FOPO Committee Meeting
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Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans
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EVIDENCE
Tuesday, December 14, 2021
[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]
[English]
Good morning, honourable members.
I'm wondering if we could quickly do a check to ensure that everyone's able to use the interpretation function, because we'll be switching to speaking in French as well at this meeting.
[Translation]
I am now speaking to you in French. Can you all hear the English interpretation?
You're letting me know that it's working. Thank you.
[English]
It looks like we're good. I see a quorum.
I must inform members that the clerk of the committee can only receive motions for the election of chair. The clerk cannot receive other types of motions, cannot entertain points of order nor participate in debate.
[Translation]
Excuse me, Madam Clerk, I can't see the other committee members in the room. I only see myself on the screen. Is that how it should be?
Give me a minute, I will check into that. I'll be right back, Mr. Cormier.
[English]
Can we do a room view? We'll change the shot. Okay.
[Translation]
Yes.
I'd like to inform all committee members that Mr. Cormier is joining us via the Zoom app this morning.
Can you see us now, Mr. Cormier?
Perfect.
Let's go back to electing the Chair.
[English]
I am ready to receive motions for the election of the chair.
Mr. Hanley.
Thank you.
It has been moved by Mr. Hanley that Mr. McDonald be elected as chair of the committee.
Are there any further motions?
Pursuant to the House order of Nov 25, all questions shall be decided by a recorded vote except those decided unanimously or on division.
(Motion agreed to)
The Clerk: I declare the motion carried, and Mr. McDonald duly elected chair of the committee.
Some hon. members: Hear, hear!
The Clerk: I invite Mr. McDonald to take the chair.
Thank you everyone for that vote of confidence in me as chair. It's great to be back and to see some new members and some recycled ones, I guess, or those who have been here for a while.
To the new members, I say, lean on the people with experience a little bit starting off, and they won't guide you wrong. They'll guide you in the right direction, and you'll get up to speed pretty quickly. Don't sweat it. Don't panic, and we'll try to get through this together, no matter where we are or what we're doing.
I think we have some routine motions we have to go through.
It's my understanding there will be a vice-chair from the Conservative party, and a vice-chair from the Bloc.
I'll ask the clerk to take care of the election of the vice-chairs.
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Pursuant to Standing Order 106(2), the first vice-chair must be a member of the official opposition.
I am now prepared to receive motions for the first vice-chair.
Mr. Arnold.
Thank you.
It has been moved by Mr. Arnold that Mr. Perkins be elected as first vice-chair of the committee.
Are there any further motions?
Is it the consent of the committee to adopt the motion?
Some hon. members: Hear, hear!
The Clerk: Thank you. I declare the motion carried and Mr. Perkins duly elected first vice-chair of the committee.
[Translation]
Pursuant to Standing Order 106(2), the second vice-chair must be a member of an opposition party other than the official opposition.
I am now prepared to receive motions for the second vice-chair.
Mr. Cormier, you have the floor.
Thank you, Mr. Cormier.
It has been moved by Mr. Cormier that Mrs. Desbiens be elected as second vice-chair of the committee.
(Motion agreed to)
The Clerk: I declare the motion carried and Mrs. Desbiens duly elected as second vice-chair of the committee.
[English]
Thank you, Madam Clerk, and congratulations to our vice-chairs on a well-fought election.
Welcome to meeting number one of the Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans.
Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format pursuant to the House order of November 25. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application.
Regarding the speaking list, the committee clerk and I will do the best we can to maintain a consolidated order of speaking for all members, whether participating virtually or in person.
I would like to take this opportunity to remind all participants to this meeting that screen shots or taking photos of your screen is not permitted.
The proceedings will be made available via the House of Commons website.
Given the ongoing pandemic situation, in light of the recommendation from public health authorities, as well as the directives of the Board of Internal Economy on October 19 to remain healthy and safe, the following is recommended for all those attending the meeting in person. Anyone with symptoms should participate via Zoom and not attend the meeting in person. Everyone must maintain a two-metre physical distance, whether seated or standing. Everyone must wear a non-medical mask when circulating in the room. It is recommended in the strongest possible terms that members wear their mask at all times, including when seated. Non-medical masks provide better clarity over the cloth masks and are available in the room. Everyone present must maintain proper hand hygiene by using the hand sanitizer at the room entrance. Committee rooms are cleaned before and after each meeting. To maintain this, everyone is encouraged to clean surfaces such as the desk, chair and microphone with the provided disinfectant wipes when vacating or taking a seat.
As the chair, I will be enforcing these measures for the duration of the meeting, and I thank members in advance for their co-operation.
I would now suggest that as to the next order of business the committee proceed to considering our routine motions. In preparation for this, the committee clerk has circulated a list of routine motions that the committee adopted in the last parliamentary session. The committee clerk can also answer any questions about the routine motions that anyone may have.
Ms. Barron.
Thank you and congratulations, Mr. Chair.
I wanted to quickly take a moment to point out that I put forward a couple of routine motions, and was wondering when a good time might be for me to do that.
That's normally towards the end of the meeting, and just as a reminder, of course, motions have to be available in both official languages and be circulated to members as well.
Mr. Chair, I'll move the motion on analyst services.
Are we going to do these one at a time, or shall we just do them as a block?
The next routine motion is the time for opening remarks and questioning of witnesses, with the schedule as noted. I move this.
The next motion would concern working meals, and given that our schedule takes us over lunch, this is probably important, so we should pay attention to this one.
It is so moved by Mr. Hardie.
(Motion agreed to [See Minutes of Proceedings])
The Chair: Now you can get to your lunch one.
Next is the provision on travel, accommodation and living expenses of witnesses. I think it's a fond hope that travel and visits to interesting parts of Canada would be part of what would we would be able to look forward to at committee this time.
I couldn't agree more.
It is so moved by Mr. Hardie.
(Motion agreed to [See Minutes of Proceedings])
The next provision deals with support for members for in camera meetings and access to in camera meetings; so moved.
It is so moved by Mr. Hardie.
I hear no discussion. All those in favour?
(Motion agreed to [See Minutes of Proceedings])
We experienced this in the last Parliament as the COVID measures were stepped up—this is an important one. I move the provision for technical tests for witnesses.
It is so moved by Mr. Hardie.
I hear no discussion. All those in favour?
(Motion agreed to [See Minutes of Proceedings])
It is so moved by Mr. Hardie.
Hearing no discussion, all those in favour?
(Motion agreed to [See Minutes of Proceedings])
The Chair: That looks after our routine motions.
For any motions anybody has to move, as long as they have been provided as earlier stated, this would be the time.
Thank you, Chair.
I have the motions available in both French and English and provided to the clerk for distribution.
Because this is my first committee meeting, just to clarify, would you like me to read the motion and provide its rationale, or just read the motion and leave it with you then?
Thank you.
This is the first motion.
That the committee may meet in camera only for the following purposes: (a) to consider a draft report; (b) to attend briefings concerning national security; (c) to consider lists of witnesses; (d) for any other reason with the unanimous consent of the committee;
That all votes taken in camera, with the exception of votes regarding the consideration of draft reports, be recorded in the Minutes of Proceedings, including how each member voted when recorded votes are requested.
[Translation]
[English]
It's just that I want to read it. Usually I think the clerk also sends them by email to those who are attending virtually.
Mr. Chair, you never looked so good with my name right behind you, with the sign.
It's just so that you wouldn't feel missed.
I was just conferring with the clerk for a second. Everybody has heard the terms of the motion and the motions have been circulated to everybody.
Mr. Cormier, have you received yours?
We can, I guess.
We will recess for a couple of minutes just to allow members to confer with each other.
We're back.
Everybody has had a chance to discuss it. I don't know if anybody has any questions for Ms. Barron on the motion, or any discussion.
Ms. Barron.
Thank you.
I just wanted to, if I could, add a little bit of rationale for the motion.
Putting this motion forward, I'm sure everyone here can agree that clarity and consistency from the outset are important, and that's what this motion is attempting to do—setting some parameters around when and what it would look like for us to go into in camera, and making sure that we're all on the same page and working collaboratively around these decisions moving forward.
Thank you.
Is there any other discussion?
Hearing none, we will call the vote.
(Motion negatived)
The Chair: Do you have another?
I do.
Thank you, Mr. Chair, and to everyone for allowing me to bring this forward.
The second motion, which is being distributed right now and, I believe, has been emailed already in both French and English reads as follows:
That each party represented on the committee be entitled to select one witness per one-hour witness panel and two witnesses per two-hour witness panel.
We will wait for the motion to be distributed to everybody and make sure Mr. Cormier has received his as well.
I didn't receive it, Mr. Chair, but this one is a little bit less complex, so I heard what my colleague said.
Thank you.
I believe they were sent in the same email.
I have some rationale behind why we're bringing this motion forward and why I'm bringing it forward today. It is important to hear from diverse groups and to ensure that we have representations and that we're really digging into the topic at hand and understanding what it is that we are attempting to understand. Providing witnesses who are representative to the parties would provide a more in-depth opportunity for witnesses and for us to learn from these witnesses.
Thank you.
Mr. Chair, I have a number of notice of motions I would like to propose.
I would like to move the following notice of motion:
That the committee request that the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans and the Canadian Coast Guard appear before the committee for a two-hour meeting in the first week of February 2022.
The next one is:
That the following reports of this committee in the 2nd Session of the 43rd Parliament be adopted as reports in this session: Report 1, Striped Bass in the Southern Gulf of St. Lawrence and Miramichi River: Striking a Delicate Balance; Report 4, Implementation of the Mi'kmaw and Maliseet Treaty Right to Fish in Pursuit of a Moderate Livelihood; and
that the Chair present these reports to the House.
The next one is:
That the following report of this committee in the 2nd Session of the 43rd Parliament be adopted as a report in this session: Report 2, Aquatic Invasive Species: A National Priority;
that the Chair present the reports to the House; and that, pursuant to Standing Order 109—
On a point of order, Mr. Chair, I thought we had to deal with motions one at a time and not all together. Maybe I'm wrong here.
Mr. Cormier, it's a notice of motion. It's not actually the motion itself being put forward. Mr. Perkins is just giving notice that he will be moving those motions in the future.
Should I start the last one over?
A voice: Yes, please.
Mr. Rick Perkins:
That the following report of this committee in the 2nd Session of the 43rd Parliament be adopted as a report in this session: Report 2, Aquatic Invasive Species: A National Priority;
that the Chair present the report to the House; and that, pursuant to Standing Order 109, the committee request that the government table a comprehensive response to this report.
The next one is:
That the Committee undertake a study examining systems and requirements pertaining to at sea safety of commercial harvesters including Transport Canada regulations related to vessel design, safety requirements and seaworthiness; and examining the federal commercial training courses and licensing requirements of mariners before going to sea, and upgrading of skills as required; and examining the Canadian Coast Guard search and rescue capabilities and response rates.
That the committee allot no fewer than eight two-hour meetings to receive said testimony.
That the committee also accept written briefs from individuals or organizations who wish to submit input.
That the committee submit its findings with recommendations in a report to the House.
[Translation]
[English]
[Translation]
We have two motions to bring forward to the committee, Mr. Chair. We worked hard and we were looking forward to being here.
[English]
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
In the fifth report by this committee in the last Parliament, “Pacific Salmon: Ensuring the Long-Term Health of Wild Populations and Associated Fisheries”, recommendation number four stated:
That the Government of Canada, the Province of British Columbia and, where appropriate, First Nation communities review the state of flood control/mitigation systems along the lower Fraser River and their impact on wild salmon, and co-develop a program to update pumping stations and other components, as necessary, to remove risks to wild salmon runs.
There's a great deal of work under way in British Columbia right now to recover from the floods, and I would like to move that we commit to what would be probably just a short study, focusing on the opportunity we have to address those risks to wild salmon as we recover from the floods and rebuild the flood-control infrastructure in the lower Fraser Valley.
I would move that we dedicate no more than three meetings, with a report to go to Parliament.
Thank you, Chair, and once again congratulations. It's good to see you in person. It's been virtually for so many months. It's good to be back, isn't it?
This is my notice of motion:
That the committee undertake a study to examine the scope and effects of illegal, unreported, and unregulated fishing (IUU) on Canada's fisheries resources and the degradation of those resources by illegal, unreported, and unregulated fishing;
That the committee receive witness testimony from the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans, the Minister of National Defence, officials from the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, the Department of National Defence, and Canadians impacted by IUU fishing;
That the committee allot no fewer than eight two-hour meetings to receive said testimony;
That the committee also accept written briefs from individuals or organizations who wish to submit input; and
That the committee submit its findings with recommendations in a report to the House.
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Congratulations on your chairmanship of the committee. It has been good serving with you on this committee for the past almost six years now. We've done some good work, and I look forward to completing some further good work in this next session.
I have two notices of motions that I'd like to present today.
The first is:
That, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), the committee undertake a study of at least two (2) meetings to understand the impact of the Department of Fisheries and Oceans' re-interpretation of the Fisheries Act regulations affecting frozen-at-sea spot prawns;
That the committee call witnesses including senior departmental officials from the Department of Fisheries and Oceans and interested stakeholder groups to testify;
That the committee adopt testimony received by the committee in its examination of this matter in the 2nd Session of the 43rd Parliament as evidence for the study;
That the committee adopt the June 21, 2021 letter sent by the committee to the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans as evidence for this study; and
That the committee report its conclusions and recommendations to the House.
The second notice of motion is:
That, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), the committee undertake a study of at least six (6) meetings to examine how the Department of Fisheries and Oceans develops scientific conclusions including advice that it provides to the minister and how the minister applies scientific advice to ministerial decisions;
That the committee call witnesses including the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans, senior department officials from the Department of Fisheries and Oceans and persons who have directly contributed to the department's science and science processes to testify; and,
That the committee report its conclusions and recommendations to the House.
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. Arnold.
I'll now go to Mr. Small, but first I'll say that I'm glad to see another Newfoundlander and Labradorian here on the committee.
Some hon. members: Hear, hear!
The Chair: It was beginning to feel a bit lonely around the table.
We also have an ex-pat, if I may say that. Are we allowed to say that here?
Ms. Barron has roots in St. John's.
Thank you, Mr. Chair, and congratulations on being elected chair.
Mr. Chair, I move:
That the committee undertake a comprehensive study of pinnipeds that would examine the ecosystem impacts of pinniped overpopulation in the waters of Quebec, Eastern and Western Canada, international experience in pinniped stock management, the domestic and international market potential for various pinniped products, social acceptability, and the sociocultural importance of developing active management of predation for coastal and First Nations communities with access to the resource;
That the committee invite witness appearances including Indigenous organizations, scientific experts, DFO officials and experts and officials from countries such as Scotland, Norway and Iceland that have conserved and rebuilt fish stocks by balancing pinniped populations;
That the committee allot no fewer than eight two-hour meetings to receive said testimony;
That the committee also accept written briefs from individuals or organizations who wish to submit input; and
That the committee submit its findings with recommendations in a report to the House.
Thank you.
No worries, and welcome to the committee, Mr. Small. Mr. McDonald will feel less lonely with you around the table.
It was my understanding, Mr. Cormier, that when everyone put their hand up to be recognized, it was to give a notice of motion. I heard it read as a motion as well, but I knew it was a notice of motion. That's why we continued.
[Translation]
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'd like to take this opportunity to congratulate you on your appointment today.
I am an Isle‑aux‑Coudres girl from a family of sailors and captains who fished for cod, smelt, flounder and sturgeon in the St. Lawrence. So it's truly a pleasure for me to be with you.
I am new to the committee. We also have some motions to introduce to you. I will read the first motion to you now.
That, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), the Committee undertake a study on the labelling of seafood products and that it consider the impact of the consultations undertaken on that topic by the Canadian Food Inspection Agency; that the Committee invite the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans, the Minister of Health and experts to appear regarding this issue; that the Committee hold at least four meetings to do so; and that the Committee report its findings and recommendations to the House.
The second motion is as follows:
That, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), the Committee undertake a study on the Small Craft Harbours program, particularly its findings regarding the divestiture of wharves; that the Committee invite the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans, experts, government officials and industry stakeholders to discuss this issue, and that the Committee hold at least four meetings to do so; and that the Committee report its findings and recommendations to the House.
Thank you.
[English]
Thank you.
We've heard the notices of motions and we'll get to those when they come forward.
Do you have another one?
[Translation]
Allow me to suggest the following: We could establish priorities based on what was said today in subcommittee, given the large number of notices of motion filed.
[English]
I'm sure that will be a discussion not just at any subcommittee, but at committee of the whole as well. In the past, we found that the subcommittee didn't work real well for FOPO. When we came back here and had recommendations from the subcommittee, they always got hashed out pretty heavily, so we just leaned on the committee as an entire group to deal with the actual motions when they come forward.
I would remind everybody, of course, that all of these motions have to be provided to the clerk and the members in both official languages when they do come forward as a motion. Please do that, and do it even with your notice of motion, so that they have them on record and everybody will have them.
Is there any other business?
We have Mr. Kelloway.
Thank you, Chair.
I want to congratulate you on being chair.
I have to say that since the Newfoundland members were acknowledging each other, I have to acknowledge my counterpart in Nova Scotia.
It's great to see everybody here.
This may be a two-line pass as well, but it's just in terms of a point of clarification. With respect to the notices of motions on studies, others can be made at a later date, correct? When we come back in January, if there's a study that a collection of us folks are working on, we can bring that forth in a fashion similar to what we're doing now.
Yes. Any time we're doing committee business, a motion can be...actually, not just a notice of motion but a motion can be moved, debated and voted on at any time. We've seen that happen many times. We could set our schedule to do A, B and C and something will interrupt it. Somebody may move a motion to do something else and we may see the importance of it and get that done before we move any further on anything else that happens along the way.
That's not a problem.
Hearing nothing else, it's my understanding that our time slots for committee will be Tuesdays and Thursdays from 11 till 1. We do have Thursday coming up, of course. I don't know if it's the intent of the committee to meet on that particular day. Or do we leave it until we come back after the Christmas recess? I'm looking to the committee members for some direction.
Mr. Arnold.
Thank you, Chair.
The House calendar shows us sitting through till Friday. Are we going to be meeting on Thursday?
I would suggest we could meet on Thursday to discuss some of these motions and hopefully pass them to be moved forward.
If I'm not mistaken, this week was just the meeting for the founding of the committee.
[Translation]
I do not think there were any other opportunities to sit this week. The committees have agreed on this issue.
Is that correct, Mr. Chair?
[English]
I would concur with my colleague Mr. Arnold, and as a caucus we would support having a meeting Thursday at the same time as today, 11 to one. I would support that.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Very similar to what my colleague Caroline Desbiens was saying, I would like to see us have some sort of a working session, however that looks, in the new year, where we sit down to look at timeline priorities. I have some motions I'd like to bring forward as well, and I want to make sure we have the time to think about them thoroughly, have them available in both languages, and process and develop a timeline and priorities. I think that would be better suited to the new year than to Thursday.
I appreciate that, but we have a limited number of days to meet, and we already have a heavy schedule. I don't think we should pass up the opportunity to meet this Thursday or, frankly, even, as was suggested on the other side, to start in January and not wait until February to come back, because there's a lot of opportunity for us to get to work, and we need to get to work.
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I support what my colleague Mr. Perkins has said. As a former member of many committees and chair of one, I will say that if we get our studies figured out, work can be done over the next four to five weeks to organize witnesses and get everything ready for us to come back at the end of January so we hit the ground running. I think it's a great plan by Mr. Perkins.
Thanks.
Thanks, Mr. Chair.
The first thing I want to do is to take a course on putting my earphone in my ear.
I'm wondering if there's an openness among the committee here to look to you to see if you can touch base with whoever is doing the scheduling to ascertain, number one, whether there are translation services available on Thursday, there is space available on Thursday and things of that nature. There does seem to be some confusion as to what's on the schedule and what's not on the schedule. That's what I'm hearing, at least. That would be through you to whoever organizes the schedule and puts it together and depending on what's available and what's not available.
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
As far as we've seen, the committee is scheduled to meet Tuesdays and Thursdays from 11 until one, so I don't know if the scheduling would be a challenge or not.
There have been a number of notices of motion served today. If on Thursday we could at least get through the discussion of whether or not those motions would be approved, that would give us a much better opportunity to start forward planning so that when we come back in January, we could lay out timelines so that we know what motions we may be looking at. I would encourage us to meet on Thursday if possible.
Can I suggest that I allow the clerk to check on availability of room, time, translation and everything else that goes with it in order to be able to do that meeting on Thursday? If everything lines up, we'll probably plan a meeting for Thursday from 11 to one. If not, we'll send out a notification to everybody contrary to having a meeting and why it couldn't go ahead, so everybody would know and could make their plans around that, if everybody is okay with that suggestion.
Mr. Zimmer.
Since the clerk is sitting right beside you, is there a way to ask the clerk now if that's possible?
As far as the clerk knows, time and space are available for Thursday, slotted out for 11to 1. We'll make sure that is confirmed.
The only thing that would knock it off the rails would be if the House decided to recess on Wednesday instead of Friday, which, of course, for any of us who have been here for a little while, is not abnormal to have happen either. If that happens, we'll all know the meeting won't go ahead, but if the House is still sitting, it is scheduled for 11 to 1 on Thursday, and we'll try to get through as much business as possible.
We have Mr. Perkins.
Can I suggest that if we get thrown off that we hold a meeting as soon as possible in January to do the work that Mr. Arnold has outlined?
Yes. If something happens and we have votes—or whatever may happen on Thursday—if we're not sitting, I suggest that we organize a meeting as soon as possible after that and not wait until February.
Thank you.
I have just a question. There are a couple of points if we do meet on Thursday. The first is on the motions that are being moved. Will we be having a later conversation to determine prioritization and the timeline around those motions being moved? On the other piece, will I or any other members here today have an opportunity to bring forward new motions on Thursday?
I think we all need something to do with headphones and masks....
I would suggest to the committee that if we are able to meet on Thursday, we think about the timeliness of some of the issues that have been brought up. I would note in particular the tubbing issue on the west coast. Decisions have to be made on that, because they're due to go out fishing in a couple of months, and the sooner they know, the better. I'd just put that stake in the ground right now so that our discussion is focused.
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