:
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you for inviting me to appear. As the Clerk of the Journals in the United Kingdom House of Commons, I'm the House's expert on parliamentary privilege. I do also know something about our administrative practices, but other witnesses may be better able to speak about them.
I think I would start by saying that the privileges of the Canadian House are of course very closely linked to the privileges of the House of Commons here, but it's important to remember that your privileges will have evolved in subtly different ways. One thing I find surprising is that the Canadian House of Commons has waived its privilege of freedom of speech to allow courts and inquiries to look at proceedings. We consider that, as article IX of the Bill of Rights is enshrined in statute, it cannot be waived.
I understand from your proceedings that various matters have arisen, namely, whether intimidation of a member is a contempt; committee powers to demand confidential papers; and the power to summon witnesses. Here, if I understand it correctly, the committee is considering such matters as powers against those outside the Canadian jurisdiction. I can go into more detail in answer to questions, but I'll turn to each in turn.
In paragraph 15.2, Erskine May states the following:
any act or omission which obstructs or impedes either House of Parliament in the performance of its functions, or which obstructs or impedes any Member or officer of such House in the discharge of their duty, or which has a tendency, directly or indirectly, to produce such results, may be treated as a contempt even though there is no precedent of the offence.
So, intimidating a member is certainly capable of being treated as a contempt. Erskine May gives numerous examples of when it has been treated as such.
Most committees in the United Kingdom House of Commons have power to call for persons, papers and records. In practice, they do not need to use these powers. They discuss matters with particular witnesses and agree consensually. When this does not work, the committee can agree an order to attend or to produce papers.
If the order is not obeyed, the committee itself has no power to enforce it. It must report to the House, which itself may then make an order. It is, however, difficult for the House to enforce its orders against anyone other than a member of the House. In theory, it has powers to imprison, but as has been explored by our Committee of Privileges quite recently, its procedures do not meet modern expectations of the way in which such punishments should be inflicted. In practice it has confined itself to admonishment. Our Committee of Privileges has made proposals for such contempts to be handled by the courts, but there isn't much progress on that matter.
The House's powers to order documents are, however, effective against government. In recent years, on several occasions the House has agreed motions for returns to force the government to release documents by either laying them before the House, or, when papers were sensitive, laying them before a committee. In 2018 the House found ministers in contempt for their failure to comply with the requirements of the motion for return, passed on November 13 that year, to publish the final and full legal advice provided by the Attorney General to the cabinet concerning the EU withdrawal agreement and the framework for the future relationship. When they passed that motion, the legal advice was provided.
It's notable that one order provided for papers to be made available to committees or members on a confidential basis, and another anticipated that redactions might be made “solely for the purposes of national security”. Another set of papers was provided with redactions made to protect the identity of officials in email chains. This was not challenged.
To sum up, yes, intimidation could be considered a contempt. Committees and the House have power to call for papers, but there can be practical barriers to enforcing their orders. The House itself can decide to call for papers in ways that allow for limited access to those papers.
:
Thank you. It's an honour to be called to testify.
My name is Sam Cooper and I am now reporting for my own journalism platform, The Bureau. The Bureau's first two stories are relevant to your examination today of information I reviewed in documents regarding Beijing's “Threatening Canada's elected officials to deter criticism”.
First, I wish to inform the committee of how I collected knowledge on these matters in the past decade. While covering foreign investment in Vancouver real estate, I started researching foreign interference in connection with the public statements of former CSIS director Richard Fadden in 2010.
In September 2014, for The Province newspaper, I authored a story entitled, “Is China influencing B.C.’s municipal politicians?” The story, using access to information, examined CSIS documents.
In March 2015, for The Province, I authored another story entitled, “Chinese police run secret operations in B.C. to hunt allegedly corrupt officials and laundered money”.
I believe these stories provide historical context for this committee.
Now I'll go to the 2021 federal election.
I’ll quote from now-public information in my June 17 article for The Bureau, which was an extended interview with .
In the published interview, I told :
I've reported about this January 2022 Privy Council Office intelligence report, sourced from 100 CSIS reports...what the document said, is that a “small number of MPs in the 2021 election reported concern for their families, their privacy, their reputations, and their reelection chances, as a result of targeted CCP activity.”
answered:
...that's very troubling to hear. I'm not surprised, because when I was briefed on the examples of intelligence that were shared with me.... And some of the activities were so intense in the Greater Toronto Area and the Lower Mainland of British Columbia, it would not surprise me if people were followed. Tabs kept on people, intimidation, voter suppression.
I questioned again, saying:
I learned from sources aware of CSIS investigations in 2021, that CSIS officers found that Chinese officials in Toronto were following one MP during the campaign.
They were also allegedly approaching voters in relation to this candidate. And CSIS found this activity, I was told, coordinated and alarming.
answered:
Well, that seems to coordinate or correspond completely with the fourth element that I included in my speech in the House of Commons.
Which is one clear example of voter suppression in a riding in Canada.
Finally, I'll quote from the preamble to my interview with in my article. In it, I explain that I personally received a CSIS threat brief in 2021 after my book on Chinese foreign interference in Canada was published.
I wrote this in my June 17 article for The Bureau:
So, a CSIS officer met me in Ottawa.... I was told that Chinese security agents in Canada are dangerous. And they were tasked to look into my background, study the impact of my book, and to discover my reporting sources.
I believe this information provides important context for the committee on the Chinese Communist Party seeking to influence or intimidate journalists in the same way it seeks to influence or threaten Canadian politicians.
I look forward to your questions, but I am sure the honourable members understand I take the protection of my sources very seriously. Please understand I cannot answer questions about identifying confidential sources, or speak about editorial or legal processes regarding my prior reporting.
Thanks.
:
Thank you very much, Madam Chair
Thank you for being with us today, Mr. Cooper and Mr. Elcock.
Mr. Cooper, today we can see that the Liberals, who have been the party in power for nearly 8 years, have desperately been trying to undermine your credibility since your article appeared on November 7 last. They very promptly denounced the article and denied the affair. As we saw again today, they attacked the messenger rather than the problem that you had revealed in your article.
And yet, on May 3, 2018, world press freedom day, the Prime Minister claimed we should celebrate the work of journalists around the world in order to protect democracy. He said, "Canada will always defend journalistic freedom and stand against any violence, intimidation, censorship, and false arrests used to silence journalists."
Mr. Cooper, other journalists have followed the story since your article appeared. Pieces of information were confirmed over time, and a diplomat was expelled. The existence of the memorandum was confirmed, and Chinese police stations were disrupted, although we don't know whether they've been shut down.
We have learned that some MPs, Michael Chong, Erin O'Toole and Jenny Wai Ching Kwan, were targeted by Beijing. Since the Minister of Public Safety raised the ban on revealing the facts to the members targeted by the Beijing regime, CSIS has informed the members of the threats weighing against them.
In the interview that you conducted with him and in his speech to the House, Mr. O'Toole confirmed the existence of a Beijing-funded network to interfere in our elections.
We've learned that the ministers or the Prime Minister have disregarded CSIS's briefings.
We've had a special rapporteur, who proved to be more special for his links to the Liberals than for the relevance of his findings. He has now resigned.
Despite all the articles published on the subject, and in spite of your book, it seems clear that the Liberals don't have the slightest intention to shed light on foreign interference in our elections.
Mr. Cooper, what are your observations regarding the relevance of an independent public inquiry into the Beijing regime's interference in our elections?
:
Thank you very much, Madam Chair.
The motion reads:
That, in relation to its order of reference of Wednesday, May 10, 2023, concerning the intimidation campaign orchestrated by Wei Zhao against the Member for Wellington—Halton Hills and other Members, the Committee
(a) expand the scope of this study, further to the Speaker’s ruling of Wednesday, May 31, 2023, and the evidence of the Acting Clerk of the House on Thursday, June 8, 2023, to include the matters raised in the House by the Honourable Erin O’Toole on Tuesday, May 30, 2023;
(b) makes the evidence received during this study available for its study on foreign election interference;
(c) hold at least eight meetings, of at least two hours’ length, between Tuesday, July 4, 2023, and Friday, September 8, 2023, on dates to be determined by the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure, for the purposes of hearing witnesses and considering related committee business;
(d) invites each of the following to appear on his or her own:
(i) the Honourable Erin O’Toole, for two hours,
(ii) the Honourable Dominic LeBlanc, Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, Infrastructure and Communities, for two hours,
(iii) the Honourable Ian Shugart, former Clerk of the Privy Council, for one hour,
(iv) Janice Charette, Clerk of the Privy Council, for one hour,
(v) Rob Stewart, former Deputy Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness, for one hour,
(vi) Marta Morgan, former Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs, for one hour,
(vii) Greta Bossenmaier, former National Security and Intelligence Advisor to the Prime Minister, for one hour,
(viii) Gina Wilson, former Deputy Minister of Public Safety, for one hour,
(ix) Paul MacKinnon, Deputy Secretary to the Cabinet (Governance), for one hour,
(x) Zita Astravas, Chief of Staff to the President of the King’s Privy Council for Canada and Minister of Emergency Preparedness, for two hours,
(xi) Jeffrey Hutchinson, former Interim Assistant Secretary to the Cabinet (Emergency Preparedness), for one hour,
(xii) Marie-Hélène Chayer, Executive Director of the Privy Council Office Task Force on Foreign Interference, for two hours, and
(xiii) Allen Sutherland, Assistant Secretary to the Cabinet (Machinery of Government and Democratic Institutions), for one hour;
(e) invites the following to appear on panels: (i) Navigator Ltd. officials who had been providing support to Special Rapporteur David Johnston and to Han Dong, for two hours, and (ii) Don Guy and Brian Topp, founding partners, gt&co, for two hours;
(f) re-invites each of the following to appear on his or her own: (i) the Honourable Mélanie Joly, Minister of Foreign Affairs, for one hour, (ii) Mike MacDonald, former Acting National Security and Intelligence Advisor to the Prime Minister, for one hour, (iii) Cong Peiwu, Ambassador of the People’s Republic of China to Canada, for two hours, (iv) Sheila Block, Counsel to Special Rapporteur David Johnston, for two hours, and (v) Valérie Gervais, Founder and Chief Executive Officer, RKESTRA, for one hour;
(g) invites each of the following to re-appear on his own: (i) the Honourable Bill Blair, former Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness, for an additional hour, and (ii) the Right Honourable David Johnston for an additional two hours, following the publication of his final report;
(h) directs that a summons do issue to Michael Chan, former Ontario Liberal cabinet minister, to appear, on his own for two hours, at a date and time fixed by the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure, but no later than Friday, September 8, 2023;
(i) order the production, within three weeks, of
(i) the July 2021 CSIS report entitled “People’s Republic of China Foreign Interference in Canada: A Critical National Security Threat” and the May 2021 CSIS issues management note sent to the then-Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness respecting the Beijing regime’s intention to target Members of this House, together with all records concerning the transmission to, distribution within, analysis of and handling by, the Prime Minister’s Office, the Privy Council Office, the Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development and the Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness, of this report, and
(ii) all other memoranda, briefing notes, e-mails, records of conversations, and any other relevant documents, including any drafts, which are in the possession of any government department or agency, including the Security and Intelligence Threats to Elections Task Force, the Critical Election Incident Protocol Panel, any minister’s office, and the Prime Minister’s Office, containing information concerning
(A) planning or efforts by, or on behalf of, foreign governments or other foreign state actors to intimidate a Member of the House of Commons, or
(B) the matters raised by the Honourable Erin O’Toole in the House of Commons on Tuesday, May 30, 2023, provided that
(iii) these documents be deposited without redaction, in both official languages, with the Office of the Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel,
(iv) a copy of the documents shall also be deposited, in both official languages, with the Office of the Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel, with any proposed redaction of information which, in the government’s opinion, could reasonably be expected to compromise the identities of employees or sources or intelligence-collecting methods of Canadian or allied intelligence agencies,
(v) the Office of the Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel shall promptly notify the Committee whether the Office is satisfied that the documents were produced as ordered, and, if not, the Chair shall be instructed to present forthwith, on behalf of the Committee, a report to the House outlining the material facts of the situation,
(vi) the Office of the Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel shall assess the redactions proposed by the government, pursuant to subparagraph (iv), to determine whether the Office agrees that the proposed redactions conform with the criteria set out in subparagraph (iv) and
(A) if it agrees, it shall provide the documents, as redacted by the government pursuant to subparagraph (iv), to the Clerk of the Committee, or
(B) if it disagrees with some or all of the proposed redactions, it shall provide a copy of the documents, redacted in the manner the Office determines would conform with the criteria set out in paragraph (iv), together with a report indicating the number, extent and nature of the government’s proposed redactions which were disagreed with, to the Clerk of the Committee, and
(vii) the Clerk of the Committee shall cause the redacted documents, provided by the Office of the Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel pursuant to subparagraph (vi), to be distributed to the members of the Committee and to be published on the Committee’s website forthwith upon receipt;
(j) order the production, within three weeks, of the annex to Special Rapporteur David Johnston’s First Report, together with all documents reviewed by him in preparing his First Report, provided that
(i) the documents shall be deposited without redaction, in both official languages, with the Office of the Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel
(ii) the Office of the Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel shall promptly notify the Committee whether the Office is satisfied that the documents were produced as ordered, and, if not, the Chair shall be instructed to present forthwith, on behalf of the Committee, a report to the House outlining the material facts of the situation
(iii) the documents shall be available for viewing by Committee members, under the supervision of the Office of the Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel, between the day of their deposit and the day prior to the meeting referred to in subparagraph (iv),
(iv) the Committee shall meet in camera, for at least two hours, no fewer than 14 days after the documents have been deposited, but no later than Friday, September 8, 2023, with relevant government officials, to discuss the documents,
(v) at the meeting referred to in subparagraph (iv),
(A) only Committee members, support staff required for the meeting, the witnesses, and representatives of the Office of the Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel be permitted to attend, and
(B) the Clerk of the Committee shall provide numbered paper copies of the documents, at the beginning of the meeting, to Committee members who are present in person, which shall be returned to the Clerk at the end of the meeting, and the Clerk shall destroy the numbered paper copies after the meeting, and
(vi) during the viewing referred to in subparagraph (iii) and at the meeting referred to in subparagraph (iv), no personal mobile, electronic or recording devices of any kind shall be permitted in the room, and no notes may be removed from the room; and
(k) order the production, within three weeks, of all records concerning the expenditures incurred, or committed to, by the Special Rapporteur, pursuant to paragraph 4(g) of the Schedule to Order in Council 2023-0324, including contracts with Torys LLP, Navigator Ltd. and RKESTRA, provided that
(i) the documents shall be deposited without redaction, in both official languages, with the Clerk of the Committee,
(ii) the documents shall be distributed to the members of the Committee and published on the Committee's website forthwith upon receipt, and
(iii) the Clerk of the Committee shall promptly notify the Committee whether he is satisfied that the documents were produced as ordered, and, if not, the Chair shall be instructed to present forthwith, on behalf of the Committee, a report to the House outlining the material facts of the situation.
Now, Madam Chair, that I have read into the record the motion that I am bringing forward, I wish to make a few brief comments about the substance of that motion.
Since the start of this study, we have heard from ministers and officials of this government and from the rapporteur. Taken together, their testimony has resulted in far more questions than answers.
We have a former minister of public safety who is now the give evidence to this committee that was outright contradicted by the director of CSIS. We have a current who was unable to answer the most basic questions, including what happened to the issues management note that reached the public safety ministry and that warned that was being targeted by the Beijing regime. That minister couldn't even answer whether he had instructed his departmental officials to find out what happened to that IMU.
We have a government, led by a Prime Minister, of ministers who are never responsible, who are always conveniently never briefed and who always cast blame on others, whether it be CSIS or public servants. We have a rapporteur, the Prime Minister's long-standing family friend, who was unable to defend key conclusions in his report and appears to have not been given complete information by this government.
It was very interesting that we heard today from Mr. Cooper, formerly of Global News, who noted that an NSICOP report in 2019 raised concerns about PCO withholding certain documents from NSICOP. It certainly raises questions about the transparency of PCO and this government.
We have a rapporteur who is tainted by conflict layered on top of conflict, undermining his independence and the credibility of his findings. This is a rapporteur who has, for decades, known the Prime Minister; who was a member, up until his appointment as the Prime Minister's rapporteur, of the Beijing-funded and Beijing-compromised Trudeau Foundation; who hired as his chief counsel, a major Liberal donor to help write his supposedly independent report; a rapporteur who hired a recent former Liberal ministerial staffer to be his spokesperson.
Moreover, we learned most recently that this rapporteur hired the same crisis management communications firm that was advising a member of Parliament whom he was tasked with investigating. Imagine that—a rapporteur hiring a crisis communications firm. That, I think, speaks to the utter mess surrounding his appointment.
In the face of all of that, what is needed very clearly is a public inquiry. Canadians deserve one, and Parliament has called for one three times, and three times this and Liberal MPs across the way have thumbed their nose at the will of Parliament and continue to do so. Some of them were just nodding now. All that the Prime Minister has offered is a fake rapporteur, a family friend, to buy time and to issue a report that the rapporteur couldn't defend and then didn't understand. It amounted to a whitewash of the Prime Minister's record of turning a blind eye to Beijing's attacks on our democracy in two federal elections under his watch and the targeting of sitting members of Parliament in an attempt to impede their ability to do their jobs, to speak on behalf of their constituents and to vote freely in the House of Commons without their and their families' being targeted and threatened by the Beijing regime. That's not to mention a Prime Minister who has repeatedly turned a blind eye to Beijing's diplomats and upper officials targeting the Chinese-Canadian diaspora, and turning a blind eye to intelligence reports that warned him of the activities of Zhao Wei, thereby allowing that diplomat to freely target and intimidate Chinese Canadians for two years. Only when The Globe and Mail blew the whistle did the Prime Minister finally act and, after considerable pressure, send one diplomat packing.
That's not thanks to anything this did, or, for that matter, the did, who, when she came to this committee, claimed that she had no information about any such activities, which was patently false.
At the end of the day, until the calls for a public inquiry, this committee is the only public forum where these issues can be studied to get to the bottom of Beijing's interference and to get the answers that Canadians deserve. That is what this motion provides for. It provides for the calling of key witnesses to committee, for production of relevant documents, and for the continuation of hearings over the summer, because very simply this matter is so pressing that we cannot afford to shut hearings down for two and a half months. We need to continue to do our work, and that's a very key element of this motion. I am hopeful that members on all sides recognize the importance of producing relevant documents, calling key witnesses and allowing this committee to continue to do its work over the summer. I hope it will receive the support of the members of this committee.
Thank you, Madam Chair.
:
Thank you very much, Madam Chair.
I have a number of things to say. First, I want to thank my colleague Michael Cooper for working with his team on a motion to enable us to get to the bottom of things and to act on the request that the House of Commons has submitted to us to consider Michael Chong's question of privilege. It's important to recall certain parts of that motion in French, Madam Chair, to be certain that the people watching us, as Ms. Gaudreau said, know where we stand in our investigation into foreign interference.
However, first I would like to recall a few facts regarding the special rapporteur, who resigned after all the opposition parties called for his resignation in the House of Commons. Some witnesses strongly challenged some of the findings in his report. He was unable to convince Canadians that the government was doing everything in its power to prevent the interference by the Beijing regime in the next election, which will be held we do not know when. It's important to remember as well that, since we have a minority government, an election could be called at any moment.
Point (a) of my colleague's motion is very important. It requests that we expand the scope of the study we're conducting on the intimidation campaign being conducted against Michael Chong and other MPs, and in particular to include the situation raised in the House of Commons by the Hon. Erin O'Toole on Tuesday, May 30. We can't overlook that because Mr. O'Toole was one of the first members to be briefed directly by CSIS on what had happened to him. He is the first MP to have received a full briefing.
Here in the committee, we’ve heard the comments of experts from CSIS and other national security experts. They explained to us what kind of information was circulating at CSIS. There was raw intelligence, more detailed intelligence and analyzed intelligence. What we understood from Mr. O'Toole's testimony is that he had unrestricted access to all the information. He subsequently took great care in the House of Commons to provide a summary of the information that he had received, voluntarily withholding certain information that he thought might have undermined national security and the protection of the members of the House of Commons. He therefore acted appropriately in so doing. His speech was acknowledged by many analysts, and I must tell you that Mr. O'Toole has a lot to tell the committee.
We can't continue this study without hearing from Mr. O'Toole for at least two hours, particularly since the Speaker of the House, pursuant to the question of privilege raised by Mr. O'Toole concerning the fact that he had been targeted by the Beijing regime, included the questions raised by Mr. O'Toole in the study we're conducting. The same is true of NDP member Ms. Kwan. She didn't want to make this a question of privilege, but she would've had the right to do so. The Speaker would likely have referred her question of privilege to the committee as well.
Madame Chair, it is essential that the committee officially expand the scope of its study to include the matters raised in the House by the Hon. Erin O'Toole on Tuesday, May 30. That testimony, incidentally, was cited at length by Mr. Cooper in his testimony today.
Mr. O'Toole's testimony will provide many answers to our questions, and it's extremely important that the committee note that fact.
Second, it is requested that the committee continue holding meetings over the summer period. Why? Because foreign agents don't take vacations. They will continue to adapt and change their methods until Canada has passed stronger legislation to prevent the Beijing regime from intervening in our elections.
How can we explain to Canadians that we want to take a break when those watching us expect us to shed light on Beijing's interference in our democratic system, in our 2019 in 2021 elections, and likely in future elections. We could tell them we're going to take a two-month break, stop asking anybody any questions, happily stay at home and wait for it all to blow over, but that won't get the job done. That won't happen until we can shed light on the situation and the Prime Minister decides to open an independent public inquiry.
Right now, our committee is the only public space where people can come and testify to what they know about the Beijing regime's interference in our elections. Nowhere else can people do that. The two committees that deal with national security, the names of which have been abundantly cited since the committee started this study, are holding their meetings in private, in camera. If it weren't for the revelations made by journalists and this committee, which has made it possible for the testimony of witnesses to be heard and to shed light on the situation, we wouldn't know what's happening or how to move forward.
Without this committee and without journalists, a diplomat who intimidated an MP wouldn't have been expelled. The Beijing regime's police stations established and operating on Canadian soil probably wouldn't have been shut down or disrupted. This situation isn't absolutely clear, however. Some police stations are still open, but no Beijing police activities are under way. It's not clear. This is one of those situations that absolutely must be investigated further. Without this committee, there would have been no special rapporteur, but one was appointed because the Prime Minister wanted the situation to remain concealed for as long as possible. We wonder why. Why make every effort to prevent Canadians from learning the whole truth about foreign interference in our elections?
These meetings would be held from July 4 to September 8, and it is requested that there be at least eight of them. The idea isn't to hold meetings all summer. Canadians won't criticize us if we hold eight committee meetings over the summer to continue hearing testimony on foreign interference. Some important persons would be among the witnesses. I've obviously mentioned the Hon. Erin O'Toole, but we'll have to hear once again from Dominic LeBlanc, whom the Prime Minister made responsible for establishing a process for next steps in view of the resignation of the special rapporteur, who wasn't that independent. That may lead to an independent public inquiry, but we don't exactly know when that will happen.
Incidentally, I would note that the leader of the official opposition reminded the government today that we're prepared to discuss the mandate of that inquiry and to assist in appointing a commissioner. The one basic step that must be taken is for the Prime Minister to clearly announce that an independent public inquiry is being held. After that, the opposition will move quickly to propose a mandate and names of potential commissioners. Then we can move forward and truly begin getting to the bottom of things.
That's all we're asking. The idea here isn't to give Mr. LeBlanc a mandate to come up with a process that may perhaps, eventually, lead to an independent public inquiry if the Prime Minister doesn't think it's too damaging for him. We have to remove politics from the entire process. The official opposition is prepared to do that. We're ready to cooperate. We want to go to work on developing the mandate of an independent public inquiry.
We want to help and support the eventual commissioner who will have to shed light on the entire situation. However, before submitting names, ideas for mandates and examples of what we could do, we want the Prime Minister to commit clearly and firmly to holding an independent public inquiry.
That's why we have to hear from Mr. LeBlanc, but he's slow in answering us. We don't know where he's headed. We want Mr. LeBlanc to come and tell us exactly what he has in mind and why no independent public inquiry has yet been announced. What's he so anxious to hide?
Many people whose names are on the list of people we want to see appear before the committee so we can find out what happened to CSIS's memoranda have been mentioned either by the witnesses or in the newspaper articles.
We've learned that there are several types of notes. Some are used to transmit information and others state that they must absolutely be sent to ministers. I believe those are internal management memos. I don't exactly remember what they're called.
We're learning a lot about intelligence and national security, but it's always superficial information. These memos are expressly designed to draw the attention of cabinet members, officials and ministers.
Two, three, five or six of those memos are sent every week at most. There aren't thousands of them. But how did they get lost down black holes?
How is it that no one in the Office of the Prime Minister or the office of the Minister of Public Safety was alerted by those memos?
There's also the secure email system that Mr. Johnston talked about, which none of the witnesses who work in the national security field seem to be aware of, judging by the way the special rapporteur describes it, the way Mr. Blair understands it and the way it's presented by the CSIS people.
So it's important that we hear testimony from these people from the Department of Foreign Affairs, the national security advisors, the deputy ministers who were in those positions at Public Safety at the time and deputy secretaries to the cabinet, primarily Zita Astravas, chief of staff of the President of the King's Privy Council for Canada and Minister of Emergency Preparedness, who appears to have played a role in this entire process.
It's important that we not wait until the fall to hear from these people. We have to do it as soon as possible. I think the public expects that.
We've also learned that, although the special rapporteur says he wrote his report himself, he was actually assisted by consulting firms, particularly in questioning witnesses. We have noted that a large part of the report must have been written by outside consultants because, when the special rapporteur testified before us, he often seemed not to understand his own words when he consulted his report.
To my great disappointment, the representatives of those firms that unfortunately assisted in drafting the special rapporteur's report, may have been more numerous than we thought. So we need to know what they told and advised the special rapporteur regarding the drafting of his report.
We also need to hear from the representatives of the firm that represented one of the individuals targeted by the investigation of the special rapporteur. We also need to hear from Don Guy and Brian Topp, the founding partners of GT&co, and other volunteer advisors, it would appear. We'll see if the motion that we introduced for the production of documents can make its way through the process.
Following all these revelations, we've learned that CSIS apparently provided the Department of Foreign Affairs with a list of names of diplomats that it could consider expelling because they were apparently Beijing regime diplomats who were still conducting foreign interference activities in Canada.
We know that the department has a list, but we don't know what it has done with it or what the minister did with it. We are very proud to say that we've expelled a diplomat, but it took months to do it. The revelations had to be published in the newspapers and the committee had to conduct studies. What happened to that list? What does the Minister of Foreign Affairs know about it? It's important that she testify before the committee again. She was silent about the list the first time she testified. Did she have it or not at the time of her testimony? I think it's important that you provide the committee with an explanation.
I think it would obviously be worthwhile to re-invite Cong Peiwu, ambassador of the People's Republic of China, to testify for two hours. If he's open to the idea of coming and candidly answering questions from committee members, I'm certain the members of all parties will have good questions for him. We would like the meeting to be two hours long, the minimum length that the committee must schedule for such a meeting.
In addition, the testimony of Sheila Block, legal advisor to the special rapporteur, and Valérie Gervais, communications officer, is essential for the committee to understand the process that the government has put in place since all these revelations were made.
Why did the special rapporteur, who stuck to his report, who stood by it and who said he would stay on in his position until the end—I remember that his comments on that were quite clear—ultimately decide to resign? He said he was resigning, but he's still in the position. He wants to resign, but not right away. He resigned, but he wants to write a report.
How much credibility can we assign to that report if the special rapporteur isn't credible in the eyes of the House of Commons, the opposition parties and Canadians? All that does is give $1,200 to $1,700 a day to a special rapporteur so he can continue drafting a report containing findings that no one wants to read.
Mr. Blair must come and explain to us his department's various accounts regarding the memo that was transmitted. That memo, which was drafted by CSIS, was for the minister's eyes only, but he didn't see it. Was it wilful blindness on the part of the minister or his office? I don't know, but I think it's important to find out.
Consequently, it's important that we meet this summer to hear the testimony of all these witnesses.
I also have much to say about the information that has not been made available to the committee since the start of our study. I'm referring to the documents.
A motion has been introduced, but debate thereon was adjourned. The motion sought the production of documents. Those documents will be essential in giving the committee a clear view of the Beijing regime's interference in Canadian elections. Unfortunately, every request we make for documents is met with resistance. I don't know why the Liberal Party and the NDP are reluctant to allow the committee to examine certain documents, even though it's done under the supervision of the law clerk of the House of Commons, who informed the committee that he was authorized to see documents of that nature which would be provided to him should the motion be adopted.
These reports are important, and the committee must be able to form its own idea of them. Today, my Liberal Party colleagues doubted the veracity of the articles published by Samuel Cooper based on those documents. A portion of the documents was released after we filed an initial request for production of documents, but they were extensively redacted. All things considered, however, they appear to be consistent with reality in most instances. A diplomat was expelled following those revelations; that's not nothing. Those documents contain important information, and that information must be transmitted to us.
As you've seen, my colleague Michael Cooper was very cautious with the motion. He made sure that intelligence that, if disclosed, could undermine national security and our relations with our allies, that is to say, the other countries of the Group of Five, or any other information of a sensitive nature that might come from other countries, was protected to preserve the relationship of trust that we have with those countries in the area of intelligence gathering.
I think the motion is very well drafted. It explains the procedure for us parliamentarians and Canadians to access information that may be made public. At the same time, we must also have access to information that must not be made public but that could be seen by MPs and members of this committee. It very clearly describes the process of a meeting in which documents could be printed for MPs in a cell phone-free room, in camera, accompanied solely by the personnel required. It would not be possible to annotate the documents, and they would subsequently have to be returned to the clerk to ensure confidentiality. All other documents that, if disclosed, could jeopardize national security will be redacted. Information that we do not need to know for the purposes of our study would not be transmitted or provided to MPs.
That's the reality. That's the beauty of the motion introduced by my colleague. It's why we were very cautious. I think this motion for the production of documents should be supported by all parties because we've listened to what the law clerk of the House told us when he came here to explain how we would have to proceed so that he could see the documents. Based on that, we drafted a motion that I'm sure will address all the concerns that committee members may have about the importance of protecting secrets. That's why we have access to the information, Madam Chair.
I want to say one thing in conclusion. The Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs has a very important role to play. We offer a path. We offer a way to carry out our mandate to avoid having to hold committee meetings throughout the summer and to avoid having to hold them in accordance with Standing Order 106(4), Madam Chair. We don't want that. We want clear and precise planning.
My time is up, Madam Chair.