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I call this meeting to order.
Welcome to meeting number 91 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans. This meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the Standing Orders.
Before we proceed, I simply want to remind members to be very careful when handling the earpieces, especially when your microphone or your neighbour's microphone is turned on. Earpieces placed too close to a microphone are one of the most common causes of sound feedback, which is extremely harmful to the interpreters and causes serious injury.
Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), we will study the subject matter of supplementary estimates (B), 2023-24: votes 1b, 5b and 10b under the Department of Fisheries and Oceans.
I would like to welcome our first panel of witnesses. Representing the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, we have with us Annette Gibbons, deputy minister; Richard Goodyear, assistant deputy minister and chief financial officer; and Adam Burns, assistant deputy minister, programs sector. We also have Mr. Chris Henderson, deputy commissioner of operations for the Canadian Coast Guard.
Thank you for taking the time to appear today.
Ms. Gibbons, you have up to five minutes for your opening statement, please.
I'd like to start by recognizing that we are gathered on the traditional territory of the Algonquin Anishinaabe people. We're happy to have the opportunity to do so.
My colleagues have already been introduced, so I will not do it again.
After my speech, we will be pleased to answer all your questions about our department's section of the supplementary estimates (B) for 2023-24.
[English]
Mr. Chair, Fisheries and Oceans Canada and the Canadian Coast Guard are seeking $356.4 million through the supplementary estimates (B), 2023-24. This consists of $340.5 million in voted appropriations, as well as $15.9 million in statutory appropriations. Taken together, this represents an 8% increase to our planned budget spending this fiscal year.
The $340.5-million increase in voted authorities can be mainly attributed to the following areas: $133.3 million “to advance reconciliation on Indigenous rights and fisheries issues”; $49.4 million “to continue [implementing] the Fish and Fish Habitat Protection Program provisions of the Fisheries Act”; $42.1 million for the Canadian Coast Guard's multi-purpose vessel project; and $24.7 million “to continue...to protect species at risk”.
A further $91 million is being requested for 20 additional items with lower funding requirements, as well as technical adjustments such as transfers to and from other government departments.
In terms of the $15.9 million in statutory appropriations, this amount is required for updated compensation and benefit forecasts for our employees.
The funding being requested through the supplementary estimates (B), 2023-24, will help Fisheries and Oceans Canada and the Canadian Coast Guard fulfill our mission while continuing to deliver the many essential services that we deliver for Canadians.
[Translation]
Mr. Chair, I'd like to take this opportunity to update you on the spending reductions identified across our department.
As you know, when budget 2023-24 was tabled last April, it included plans to reduce federal government spending. At the time, it was expected that the savings generated by efforts to refocus government spending would be $15.4 billion over five years and then $4.5 billion annually thereafter.
On November 9, the tabled the 2023-24 supplementary estimates (B) in the House of Commons. The estimates included the first update on how the Government of Canada is reducing its planned spending. More specifically, it detailed how $500 million in funding related to travel expenses, consulting services and professional services was refocused and withdrawn from the 2023-24 budgets of 68 departments.
[English]
Fisheries and Oceans Canada and the Canadian Coast Guard contributed to this exercise, and I can report that more than $25.7 million in spending has been frozen across our department.
This is only the first tranche of a multi-year effort to reduce government spending, and we're already looking to the future to determine where additional savings can be found across our department over subsequent years. Ultimately, this work will help refocus our spending, so it's going to the priorities that matter most to Canadians.
A voice: We're getting French translation on the English channel.
Ms. Gibbons, the minister's mandate letter states, and I quote, that she's to work to “make new investments and develop a conservation strategy to restore and rebuild wild Atlantic salmon”. Last year salmon anglers asked for an eight-week extension to the river guardian program. The minister provided a four-week extension, basically, to supply half the guardians. Basically, the minister provided one-quarter of what was asked for.
You just stated that you had an 8% increase in your budget, and DFO's budget has increased since 2015 by close to $5 billion. Why was, basically, a $2-million ask to provide protection for Atlantic salmon, in line with what was in the minister's mandate letter, not provided in Newfoundland and Labrador?
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Sure, and of course, the supplementary estimates number for the multi-purpose vessels project is just a very small piece of what we're doing under the national shipbuilding strategy to replace the Coast Guard fleet, so we're at different stages with all sorts of different types of vessels fit for different purposes at the three shipyards that are building the vessels.
We've already had several vessels delivered under the strategy, fishery research vessels, a lot of vessels for the Coast Guard to effectively support fishers in distress and other Canadians on the water. With the multipurpose vehicle, in particular, we are at the stage of designing the vessel. These are very long, detailed processes that require a lot of back-and-forth, so it's really critical that we continue that process.
Of course, for each ship project and each vessel within a given type of ship, it takes a certain amount of time to do all of the planning and all of the design, to buy the construction materials from different suppliers, wherever they may be, and then to actually start the work in the shipyard. Doing all of the outfitting takes a tremendous amount of time and lots of phasing with the other vessels.
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Sure. I'll give you a couple of examples on the Coast Guard.
Certainly, we're trying to spend more time in the Arctic, both as an expression of sovereignty and also as engagement with the communities in the Arctic and the economic interests of the people who live in the Arctic, so having the capacity to break ice, be present in the Arctic and do our research in DFO more months of the year is one change.
Also, we're just really making sure that we have vehicles that are fit for different purposes. Hence the multi-purpose vehicle, which is able to do a variety of different things, including breaking ice.
In terms of change and technology with our conservation protection function, one of the things we've had great success with—and I believe the committee heard about it recently—is our dark vessel detection platform, a piece of technology that we developed and are deploying with other countries around the world to be able to monitor illegal fishing on the high seas and close to different countries' shores. We recently signed an agreement with the Philippines to that effect, for them to deploy the dark vessel platform.
That's one example of how we're using that, and the department, like all departments these days, is looking at, as an example, how to deploy AI effectively in terms of our various functions, in terms of our corporate functions, HR, finance. That's something that we're of course at the beginning of but doing work on as well.
I'd like to thank the witnesses for being with us. I very much appreciate their presence.
I understand that the exercise is never simple, because their department is big and complicated. I take note of that every day.
I want to talk to you about the shrimp harvesters who are eagerly—I would now say “desperately”—waiting to hear from your department with respect to the moratorium, the closure, or possible sad news.
First of all, we'd like the answer to come quickly. Having said that, have you included in your appropriations any support for these fishers, aside from employment insurance? Not everyone is eligible for employment insurance.
Will your decision, which could be dramatic for these fishers, be supported in any way?
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When the cod fishery closed, support was provided to fishers. I think that the shrimp industry is a similar disaster, but it mainly affects Quebec.
I am the spokesperson for Quebec fishers, and it's a world I truly love. I was born on an island and I understand what it's like to make a living fishing.
Are you considering a specific measure for Quebec's fisheries? It's not that the fishers in other regions aren't fine people, but this specifically affects the fishers in Quebec. I know there are other options. I know, for example, that there's an application for a redfish licence.
Is there a way to tell the fishers who follow our work that there is hope and that we're going to do what we can to ensure predictability? As we know, we can't turn on a dime and change shrimp to redfish. It's not done on the corner of a desk; it's more complicated than that.
Can you tell them anything about that?
Welcome to our witnesses.
Mr. Chair, if I am able to do so, I will most certainly take a moment to acknowledge that we have some others here. I would acknowledge that we have with us Chief Murphy Abraham from the Lake Babine First Nation, as well as Dominique Nouvet, legal counsel. Also, from the Kitselas First Nation, we have Chief Councillor Glenn Bennett and Dr. David Try. That's just to mention that if I were able to acknowledge their presence, I would most certainly do so.
With that, I have some questions today, Deputy Minister Gibbons. As you know, Ms. Gibbons, first nations in northwest B.C. are stewards of the land and water, and have been for millennia. They are experts on sockeye salmon migration in the waters. They know the importance of ensuring that the keystone species is protected for future generations.
Today I wanted to ask some questions about where we currently are with treaty negotiations, with working alongside first nations on this necessary work to protect sockeye salmon. I understand that first nations in northwest B.C. are nearing the completion of treaties with British Columbia and Canada, including chapters related to fisheries.
I'm wondering, Ms. Gibbons, if you could provide the committee with an update on how the fisheries-related provisions in those treaties are progressing.
As you know, these are very long negotiation processes. We want to make sure that we take the time to really understand what the communities want. Of course, in fisheries, in most cases stocks are not in increasing abundance, right? There are some, but in general we have declines in many of the stocks on the coast, so it's very challenging to be able to meet all the requests and requirements of communities.
There's a requirement for money to offset the cost of acquiring allocations to meet obligations and quotas. There is a huge financial component to what we do, and we're taking the time to identify what all those amounts are and go through our approval process—
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Thank you, Ms. Gibbons.
We're seeing a lot of movement, and what I'm hearing from many first nations is that we are seeing a lot of movement happening by the British Columbia government to work alongside first nations, to see positive movement through reconciliation in working with first nations on this important work, but we're seeing what I'm hearing described as “stalling”, as “hitting a wall”, on the federal end. Can you explain why we're seeing such deferred action? Why are we not seeing the action that's necessary?
I understand that it takes time, but it's getting to a point where there are some serious concerns. We know, to the point that you made at the beginning, that the stocks are dwindling. Now more than ever, we need to see the federal government working alongside first nations, who understand these stocks better than those who are here in Ottawa. Why the delay, and what can be done today? What commitment can be done, starting today, to assure first nations that this work is going to happen moving forward?
Ms. Gibbons, for eight years I've been raising the alarm of the threats of aquatic invasive species, in particular zebra mussels and quagga mussels, into waters in British Columbia.
When you and the were here on October 26, I reiterated the need for the federal government to provide fair allocation of federal resources for AIS prevention in B.C. Last month, four fellow B.C. MPs and I sent a letter to the minister, pressing her to act and ensure fair allocation of resources. Multiple conservation organizations have also written to the minister, pressing on this matter.
Has the discussed actions with you for the rebalancing of allocations for aquatic invasive species prevention?
In the same vein, we've been talking for a long time about reopening the redfish fishery. In fact, when Minister Murray was in office, this possibility was studied, and then a new minister was appointed. We had a fisheries conference where everybody was represented.
I can tell you that, in Quebec, our fishers are downtrodden. In New Brunswick, fishermen have the right to pick algae, they have the right to catch redfish to a certain extent, as well as many species. There seems to be a bit of a dark cloud hanging over Quebec, because not much ever happens.
In the coming months, what will your priorities be for Quebec in terms of replacement fisheries and financial or other support? What are your priorities for Quebec?
Ms. Gibbons, recently, along the west coast of Vancouver Island, we saw that a boat.... I don't actually know exactly what happened. Whether it overturned, I think, is still being investigated. However, there were two people, mariners, in distress. One of the mariners has since been found passed away, and the other one is still missing.
Unfortunately, in the aftermath of that incident, it was discovered that the Coast Guard's radio direction-finding capability, which of course is based on well-established technology, has been allowed to fall into such a state of disrepair that it is no longer functional.
Can you speak to this? How could we have let this technology fail mariners at sea? How could we ensure their safety?
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Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, witnesses.
Maybe you could table a document on this at a further time with the committee. It's on the recently announced roughly 5,200 traps awarded for the third year in a row, which I think is temporary—I don't know how long it is for temporary to become permanent—for moderate livelihood licences. Could you table with this committee the banked licences that came from the control numbers and the LFAs that were used for that, please?
As well, could you also table with this committee, on the licence buyback program in the east coast, how much has been spent, how many licences have been bought and for what species, please?
Now, my first question is for the deputy commissioner.
In 2008, the polar class 1 icebreaker was announced at a cost of $720 million. Now we're up to, I believe, three that we're going to build. Three years ago, the estimate by the Parliamentary Budget Officer was that this was at a cost of $7.2 billion or $2.4 billion per ship. That's going from $720 million to $2.4 billion, I think it was, per ship. That's times three.
In that report, he estimated that if there was a one-year delay, that would add another $235 million to the construction of it, and if it was a two-year delay, which we're almost up to, it would add almost another half a billion dollars. Have you updated the financial numbers to know how much over budget these icebreakers are, since they haven't started construction?
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Thank you, Mr. Kelloway. We're on the mark of 12 o'clock, anyway, so I'm glad you ended it when you did. I think you had 45 seconds left, and it's very gracious of you to give that up.
We'll now thank, of course, our first panel here this morning: Annette Gibbons, deputy minister; Richard Goodyear, assistant deputy minister and chief financial officer; Adam Burns, assistant deputy minister, programs sector; and Chris Henderson, deputy commissioner of operations for the Canadian Coast Guard.
You've always been quite receptive when we invite you to come before committee. Again, thank you for your time today.
We'll suspend for a moment while we switch out the panels.
Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on January 18, 2022, the committee is resuming its study on illegal, unreported and unregulated fishing.
I would like to make a few comments for the benefit of the new witnesses.
Please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. For those participating by video conference, click on the microphone icon to activate your mic, and please mute yourself when you are not speaking. For interpretation on Zoom, you have the choice, at the bottom of your screen, of floor, English or French audio. Those in the room can use the earpiece and select the desired channel.
All comments should be addressed through the chair.
I would now like to welcome our witnesses. Representing the B.C. Commercial Fishing Caucus, we have Jim McIsaac, coordinator, via Zoom. From the Unified Fisheries Conservation Alliance, we have Colin Sproul, president.
We'll start off now, for five minutes or less, with Mr. McIsaac.
:
Good morning, everybody, or good afternoon.
I'd really like to thank the committee for the invitation to speak today on IUU fishing. I'm here as a coordinator for the BC Commercial Fishing Caucus, a group formed 13 years ago by 14 commercial fishing organizations to support the common interests of small-scale fisheries along the B.C. coast.
I've been involved in commercial fisheries since I was a kid, about 40 years ago. Fishing paid my way through university, and when I graduated, I stayed fishing because I love the lifestyle: I love the coast; I love fishing; I love studying fishing, and I love providing good, healthy food to my family, my friends and my community. I was in Japan a few weeks at a seafood summit, learning about their fishery. It really is a different world there.
For me, IUU fishing is poaching.
I was first introduced to the term about 10 or 12 years ago in the international context, when Google announced support to create the Global Fishing Watch. They offered to provide their big data management to map international fishing efforts and to shine a light on IUU fishing intrusions into EEZs. In the very earliest stages, they asked the commercial fishing sector to help identify different types of fishing tracks, and we did that. Some states—Indonesia—have gone to extreme measures to protect their EEZs, sending navy vessels to sink foreign fishing vessels. As an aside, Indonesia has protected 80% of the TAC in its EEZ for local, small-scale fishers.
I'd say that Global Fishing Watch has been very successful in raising the profile of IUU fishing and in helping to keep foreign fleets out of EEZs.
What does IUU mean in the Canadian context?
Two months ago, there was a media article on illegal tuna fishing off the west coast of Vancouver Island. Through the chair, I've circulated links to that article. DFO calls this illegal fishing. I would not. From the news article, you'd think that DFO is doing a fantastic job of catching illegal fisheries inside our EEZs. They were patrolling our ocean estate off the west coast of Vancouver Island, found a vessel with illegal catch, confiscated 32,000 pounds of tuna worth $130,000, dragged the fisherman to court and fined him a further $6,000.
Some very important facts were left out of that media article. The fisherman had legally fished tuna for over a decade, had purchased a $1,500 tuna logbook just before going out and hailed out to DFO prior to leaving for tuna fishing. He had been fishing for almost a month and was heading in to deliver when DFO approached the vessel. In the rush to go fishing, the fisherman forgot to buy a $32 annual tuna licence tab.
You'd think the regulator would bear some responsibility for providing a hail-out number, or maybe they should have called him back when he ordered a $1,500 logbook, but no. Here, DFO gets praised for capturing the vessel that told them they were going tuna fishing, bought and filled out a tuna logbook, used legal hooks and gear, fished in an open fishing area and spent a month on the water with their vessel identification system on, so that anyone could track the vessel, including DFO. They were not hiding anything.
The whole incident cost the fisherman over $200,000. In court, the judge asked DFO why they sought only a $6,000 fine; he thought $60,000 would be more appropriate. DFO responded that the whole incident was based on a mistake. The judge laughed and upheld the $130,000 confiscation and $6,000 fine as submitted. This is not funny.
In 2022, sockeye salmon was available for sale all along the Fraser River. You could get it off Facebook. You could get it out of the back of pickup trucks all along the lower Fraser. Thought most fishermen, how could this be when both the commercial and FSC fisheries were closed? To me, this is IUU fishing. DFO's response was to open a commercial fishery for six hours to blur the illegal sales.
We have a couple of recommendations.
DFO enforcement needs civilian oversight. Left on their own, they appear to cherry-pick the easy—typically, licensed fishermen who report out with logbooks, VMS and electronic monitoring—and leave the real poachers alone.
If the committee is to use the term “IUU”, it should define it. Does it mean the same in local settings as it does in international ones? If you are licensed to fish, report your catch and are found to have caught a fish too small or of the wrong species, is this poaching?
Canada needs to define small-scale, artisanal and subsistence fishing and define industrial fishing, so that a 3,000-horsepower trawler catching 100,000 pounds in one tow is not treated the same as a 40-foot lingcod fisherman catching one fish at a time.
Thanks again for the invitation.
:
Good afternoon, Chair and committee members. Thank you for the opportunity to appear today.
I speak on behalf of the Unified Fisheries Conservation Alliance. We represent more than 3,000 multispecies harvesters in the maritime provinces. Members of the UFCA, along with its partners in the fisheries sector, are responsible for supporting 25,000 jobs and contributing $4 billion in economic activity in the Maritimes each year.
The UFCA was formed to bring together many participants in the Atlantic fishery in one reasonable and co-operative voice. The UFCA recognizes the importance of co-operation with indigenous communities and that indigenous peoples have a right to fish for food, social, ceremonial and commercial purposes.
Today, I call the committee's attention to the presence of a massive illegal fishery taking place in the coastal bays of the Maritimes under the guise of a lawful food, social, and ceremonial fishery, particularly in St. Marys Bay. After years of drawing attention to this problem, fishermen in southwest Nova Scotia are left outraged at the perceived complicity of DFO and saddened beyond measure for the destruction of a resource that has sustained all of our families for generations.
Despite many assertions by the government since 2016 that DFO would enforce existing law, they have done anything but. We have been witnesses to a full-scale commercial fishery on one of the most important lobster spawning grounds in the world.
Let me be clear: It is not now and never will be appropriate to fish on spawning grounds during the moulting and breeding seasons. This misconduct is not supported by the Sparrow or Marshall decisions or by any sense of justice or sustainability.
Throughout the recent assault on the resource, DFO has focused on communications and spin while hindering law enforcement objectives. Amidst these conflicting claims, let's concentrate on facts.
On July 11, the director of conservation and protection for the maritime region told CBC News that “[Conservation and protection] is very well equipped to enforce the lobster fishery upcoming,” in reference to the FSC fishery. He went on, “In terms of our capability to adequately monitor compliance of [FSC licences] this summer, I can assure you that [C and P] does have resources to do that effectively in areas such as St. Marys Bay.”
Yet, despite all of these assurances, on August 30, at the Nova Scotia-New Brunswick border, authorities seized more than 8,000 lobsters from St. Marys Bay. Revealingly, this was not due to investigative efforts by DFO, but because the truck carrying the lobsters broke down at the provincial border scale and suspicious officials there reported it. Also, this fall, the UFCA conducted overflights of Saulnierville harbour. On October 5, we observed approximately 25,000 pounds of lobster crated for sale and floating in the harbour and, on October 13, another 12,000 pounds.
Given these huge volumes of lobster landed illegally, how can the director's statements be accurate? Fishing communities are left with only two possible conclusions: Either the department is incredibly incompetent or it is deceiving Canadians, fishing families and the members of this committee.
It's also important to note that of the charges that have been filed across the Maritimes for out-of-season fishing by frontline C and P officers, very few have been moved forward by the Public Prosecution Service of Canada. This has left harvesters understandably suspicious that the justice process in fisheries is suffering from political interference.
If the government were serious about stopping this illegal fishery, DFO could take the simple steps of conducting enforcement patrols and surveillance at the select few harbours where a majority of the illegal fishing is taking place. They could follow the catch to market and end this fishery in a matter of weeks. Instead, they avoid reasonable law enforcement tactics and take actions designed to obscure reality and generate the appearance of enforcement. I can think of no better example of this than the department tasking an icebreaker to St. Marys Bay this summer after public outrage about the illegal fishery—a ship with no ability to enforce a lobster fishery, and surely a huge waste of taxpayer dollars.
Most importantly, we should all recognize what stands to be lost. Although DFO has made attempts to obscure its own data, it shows a sharp decline in lobster landings in St. Marys Bay after the failed policy objectives of this government. This is the first week of southwest Nova Scotia's lobster fishery, the most valuable in the world. Alarmingly, reports are flooding in from across the region of extremely low landings, when fishers should expect their best catches.
Much of the prosperity of our coastal economy is predicated on a healthy lobster resource, and that prosperity now faces an existential threat. The loss of this fishery would devastate our communities, indigenous and non-indigenous alike. The continued acceptance of this activity by the government does not serve the objectives of conservation or reconciliation. If DFO does not act soon, there may be no fishery left for the UFCA's members or for rights holders. The fishing families of the Maritimes demand action now, before all is lost.
Chair and committee members, thank you. I invite your questions.
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I think the results are already becoming evident.
We just saw the closure of one of the largest lobster processors in southwest Nova Scotia. In the media, the owners of the company said it was due to a lack of product being processed there. We're already starting to see it. We've seen a decline in catches over the last six or seven years in St. Marys Bay and all across southwest Nova Scotia. The fishing industry is starting to draw a link between this and the incredible amount of lobster being removed out of season, as well as damage to the breeding stock resource.
The long-term consequences are.... The fact is, the lobster fishery is the economic backbone of Nova Scotia. It's by far the most important industry. It's the same in Prince Edward Island and New Brunswick, too. It's incredibly important to our economies, and to coastal communities, both indigenous and non-indigenous. Anything that endangers the resource needs to be taken seriously by the department.
Conservation needs to come first, and ideology and politics after.
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I was really hoping to be asked that question today.
This summer, our members and fishermen across the maritime provinces were polled by Nanos, and the poll showed some really interesting things. I think one of the most important things it revealed was that 67% of harvesters in the Maritimes said that they view current DFO management as a threat to the future of their fisheries. That's a really shocking statistic, and I think it should be front and centre on the 's desk—to help to overcome that problem.
The follow-on effect is that there's a lack of respect on the water for frontline DFO C and P staff, which is not their fault, and it makes their jobs really difficult. When they go aboard one of our members' boats—members who have just viewed the resource that their families depend on being fished in a totally unsustainable manner, and then they're attempting to abide by the law all the time.... It makes members not as willing to be cordial with frontline DFO staff, and I think that's really unfortunate. However, that lack of respect for the department and for conservation measures is being bred by the department, which is also evidencing a lack of respect for conservation to our members.
Mr. Sproul, I know that we've already covered quite a few questions, and I feel that you've given us some good information, so perhaps I won't go on for too long, and then I'll go to Mr. McIsaac.
One thing I'm trying to understand.... I know it's a very complex issue, and I don't even want to try to pretend to understand all of the complexity and intricacies of the situation and what's happening in Nova Scotia, but we do know that we had a lot of learning—at least, that's the hope—that came from what occurred a few years ago with the Mi'kmaq in making sure there was communication around Mi'kmaq conservation principles, the knowledge that was being used by Mi'kmaq fishers. One thing that came up—at least, to my knowledge—was that there was a breakdown in communication, and that information wasn't being transferred appropriately to indigenous and non-indigenous fishers, which resulted in increased tensions.
I just want to highlight some of the things you brought up. You brought up that you're not seeing reports being collected. Could you speak a bit more about what information you're receiving from the DFO around the actual data and reports of what's happening on the water, and maybe as a follow-up to that, what you feel would be a good avenue to bring everybody to the table to have the same information, to see more collaborations? That's just a vital piece here in moving forward. Could you provide some comments on that?
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I actually think it's central to resolution of the issue. It's something we have harped on to DFO for years. If we could understand what the nature of rights implementation would be so that we could relay that to our members, the integration would happen much more smoothly.
The answer to the first part of your question is nothing. We don't receive any information. We have been kept totally in the dark as the government has hidden behind the nation-to-nation process.
While we have great respect for the nation-to-nation process, there are other examples, such as that of the Northwest Atlantic Fisheries Organization, of how the government engages in nation-to-nation processes and also has the industry represented at a table in a separate room. There's that mechanism for the government to share information with us and for us to provide our expertise to the government as well, but they refuse to do that.
More importantly, it's incumbent on the and on the government to create a place to bring first nations harvesters and non-indigenous harvesters back to the table again. Surely the responsibility falls to the government to find a way forward for all of us. We're eager to sit down at the table with our first nations partners. Ultimately, a lobster doesn't care who catches it. We all intend to share the ocean together profitably into the future. We really hope that the minister of the day can find a way to bring us back to the table together, because having everything happen in silos of secrecy has not been at all conducive to improving the situation.
:
The use of the term really has come from the foreign fleets fishing in EEZs. EEZs were created in the 1970s. We had foreign fishing vessels fishing within sight of our coast up until 1977, and then some encroachments on that after 1977 as well.
We have this split jurisdiction between managing fisheries and managing processing and the markets. That creates a complicated kind of milieu in which to deal with some of the issues.
In the case of salmon, if DFO is managing the fishery and the fish are all over the market, what is the province supposed to do? Is it supposed to go out there and stop the sale of that fish, when it's not the one that is regulating the actual fishery? It's a really mixed bag here.
I would put the responsibility of the harvest onto DFO. Fishermen have been talking about the illegal fishing in the Fraser River for more than 30 years. A few years ago, when they were reporting, the department was confiscating something like 1,000 nets a year in the river. They're down to confiscating 200 or 300 now. When they reported 1,000, they said they were getting only about 10% of it. The number of fish, through legal fishing on the river, was lower than that in the days for the actual commercial fishery.
The entire system appears to be broken. We're heading to a place where we're not going to have legal commercial fisheries anymore because of the structure and the system that's been put in place.
:
Certainly, the lobster resource is cyclical. The catches go up and down throughout the years. Catches are affected by environmental factors and lots of other things, but we believe that there is beginning to be a cumulative effect, especially in places like southwest Nova Scotia and eastern Cape Breton, where a lot of the fishery is taking place.
I think the important thing to point out is not the amount of lobster, but the location where the fisheries are being operated. They're very important, shallow, warm fishery spawning grounds that haven't had fishing in them, by a self-imposed rule from lobster fishermen, for more than 100 years, because we've understood the importance of those places.
We believe the cumulative effect is not only related to the lobster that's coming ashore, but also to the damage to breeding females when they're in such a vulnerable stage around their moult in the summertime.
I think that's why it's so important to deal with the issue.
:
Sadly, there's a huge lack of communication between fishery leadership right now and first nations leadership in the Maritimes, because of the unfortunate situation that unfolded in 2020.
What I'll say about it is this. Every fisher in Atlantic Canada recognizes that there's a direct link between people who are fishing out of season and first nations who lease their access delivered in the Marshall implementation strategy with non-indigenous fishing companies.
What I mean by that is a lot of the people who are fishing out of season in places like St. Marys Bay are citizens of nations who have been dispossessed of the entirety of their fishery access that's been delivered over the last 23 years. It's leased by first nations governments for a direct economic benefit for the nation, but it really misses the real value of the Marshall implementation, which in our view is not about lobsters on a wharf or dollars in a bank account. It's about creating a lasting legacy of prosperity for coastal first nations and creating fishing families like our members.
That is what we view as the real benefit that should be delivered to first nations, and they're continually losing that through the government's refusal to put caveats on the access that require participation by only indigenous people.
:
That could take a couple of days.
In brief, their fishing act has one similarity to ours. It came out in 1868, the same year. That's where the similarity ends.
They download the responsibility for fisheries management onto the prefecture, which would be equivalent to our provinces or regional governments, rather than doing it centrally. All of the licensing for small-scale fisheries goes through that prefecture. The prefecture ensures that licensing is local. With local ownership and participation, all of the benefits are in that local area.
DFO was just doing a beneficial ownership study of who gets the benefit of our fishing licences. DFO was really happy to report that one in five licence-holders wouldn't even respond to that, but they thought that only 2% were foreign-owned. That is disrespectful of the question and disrespectful of our communities.
We need to know who is benefiting. It's only the local communities that are really going to care about that.
Mr. Sproul, we don't have a lot of time.
In a school zone, certain conditions must be met. If someone speeds or doesn't behave properly, the penalty can be very severe. If they pass a school bus, it can cost them dearly, because the consequences can be dramatic. It can cost lives.
I'm comparing school zones and fishing zones so that you understand the essence of my question.
We know that there are areas where fisheries can undermine the reproduction and sustainability of the resource. In your opinion, should we consider the possibility of enhancing surveillance in those areas and increasing the penalties? Do you think that could have a beneficial effect for the future? In doing so, could we educate people and influence their behaviour?
Thank you, Mr. Sproul, for being here today.
I'm going to direct the remainder of my questions to Mr. McIsaac.
Mr. McIsaac, I appreciate that my colleague, Mr. Arnold, brought up the prawn tubbing example that happened in British Columbia, because it's just such a good example of what happens when we have decisions being made by those who don't actually understand the fishery on the water. Perhaps they have good intentions, but I think the prawn tubbing example is just such a good example of a lack of understanding of how it actually works on the water versus high-level...theoretically how one would like to see it work.
I'm wondering if you can speak to that a bit, around the importance that this work, moving forward, include in the decision-making process those who are on the water, so that the steps forward are applicable and actually helpful on the water.
:
Yes, that's a great question. Thank you for that.
Where do I start with that?
Tying and linking to harvesters is critical for all different components of the fisheries and for understanding what's going on in the water, understanding the science and the data that science is actually collecting, helping interpret that, and helping to ensure that the benefits of the fishery are coming through the communities.
It's something that I would say.... The whole social aspect of fisheries is one that the DFO appears to have—and has—turned a blind eye to over the last 150 years. It doesn't seem to be of interest to the department. What the department is doing with foreign beneficial ownership of our fishery is an example of that, but what it's doing with first nations and what it did in the Marshall decision by handing over licences without kind of thinking about who's going to benefit from them and about how they can actually be used to make sure they are being used in the way that's intended....
The DFO sets the frame for all of that stuff, yet it doesn't pay attention to the real, important matters of that. It's just kind of like the issue about setting a table for collaboration. The DFO can set that table so that people can come together and help decide what's best to do with the fishery, but it's not. It's not doing that. It's not setting a table that is open for those kinds of collaborative solutions.
:
Thank you, Ms. Barron. You're a bit over.
That concludes our committee meeting for today, I guess.
I want to say a big thank you to Mr. Sproul and Mr. McIsaac for sharing their valuable knowledge with the committee today as we work our way through this particular study.
On Thursday, we will resume the study with the appearance of witnesses. I will let the committee know that I won't be here on Thursday. I'll be out of town, and Mr. Arnold will be asked to chair, so there's a chance that we can maybe get back at some people somehow.
Mr. Ken Hardie: Oh, no!
Mr. Mel Arnold: It's an inexcusable absence of the chair.
Some hon. members: Oh, oh!
The Chair: Again, thank you to everyone: our analysts, our clerks, our translation team, and everybody who made the meeting possible and such a success today.
Thank you, everyone, and enjoy the rest of your day.