SRSR Committee Meeting
Notices of Meeting include information about the subject matter to be examined by the committee and date, time and place of the meeting, as well as a list of any witnesses scheduled to appear. The Evidence is the edited and revised transcript of what is said before a committee. The Minutes of Proceedings are the official record of the business conducted by the committee at a sitting.
For an advanced search, use Publication Search tool.
If you have any questions or comments regarding the accessibility of this publication, please contact us at accessible@parl.gc.ca.
Standing Committee on Science and Research
|
l |
|
l |
|
EVIDENCE
Tuesday, December 14, 2021
[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]
[English]
I see a quorum.
Honourable members of the committee, I must inform the members that the clerk of the committee can only receive motions for the election of the chair. I may not receive other types of motions, nor entertain points of order, nor participate in any debate.
We may now proceed to the election of the chair. Pursuant to Standing Order 106(2), the chair must be a member of the government party. I'm ready to receive motions for the chair.
I see Mr. McKinnon.
It is moved by Mr. McKinnon that the Honourable Kirsty Duncan be elected as chair of the committee.
Are there other nominations?
Seeing none, I declare Ms. Duncan duly elected chair of the committee.
Some hon. members: Hear, hear!
Thank you, dear colleagues.
[Translation]
Thank you for placing your trust in me. I will work hard to live up to your expectations.
[English]
Dear colleagues, let me begin by saying congratulations to those who are re-elected, and give a special welcome to those who are newly elected to the Hill.
Just before we go to the vice-chair elections, I'd like to say that this is a historic moment. You are the inaugural members of the science and research standing committee. Congratulations. Thank you for the interest.
Very briefly, I put forward a motion last Parliament to form a science and research committee and to give permanence and a seat at the table in Ottawa. It was really exciting. We had all-party support for that. I think we have a real opportunity to shine a light on science and research. These are fundamental building blocks of our country. I think we can explore the opportunities and the challenges.
Colleagues, our next point of business is to elect two vice-chairs.
I will pass this to our clerk, please.
Thank you.
Pursuant to Standing Order 106(2), the first vice-chair must be a member of the official opposition. I'm now prepared to receive motions for the first vice-chair.
I see Mr. Lake.
It's moved by Mr. Lake that Mr. Tochor be elected as first vice-chair of the committee.
Are there other motions?
Seeing none, I declare Mr. Tochor duly elected as the committee's first vice-chair.
Pursuant to Standing Order 106(2), the second vice-chair must be a member of an opposition party other than the official opposition. I'm now prepared to receive motions for the second vice-chair.
Ms. Diab, go ahead.
[Translation]
It has been moved by Ms. Metlege Diab that Mr. Blanchette‑Joncas be elected as second vice-chair of the committee.
Are there any other nominations?
[English]
Seeing none, I declare Mr. Blanchette-Joncas duly elected as second vice-chair.
I just wanted to make sure that the clerk checked the “raise hand” on the computer. I had my hand raised to propose and he didn't see me, so we had somebody else in the room do it.
[Translation]
[English]
Okay. In this process, it's very important.
[Translation]
I was actually going to nominate Mr. Blanchette‑Joncas, but I think it's all sorted out now, given that he was elected.
[English]
Thank you.
I congratulate our new vice-chairs.
Some hon. members: Hear, hear!
The Chair: Colleagues, our next point of business is to go through a set of routine motions that committees customarily adopt as they start their work.
I'll hand this over to Mr. McKinnon, who will read the first motion.
Thank you, Madam Chair.
The first routine motion concerns analyst services. I move:
That the committee retain, as needed and at the discretion of the Chair, the services of one or more analysts from the Library of Parliament to assist it in its work.
Colleagues, the motion is before you. Is there any discussion on the motion?
Seeing none, we've approved the motion.
Can we go to the second motion, Mr. McKinnon?
Do we have unanimous consent for the motion?
(Motion agreed to)
The Chair: Thank you, Mr. McKinnon.
Can we invite the analyst to the front, please?
I think we should hear from both the clerk and the analyst briefly before we go to the second motion.
Welcome. Would you like to introduce yourselves?
Dear committee members, my name is Thai Nguyen. I've been an analyst on the Hill since 2012, working mostly with the House fisheries committee, but also at times supporting the Senate committee too.
I'm looking forward to working with all of you.
Thank you so much for joining us. We thank you for the work.
Mr. Clerk, would you like to introduce yourself to the committee, please?
Yes. Thank you.
My name is Leif Aune. It's a pleasure for me to be the clerk of your committee. I've been a procedural clerk since 2005 and have served some of you on various committees in the past. I'm looking forward to working with you this session.
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you so much to both of you. We thank you in advance for the work you'll do.
I'd also like to say thank you to the interpreters, to all the technology folks and to everyone who is supporting this committee.
We had unanimous consent for the first motion.
Mr. McKinnon, can we go back to you, please?
On a point of order, Madam Chair, can we maybe read all of the motions together as one and then just vote on them together? Would there be consent for that?
Thank you, Mr. Lake, for suggesting that.
Dear colleagues, is there unanimous consent to do that?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Before I continue, I expect you all have copies of these. I just note there's a typo in the heading. It says 43rd Parliament, second session. It's incorrect.
We'll carry on with the routine motions.
This is the motion on the subcommittee on agenda and procedure. I move:
That the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be established and be composed of five members; the Chair, one member from each recognized party; and that the subcommittee work in a spirit of collaboration.
On meeting without a quorum, I move:
That the Chair be authorized to hold meetings to receive evidence and to have that evidence published when a quorum is not present, provided that at least four members are present, including two members of the opposition parties and two members of the government party, but when travelling outside the Parliamentary Precinct, that the meeting begin after 15 minutes, regardless of members present.
On time for opening remarks and questioning of witnesses, I move:
That witnesses be given five minutes for their opening statement; that whenever possible, witnesses provide the committee with their opening statement 72 hours in advance; that at the discretion of the Chair, during the questioning of witnesses, there be allocated six minutes for the first questioner of each party as follows for the first round: Conservative Party, Liberal Party, Bloc Québécois, New Democratic Party. For the second and subsequent rounds, the order and time for questioning be as follows: Conservative Party, five minutes; Liberal Party, five minutes; Bloc Québécois, two and a half minutes; New Democratic Party, two and a half minutes; Conservative Party, five minutes; Liberal Party, five minutes.
On document distribution, I move:
That only the clerk of the committee be authorized to distribute documents to members of the committee provided the documents are in both official languages; and that the witnesses be advised accordingly.
On working meals, I move:
That the clerk of the committee, at the discretion of the Chair, be authorized to make the necessary arrangements to provide working meals for the committee and its subcommittees.
On travel accommodation and living expenses of witnesses, I move:
That, if requested, reasonable travel, accommodation and living expenses be reimbursed to witnesses not exceeding two representatives per organization; and that in exceptional circumstances, payment for more representatives be made at the discretion of the Chair.
On access to in camera meetings, I move:
That, unless otherwise ordered, each committee member be allowed to be accompanied by one staff member at in camera meetings and that one additional person from each House officer’s office be allowed to be present.
On transcripts of in camera meetings, I move:
That one copy of the transcript of each in camera meeting be kept in the committee clerk's office for consultation by members of the committee or by their staff; and that the analysts assigned to the committee also have access to the in camera transcripts.
On notice of motion, I move:
That a 48-hour notice, interpreted as two nights, be required for any substantive motion to be moved in committee, unless the substantive motion relates directly to business then under consideration, provided that: (a) the notice be filed with the clerk of the committee no later than 4:00 p.m. from Monday to Friday; (b) the motion be distributed to Members and the offices of the whips of each recognized party in both official languages by the clerk on the same day the said notice was transmitted if it was received no later than the deadline hour; (c) notices received after the deadline hour or on non-business days be deemed to have been received during the next business day; and that when the committee is holding meetings outside the Parliamentary Precinct, no substantive motion may be moved.
On orders of reference from the House respecting bills, I move:
That in relation to orders of reference from the House respecting Bills,
(a) The clerk of the committee shall, upon the committee receiving such an order of reference, write to each member who is not a member of a caucus represented on the committee to invite those members to file with the clerk of the committee, in both official languages, any amendments to the bill, which is the subject of the said Order, which they would suggest that the committee consider;
(b) Suggested amendments filed, pursuant to paragraph (a), at least 48 hours prior to the start of clause-by-clause consideration of the bill to which the amendments relate shall be deemed to be proposed during the said consideration, provided that the committee may, by motion, vary this deadline in respect of a given bill; and
(c) During the clause-by-clause consideration of a bill, the Chair shall allow a member who filed suggested amendments, pursuant to paragraph (a), an opportunity to make brief representations in support of them.
Regarding technical tests for witnesses, I move:
That the clerk inform each witness who is to appear before the committee that the House administration support team must conduct technical tests to check the connectivity and the equipment used to ensure the best possible sound quality; and that the Chair advise the committee, at the start of each meeting, of any witness who did not perform the required technical tests.
Lastly, on linguistic review, I move:
That all documents submitted for committee business that do not come from a federal department, members' offices, or that have not been translated by the Translation Bureau be sent for prior linguistic review by the Translation Bureau before being distributed to members.
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Mr. McKinnon.
Is there any discussion on any of the motions?
Seeing no discussion, can we put this to a vote or is there unanimous consent?
(Motions agreed to)
The Chair: Thank you, colleagues.
Mr. McKinnon, go ahead.
Thank you, Madam Chair.
I'm just wondering if the clerk could clarify the masking policy for us in the room here.
Thank you, Mr. McKinnon.
Thank you, colleagues. I will give you the masking policy.
Welcome to the first meeting of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Science and Research.
The Board of Internal Economy requires that committees adhere to the following health protocols: maintain a physical distance of at least two metres from others; wear a non-medical mask unless seated, and properly wear a mask at all times, including when seated; maintain proper hand hygiene by using the hand sanitizer provided in the committee room and regularly washing your hands well with soap. As the chair, I will enforce these measures, and I thank you for your co-operation.
Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format. As you know, interpretation services are available for this meeting. You may speak in the official language of your choice. At the bottom of your screen, you may choose to hear floor audio, English or French. The “raise hand” feature is on the main toolbar should you wish to speak.
I will remind you that all remarks should be addressed to the chair. When you are not speaking, your microphone should be muted. The committee clerk and I will maintain a speaking list for all members.
Thank you, Mr. McKinnon.
Dear colleagues, I believe there's unanimous agreement for all the motions and they were passed.
We have started this committee. Many congratulations to you all. We are up and running. Thank you very much.
We are now officially constituted. We have some time left if you want to discuss anything, and I will open it up to all of you.
Mr. McKinnon, go ahead.
Thank you, Madam Chair, and congratulations on your election. No election signs were needed.
I think now that we have some time available, it would be nice to go around the room and find out what the expectations are for this committee going forward.
I know for myself, I would love for us to be able to investigate the state of the art in different areas of science, such as fusion technology, quantum computing, stem cell technology and it goes on and on. It would also be good to get a survey of where we need to put our scientific expertise in this country so that eventually we can make some recommendations to Parliament on how to proceed.
That would be my input at this point.
[Translation]
Thank you.
[English]
Congratulations, Madam Chair.
[Translation]
We are extremely privileged to sit on a new committee dedicated to research and development and high technology. My vision is to bring cutting-edge technologies to rural areas, advancements such as telecommunications R and D and technology, 5G infrastructure, intelligent transportation systems and the electrification of transportation. All of the research on green hydrogen also comes to mind in regard to the industry.
I plan to work hard on this committee to identify linkages between those elements and rural communities, so that they can fully benefit from our discussions. Moreover, I will be supporting any and all recommendations aimed at advancing robotics, the electrification of plants, methanization and cogeneration plants. I've worked in the field, so I hope we can make progress on those issues through our studies.
[English]
I'm sorry. I was just confused about the term “go around the table”.
I have a background in science, so I'm excited to be here. I think we should be aware that this is the science and research committee. It would be fun to go off in all directions. I formerly sat, for the last six years, on the natural resources committee, so we did a lot of studies around energy and things like that.
I would like us to concentrate more on fundamental and applied sciences and how Canada can excel in those areas. I think it would be great to start off with a broad study to teach us all about where Canada does well. There are areas like fusion technology and hydrogen where we are world leaders. I think we could have a study that would look at those successes, but also look at the challenges where science could use some help from the government.
I would like to start off with a broader study like that. When I sat on natural resources, starting in 2015, we started out with a big study on everything. It was oil, gas, mining, forestry and nuclear. When we first started this, I thought it was crazy and that we should be studying more focused things. After it was done, I thought, wow, it was so important for me, and I think for everybody on the committee, to really get a grounding.
We're in a brand new committee. I think it would be really helpful for us, and our duty, to start off with a broader study like that, to look at where Canada is doing well and how we can move that forward, but also to see where science and research need some help in Canada, where the challenges are.
That's what I would say.
Thank you for your expertise, Mr. Cannings, and for sharing your experience.
I will put this to the committee. Are we going to Ms. Diab, or are we going around the table?
I want to make sure you all feel heard.
An hon. member: Go with whoever puts up their hand.
The Chair: Okay.
Ms. Diab, we'll go to you, and then we'll go to Monsieur Blanchette-Joncas.
[Translation]
Thank you, Madam Chair.
I am very proud to be on this history-making committee.
[English]
Look, we've waited since 1867 to have this committee, so it's okay. I don't mind waiting a few more minutes for my turn.
I'm excited to be here. I'm very much looking forward to having constructive, collaborative discussions in this committee. I really do think we need to shine the light on our strong research sector. We need to help tell the story in our communities, in our own backyards and in our own provinces, and to the media and everybody, about the hard-working scientists and about the research going on across the country, which most people have no idea about.
I'll tell you that I was involved in provincial politics before coming to this table. I was a cabinet minister for eight years in Nova Scotia. Part of the stint was advanced education and labour, just before coming here, as well as immigration and so on.
I'll give you one example. I brought the Brain Repair Centre at Dalhousie University to meet my deputy minister and some of my higher education staff. The research that is going on at that facility is recognized internationally. The unfortunate part is that most people don't know what's happening in the country. The centre has no time and no skills to even promote it and communicate it and let people know what's happening. My heart was just.... I couldn't believe it, but it's true.
Two of my four children have a Ph.D. One is a neuropharmacologist. He is a scientist. My daughter is a chemical engineer. Through their lens, I have seen the enormous work that goes on in these sectors. Obviously, there are so many sectors, but there is enormous talent out there among the youth. It's not something I experienced when I was their age. This is also a story that most people have no idea about.
I hope this committee can shine a light on the good things that are happening across our regions in this country. That would be my motivation for being here in this committee. I'm very much open. Mount Saint Vincent University, a university in my own riding, is doing extremely important things in early childhood education, and in aging. It's just enormous stuff.
So that would be what I think we could collaborate on, and we could come up with how to build on that.
Thank you so much, Ms. Diab. What I'm excited about is that I can hear your excitement and passion for this. I thank you for that.
Ms. Bradford, would you like to give your thoughts?
[Translation]
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Allow me to start by congratulating you on your election.
It's an honour to take part in the creation of the Standing Committee on Science and Research. It may have taken the pandemic to make us realize just how necessary this committee is. Nevertheless, I am very proud to sit on it.
Some members expressed their desire to have the committee get an understanding of the big picture, but I think we already have that understanding, in part thanks to you, Madam Chair.
We had the Naylor report, and a number of recommendations that have gone unheeded since 2017. Massive reinvestment is needed, particularly in basic research. Unfortunately, Canada is the only country in the G7 to have reduced its R and D spending between 2000 and 2019. Unfortunately, Canada was also the only G7 country that did not produce a COVID‑19 vaccine. What's more, Canada was the only G7 country that took part in the COVAX program, receiving vaccines that were intended for the world's poorest countries.
I think we have a long way to go, but I remain optimistic. We already have a good overview of the situation. All we have to do is demonstrate our commitment to finding solutions to all of the problems that have already been identified in recent years.
I've listed a few issues that I feel cannot be ignored. Canada and Quebec have tremendous expertise and carry out considerable scientific research on the world stage. However, this pandemic we are living in has brought to the fore the urgent need for action. We mustn't wait long before really tackling the situation, because that situation is critical.
I've met people in the scientific community who've told me that they have often had basic research projects turned down owing to a lack of funding. I do want to say that the government has made a significant contribution in recent years as far as reinvestment is concerned, but it has not been enough to fill the widening gap. Personally, I find this troubling, as do many in the science and research sector with whom I have spoken.
I find something else troubling, and it, too, is based on facts. I'm talking about the research criteria developed by the government for the awarding of grants to research chairs. I'll be putting forward a motion on that topic a bit later. Criteria pertaining to identity, equity, diversity and inclusion are now mandatory for the research chairs.
Unfortunately, skilled scientists who should have obtained funding were not able to get it, not because of a lack of expertise, but because they did not satisfy certain criteria—criteria that are onerous for many scientists. That really worries me. These are skilled and talented people. The repercussions of these criteria on scientific development, progress, discovery and research need to be examined. These much-talked-about criteria are one of the topics I want to dig into.
Money is, of course, crucial, so we need to determine whether funding as a whole is commensurate with the potential and talent that exist in Canada.
These are issues that I care about and that concern me. I hope that we'll be able to study them in our upcoming meetings and that we'll be able to get down to business quickly.
Thank you.
[English]
Thank you so much, Mr. Blanchette-Joncas.
Is there anyone else who would like to speak to this?
Mr. Lake, go ahead.
I have just a couple of thoughts to add.
It's the first time that we've sat as a committee. In my experience—and I've been around for a long time here—the regular committees get bogged down oftentimes in other things and don't have enough time to do substantive studies based on evidence. If we've learned anything over the last couple of years, it's that we're in a world where information is everywhere. There's a lack of clarity around what information is actually evidence-based and what isn't. We have an opportunity to shine a light on that.
If you take a look at the last couple of years, the sad thing is that our committees haven't been functioning for much of the last couple of years. If you take a look at this last stretch, by the time we sit meaningfully as a committee, it will have been eight months since most committees actually sat. In the middle of a global pandemic, our Parliament was shut down. Then we went to an election. We were delayed coming back. We hit the Christmas break, and it will be from June to February before we actually sit to study things.
We have an opportunity as a committee to take a look, certainly, at broad-based issues. I think there is going to be an importance to studying those things. I also think we have to take a look at the issues that are front and centre in our country at any given moment and aren't getting the spotlight shone on them. In the health ministry, for example, there are many issues competing for the health committee's time. Because we probably won't be as busy with legislation as other committees may be, we have the opportunity to take those big issues and give a really good, hard look at them as a committee, sort of pick the biggest issues of the day as they come forward.
One thing we probably want to be careful about is going after issues that might be important to one of us individually at committee, in our own world, in our own constituency. We might want to take a look, in the general interest of Canadians, at putting a spotlight on the issues that affect our society broadly and that are under-researched.
We can use the one that's so obvious, right in front of us, the COVID response. One of the biggest challenges we have had in the country—we all just went through an election campaign where we were knocking on doors—is confusion and lack of clarity around what the evidence shows. I think we have an opportunity as a committee to tackle that and to pursue a conversation around that, if that's where we decide to go as a committee. We could invite some of the top experts in the world, many of whom are working right here in Canada, to have conversations. Some of those experts may not agree with each other 100%. We have the opportunity to bring them to the table together and have that discussion and ask questions as a committee. If we take our responsibilities seriously as a committee, we can, together, do great things for our country.
I'm really looking forward to the opportunity to do that.
The last thing I would say is that our researchers, if I've learned anything.... I'm not a researcher myself, but I've been around for a long time and I've worked with a lot of world-class researchers, particularly—as you would know, Kirsty—on the autism file with some of the top autism researchers in the country. Those researchers don't necessarily want to see us just arguing about money in the House of Commons. They want to see their research actually being used for meaningful action on behalf of the Canadians they are working with and the communities they're working with. We have an opportunity to do that.
Thank you, Mr. Lake. Thank you for recognizing the contributions, and that we have such an opportunity in this committee.
Is there anyone else who would like to weigh in?
Mr. Tochor, go ahead.
Thank you, Mike, for those astute comments about what we could be looking at as a committee.
I think there might even be a hope that this committee—and maybe that's naiveness—wouldn't become a partisan committee. Facts are facts, and they don't care what your political leanings are. I think there is a great potential here to do some really important work for the people of our great country.
Those are all the comments I will share today.
Thank you, Mr. Tochor, as always.
Is there anyone else who would like to weigh in?
Ms. Bradford, go ahead.
Thank you, Madam Chair, and congratulations on your election as chair of this committee.
It's such an honour to serve on this inaugural committee, a very special committee. I'm very pleased to be able to serve with such esteemed members from all parties. I think we can work together and accomplish a lot. I'm looking forward to what we can do.
Because I am new, I will give you a bit of background on where I come from. I represent Kitchener South—Hespeler, which is in the region of Waterloo. It's commonly referred to as the western end of the innovation corridor, which is anchored by Toronto at the other end. We have a lot of research capability in Waterloo. Probably many of you are familiar with the University of Waterloo.
I'll impinge a bit on Lloyd Longfield's area of Guelph as well. In an area of about 600,000 people, we have three esteemed universities. The University of Guelph is renowned for research in agriculture and food.
The University of Waterloo, which everyone thinks of for tech and math, is certainly renowned for that, but there's also a lot of expertise in robotics. I toured the university with the president fairly recently, within the last month—we have a new president—and they have a lot of research there.
In robotics, I see a lot of opportunity for the medical field. We all know that we have severe shortages of health care workers, and I think there's a lot of opportunity. They now have very friendly robots that aren't in cages in manufacturing plants anymore and can actually deliver a lot of health care services. That might be something that we have an opportunity in.
Also, there is sustainable aviation, and they're really looking at that. In a country as large as Canada, we do have to fly around—many of us even to get to our jobs here in Ottawa—but we need to make aviation more sustainable and environmentally friendly. I was happy to see that there is research going on in that area. Also, there's the Perimeter Institute, the quantum institute.
We might want to do a road trip to some of the various universities—I know that Chad has McMaster, and we also have the University of Alberta and the University of Calgary—to see what everyone is doing.
I agree with what Mr. Cannings said earlier. I think we need to do an overview at some point, perhaps, to see what the strengths of Canadian research are, what the gaps are and where we need to maybe pick up the pace, and to see what the opportunities are.
That's all I'll say now. I ramble too much, but I'm very excited about the work ahead of us and being part of this group and seeing what we can accomplish together.
Thank you so much, Ms. Bradford. Thank you for sharing a bit about your background and where you come from.
Is there anyone who has not spoken who would like to speak?
Okay, colleagues, is there anything you'd like to bring forward? We have about 45 minutes left.
A motion to adjourn may be in order.
We'll get into the topics and the study in the subcommittee, which I would propose would be beneficial, versus discussing any motions on the floor today.
Thank you, Mr. Tochor. I'll bring that to the group.
Mr. Tochor, can I clarify? Is the motion to adjourn?
Thank you.
Colleagues, there's a motion to adjourn. Do you want to discuss?
An hon. member: It's not debatable.
The Chair: It's not debatable. That's right. I'm sorry, folks. It takes a while to get back into the swing of things.
Dear colleagues, I wish you all a very merry Christmas, happy holidays and my best—
[Translation]
Madam Chair, I'd like to say something before we adopt the motion to adjourn.
I want to suggest something to my fellow members, so they can think it over between now and our next meeting. I think it would be helpful to have a briefing—
[English]
[Translation]
[English]
[Translation]
[English]
Publication Explorer
Publication Explorer