:
I call this meeting to order.
Welcome to meeting number 136 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security.
Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, and I'd like to remind participants of the following points.
Please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. All comments should be addressed through the chair.
Members, please raise your hand if you wish to speak, whether participating in person or via Zoom. The clerk and I will manage the speaking order as best we are able.
Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on November 21, 2024, the committee is commencing its study of the impacts of President-elect Donald Trump's announced measures on border security and migration.
I'd like to sincerely welcome our esteemed guests today. Thank you for honouring us with your time. We know, certainly, that Canadians are anxious about this topic in particular, and we look forward to your comments and your feedback.
Today we have with us, from the Canada Border Services Agency, Erin O'Gorman, president, and Aaron McCrorie, vice-president, intelligence and enforcement.
Welcome.
We also have, from the RCMP, Michael Duheme, commissioner, and Mathieu Bertrand, director general, serious and organized crime and border integrity.
Welcome.
I now invite Ms. O'Gorman to make an opening statement of up to five minutes.
Ms. O'Gorman, go right ahead.
:
Thank you, Madam Chair, for the invitation to appear again before this committee.
[Translation]
Today, I'd like to begin with a few observations about how the CBSA, the Canada Border Services Agency, continues to work closely and productively with its partners, both domestically and in the United States. Every day, border services officers at ports of entry across Canada protect Canadian communities by keeping dangerous people and goods out of the country.
[English]
But we don’t operate alone. Organized crime is a multi-jurisdictional endeavour. It would be unrealistic to think that one agency—even one country—could thwart their efforts. That’s why the CBSA works in lockstep with domestic and international law enforcement partners.
For example, domestically, the CBSA conducted eight joint operations with the Ontario Provincial Police and the Sûreté du Québec just this year alone. Working together, we intercepted hundreds of stolen vehicles and thousands of kilograms of illegal drugs.
Just this past Monday, CBSA officers in British Columbia made a major seizure of contraband and prohibited weapons, thanks to collaboration with the RCMP’s federal serious and organized crime division.
I would like to add that on the same day, at Hamilton International Airport, we seized six kilograms of suspected cannabis in three different shipments destined for France, among several other seizures that day. I could go on.
I will give you another international example. In 2023, my counterpart with the New Zealand Customs Service wrote to CBSA, thanking us for sharing vital and timely intelligence that resulted in the largest single drug seizure in New Zealand’s history: over 700 kilograms of methamphetamines.
We collaborate with countries around the world to stop the illegal import and export of drugs and other criminal activities all the time. What’s more, CBSA officers are deployed in 40 missions in 35 countries, which is our way of pushing the border out and preventing criminal elements from coming in the first place.
[Translation]
It goes without saying that our closest collaboration is with the United States. The cooperation between CBSA and U.S. Customs and Border Protection has been going on for a very long time, spanning the entire continent. We talk to each other regularly, at ports of entry, at my level, and everywhere in between.
[English]
We have several CBSA officials deployed across the United States, including two officers embedded within the U.S. CBP targeting center in Washington. They collaborate in the international effort to target and track illegal drugs.
[Translation]
The CBSA and its U.S. counterpart are jointly planning infrastructure investments. We've harmonized our work hours at ports of entry and coordinated our operations.
[English]
In some areas, our officers share the same building. Sometimes the border even cuts through the boardroom: in one case, one half in Canada and the other half in the United States. Our two agencies are co-located in Little Gold Creek in Yukon, where the Top of the World Highway connects Canada and Alaska. We're literally working side by side.
The CBSA’s collaboration goes beyond its partner agency, the U.S. CBP. We work with Homeland Security Investigations, the Coast Guard, the Drug Enforcement Agency, and the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.
Our partnership with the U.S. is a two-way relationship characterized by frank and open communication and ongoing problem-solving, and that will serve us very well going forward.
Thank you.
:
Good afternoon, and thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you for providing the opportunity to appear before this committee to talk about the RCMP's activities in relation to security at the Canada-U.S. border.
I'm joined here by Chief Superintendent Mathieu Bertrand, director general of federal policing criminal operations, serious and organized crime and border integrity.
I'll begin by providing some background on the RCMP's responsibility and actions with respect to the Canada-U.S. border.
[Translation]
The RCMP's border security functions and authorities are established by the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act and its regulations, the Customs Act, and the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act and regulations.
The RCMP is responsible for protecting Canada's borders between official ports of entry against criminal threats to and from Canada in all modes, whether air, land, sea or Arctic.
To delineate areas of shared responsibility and cooperation in border security, the RCMP and the Canada Border Services Agency, or CBSA, have established several memoranda of understanding.
The memoranda of understanding between the CBSA and the RCMP describe in detail the division of responsibilities and specific areas of cooperation and investigative responsibility with respect to border enforcement and the administration of borders, public safety and supporting national security outcomes.
[English]
As you are aware, border integrity is a priority for the RCMP. I can assure members of this committee that we continue to work with our portfolio, law enforcement and indigenous partners across the country to ensure that we are prepared to address any border concerns.
The RCMP continues to have regular engagement with its U.S. partners on various fronts, including border integrity, serious and organized crime and issues related to the change in administration, through existing mechanisms and fora.
The RCMP also participates in numerous cross-border initiatives with the U.S. that allow for joint operations and investigations. Highly integrated multimodal cross-border teams investigate criminal threats to the Canada-U.S. border, including irregular migration and human smuggling. These teams allow for shared communications, improved response times to a border incursion and enhanced investigative capacities.
Furthermore, the RCMP has regular engagement with indigenous law enforcement partners through the existing integrated border enforcement teams located in the provinces along the Canada-U.S. border.
The RCMP is aware that cross-border crime goes beyond irregular migration. Canada and the United States are both seized with an overdose crisis that continues to be driven by synthetic drugs, including fentanyl. This crisis continues to have devastating impacts on individuals and communities in both countries.
[Translation]
The RCMP and its partners, such as the CBSA, are committed to addressing this public safety issue and work at all police levels in Canada and abroad. You've recently seen press conferences and news releases on the subject.
One example is the extensive cooperation among the RCMP, the FBI and other partners in the Giant Slalom Project, which targeted large criminal organizations that were producing drugs abroad and then shipping them to Canada and then to the United States; second, a seizure at a port of entry of cocaine being shipped north; and finally, the recent dismantling of several drug labs.
It's essential that the RCMP and law enforcement agencies in the United States work closely together to address threats related to these harmful substances, both at the border and elsewhere.
For example, the RCMP is working with the United States as part of the Trilateral Fentanyl Committee's task force, the North American Dialogue on Drug Policy, the Global Coalition to Address Synthetic Drug Threats and the Canada-United States Joint Action Plan on Opioids.
The fentanyl task force is a bilateral initiative established in 2023. It aims to increase cooperation and information sharing on fentanyl trends, investigations and patterns of use among various law enforcement and federal government agencies, including the RCMP.
[English]
Moreover, through the Canada-U.S. opioids action plan, the RCMP regularly collaborates with the U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration, better known as the DEA, by sharing samples of illegal substances in Canada for testing through DEA's drug signature program. This co-operation provides the opportunity for intelligence sharing between our two countries to increase our collective knowledge on drug trends.
We remain confident in the ability of Canadian enforcement agencies to work together to maintain the integrity of the Canada-U.S. border and to enforce Canadian laws.
With that, I would like to again thank the committee for the opportunity to meet with you. I would be pleased to answer any of your questions.
Thank you.
:
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you to the witnesses for being here today.
In the news lately, obviously, there's been a tremendous amount about the border situation and the 25% tariff that's being thrown around down in the States, which would affect Canadians greatly. There are a lot of Canadians who are very nervous and upset about this. It could be coming forward and it could affect a lot of businesses and people. Now there's even talk of retaliation coming back from our side.
It's interesting that this all appears to have happened so quickly over the last couple of weeks with President-elect Trump's announcement of the issues of fentanyl and illegal immigration as problems at our border. Just a week ago or so, we had the here, and I asked that minister why it took comments by President-elect Trump to start acting on this serious situation.
Since that meeting, we've actually done some great research and found out that this has been an issue for quite some time. It has been very well known. I have here a meeting note from September 2023. The meeting was between the and Ambassador of the United States David Cohen. This is an official document from Public Safety Canada.
In a nutshell, this talks about how, in September 2023, Minister met with the U.S. ambassador, David Cohen. A memo prepared for the minister ahead of this meeting, with input provided by the CBSA, stated that topics of interest and concern for the ambassador were fentanyl and illegal immigration at our shared border.
My question is for the CBSA individuals here today. Is it fair to say that the Government of Canada and the in particular have been aware of the United States' concerns on these files well in advance of the election of Donald Trump?
:
I'm not going to speak for the . He's well able to do that himself.
I will point out that since taking on this role, I have attended the cross border crime forum with both this and his predecessor, where fentanyl, drug and firearm smuggling and human smuggling featured prominently in the agenda. Canada brought as much substance to that meeting as our American colleagues.
Out of that, the ministers and the attorneys general recognized the work we were doing to establish information-sharing agreements, told us to hurry up and asked for feedback on how we were operating together. We were quite able to give that feedback, and we were operating quite collaboratively.
I have been in several meetings where these were on the agenda and, like I said, the was well briefed by me and the commissioner in terms of the risks related to it.
CBSA has received funding on firearms and drugs in the past few years, as well as addressing irregular migration and stolen vehicles. The extent to which we have been given additional funding for technology, detection tools, increased law enforcement—
I'm sorry. I have very limited time. There's a second part to the question. Thank you.
What we're really trying to get down to is the root here. It seems that in the last two weeks this has been a big surprise. Everybody is panicking now and trying to resolve a situation.
Further to that meeting that happened in September 2023, there was a meeting in May of 2024 that was, quite boastfully, posted on X. I have the post and picture here in my hand. The post says: “Good to meet with [Minister] LeBlanc at the Embassy today to discuss how the United States and Canada are working every day to deepen our law enforcement cooperation, secure our shared border, fight the scourge of fentanyl and combat against the infiltration of transnational criminal organizations.”
That second meeting happened in May of 2024, so we know that there have been two meetings about this. This can't be a surprise to anybody within the government. The U.S. ambassador shared this photo on X, with this caption, in talking about securing the border, fighting the scourge of fentanyl and combatting the infiltration of criminal organizations.
To reiterate, would it be fair to say that the Government of Canada and the have been aware of the United States' concerns about fentanyl and illegal immigration well in advance of November 2024?
First of all, thank you guys for being here today, and for what you do.
I want to continue with the fentanyl discussion, because that seems to be on everybody's radar right now.
Canada and the United States share a joint commitment to secure our shared border and ensure those who would traffic in fentanyl are stopped, apprehended, disrupted and what have you.
Can you tell the committee how much fentanyl is entering the United States from Canada?
:
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you to all four of you for being with us today. I also want to thank you for the work that you do. We don't do that often enough.
From what I've heard, there's very good cooperation between the Border Services Agency and the RCMP within the Valleyfield detachment, under the direction of Martin Labrecque, I believe, and with the member for Salaberry—Suroît. We know that a number of mayors and prefects from border RCMs are concerned about the situation. So I want to thank you for the work that's being done in this regard and that certainly reassures many people.
The border issue has been on the agenda for a few weeks now. I have in front of me a Radio-Canada article entitled "Ottawa could spend more than $1 billion on the border with the United States." This article pertains to the government's desire to spend a significant amount of money on border protection to allay Donald Trump's concerns and avoid the 25% tariffs that he threatened to impose very recently.
The Minister of Public Safety, Democratic Institutions and Intergovernmental Affairs, Dominic LeBlanc, has said that he intends to increase the number of officers at the border and purchase additional equipment. A number of drones and helicopters have been in the news. As we understand it, details of the plan will be released next Monday in the economic update.
I'd like the RCMP to give us more details about the equipment and the number of officers on the ground. I'd also like to ask them to give us some clarification about comments made in Radio-Canada articles. They reported that, in some cases, only six officers were patrolling the border and there were only a few police cars.
Could you tell us whether the planned investments will enable us to purchase the necessary equipment and increase the number of officers on the ground?
:
First of all, I'd like to say that the $1 billion figure surprises us. Ms. O'Gorman and I had submitted our request, but I wasn't sure what the outcome would be.
Minister LeBlanc also made it clear that he would invest in resources, drones and helicopters. The best approach, in our view, is to rely on technology so that we can react differently. Rather than using humans as "detectors," we can rely on modern technology that can be acquired quickly and yield convincing results. That's what we're advocating for the entire border, from the east coast to the west coast.
With respect to field officers, I'm not aware of the exact number per patrol. However, I can tell you that on several occasions there will be an intensification of operations in the evening, a kind of energetic impact. We work in parallel with U.S. Customs and Border Protection when we do that work, but also on a day-to-day basis. Two days ago we intercepted two people trying to get south of the border. There's very good cooperation in that area.
Having said that, we're really talking about relying on technology to modernize the equipment we have.
:
First, I'll explain how drones work.
Ms. Michaud, you gave a good explanation; drones are used, and they're also used in cases where the locations are more difficult to access, for example, places that can't be reached with snowmobiles or all-terrain vehicles. In addition, they allow us to notify our American partners if we see movement close to the border.
I think I said it the last time I appeared before this committee, but the offence occurs when they cross the border. That's where the offence occurs. Obviously, the RCMP has the necessary authority to arrest people when it has reasonable grounds to believe that an offence will be committed; this is based on the perception of the officer in the field and the information he or she has.
Lastly, when it comes to the use of technology, we want to marry technology and teams. If technology is deployed, we want to make sure we have the personnel needed to intercept people or warn our American counterparts.
:
Having so little time is disappointing. Thank you nonetheless, Madam Chair.
I have the same figures that Ms. Vandenbeld just mentioned. This comes from an article in La Presse, by investigative journalist Vincent Larouche, which said that of the 49,000 pounds of fentanyl seized over the past two years—I imagine it was at the U.S. border—only 53 pounds came from Canada; the rest came from Mexico. It would therefore be true to say that 0.1% or 0.2% of fentanyl entering the United States comes from Canada. According to the article, those figures are from the U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration's "National Drug Threat Assessment," which is a periodic report listing the major threats associated with illegal drug trafficking. I understand that the Border Services Agency can't necessarily confirm those figures, but the quantities seized seem small compared to those from Mexico.
I don't know if Mr. Trump has made any statements about illegal drugs coming from Mexico, but this reminds me of the statements he made the first time he took office. Members will recall that he was proposing to build a wall at the southern border with Mexico. Now, suddenly, he seems to be attacking Canada. He says, perhaps jokingly, but still, that Canada could become the 51st state of the United States. He also refers to the Prime Minister of Canada as a governor. In short, he seems to be making fun of Canada.
Why do you think Mr.Trump is doing this to Canada? I understand that this is a difficult question, because few people can grasp what's going through Mr. Trump's head, or explain what he thinks.
So the question is: when we see that such a situation can arise with our greatest ally, how does the Border Services Agency prepare for it, in cooperation with its partners? What can be done to prevent this type of perhaps impulsive behaviour from an American administration?
:
I don't want to repeat myself, but this is a very important point. We work very closely with other U.S. agencies, whether it's the U.S. Customs and Border Protection, or CBP, the Drug Enforcement Administration, or DEA, and the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, or ATF.
That being said, I don't know if everyone is familiar with our collaboration and successes.
[English]
Operationally, we are sharing information every day. Every intelligence report we create, we send to our U.S. counterparts as a matter of course. If we find a new way that drugs are hidden, we share it with the U.S.
Operationally, I'm not concerned that there's a view that our agency is not doing enough.
[Translation]
I don't know what's in the minds of people who say we're not doing enough, but the government has indicated that there's always more to be done, and that's the subject of ongoing discussions. In fact, the minister has said publicly that he's looking at additional investments.
:
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, witnesses, for being here. Thank you to both of your frontline organization members who are boots on the ground to stand in the gap at our borders and across this country. Thank you for that.
We know that, through an order paper question that was submitted, the Liberals lost track of some 30,000 individuals scheduled for deportation, which is troubling in itself. How can something like this possibly occur? Specifically, there are 29,730 people who have been issued warrants by immigration authorities, and they have failed to appear.
How does this happen?
:
Madam Chair, as for length of time, I'm not aware, but it goes back several years.
In terms of success stories, I think I shared one with the committee the last time I was here. We had a case in Manitoba where our U.S. CBP colleagues spotted six individuals, I believe, crossing northbound on a cold night. We were informed. We dispatched our team there to, I would say, save the people, because most of them were transported to the hospital. I believe that, to this day, there's still one who is in the hospital with severe frostbite. That's good co-operation, and a good example of how we collaborate with U.S. CBP.
I'll go back to what Aaron said earlier. This is done on a daily basis. We have our integrated border enforcement teams—better known as IBETs—working collaboratively. We have people from different agencies and law enforcement coming together, sharing intelligence and sometimes planning operations. This is strong, because nobody can do it alone. It's bringing people together to ensure the border is safe.
:
Thank you, Madam Chair.
I'd like to return to the commissioner to ask some questions about fentanyl, right now.
Everybody has to agree that, across Canada, fentanyl is a very serious situation. It's harming many people and affecting families. It's right across the country. Obviously, it's across the world, but we're here today to talk about Canada.
Recently, the Canadian Department of Foreign Affairs said that Canada is now a net exporter of fentanyl. I understand there's been some talk today about how much goes to the States and how much goes here.
Overall, Commissioner, would you agree with the statement by the Department of Foreign Affairs that Canada, right now, is a net exporter of fentanyl?
:
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you to our witnesses for being here.
I want to follow up on Mr. Shipley's questions on the exporting of fentanyl, for example, because part of that, in fact, confirms that it's not just a question of borders. It's production. It's my understanding that, through investments in the RCMP, there have been 40 drug labs shut down since 2018.
Without going into any operational kinds of tactics that would help organize crime, can we talk about...? I would think that very large, clandestine drug labs would require intelligence-sharing and sophisticated RCMP investigations, and that the ability to do this type of work requires resources.
Could you speak a little bit about the investments to be able to do that work? If you shut down any labs at the production level, then the export of that becomes less of an issue at the borders.
:
If you read the CTV article, this happened at the end of last week. The RCMP seized several barrels of chemicals based on information provided by our U.S. colleagues.
To your question on where we're going, there are a couple of approaches here from the Canadian perspective.
Our CIROC initiative, the Canadian Integrated Response to Organized Crime, is putting the final touches on a fentanyl strategy. CIROC is made up of key police leaders from across the country who come together to discuss ongoing problems and tackle them together. That's one thing.
What we are looking at is shifting to where we have dedicated teams that are targeting strictly fentanyl, because when you have a drug team that is looking at different commodities—but considering what we're seeing.... With the additional funding we're hoping to get, the resources to target specific things when it comes to not only us, but....
We have a call with the president of the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police to make sure that all law enforcement are gathered together and are informed about what's going on on the border, as well as how to tackle fentanyl.
:
Thank you, Madam Chair.
There's a lot of talk about the government's plan to avoid being subject to the 25% tariffs imposed by the U.S. government. However, I think that this plan must go both ways.
I'll remind you of a few statements made by President-elect Donald Trump during the last U.S. election campaign.
He announced his willingness to declare nothing less than a national state of emergency, and to use the U.S. military to enforce measures concerning the deportation of people who are illegally in the United States. At a press conference, he even announced that he was going to launch the largest deportation in American history.
Let's go back to 2017, when he was last in office. More than 60,000 people had claimed asylum in Canada at the Canada-U.S. land border. Today, more than 11 million people in the United States are without status. In addition, hundreds of thousands of people have limited status, which will expire in the coming months.
Let's recall his plan during his last term. He spoke of building a wall on the southern border between the U.S. and Mexico; putting an end to the "catch and release" policy regarding undocumented people; creating a special force to deport illegal criminals; blocking immigration from certain countries after thorough investigations; forcing other countries to repatriate people whom U.S. authorities wish to deport; and setting up a tracking system through biometric visas. Other things are mentioned, and I won't list them all.
So it seems that we could be facing a large influx of migrants at the Canadian border.
I'm not asking you for the details of the plan that will supposedly be released next week, but I imagine that the Minister of Public Safety has consulted with your various organizations to find out what you recommend.
It seems to me that we question you often, and I don't want you to get the impression that we think nothing is being done at this time. We know there are many things being done that we just don't know about.
In that context, I imagine that additional measures could be taken and that's what the $1 billion investment will allow.
Ms. O'Gorman, could you tell us about the recommendations you made to the minister, without telling us what will be retained? Maybe you don't know that yourself.
During the auto theft study, we heard from the Ontario Provincial Police that, oftentimes, when they catch people in the act of stealing cars or as a result of their investigations, it's people they've already been interacting with. It's people they've caught previously. In fact, many of these people are out on bail.
In your fentanyl investigations—when you're cracking down on these labs, making these great busts that we like to see and are catching people—are you finding that these are people who are known to law enforcement generally, or are they people who have had no interaction with law enforcement before?
:
Thank you very much for the opportunity to participate in this important study that you've undertaken.
I represent Sault Ste. Marie and the riding thereof, which is a border town. It's also a steel town. Studying Trump's tariff threat because of the border, I don't accept the premise that we're a problem, as I didn't accept that we were a problem with the section 232 tariffs.
I open up my windows when I wake up in the morning and I can see the United States. There weren't any gun turrets or barbed wire or protected....
Fast-forward to today, when I look at the investments we have made at our border just in Sault Ste. Marie.... We cross every day. I went to school in Michigan at Lake Superior State University. I crossed every single day and I saw how well the border functioned. With the sharing of information between America and Canada, when I go to the United States, they know what I potentially have done. I've done nothing, but it's that kind of sharing of information.
I remember one time when I was at Lake State, we had a Chevy Chevette full of my American friends and we pulled up to our border crossing. We were waiting in line and one of the Americans said, “Oh, man, wouldn't it be great if we were all just one big country?” I quickly said back to him, “Sure, it'd be great having one prime minister,” and then the ensuing discussion started.
That border crossing has totally changed. I recently cut the ribbon on a $51-million investment at the Sault border, which made the facility larger with bigger inspection rooms, more lanes and areas for the staff to work in.
My question, through you, Chair, to our fine friends here is, that's one example, but could you please share the examples of some of the investments in facilities?
I also toured afterward and saw the new equipment being put in there—the X-ray machines and the stuff that identifies the drugs so the officers can identify it right away—as well as the training that takes place.
Would you mind putting on record the investments that we've made to continue to work closely with the Americans and protect our borders?
:
Thank you, Madam Chair.
I would like to change gears for my last line of questioning, but if I have time, I'll come back to it.
Recently, the was here and indicated to this committee that he's working on a plan to strengthen our borders. Commissioner, you had indicated as well, as reported by the National Post, that you had presented the government with a plan to bolster the country's border security.
Can you describe what that plan looks like from the RCMP's perspective? I also want to ask Ms. O'Gorman—both of you—what developments have been made since the 's meeting with us here a couple weeks ago on the plan? What does is look like? How is it rolling out, and what does it look like moving forward?
I couldn't help but laugh at Mr. Lloyd's last comments in his round, when he said, “I hope you will get” all the resources you need to do this work. He had the opportunity to vote on some of these resources and he actually voted against them.
Following up on the questions about organized crime, it actually brings me back. I come from a region where the Hells Angels have been active at different points of time. They don't really go away, but there are spikes in their activity. In fact, when I was in high school I did a placement with our local police in forensics. Organized crime was a big focus of some of that work.
Did organized crime groups just spike after the Supreme Court shut down mandatory minimums?
:
Thank you for your question.
I find it interesting that the union is saying that officers could patrol between border crossings as early as tomorrow if a certain order in council from 1981 didn't exist, while thousands of agents are still needed.
You can't do everything at the same time. We carry out our mandate every day at ports of entry.
[English]
We work side by side with the RCMP, who is carrying out it's mandate. If the government provided CBSA with the resources and the mandate to do that, we would. That's not my area of focus right now. My focus is on the ports of entry, our people internationally, the marine ports and inland. We have 200 investigators. That is my focus.
[Translation]
So it's a little easy to say that this order in council is the only thing preventing us from doing that. We carry out our mandate at ports of entry across the country and around the world.
Thank you for asking me this question and for giving me the opportunity to clarify certain things about a comment that, from my point of view, was somewhat simplistic.
In terms of border crossings and the reduction in hours of service, the last time you were here you said that you had aligned yourselves with the U.S. schedule and that about two cars went through every hour anyway. Your organization has provided us with the data on how many vehicles go through every hour. We see that between 6 p.m. and 10 p.m., at the Trout River and Herdman border crossings, the ones I mentioned to you, on average, more than two cars go through every hour. That's 14 for Trout River and in 18 for Herdman. So the effect is perhaps greater than we thought.
At this point, would it be possible to resume discussions with the U.S. to see if we can keep those border crossings open between 6:00 p.m. and 10:00 p.m.?
I even see that before 8 p.m. or 9 p.m., there are fewer crossings than after 6 p.m. Is that decision taken with the United States set in stone, or can we still talk to them to make adjustments?
One of the good things that is happening is that we have people embedded in the U.S. targeting centre, and they will be sending somebody to us starting in January, so we're quite pleased about that.
We're coordinating our infrastructure investments, as I've already mentioned.
We're going to undertake a pre-clearance pilot that would have Canada Border Services Agency officers co-locate on the U.S. side and pre-clear people before they come to Canada. I'll say that's a pilot with the express purpose of seeing if it works, and I think that's quite important.
Working internationally, when we send liaison officers out, the first people they meet, in addition to meeting people in their host country, are their U.S. Customs and Border Protection and DEA counterparts.
As I said, information is being shared all the time to very good effect.