders

RAdm Raymond Zuliani

The Chair

Mr. Claude Bachand (Saint-Jean, BQ)

RAdm Raymond Zuliani

Mr. Claude Bachand

RAdm Raymond Zuliani

Mr. Claude Bachand

RAdm Raymond Zuliani

Mr. Claude Bachand

1555

RAdm Raymond Zuliani

Mr. Claude Bachand

RAdm Raymond Zuliani

The Chair

Mr. Claude Bachand

1600

RAdm Raymond Zuliani

Mr. Claude Bachand

The Chair

Mr. Bob Wood (Nipissing, Lib.)

RAdm Raymond Zuliani

Mr. Bob Wood

RAdm Raymond Zuliani

1605

Mr. Bob Wood

RAdm Raymond Zuliani

Mr. Bob Wood

RAdm Raymond Zuliani

Mr. Bob Wood

RAdm Raymond Zuliani

The Chair

Mr. Rob Anders

BGen Paul R. Hussey

The Chair

Mr. Rob Anders

RAdm Raymond Zuliani

Mr. Rob Anders

RAdm Raymond Zuliani

Mr. Rob Anders

1610

RAdm Raymond Zuliani

Mr. Rob Anders

RAdm Raymond Zuliani

Mr. Rob Anders

RAdm Raymond Zuliani

Mr. Rob Anders

RAdm Raymond Zuliani

Mr. Rob Anders

The Chair

RAdm Raymond Zuliani

Mr. Rob Anders

RAdm Raymond Zuliani

Mr. Rob Anders

RAdm Raymond Zuliani

Mr. Rob Anders

RAdm Raymond Zuliani

Mr. Rob Anders

RAdm Raymond Zuliani

The Chair

1615

Mr. Claude Bachand

RAdm Raymond Zuliani

Mr. Claude Bachand

RAdm Raymond Zuliani

Mr. Claude Bachand

RAdm Raymond Zuliani

Mr. Claude Bachand

RAdm Raymond Zuliani

Mr. Claude Bachand

RAdm Raymond Zuliani

Mr. Bachand

The Chair

Mr. John O'Reilly (Haliburton--Victoria--Brock, Lib.)

1620

RAdm Raymond Zuliani

Mr. John O'Reilly

RAdm Raymond Zuliani

Mr. John O'Reilly

RAdm Raymond Zuliani

BGen Paul R. Hussey

1625

The Chair

Mr. John O'Reilly

Mr. Rob Anders

RAdm Raymond Zuliani

Mr. Rob Anders

RAdm Raymond Zuliani

Mr. Rob Anders

RAdm Raymond Zuliani

Mr. Rob Anders

The Chair

RAdm Raymond Zuliani

Mr. Rob Anders

RAdm Raymond Zuliani

Mr. Rob Anders

The Chair

Mr. Rob Anders

Captain Jennifer J. Bennett (Director of Reserves, Department of National Defence)

Mr. Rob Anders

1630

Capt (N) Jennifer Bennett

Mr. Rob Anders

Capt (N) Jennifer Bennett

Mr. Rob Anders

Capt (N) Jennifer Bennett

Mr. Rob Anders

Capt (N) Jennifer Bennett

Mr. Rob Anders

Capt (N) Jennifer Bennett

The Chair

Mr. Rob Anders

The Chair

Mr. John O'Reilly

1635

Capt Jennifer Bennett

Mr. John O'Reilly

Capt (N) Jennifer Bennett

Mr. John O'Reilly

The Chair

Mr. Claude Bachand

1640

RAdm Raymond Zuliani

Mr. Claude Bachand

Capt (N) Jennifer Bennett

Mr. Claude Bachand

Capt (N) Jennifer Bennett

Mr. Bachand

RAdm Raymond Zuliani

Capt (N) Jennifer Bennett

Mr. Claude Bachand

RAdm Raymond Zuliani

1645

Mr. Claude Bachand

RAdm Raymond Zuliani

Mr. Claude Bachand

RAdm Raymond Zuliani

Mr. Claude Bachand

RAdm Raymond Zuliani

Mr. Claude Bachand

RAdm Raymond Zuliani

The Chair

Mr. John O'Reilly

RAdm Raymond Zuliani

Mr. John O'Reilly

RAdm Raymond Zuliani

Mr. John O'Reilly

RAdm Raymond Zuliani

Mr. John O'Reilly

1650

RAdm Raymond Zuliani

BGen Paul Hussey

Mr. John O'Reilly

RAdm Raymond Zuliani

Mr. John O'Reilly

RAdm Raymond Zuliani

The Chair

RAdm Raymond Zuliani

1655

The Chair

Mr. Bachand

The Chair

CANADA

Standing Committee on National Defence and Veterans Affairs

NUMBER 045

1st SESSION

37th PARLIAMENT

COMMITTEE EVIDENCE

Thursday, February 28, 2002

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

¹ (1530)

[English]

The Chair (Mr. David Pratt (Nepean--Carleton, Lib.)): I call to order this meeting of the Standing Committee on National Defence and Veterans Affairs, as we continue our study of the state of readiness of the Canadian Forces.

We are very pleased to welcome today Rear Admiral Raymond Zuliani, chief of reserves and cadets; Brigadier General Paul Hussey, director of general reserves and cadets; and Naval Captain Jennifer Bennett, director of reserves.

We're glad you could be here today. We normally allow you to make a statement, and then we go to questions from members of the opposition and members of the government side.

You have the floor.

Rear Admiral Raymond Zuliani (Chief of Reserve and Cadets, Department of National Defence): Thank you very much.

Mr. Chairman, ladies and gentlemen of the committee, thank you for giving me this opportunity to address the committee on Canada's reserve force. As noted, I am Rear Admiral Zuliani, the chief of reserves and cadets, and a part-time class-A reservist. I've been a member of the reserve force for 37 years, while working as an educator in Thunder Bay, Ontario, in my civilian life.

In my capacity as the chief of reserves and cadets I do not own reserve forces, nor do I work in the production of reserve personnel. My staff and I serve as advisers to the Chief of the Defence Staff on reserve matters and policy, as well as providing strategic guidance and programming to the Canadian cadet program and the junior Canadian ranger youth programs.

I am not directly responsible for reserves, as I am not a force generator, and therefore I am not involved directly in the business of personnel production, training, or deployment. That is primarily the job of each of the environmental commanders, some of whom have already spoken to you prior to my appearance.

However, I understand you have not had any reserve-specific discussions, and I'd like to take this opportunity today to speak about the reserve force of 2002, and bring you up to date on some recent changes and innovations.

What the chief of reserves and cadets does behind the scenes in pan-reserve policy and processes indirectly affects reserve recruitment and retention, and therefore operational readiness. Reserve employment has evolved, and reserve roles, missions, and training are determined by environmentally specific needs. Each of the reserve elements is united by a common Canadian Forces training, but is also unique due to environmental affiliation, and therefore there are differences in integration, training, employment, and composition.

Before I go any further, it's important to note that when I use the term “reserve force” I am being inclusive of all members of this group, including the primary reserve--the army, navy, air force, communications, and legal and health services--as well as the supplementary reserve, cadet instructor cadre, and the Canadian rangers. This group represents over 80,000 members of the Canadian Forces.

With me here today are two members of my team. Brigadier General Paul Hussey was introduced as the director of general reserves and cadets, and is a regular force officer who manages the chief of reserves and cadets division here in Ottawa on a daily basis. Navy Captain Jennifer Bennett is the director of reserves, and is also a reservist herself. We three represent the small part of the division that is made up of three directorates: the directorate of cadets, the directorate of reserves, and the Canadian Forces Liaison Council.

Members of the reserve force are often referred to as “citizen soldiers” or “twice the citizen”. They are members of our society who have chosen to serve Canada through voluntary, part-time military service. They are drawn from virtually every aspect of our society, and bring to the forces a vast array of skills, education, and knowledge, in addition to those developed through military training.

It is important to note that for the majority of reservists, military service is essentially a part-time activity. Reservists are able to make a significant contribution to the defence team while accommodating the demands of a civilian career or school and family, in addition to the military.

I should emphasize as well the significance of reserve diversity, gender equity, and geographic distribution. Reserve units are located in 342 communities from coast to coast, and as far north as Grise Fiord. Add to that 1,131 cadet units and you can certainly understand that with that large a geographic expanse we bring the Canadian Forces direct exposure to the diverse demographics in this country.

The current manning shortfall in the regular force has meant that a greater number of reservists are working full-time in direct day-to-day support. The current pace of operations has had a dramatic impact on the number of duty tours that may be required of individual service members.

Reservists are key to providing cost-effective surge capability to the Canadian Forces, bringing valuable personnel and civilian skills, in addition to military training. As of this week, 857 reservists are serving in operations, and thousands of others are working in full-time support, training, and supernumerary positions. We consistently have more volunteers for operational missions than are required. The opportunity for peacekeeping duties motivates reservists, enhances their qualifications and capabilities, and creates a cadre of experienced reservists in local units.

Current policies dictate that up to 20% of deployed forces may be composed of reservists, directly augmenting regular force deployments. While reservists have normally provided a surge capability, we will be sending a company composed solely of reservists from land forces western area to Bosnia this September. We have done this to a certain extent before, with reserve-heavy groups in Cyprus and Yugoslavia.

¹ (1535)

Of course, operational experience is not restricted to international operations. Reservists have played an even greater role in domestic operations. As Canada has watched, reservists have answered the call in the floods in Winnipeg and Saguenay, the ice storms, and Swiss Air flight 111. Reservists in great numbers were behind the scenes and on standby for new year's eve on December 31, 1999. In fact, over 50% of the communications reserve personnel were employed for one month at high readiness. All of these reservists were able to arrange for voluntary employer support, with assistance from the Canadian Forces Liaison Council, to allow them time off without penalty for training in this specific employment on operations.

Now more than ever the climate is right for review and change within the reserve, and I can certainly confirm that things have changed significantly over my time in the reserve force. Recent world events have brought reserve capabilities and contributions to the forefront and raised questions of compulsory call-out and active duty for specified reserve personnel. One of the major changes in recent months has been the action on job protection legislation included as part of Bill C-42. Proposed amendments to the National Defence Act provide for job protection measures for reservists activated by the government in an emergency. This will provide peace of mind to reserve members of the total force who may be compelled to serve through Order in Council.

The report of the special commission on the restructuring of the reserves published in October 1995 noted a number of deficiencies in reserve administration and management and made a variety of recommendations aimed at making the reserves a more viable and effective institution. In response to this report, among other activities the army began the land forces reserve restructuring process designed to revitalize the army reserve.

In November 1999 the Vice-Chief of Defence Staff strategic force structure guidance established a reserve mission consisting of three tasks: providing individual and formed-unit augmentation at specific states of readiness for operations across the spectrum of conflict in order to enable the Canadian Forces to mount and sustain operations; building and maintaining links between the Canadian Forces and local communities; and expanding as directed to achieve national mobilization objectives.

This guidance has been used to determine the established strength, potentially environmentally specific roles in missions, and mobilization plans for the reserves. As I mentioned earlier, our daily work in the division is on pan-reserve policies and human resource initiatives designed to accommodate our part-time Canadian Forces members. We are directly linked into a number of major human resource projects focused on enhancing recruiting and retention in the Canadian Forces. The key to success for these major projects is the synergy and direct link between both components of the Canadian Forces. This is essential, as any proposed changes to human resource policies in the regular force may have a direct impact on the reserves.

The most pressing challenge that employers in all sectors face is the recruitment of new employees and the retention of skilled members. From the outset, reserve challenges and concerns have been included in the Canadian Forces-wide recruiting and retention project and continue today. Recent advertisements reflect a new brand for the Canadian Forces, one that emphasizes world-class technology, challenge, pride, and professionalism. Reserve employment is featured side by side with regular-force opportunities and career options.

Traditionally the reserve force has had a record of success in attracting personnel, and we will surpass our targets for this past fiscal year because of this enhanced recruiting drive and augmentation of the Canadian Forces recruiting organization by a great number of military personnel and a broad range of additional resources. However, there were long delays in processing the requests that needed to be addressed to allow more efficient enrolment in the reserves or for component transfers.

We have implemented a comprehensive plan to attract, recruit, process, and train an expanded intake of officers and non-commissioned members to restore the strength of the reserve to its authorized level. The Canadian Forces have worked diligently to streamline the administration of the recruiting process to reduce the bottlenecks and delays. Some of the processes have been devolved to the reserve units, and we have seen positive progress in both regular and reserve force numbers in this time of enrolment.

¹ (1540)

Additionally, component transfers are under review and will be improved to provide a more seamless transition from the primary reserve to the regular force and vice versa. Skilled members of the Canadian Forces are vital to both components and we must ensure maximum efficiency of this transfer process.

Education reimbursement for officers and non-commissioned members in initial degree programs at college and university has been introduced to attract and retrain reserve personnel, and partnerships with colleges have been developed to recognize and accredit civilian levels of competency and education.

While recruiting is a challenge to both the regular and reserve forces, retention is a far greater concern to the reserve. Current rates of attrition range by element, but the average is about 20% in the first five years. This is five times higher than the regular force, and this is a problem that must be addressed by the reserve community.

Attrition is at its highest in the first three years of reserve service. The reasons for leaving the reserve include lack of meaningful training in unit, limited opportunities for employment and advancement, conflict with civilian commitments, and the need for a part-time job with more hours and predictable employment.

We will continue to work with the environments to address the problems of unit training restrictions and disappointment, unpredictability of employment and training, and competing demands for valuable time. Over the past two years we have conducted a comprehensive review of reserve human resource policies with the goal of enhancing reserve attraction, employment, qualities of life, and retention. Some of the major initiatives include the educational reimbursement for primary reserve members, up to $8,000 for an initial degree; regular force pay and benefits for all reserve personnel on operations, whether they're domestic or overseas; improved access to benefits and personnel support programs for part-time reservists; and a reserve pension plan now under development for implementation in 2005, under the Canadian Forces white paper, that will allow for the ease of portability between full-time and part-time service in the regular and reserve force, considering the unique nature of the reserve service.

The reserve component is becoming better integrated into the defence team and the reserve voice is loud and clear on all major committees and working groups. Reservists have proven we are capable of meeting challenges head on. We are equally capable of augmenting the regular force while serving side by side as we are serving in reserve-specific roles in missions. The latter does not, of course, come with an increased requirement for resources.

Members of SCONDVA, I have covered only a small portion of the activity for which we are responsible. I hope I've piqued your interest and demonstrated that these are indeed interesting, challenging, and exciting times for the chief of reserves and cadets division and the reserve personnel. There is much to share with groups such as yourself. I welcome not only your questions, but your comments and suggestions.

Thank you for the opportunity to be here.

The Chair: Thank you very much, Admiral.

General or Captain, do you have any comments that you'd like to make? I presume you're here as resource people for the admiral.

Brigadier General Paul R. Hussey (Director General of Reserves and Cadets, Department of National Defence): Moral support.

¹ (1545)

The Chair: Moral support. Okay. That's always important as well.

We'll go to our questioners then. Mr. Anders, seven minutes.

Mr. Rob Anders (Calgary West, Canadian Alliance): Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

There was a mention in your presentation of over 80,000 members of the Canadian Forces being involved with the reserves. Is that what you would quote to be the specific strength of the reserves today? On top of that, what is specifically the strength of the militia or the land force reserves, air reserves, naval reserves? Would you break down the components, please.

RAdm Raymond Zuliani: First of all, 80,000 is not the strength of the reserves; that's all of the components, including the rangers, the cadets, the primary reserve, the supplementary reserve.

As to the breakdown in terms of specific work, it's in the neighbourhood of 23,000 altogether with the reserves. Standing strength primary reserve is about 26,000. It's organized in the elements. The naval reserve is established at 5,400 and has a strength of about 3,750 at this present time. The army reserve is established at 18,500 and has a strength of about 15,300 presently. The air reserve has an establishment of 3,000 and currently has 2,100 or 2,200 in its strength. The communication reserve is established at 2,000 and currently has 2,010 members. The health services reserve, which is established at 1,500, has 822 currently in that structure.

Mr. Rob Anders: Okay. That's great. Thank you.

I'm told that the strength of the militia oscillates over the course of the year. I'm wondering if that's correct. Is there a difference at different times of the year? For example, I understand that the militia's numbers would be much lower in the winter than they are in the summer. Is that correct?

RAdm Raymond Zuliani: There is an oscillation in terms of numbers on all the reserves, not just within the militia but in the entire reserve force, as we bring in the new recruits and get them trained up. The attrition rate, as I mentioned in my opening remarks, tends to be about 20%. As some leave and some come, there seems to be a little bit of oscillation in those numbers, for sure.

Mr. Rob Anders: So the army number you have right now, the 15,300, would that be the high or would that be the low of its oscillation?

RAdm Raymond Zuliani: It would be at the high end of its oscillation right now.

Mr. Rob Anders: What would be the low end of the army oscillation?

RAdm Raymond Zuliani: It would depend; probably around the 13,000 mark.

Mr. Rob Anders: Okay. If the militia were to be called out, what's the legal obligation of the reserve soldiers to respond? In other words, under what circumstances do reserve soldiers have a legal obligation to respond?

RAdm Raymond Zuliani: First of all, all service within the reserve is voluntary. In terms of their legal obligation to respond, it would require an Order in Council to mandate the callout of reserve service. That would then mandate them to come to the call of the service. What we find, though, is that when there are requirements for reserve service, whether it be domestic operations or peacekeeping operations, and we put out a call voluntarily, we tend to get more reservists responding to the call voluntarily than there are requirements for reserves. It goes about three to one, give or take, depending on the operation.

Mr. Rob Anders: Okay. My understanding is that there are nominally supposed to be 51 infantry battalions in the militia, and that the normal strength of an infantry battalion is between 700 and 900 soldiers. Is that about correct?

RAdm Raymond Zuliani: [Inaudible--Editor].

Mr. Rob Anders: Okay. What's the average strength of those 51 infantry battalions?

RAdm Raymond Zuliani: I'm not sure I have that off the top of my head, but certainly we can get that for you. I know the land forces are presently restructuring, so there's some information there that we don't have at this point, but I can certainly get that for you.

Mr. Rob Anders: Do you have an idea of what the smallest number of soldiers that we have in a militia infantry battalion today would be?

RAdm Raymond Zuliani: Sorry, I don't have that information.

Mr. Rob Anders: What percentage of those personnel in our militia infantry battalions are fully trained? In other words, they've gone through all the training courses required.

RAdm Raymond Zuliani: Specifically to the militia, I can't answer, but certainly we're having an intake of about a thousand reservists per year, and those are the ones who would be under training. So nominally, if you expected reservists to be.... It depends on what you mean by fully trained, because there are some differences in terms of the standards of training. The reserve in itself trains to general specifications at both the officer level and the NCM level, but prior to them being deployed, there would be a requirement for them to take additional training so that they would be up to the standard required for a specific deployment. So when you talk about trained reserves, it depends on which state of readiness you're talking about having them trained to.

¹ (1550)

Mr. Rob Anders: How many of these infantry battalions could field a company, about 150 fully trained soldiers?

RAdm Raymond Zuliani: I'm sorry, I don't have that kind of information off the top of my head.

Mr. Rob Anders: I imagine you wouldn't have this either then, but how many could field a platoon, say 32 men, fully trained?

RAdm Raymond Zuliani: I don't have those details, but as Captain Bennett has just indicated to me, General Jeffrey and General Fitch are coming to appear before you in March, I believe, and they will have those specific numbers for the army reserve.

The Chair: If it helps, Mr. Anders, they'll be here on March 19. If you have a list of detailed questions, maybe what we could do is just table them with the clerk. I'm sure we'll be able to get answers for you.

Mr. Rob Anders: Well, I'll switch off that line of questioning. I still have time, I take it?

The Chair: You have 45 seconds, so you'd better make it fast.

Mr. Rob Anders: Okay.

How many of our maritime coastal defence vessels do we maintain at full readiness?

RAdm Raymond Zuliani: Again, that's in the purview of the commander of the navy, but of the 12, there are 10 that are being deployed at a state of readiness. It depends on what you mean by full readiness. When the MCDVs are deployed, or employed, they're at the state of readiness required for the mission at task. The commander of the navy can tell you that.

Mr. Rob Anders: Is that because of a shortage of trained naval reservists to man the vessels?

RAdm Raymond Zuliani: No. I believe it's a function of the refit cycle. One ship has to go down for planned maintenance, so of the 12, we have 10 in operation at any time.

The Chair: I'm sorry to cut you off there, Mr. Anders. But as Mr. O'Reilly duly observed, we may have a shortage of questioners here this afternoon, so there'll be lots of opportunity.

Monsieur Bachand.

[Translation]

Mr. Claude Bachand (Saint-Jean, BQ): Thank you, Mr. Chair.

To begin, I congratulate you on your presentation. I have been a member of this committee for years, and the reserves remain for me, if not a mystery, at least a gray area. So, I appreciate your presence here today, because, together, we can perhaps manage to untangle it.

You said earlier that Captain Bennett was part of the reserves. You, Mr. Zuliani and Mr. Hussey, are you also part of the reserves or are you part of the regular forces?

[English]

RAdm Raymond Zuliani: Both Captain Bennett and myself are in the reserves. Brigadier General Hussey is in the regular force.

[Translation]

Mr. Claude Bachand: Which one of you is hierarchically higher in the reserves? They say you are the chief, Mr. Zuliani; are you in charge of the reserves and the cadets in Canada?

[English]

RAdm Raymond Zuliani: Yes, I'm responsible for the reserve and the cadets.

[Translation]

Mr. Claude Bachand: In the military hierarchy, who are your superiors? General Henault is at the top of the ladder. Is there someone between you and him or do you report to him?

[English]

RAdm Raymond Zuliani: I report directly to the Vice-Chief of the Defence Staff, General Macdonald, and I have a responsibility to advise the Chief of the Defence Staff, General Henault, on reserve matters. I do that by sitting on the Armed Forces Council.

[Translation]

Mr. Claude Bachand: That will do for the hierarchical chain.

Now, let's talk about the reserves themselves. I trained at Valcartier with the Royal 22^nd Regiment last summer, as part of a deployment to Bosnia. There were indeed militiamen and reservists. Am I wrong when I get the feeling that within the army, they seem to consider the reservists as second-class soldiers? I would like to explain myself on that subject because I would not want to devalue your role.

¹ (1555)

[English]

RAdm Raymond Zuliani: Basically, it depends on the environment as to how the reserve and the regular force are trained. But in the recent past there has been more of an integration in terms of the training and the requirements so that both the regular force and reserve members are being trained to the same standard and with the same kinds of coursings and they're fairly interchangeable. Prior to an operation they will train together. They'll be either intermingled or, as we're doing in Roto 11, we may send a totally reserve unit to the theatre of operations. So it can be a mixture of each, and it's environmentally dependent.

[Translation]

Mr. Claude Bachand: Mr. Chair. I would only like to mention a very important detail as we are all colleagues here. I have just been advised of the following piece of news: an Air India airplane is currently being escorted by F-18 fighters. There is a suspicious passenger aboard. As soon as they have crossed the Atlantic Ocean, American F-18s will take over to escort it to New Your, where the FBI will meet the plane. I have no more details and but I wanted to let you know about this. I think it is the type of event that we must inform each other of, when it is brought to our attention.

Now, regarding legislative concerns, am I incorrect or would it promote recruitment to the reserves if we members could pass a law which would not only allow reservists to leave their jobs when called up by the army but would also guarantee job protection for their return to work? What often happens is that an employer agrees to let an employee go but does not feel obligated to take him back.

Do you think a legislative initiative obligating employers to take back militiamen or reservists who are engaged in military service would be useful for recruiting to the militia?

[English]

RAdm Raymond Zuliani: Presently we have the Canadian Forces Liaison Council, which works cooperatively. It's a ministerially appointed committee of businessmen that works with Canadian business and employers to engender, or garner, voluntary support for reserve service. It seems to be, from our perspective, working very well in terms of providing reservists with opportunities to undertake either training or operations without the legal legislative weight behind it.

That council, which works directly for me, has also been investigating other nations that have legislated protection for reservists. It's a double-edged sword sometimes. Even though you have the legislative security, and it's against the law to discriminate against the hiring of reservists, it seems to work well with the larger companies but with the smaller companies it doesn't tend to be as effective.

So we're finding that in Canada our volunteer employer support for volunteer service seems to be making the grade. We're in fact getting more reservists than we need when we call them for operations, at any rate.

The Chair: You have another minute or so, Mr. Bachand.

[Translation]

Mr. Claude Bachand: Mr. Zuliani, I want to get back to the importance of mixing the regular forces with the forces of the militia because I think I saw that in platoon assaults - and I'm a bit of a neophyte on the matter-, from the point of view of the militiamen, the performance was just slightly less effective than that of the regular forces. I can understand that because, the regular forces are, after all, professionals. They are people who are always in the process of training, etc.

Am I mistaken? Would you refute the argument according to which the reservists or the militiamen are second-class force compared to the regular force? Are you in agreement with this statement or do you reject it?

º (1600)

[English]

RAdm Raymond Zuliani: I wouldn't term them as second-class soldiers. What I would term them as is soldiers at a different state of readiness, and they would undertake the training that they would require to be employed in whatever operation that was defined. It's been proven time and time again that whenever we put the challenge in front of the reservists to come up with being trained to that level of expertise they far surpass it. And every time we've deployed them when they worked side by side with the regular force counterparts they have in fact proven to be as effective if not more so.

[Translation]

Mr. Claude Bachand: Thank you.

[English]

The Chair: Thank you, Mr. Bachand.

Mr. Wood.

Mr. Bob Wood (Nipissing, Lib.): Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Admiral, I understand, in looking over some of this stuff, that you've just completed a review of the administrative rules that are governing the reserve service and that the classes of service are being rationalized to ensure they're based on equally fair principles. Isn't this going to result in reducing the pay of some reservist personnel? We've had some concern about that being brought to our attention. Is this not being interpreted as an unfair pay cut for reservists?

RAdm Raymond Zuliani: Not at all. What we're trying to do with the rationalization of the reserve forces terms of service is to put into a context the kinds of remuneration we give to reservists based on the kinds of jobs they would do. Presently we have a number of different classes of service, and people who fill the regular force positions right now are termed class-C reservists and they get a regular force rate of compensation for that particular activity.

There are about 780 or 790 reservists in that kind of situation where they're being recompensed at regular force rates of pay, but there is a difference in terms of reserve and regular liabilities to serve. We've tried to rationalize it and put forward some proposed way ahead for compensation for reservists, in that when reservists are utilized on operations--in other words, in the same context as their regular force counterparts--then they would receive equivalent pay and benefits to what their regular force counterpart would receive. When they're doing reserve-specific jobs, then they would get a reserve rate of pay, which was pegged in 1997 at 85%. That's under review right now, but that's where the reserve rate of pay comes into play.

For example, we have full-time-employed reservists, about 1,000 of them, who are receiving reserve rates of pay now, but with the proposed way ahead when they would be deemed to be in operations--for example, the members in the maritime coastal defence vessels--they would then be put on to the class-C employment status and be receiving full pay and benefits just like their regular force counterparts because they are operationally deployed.

So it's not a cost-cutting measure. It's a rationalization of the job that we do as reservists and the employment that we use as reservists.

Mr. Bob Wood: I would like to ask about something else you mentioned. Obviously the pay and benefits are different from the regular force. I'd just like your opinion on how you feel this impacts on retention, when we don't have any real pension plan in place for a reservist. You mentioned in your statement, I believe, the deployment of a plan. I'd just like to know more about it. What is in place now? What is the future going to look like for the reserve pension plan?

RAdm Raymond Zuliani: Where are we going with the reserve pension plan? Since the last SCONDVA report recommended we have a reserve pension plan, we in fact have acted on that at the direction of ADM (HR-MIL). As opposed to running a stand-alone reserve pension plan, we're working within the Canadian Forces ADM (HR-MIL) policy group to open up the Canadian Forces pension plan to accommodate both reserve or part-time and full-time employment, which would also help us in terms of the component transfer and the ability to move between full-time and part-time services.

As a reservist, when this comes to fruition--we have a legislative window in 2004 and we're going to try to have it ready for 2005--when the pension plan comes into place, then you can gain benefits in the plan, whether you're regular force or reserve. So it's all in one plan.

When you talk about retention, right now what we have in the interim, as a place-marker, is the reserve force retirement gratuity, which recognizes long service. A reservist who stays in for 10 years qualifies for it from between 10 and 30 years and has a one-time payout at the end of his or her 30 years for service within the reserves.

º (1605)

Mr. Bob Wood: I see. Do you feel that the reserves are well positioned to achieve the roles they have been assigned?

RAdm Raymond Zuliani: I think quite honestly that the reserves are in an extremely good position as a whole. But again they're elemental, because the land forces reserves are, in terms of their land forces restructuring, redefining what roles and missions the army or the militia is going to do. So it's not a one-size-fits-all, because the naval reserve has a defined role and mission and approaches the way it employs its reserves differently from how the army or how the air force or how the communication does. But certainly within the environments, when they're called upon to be given specific roles and missions, or if they're used to augment a regular force position where we get breadth to the capability, the reserves certainly are well positioned to do that.

Mr. Bob Wood: In your personal opinion, Admiral, are there roles the reserves can take on in the future that are maybe better suited to reserves? Here I'm thinking of maybe homeland defence or something like that.

RAdm Raymond Zuliani: Certainly in the broader scope of things, reserves are well positioned across the country, as you have indicated, to be placed for things such as homeland defence. I'm quite sure that is part of the discussions that are going on with the land forces restructuring in terms of defining specific roles and missions they would like to pursue.

Mr. Bob Wood: You mentioned Bill C-42, and we're aware that this includes job protection legislation for reservists who are compelled to serve in the event of an emergency. I want to ask you if this complements what you've been doing up until now for voluntary support. I also want to know more about the Canadian Forces Liaison Council. Who are they and what do they do?

RAdm Raymond Zuliani: The Canadian Forces Liaison Council is a two-pronged organization. One is a ministerial appointment, with the member being John Eaton. John Eaton is the chair of the liaison council, which is a group of influential business people who work toward engendering employer support. The executive director, Léo Desmarteau, works in my division and does the day-to-day things. They're responsible for things such as the ExecuTrek program where we bring civilian employers and civilian community leaders together with reservists and give them an opportunity to interchange in terms of the kind of training they undertake. The civilian employer can then take a look at the reservist and see that there are some skill sets that person can bring back into the civilian employ. They see the connectivity of the kinds of training we offer to the reservist and how they can transfer that training back into their civilian subset. So that's working very well.

The Bill C-42 legislation really closes a loop for reservists. It says if you mandate me to come out and serve, the government is standing behind me saying I'm going to make that mandate. Then I have some peace of mind that says I'm going to be able to leave my job and come back and get that at the end of the day after I've completed my service. So they work hand in hand together.

The Chair: Thank you.

Mr. Anders.

Mr. Rob Anders: Do you have a package on the liaison council we can leave with SCONDVA?

BGen Paul R. Hussey: Sure.

The Chair: Thank you.

Mr. Rob Anders: I'm going to keep on with a few more specific questions, and if you can't answer them, well, that's life. I'll move on to other ones.

I understand that officially there are 18 armoured regiments in the militia and that the normal full strength of an armoured regiment is about 500 to 700 soldiers. Is that about right?

RAdm Raymond Zuliani: I believe so, but again, those are areas beyond my expertise.

Mr. Rob Anders: Okay, that's all right.

What is the average strength of these 18 militia armoured regiments?

RAdm Raymond Zuliani: Again, I'm sorry, I don't have that kind of information.

Mr. Rob Anders: Okay. I'm going to ask these other four, and if you can't answer them, that's life, but I'll get them on the record because that's what I'm here to do.

What percentage of those personnel in our militia armoured regiments are fully trained soldiers who have gone through all the training courses required?

Number two, how many of the 18 regiments have a full complement of armoured vehicles?

Number three, how many can field a full squadron of armoured vehicles? How many can field a troop of armoured vehicles, and how many cannot field even a troop of armoured vehicles?

º (1610)

RAdm Raymond Zuliani: Really, it's not within my purview, because that really is an army reserve.... It's an operational readiness requirement that the commander of the army has to be able answer for.

Mr. Rob Anders: Okay, fair enough.

To what extent is the air force dependent on reservists who perform ground-crew and other similar duties to fulfil its missions?

RAdm Raymond Zuliani: Again, I can't speak specifically to the amount that is required, but certainly I can talk about the kinds of structures the air force uses in employment of its reserves. It's a combination of reserve and regular force in a total force environment. But I can't give you the percentages of each of the....

Mr. Rob Anders: Okay.

Have the problems that caused long delays in paying reservists been resolved?

RAdm Raymond Zuliani: For the most part, yes, the pay issues have been fixed.

A voice: They seem to have dried up.

RAdm Raymond Zuliani: Yes, a few years ago I was getting a number of complaints about reserve pay, but certainly we haven't received those kinds of issues in our dealings with reservists.

Mr. Rob Anders: You say “years”. Do you mean years, or do you mean months?

RAdm Raymond Zuliani: A few years ago we were getting those complaints. I don't hear them now.

Mr. Rob Anders: Okay, that's interesting.

The Chair: So the issue has been resolved for a couple of years now?

RAdm Raymond Zuliani: Yes, as far as we're concerned.

Mr. Rob Anders: Okay. I think we have another member of the committee who might beg to differ with that, but she's not here today.

Some hon. members: Oh, oh!

Mr. Rob Anders: With regard to the Canadian Ranger program that comes under your purview, what percentage of that would be Inuit?

RAdm Raymond Zuliani: It's fairly large, actually. We'll get back to you with the exact figures, but it's pretty high.

Mr. Rob Anders: Pretty high.

RAdm Raymond Zuliani: About 80% are aboriginal.

Mr. Rob Anders: Eighty percent are aboriginal. That may not mean strictly Inuit, but--

RAdm Raymond Zuliani: Right.

Mr. Rob Anders: Okay.

This is a softball one for you, since we don't have the information for the other ones, I guess. You served with the NATO Defence College in Rome and Brussels and you also attended National Defence College at Kingston. Could you make any comparisons for me with regard to those and maybe indicate some things you saw in Rome or in Brussels that you didn't see in Kingston and that you think Canada could use to augment its program?

RAdm Raymond Zuliani: The courses I served on in NATO in Brussels and in Rome were basically two-week programs that were case-specific. The NDC program I covered in Kingston was a year-long course, so it's very hard to make the comparisons. They're really two different educational experiences.

The general just reminded me that we still are plugged into NATO, in that I sit on the NRFC--the NATO Reserve Force Commanders--meeting that we hold twice a year, and we do send reservists on NATO-sponsored courses as well.

Mr. Rob Anders: Okay.

Do you think the reserves should have a separate budget from the regular forces?

RAdm Raymond Zuliani: The thing about funding reservists is, because it belongs to the environment, that question is more appropriately directed to the people responsible for the production of the reserve force. We talk about reserves in terms of a policy perspective. The people who are responsible for the employment, training, and deployment of the reserves are the environmental commanders, so I would like to defer that question to them.

The Chair: Mr. Anders, I'm going to have to cut you off here, but I'm sure there will be lots of time for more questions.

Monsieur Bachand.

º (1615)

[Translation]

Mr. Claude Bachand: Thank you.

Mr. Zuliani, I am looking at the report of the Minister's Monitoring Committee on Change in the Department of National Defence and Canadian Forces. It is a final report which came out in 1999. I would like us to update ourselves on the changes which had been requested and I would also like to clarify the various terms which we find therein because I have a bit of difficulty figuring it out.

There is a resolution here which says, regarding the reserves and the cadets: “Districts be eliminated and replaced by Militia Brigade Groups.” it also says, in the same document: “14 Districts replaced by 10 Brigade Groups in 97. Reduce to 9 Brigade Groups in Nov 99.”

First of all, can you tell me if that has been done and can you illustrate this in concrete terms? What kind of change is represented by going from 14 districts to 9 Brigade Groups?

[English]

RAdm Raymond Zuliani: That's really a structuring of the land forces in terms of what they're doing. I think what you're referring to is probably their first iteration of it. I'm not sure where that status is, but I know Major General Fitch, when he comes here, is tasked with the responsibility of land forces restructuring, and he can certainly clarify that for you.

[Translation]

Mr. Claude Bachand: I understand, but is what you are telling me applicable only to the ground forces? Is that what I am to understand?

[English]

RAdm Raymond Zuliani: It applies to the army reserve.

[Translation]

Mr. Claude Bachand: Perfect. Who is going to come and brief us on that? Will it be General Fitch?

[English]

RAdm Raymond Zuliani: It's General Fitch and General Jeffrey. General Jeffrey is the commander of the army, and General Fitch is the project manager for land forces restructuring.

[Translation]

Mr. Claude Bachand: I understand. In the same document, it is recommended: “That every Militia unit should be guaranteed funding of 4 days per month for each effective member during the period September-May.”

Were those funds for the Militia allotted, that is four days per month for each effective member? Is that the current ratio?

[English]

RAdm Raymond Zuliani: I can't answer whether or not they were given that. That's part of their structural review and how they fund their particular elemental reservists. The navy does it one way, the army does it one way, and the air force does it another.

[Translation]

Mr. Claude Bachand: Once again, I probably should be asking this question of Mr. Fitch and Mr. Jeffrey, shouldn't I?

[English]

RAdm Raymond Zuliani: That's right.

[Translation]

Mr. Claude Bachand: I have no more questions at the moment. I will give the floor to my colleague, O'Reilly.

[English]

The Chair: Okay.

Mr. O'Reilly.

Mr. John O'Reilly (Haliburton--Victoria--Brock, Lib.): Thank you very much.

Thank you for attending today. I'm going to take this opportunity just to tell you that our committee normally has a full contingent, but today is the day before the break, so you picked the black marble when you came here today. The best are here, the people who are here are the best. Normally we have a full contingent, but it's like summer holidays sometimes.

By the way, I was a reservist for a short time in my life, and I was a cadet for an even shorter time. With the change in the reserve program I was in, the 45th Medium Battery, Royal Canadian Artillery, we went from firing howitzers to talking on radios. When the band went out, I went out for the drum corps band and played with it for ten years. So I don't have that much military experience--I wouldn't want to consider that military experience--but I did go to two boot camps, so I know what they are.

I wanted to specifically talk about the Reserves 2000 role. I believe they have a role in shaping some of the policy. Specifically on the restructuring, a couple of us met today with an honorary colonel, who has a lot of knowledge in the reserves. I went to Bosnia with an honorary colonel, which was well received. I found that there were a number of reservists in Bosnia. They were highly trained, very efficient, fit right in. You wouldn't know they were reservists unless they told you. I know they play an active role right now and I know they're playing a more active role.

I'm interested in what kinds of improvements have happened out of the quality-of-life report. It sounds like pay and benefits now are not a problem, and I'm glad to hear that. I never did get my last paycheque. I'm not asking for it, but....

Mr. Rob Anders: It's in the mail.

Mr. John O'Reilly: Yes, it's in the mail. Thanks, Rob.

What can you do or what's the solution for the long wait for enrolment? Is there an easy solution to that?

º (1620)

RAdm Raymond Zuliani: You're talking about the recruiting, the process. We're working very hard with the recruiting organization to streamline that process. We've taken away some of the bottlenecks, and we're looking at streamlining it even further. We've deferred or devolved to the reserve unit some of the responsibilities, and that seems to have cleaned it up a little bit. Trying to get a clean application that has all the i's dotted and the t 's crossed should take no more than seven days, and we're certainly shooting for that right now.

Mr. John O'Reilly: Bill C-42, some effects I thought about when we did the restructuring of the reserves when I was on that committee.... The reserves were advising us at that time that they didn't want job security. They didn't want to have their employers forced to secure their jobs because they felt it would affect the hiring practices of employers. They felt that if a person had the choice between a reservist and another person who wasn't a reservist, the qualifications of the reservist would be set aside because they could be called up and they would still have to guarantee their job. That would be a restriction particularly to small employers. You may be able to fit it into large corporations, but not small employers. I just wondered what your thoughts were on that.

RAdm Raymond Zuliani: There's been a lot of discussion about employer support. Certainly our Canadian Forces Liaison Council has worked diligently in doing that. We have some 3,000 employers now signed up to provide employer support for reservists.

The fact of the matter is that we haven't really mandated reservists to respond to a call to arms since 1939. The legislation that would enable them to be mandated into service is really addressed by the Bill C-42 legislation, which protects their rights to return to their jobs if and when that Order in Council is evoked.

Mr. John O'Reilly: I know you've touched on the pension plan, but when would a reservist vest into a plan? In any pension plan you have to have a minimum amount of service before you're vested into it. In Parliament it's six years. In some places, even with self-directed RRSPs, the employee and employer side is different and the employee has to have maybe five or six years of service before they vest into the plan, no matter how much money the employer or the employees put in, or none.

I wanted to know how much study has been done on this. When you talk about a reservist having ten to thirty years and getting a payout at the end, will there be a provision for them to roll whatever service they've had retroactively into a pension plan? Would that be studied?

If you take the case of a call-up for a reservist to serve in a six-month rotation on a demand basis, wouldn't they automatically be vested into the pension plan? I know they're into the benefits and so forth, but is that a too technical question?

RAdm Raymond Zuliani: It's not too technical. In fact, General Hussey sits on the committee that is looking at the pension plan and has a lot of the details you're asking for, so I'll ask him to address that question for you.

BGen Paul R. Hussey: We're going for vesting in the pension plans at the two-year point in an individual's service, be it part-time, a collection, according to some formula of two years' equivalency, or full-time.

The pension plan will be one pension plan with a full-time stream and a part-time stream. The calculation of pension is different, depending on which stream you find yourself in throughout a career. So once you're in the plan you can collect pensionable time according to two different formulas, depending on what you're doing, whether you're called up for six months or whether you've been called for full-time service.

The options at the end in terms of rolling in everything like that will be according to the Income Tax Act and all the other legislation that governs government pensions.

º (1625)

The Chair: Thank you, Mr. O'Reilly.

Mr. Anders.

Mr. John O'Reilly: I'll come back to you on the next round.

Mr. Rob Anders: I'm wondering whether or not you've had a chance to read Reserves 2000, which was put out by Mr. Mannix in Calgary, and what your thoughts would be on that if you've read it.

RAdm Raymond Zuliani: I have not read that.

Mr. Rob Anders: From how many units do you normally have to pull soldiers to field a company of reservists say for one six-month rotation in Bosnia?

RAdm Raymond Zuliani: Again, I can't answer those questions that are of an operational nature, because they really belong to the purview of the commander of the army. I would really only be speculating at best if I gave you an answer.

Mr. Rob Anders: How about a speculation?

RAdm Raymond Zuliani: Speculation. It's still volunteers. Because the nature of reserve service is voluntary, it could vary, depending on the economic conditions of the day, who had jobs, who was available. There are so many variables that it would be very difficult to give you a hard and fast answer on that.

Mr. Rob Anders: When I--

The Chair: I think we're getting further advice here.

Admiral.

RAdm Raymond Zuliani: As the director of reserves has just reminded me, the Roto 11, the group we are sending to Bosnia in September, is drawn specifically from Land Forces Western Area, so the reservists who would come to fill that company size would come just from the Land Forces Western Area on a volunteer basis. And 15 is Land Forces Central Area. So on the 15th rotation it would be Land Forces Central Area. And we need that kind of lead time, quite honestly, because we're putting that out there now so that people can plan their reserve careers and their availability over a longer period of time.

Mr. Rob Anders: And do you know how many units, for example, they had to pull from Land Forces Western Area in that circumstance?

RAdm Raymond Zuliani: Approximately eleven.

Mr. Rob Anders: When I was in Utrecht in the Netherlands I stopped by one of the recruiting stations there and I was very impressed. I take an interest in military affairs, as does everybody on this committee, I think, and I've never seen us have recruiting stations like those I saw in the Netherlands. I'm wondering where you think some of your best recruiting stations are so I might be able to go and take a look at those. And do you have any thoughts on recruiting stations?

The Chair: For the benefit of the committee, Mr. Anders, maybe you could tell us a little bit about the recruiting stations.

Mr. Rob Anders: Not right now.

The Chair: Okay.

Captain Jennifer J. Bennett (Director of Reserves, Department of National Defence): The recruiting centres in Canada are considered on a national basis. We are going through a process right now of invigorating the recruiting process nationwide. Each recruiting station is fitted out with the same type of equipment. There are increased levels of staff and resources, depending on the traditional interest or the record of attraction in that area. As the economy changes in certain areas, some recruiting centres are busier than others. We also have a combination of full recruiting centres and recruiting detachments. There are differences between those. Some of those are based on the population base of the centre they're located in. Some of the larger centres also cater to satellite centres, so they have to have a more mobile set-up for that.

We're not restricting recruiting to the recruiting centre per se, but rather taking it to the community. We have come up with mobile displays that can be taken on the road. We are linked to the Canadian exhibition system. We also have Internet-based attraction now. We are enhancing our infrastructure on a national basis, rather than going with a particular emphasis in a certain centre and therefore missing targets in other areas.

Mr. Rob Anders: Where would your most effective recruiting station be? I am going to define that for you. Where do you get your biggest raw number of recruits from? What station is the most successful?

º (1630)

Capt (N) Jennifer Bennett: It depends on the community. Halifax is very successful in terms of the navy, much more so than Victoria is at the present time. The Canadian Forces Recruiting Group does have all of those statistics, and I can certainly get you the performance report for the recruiting centres. You also have to take into consideration the difference between a recruiting centre and a detachment. A detachment is a much smaller group. There are some successful centres, and Halifax has been particularly successful in terms of naval recruiting this past year.

Mr. Rob Anders: Good. That's something I'll check out.

When I was down in the United States I saw a lot more recruiting happening, for example, at career days at high schools and universities, that type of thing. I remember being drowned out on the parade square at Oklahoma State University when I was recruiting college Republicans. In all the years I attended university in Canada and recruited for my party on campus, I never saw a recruiter for the armed forces.

Capt (N) Jennifer Bennett: This past year we also invigorated that program of going into universities.

In comparing the American and Canadian approach to things, there are differences in terms of resources and the number of people.

Mr. Rob Anders: I understand that, but even the Dutch do a better job than we do.

Capt (N) Jennifer Bennett: We have certainly invigorated the program over this past year, and we are now seeing the results of that. The university and school program is where we are being more rigorous. As well we are providing an initial point of contact there and then using the Internet to a greater extent to allow people to get further information and to apply online. So while there might not be a static university recruiting centre, we are making visits to universities and educational institutions.

Mr. Rob Anders: You tell me you're out doing these things, but I've never actually seen a recruiter on campus. As I haven't seen one, do you feel you need more resources to do that?

Capt (N) Jennifer Bennett: Yes, we've identified that there is a need for increased resources for recruiting.

Mr. Rob Anders: I asked you for a successful example in terms of a fixed location. Whether you call it a centre or a detachment, I don't care. I'm looking for raw numbers. You said Halifax. Fair enough. Is there someone in the country who is a stellar recruiter in using your mobile display on campuses?

Capt (N) Jennifer Bennett: That is not our area of expertise. The reserve itself is in the attraction business. We are responsible for attraction, and recruiting centres do the processing for us.

In terms of our area of expertise, I can't name a regular force member or a reservist who is the top recruiter in the country.

The Chair: Mr. Anders, your time is up.

Getting back to my earlier point, in order to aid the discussion here in terms of getting facts out on the table, if there are particular things you saw at the Dutch recruiting station that you would like to share with us, we'd be happy to hear about them.

Mr. Rob Anders: Maybe when I don't have witnesses to ask questions of.

The Chair: Some of the points you raised could be contrasted against what we're doing. Maybe we are doing some of those things and maybe we're not. Maybe we could learn from what you've seen, but I'm not going to twist your arm.

Mr. O'Reilly, go ahead.

Mr. John O'Reilly: Thank you very much.

I wanted to follow along on this recruitment thing. There was a mobile recruiting station out of the Toronto area that came to Lindsay two weeks ago. They bring a portable display and they have an expert there with some simulators types of things. I think it was very successful, both for the regular army and the reserves. It covered a broad scope. The programs you run at the fairs and exhibitions are very successful. The Lindsay fair had a recruiting station there with some simulators that people could play with, and it draws a lot of people.

So out of my home town...even though the reserves aren't there any more, we do have a cadet corps, but the reserves now are 50 miles away in the city of Oshawa. But we still have people who are attracted to the reserves, and I think when you don't have a local armoury to go to it's tough to recruit. When someone has to drive 50 miles once a week for training, or whatever, it sometimes is very difficult.

I would invite Mr. Anders to go to the recruiting centre in Toronto, for instance, and I think you'd be amazed at the facilities that are available there, and in Saint-Jean. There's a great recruiting display available in both places and a lot of history to be learned from it. So I was complimenting the recruiting that was being done, and it was being done through different vehicles, so I think we've turned the corner on it.

The Government of Ontario information centre in the town of Lindsay was actually providing space for the recruiting centre to set up for a day, and they were very busy. So I think we do have a good recruiting program.

My Dutch friend.... Oh, he doesn't speak Dutch. I thought he did.

I want to go back into this pension thing, because I'm fascinated by how this can be a recruiting tool also. I'll give you an example. I have an ambulance attendant I know of who is a paramedic, does defibrillation, and is a casualty simulator. By the way, I was a first aid instructor and did casualty simulation for the Ontario hospital plans, and so forth. That's something you don't want to know about, David, because I can make you look really bad.

This person is very highly trained as an ambulance attendant, paramedic, and so forth. He's in an OMERS pension plan. Every now and then he would take a rotation because a lot of the ambulance attendants now are working on contract so that they can work more hours and so forth. So he has to drive from Lindsay to Oshawa, 50 miles, once a month, I think, in order to keep his qualifications, yet he works full-time at the trade he's going to do in the army. I would have to think about how he could vest into a pension plan and still be in an OMERS pension plan, and still be an active reservist, but maybe take a rotation to Bosnia or Kandahar. I wondered if that's something anyone's given any thought to.

º (1635)

Capt Jennifer Bennett: I am an example. I am a teacher by trade, so I have a teachers pension plan. The pension plan is being developed to take into consideration reservists who are paying into existing pension plans, both from the point of view of having yet another set of deductions taken off pay as well as of the amount achievable under the Income Tax Act and regulations applying to amounts.

That is being considered, and it is one of the advantages of being under the Canadian Forces Superannuation Act as a program for both the regular force and reserve, as opposed to a stand-alone reserve pension plan. It makes the costs of administration for the plan less, and the plan more effective and efficient.

For members of the reserve force who will be working primarily part-time, the deduction will be between 4% and 5%, and that will be matched by employer contributions. So he would have no trouble, looking at the normal, average class A or part-time salary base; he wouldn't have any penalty against his other pension. For periods of full-time service of a six-month nature, or anywhere between one and three years as well, there is no problem.

Where you might run into difficulty is with anything past the five-year point. At the five-year point you switch from the part-time to the full-time plan, which mirrors the regular force plan. It's a little more intensive. But it isn't likely, at that point, that the member would be paying into both plans. He would have taken a leave of absence from his civilian job.

So we are taking that into consideration. It's an effective plan that will work well with existing civilian or out-of-Canadian-Forces plans.

Mr. John O'Reilly: And would it have the standard survivor benefit clauses, and so forth, of a normal pension plan?

Capt (N) Jennifer Bennett: It's a very comprehensive plan, made more so because it is under the Canadian Forces Superannuation Act.

For those who are solely in the part-time plan, of course, the benefits are comparable to it, because it's a part-time plan. It is certainly more comprehensive than any other part-time or casual employer offers.

Mr. John O'Reilly: Thank you.

The Chair: Thank you, Mr. O'Reilly. We'll come back to you with another round. We might get through this yet.

Some hon. members: Oh, oh!

The Chair: Mr. Bachand.

[Translation]

M. Claude Bachand: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Zuliani, I understood earlier that you reported to General Campbell but that you were also an advisor to General Henault on all matters dealing with the reserves. Is that right?

º (1640)

[English]

RAdm Raymond Zuliani: That's correct.

[Translation]

Mr. Claude Bachand: I understand. I also want to look at recruitment. If I understand correctly, recruitment can take place at Canadian Army Recruitment Centres. Captain Bennett, did you say earlier that it could also be done over the Internet?

Capt (N) Jennifer Bennett: Yes.

Mr. Claude Bachand: Those are the only two current locations where one can enlist. The recruitment centres recruit two types of individuals. I'm not talking about the navy, the air force or the land army, but they recruit people who want to be in the regular army and also people who show up saying they want to become reservists. Is that indeed what they do?

[English]

Capt (N) Jennifer Bennett: Yes, as well as a cadet instructor cadre.

[Translation]

Mr. Claude Bachand: Good. Now, tell me if you have anything to say about promotions. I am referring to the advertising campaign which is going full steam right now, where we see people in the Armed Forces running on a boat and doing all sorts of things. Do you have anything to say because there seems to be no difference between the regular army and the reservists? In other words, the same ads apply to everybody?

Would it be a good idea to say, at the end of the ad, that there are two options in what we have just seen: that of enlisting as a professional but also enlisting part-time in the reserves? Has this two-stream type of promotion been considered?

[English]

RAdm Raymond Zuliani: Certainly in terms of recruiting I've asked Captain Bennett to address it, because she is our reserve input in terms of how we've approached the total force recruiting initiative. She has been totally involved with that, so perhaps she can give you a better response.

Capt (N) Jennifer Bennett: From the outset we were involved in consulting. We are in phase one of the recruiting advertising now, which involves the initial commercials. We looked at the communities in the greatest need. That's why you see a navy-specific ad and an army reserve ad, and no other reserve-specific ads. We have two generic ads, one that has a longer, 90-second commercial with very few words. At the end, they advertise both reserve and regular force in concert, as do the posters.

In addition, in print ads and in phase two of the advertising campaign, which will be radio, television, and movie theatres, there will be more reserve-specific and trade-specific material for some of the regular force trades we are attracting. So the initial campaign did focus that the army reserve have their own campaign per se, which shows army reserve-related activities. There was method to our madness about including both the regular force and the reserve. We do promote the total force concept, and the integration of regular force and reserve serving side by side.

Where there is a necessity for a specific trade or a group, there will be specific advertising for that, and it is certainly being programmed now.

[Translation]

Mr. Claude Bachand: Thank you very much. That helps me enormously in thinking about this.

Now, let's talk about training. When they enlist in the regular army, navy or air force, everyone is sent to the very beautiful location which is the Saint-Jean region, because there is a military recruitment base in Saint-Jean. Everyone goes through there, and this is why we have such an effective army today. They have an absolutely extraordinary training base in Saint-Jean-sur-Richelieu.

The training I am talking about lasts 10 weeks. It is the full initiation to army techniques, training and all that. Do the reservists have a training period of equal duration as the regular forces? Does it also take place in Saint-Jean?

[English]

RAdm Raymond Zuliani: Yes. First of all, the basic reserve recruit training is identical to the regular force recruit training. The two courses are in fact interchangeable.

Although not all of the recruit training is in done in Saint-Jean, the bulk of it is. We also have recruit training done at Base Borden, and I think we have some out in Albert Head on the west coast and in Halifax. We're spreading it out. With the number of recruits we're attracting and taking in, Saint-Jean is not able to accommodate the entire influx of recruits, so it's spread out a little bit more. However, the basic recruit training requirements are identical for both reserve and regular force--or militia, right.

The militia tend to do it a little bit differently in terms of their basic recruit training. It's identical for the air reserve, for the naval reserve, and for the communications reserve. They follow the same basic recruit training programs.

For the army reserve, it's a little bit different. It's run out of Kingston and the four areas. Because the army is spread across the four areas, they tend to take a little bit of their basic training and spread it out across these areas.

º (1645)

[Translation]

Mr. Claude Bachand: I know that in the regular army, they must complete the whole course. They are at the base for 10 consecutive weeks. You say “yes”. Do we also ask reservists to be at the base for 10 consecutive weeks? You say “yes”. Isn't that an obstacle for some people? Would there not be some way to have modular training within which they would be given a year to complete their 10-week training? Has this approach been considered?

[English]

RAdm Raymond Zuliani: It was considered. The basic recruit training is modularized so that they don't have to take it in a 10-week block. The naval reserve, for example, takes two of the week modules and distributes them to their naval reserve division. It does it there and then they go for eight weeks.

There is some flexibility in terms of how you deliver the program. What isn't compromised is the standard of training that you're going to receive. So the standard is the same, although the delivery might be a little bit different.

[Translation]

Mr. Claude Bachand: Do I still have some time?

[English]

I might as well finish, since I have only two last questions left. I'll be done after that.

The Chair: Sure, go ahead.

[Translation]

Mr. Claude Bachand: Thank you.

You are responsible for the cadet program. When I speak of cadets, I am speaking of army cadets, air force cadets and sea cadets. All of that is you people. In other words, if I want to call the highest authority for the cadets, you're the one I would call, Mr. Zuliani. Is that right?

[English]

RAdm Raymond Zuliani: Yes, through the Vice-Chief of the Defence Staff, for whom I work directly.

[Translation]

Mr. Claude Bachand: I understand. I also saw, in your earlier presentation document, that you were in charge of developing programs for the Canadian junior Rangers. Does this mean the senior Rangers are not under your responsibility?

[English]

RAdm Raymond Zuliani: The senior rangers belong to the army and to the northern area in terms of their deployment and their utilization. The youth movement, the junior Canadian Rangers, falls under ours.

[Translation]

Mr. Claude Bachand: You don't take care of the seniors. You don't touch the seniors.

[English]

RAdm Raymond Zuliani: Just in terms of policy, we do, but in terms of deployment and training, that belongs to the army and to the northern area.

There's another connection the general is making here, that the instructors from the senior rangers come to the junior Canadian Rangers. That's the link we make between the two groups. There's a tie-in at the community level.

The Chair: Thank you, Mr. Bachand.

Mr. O'Reilly.

Mr. John O'Reilly: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

It used to be that the reserves had a summer program of some seven to seven and a half weeks. That was cut to five, I understand. So instead of having seven weeks guaranteed employment in the summer, you would have only five weeks guaranteed employment. Is that a rumour or a myth or a reality or...?

RAdm Raymond Zuliani: I certainly haven't been made aware of any of that. I thought you were referring to what used to be the summer youth employment program, a forerunner of the basic recruit training we did in the local NRDs. But certainly we don't do that any more.

Mr. John O'Reilly: Is there any thought to using that as a recruitment tool for people with college and university tuition and so forth? Seeing as how you're both educated, I know you'd want to....

RAdm Raymond Zuliani: You're talking about the summer employment program?

Mr. John O'Reilly: Yes.

RAdm Raymond Zuliani: There is some thought being given as to how we can utilize that.

Mr. John O'Reilly: Okay, because I think a great tool to attract youth to both the cadet and the reserve programs would be to offer employment, whether it be basic training or whatever, during those summer months and pay them for it. It would certainly beat flipping hamburgers somewhere, and it would give them some incentive to stay in and come back the next summer.

º (1650)

RAdm Raymond Zuliani: So it's the capacity to train them.

Mr. John O'Reilly: Yes.

RAdm Raymond Zuliani: Right.

BGen Paul Hussey: If I may, the ex-cadets who are interested in summer employment can apply to be a cadet instructor at our summer training centres--we have 23 of them across the country--for six to eight weeks of employment through the summer. They don't have to be ex-cadets, but usually the attractor is that they are ex-cadets.

You mentioned cadets. We still do go after that youth initiative. As they leave the cadets at 18 years of age, we encourage some of them to come back and work in the program.

Mr. John O'Reilly: That may work in some areas, but I would go to the area of some of the small northern areas in my riding. I have the second-largest riding in southern Ontario, so it takes up a large piece of geography. In fact, if you take Larry McCormick's riding, beside mine, and you add them, you have a third of the land in southern Ontario. So it's a big area, with 44 municipalities and so forth, a number of them very small.

Coboconk, for instance, has a cadet program. I believe it falls under HMCS Hood. By the time a person's 18, they're gone, and there's nothing to come back to. They all can't be instructors, obviously. I wonder if in some of your thoughts you might consider extending in the smaller communities the age limit of 18 to say 20. This would allow people to come back and contribute back into what's helped them get to where they are and maybe be able to continue with that program as they go to college or university.

RAdm Raymond Zuliani: In fact, that is available, not as a cadet but through the cadet instructor cadre. Those who are post-18 and are still interested in involving themselves in the cadet movement can come into the cadet instructor cadre, because there's always a demand for the cadet instructor cadre. As our mandate is to grow the cadet movement up to 70,000 from our present 57,000 or 58,000, we're going to need the prerequisite number of instructors as well. So both the cadet program and the cadre are growing proportionately, and that's available to students who are 19 or 20 or so.

Mr. John O'Reilly: The problem is, if you have too many instructors, obviously there are no openings in small communities, and they'd have to go somewhere else when maybe that isn't what they desire to do. They might want come back and work for the summer in their own community and live free off their parents. If there isn't an opening in that particular area, then they go to resort work or flipping hamburgers, that type of thing. By the way, that's a big trade in my area, because a large service sector does deal with tourism and so forth out of the Big Smoke.

At any rate, I found that to be a restriction in that particular unit. There were lots of instructors available but there were no jobs for them. There was an overabundance of them and nowhere else they could go that was close. That's just something you might consider as part of that program.

With that, Mr. Chairman, I have finished my questions.

I'll take this opportunity to thank you very much. It's been very informative. I know you have good support in your schools, and as you're both instructors, I'm sure they're benefiting very much from your expertise. Thank you very much for coming.

RAdm Raymond Zuliani: Thank you.

The Chair: I have a question I'd like to put to you, Admiral, and it concerns some comments we heard some time ago from the director general of health services on problems with the treatment available for reservists, especially coming back from deployments such as Bosnia or some of the other hot spots. From the standpoint of PTSD, they're not getting the same level of service as the regular forces. I'm just wondering if you share that concern, and whether or not you're happy with the level of service that exists for reservists.

RAdm Raymond Zuliani: Certainly it is a challenge, because when reservists come back from those deployments, as much as we try to track them, they get back into their civilian occupations and sometimes are resident in areas where we don't have the health services that are attributable to the regular force. But we're aware of that and it's a challenge we're trying to face. We're working with health services to ensure we do as well as we can, in as many areas as we can across the country, for those reservists.

º (1655)

The Chair: Thank you very much.

Mr. Bachand, I noted you worked Saint-Jean into your questioning today. In the absence of Mr. Stoffer, are you sure you don't want to ask any questions about Shearwater?

Mr. Claude Bachand: I will not exaggerate.

The Chair: On behalf of all of the committee members, I'd like to thank all of you for coming today. It's been very helpful. We're sorry that there weren't more members here to pose questions to you, but as Mr. O'Reilly and I explained earlier, we do have our challenges on some days and this just happens to be one of them. Again, on behalf of the members, thank you.

We're adjourned.