:
Good morning, everybody. I call this meeting to order.
This is meeting number 116 of the Standing Committee on Finance. It's for our pre-budget consultations in advance of the 2024 budget.
We are delighted to be here in Quebec City. Some of you may know that we are going across the country. We've done the Atlantic provinces and now we're moving our way through the country until the end of this week, when we will be in Vancouver. We're then going back to Ottawa to put our report together on pre-budget consultations.
We have received a record number of submissions. Over 850 briefs have come in to our portal, which is tremendous. It's amazing. It's great. It shows the interest and that everybody wants to say what we should be doing in budget 2024.
This committee is also a pioneering committee. Because there is so much interest, we have the opportunity for what is called an open mike. You can see the deputation, those who will be making a statement, behind the people at the table. At this open mike, each of the persons or organizations will have up to one minute to make a statement. I will ask the clerk, Alexandre Roger, to call out each of you as you come up to the mike and make your statement for one minute.
I'm delighted to be here with my colleagues from all different parties, as well as a whole team of technicians, interpreters and analysts, who will capture everything.
With that, we're going to get started.
Mr. Clerk, please go ahead.
:
Good morning, everyone.
My name is Thomas Le Page-Gouin, and I am the executive director of Camp le Manoir and the Centre écologique de Port‑au‑Saumon, which are located in the Charlevoix region. For some years now, I have also been president of the Association des camps du Québec, which represents all the camps in the province.
I would like to address two very important topics.
First of all, I want to discuss the Canada summer jobs program. This program is vitally important for the survival of organizations such as ours, as it affects most of the camps that are offered in Quebec.
We have observed a decline in available funding in recent years, since the special measures were introduced during the COVID‑19 pandemic. That decline has hit organizations like ours extremely hard. It's not that it has become harder for young people to find jobs. On the contrary, I think they now have more choices. However, it is virtually impossible for them to function without the financial assistance provided through the Canada summer jobs program. And that's not counting the quality of the experience that we enable young people to acquire. I believe that these jobs are extremely rewarding and formative for young people.
The second topic I want to address is infrastructure. Our sites are very old. Most were built in the 1960s. There are many programs designed to develop new facilities, but virtually none intended to renovate existing infrastructure or to maintain it in good condition. This is a problem.
Consequently, we need programs designed specifically to improve the quality of infrastructure that we already have, instead of letting it deteriorate and having to shut down camps.
Those are the major issues for our industry that we would like to bring to your attention.
Thank you.
My name is Joany Boily Renaud, and I represent Les services de main-d'œuvre l'Appui, which works with immigrants.
Today I would like to talk to you about two issues that we experience with our clientele every day.
The first issue is the time it takes to process immigration files.
People waiting to be granted status live under considerable stress. I'm thinking, in particular, of parents of young children who don't know what their future holds. People who are waiting for permanent residence or who want to extend their work permit so they can remain in Canada unfortunately face very long delays in the processing of their files, which cause them considerable stress.
The other issue I want to discuss with you concerns the resources of community organizations that work with immigrants and, more specifically, with vulnerable workers.
In some instances, the closed work permits system requires temporary foreign workers to stay with an employer who forces them to live in a toxic environment. Fortunately, they can request an open work permit in those circumstances. However, the support these workers receive to complete the paperwork associated with the open work permit application is inadequate, even virtually nonexistent. In some instances, they have to wait two or three weeks to get that assistance. These workers are distressed, living in toxic and unhealthy environments, seeking assistance and forced to endure long delays in the processing of their files.
I sincerely ask you to take that into consideration.
Thank you.
:
Mr. Chair, members of the committee and Ms. Desbiens, good morning.
I am the director of the Office municipal d'habitation de Baie-Saint-Paul. Today I want to shed some light on the significant and urgent need to increase the core need income threshold, the CNIT, used to determine social housing eligibility.
To qualify for social housing in rural areas, applicants must have incomes of less than $23,500, whereas the threshold in Quebec City, for example, and other major centres, is $34,500.
In my job, I am regularly required to tell people working 30 hours a week for minimum wage that they're too wealthy to qualify for social housing. I would sincerely prefer not to have to tell heads of single-parent families with two dependent children and incomes of $31,000 that they earn too much money to be live in low-cost housing.
This is 2023, and it's high time we acknowledged that maintaining such a large gap between the CNIT for large cities and the one for rural areas isn't justifiable or fair for everyone. It's essential that action be taken to solve this problem, and I'm very much relying on you to ensure that message is heard.
My name is Marie-Pier Gravel, and I am the assistant manager of La bouchée généreuse.
The situation of food banks in Quebec is critical, as it is in the rest of Canada. Calls for help are skyrocketing, vastly exceeding available resources.
Ten per cent of the population of Canada now relies on food banks to feed themselves. At La bouchée généreuse, the organization where I work, 350 families relied on food aid every week in 2019. In 2023, that number has tripled to 1,000 families a week. Requests for assistance are constantly rising, endangering the capacity of food banks to help every family in need. What resources will those families have when they are no longer able to feed their children? Will they be forced to consider stealing?
You should be outraged by the figures I'm giving you. It's essential that quick and effective action be taken. It's shameful that so many families and individuals go hungry in a country as wealthy as Canada. The funding that governments currently provide are paltry compared to the scope of this crisis. It is the duty of every elected member to guarantee that the public be able to feed themselves appropriately.
I encourage you to visit the food banks in your constituencies before the next budget is adopted.
My name is Julie Bernier, owner and editor of the newspaper Ici I'info.
I'm here this morning to tell you about the media crisis. We never received subsidies during the COVID‑19 pandemic because it was too complicated to apply for them. I can't complete and submit the applications on my own. I need outside assistance, but that's too costly. For that reason, I can never file for subsidies.
As you are also aware, we are being cannibalized, as it were, by the online media. Advertising revenue is the only thing keeping us afloat. If everyone goes onto the Internet, our advertising revenue will dry up. However, local news is important, and even critically so for democracy and for people. It's important for everyone, not just seniors.
Consequently, I would ask you please to simplify the process or make someone available to help us complete subsidy applications without us being required to pay out astronomical amounts of money.
That's more or less what I wanted to say, but I think I may have forgotten most of it.
I am Roseline Roussel, general manager of Le Pignon bleu.
In 1989, the parties in the House of Commons said that child poverty was a national horror, a national disgrace, and committed to eradicating it before the year 2000.
Today, one in four children in our region suffers from food insecurity. That's worse than ever. We are the only G7 country that does not have a universal food program for children.
Current funding to address food insecurity is inadequate. We hope that serious efforts will be made this year and that budgets will be accessible and allocated not to targeted trust companies that charge management fees and accumulate surpluses, but to the actual local players on the ground.
Thank you.
My name is Christian Hébert, and I am the president of the Union des producteurs agricoles de Portneuf.
I want to tell you that climate change is making our lives harder. This summer, we saw very high precipitation levels in the Portneuf region and elsewhere in Quebec. The government will have to step in and support farmers.
A quick action that the Canadian government should consider in addressing farmers' flagging cash flows is to delay the repayment of loans that farms received under the Canada emergency business account program during the pandemic. That would reduce the financial burden borne by farmers during this uncertain and turbulent time. We think the government should consider delaying repayment for at least two years to allow farmers the time to recover from the economic situation and the environmental context caused by last summer's poor weather.
I have left a copy of my entire statement, which contains all the details and figures, with MP Caroline Desbiens, who can forward them to you.
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Thanks to the entire committee.
:
Good morning, everyone.
I'm taking part in this consultation today as a citizen, and more particularly as a father and grandfather.
There is a fundamental choice to be made in this next budget, and that is whether to combat climate change. The budget must absolutely afford future generations, our grandchildren, a chance to live on a healthy, clean and tolerable planet. In the short term, that means a stop to partisan battles over issues like the carbon tax. You must absolutely present a budget that will enable you to say, in 10 or 20 years, that you were there and that you did what had to be done to meet the objectives in the fight against climate change. Those objectives are essential, and not only for Quebec and Canada.
I would like to make one final point: we have to stop arguing that other people elsewhere in the world aren't doing their part. If your house is on fire, you don't look to see if the person in the living room is doing his job. You reach for a fire extinguisher and put out the fire in the room you're in.
My name is Michel Côté, and I am the general manager of Immeuble populaire de Québec. I also represent the Fédération des OBNL d'habitation.
I would briefly like to address two points.
Funding is available for community support for veterans, but not for housing. Housing funding is transferred to the Quebec government but isn't earmarked for veterans. I find that somewhat sad. We have trouble providing housing that is intended for them. We mix them in with other clienteles. They have specific problems and needs that are important to consider.
In the next budget, I'd also like you to take into account the need to provide new funding to the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation. We need a federal co‑investment and initial funding. We need that in order to start up projects. CMHC's coffers have unfortunately been empty for quite some time.
Thank you.
:
With nearly 170,000 members, the National Association of Federal Retirees is the largest advocacy organization for active members and retirees of the federal public service, the Canadian Armed Forces, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police and federally appointed judges.
The National Association of Federal Retirees wishes to make the following recommendations to the Standing Committee on Finance:
First, commit to long-term care standards and a national seniors strategy.
Second, fund and implement a drug insurance plan.
Third, support caregivers.
Fourth, guarantee fair outcomes for veterans.
Fifth, solve all Phoenix-related issues.
Sixth, add a pensioners representative to the board of directors of the Canada Pension Plan Investment Board.
Seventh, update federal retiree benefits.
Eighth, address cost‑of‑living issues.
Thank you.
:
We are back, everyone. I'm glad we have the interpretation working. We have to make sure it is always functioning and that everybody can receive messages in the language of their choice.
Again, I want to thank those who came to the open mike. We should give them a round of applause.
Some hon. members: Hear, hear!
The Chair: They did an amazing job. We wish we could have them all at the table here.
We're going to hear from those with opening statements, and then we're going into questions from members. Let me introduce who we have with us here today.
From the Canadian Worker Co-op Federation, we have Hazel Corcoran, executive director.
From the Fédération des chambres de commerce du Québec, we have Charles Milliard, president and chief executive officer, and Mathieu Lavigne, director of public and economic affairs.
From the Manufacturiers et Exportateurs du Québec, we have Véronique Proulx, president and chief executive officer. I understand that Madame Proulx has to leave by 10 o'clock, so members, if you have questions for her, make sure you get them in by 10 o'clock.
Finally, from the Mouvement autonome et solidaire des sans-emploi, we have Benoit Lapointe, co-coordinator.
We're going to opening statements. We'll start with the Canadian Worker Co-op Federation, please.
:
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Good morning.
My name is Hazel Corcoran, and I am executive director of the Canadian Worker Co‑op Federation.
On behalf of our 64 worker co‑ops across the country and the three Quebec federations that constitute our membership, I am pleased to be with you in this beautiful province, a province with a robust heritage and strong co‑operative culture.
[English]
There are over 250 worker co-operatives in various industries in Quebec alone, and a total of 440 worker co-operatives across Canada, ranging from the forestry sector and agriculture to food manufacturing, construction and the service sector. In fact, right here in Quebec City there are many worker co-ops, including, as one example, the Coopérative des techniciens ambulanciers du Québec, CTAQ, which provides paramedic services to Quebec City and Saguenay—Lac-Saint-Jean and has over 500 worker members.
To provide more background on the worker co-op model, a worker co-op is an employee-owned enterprise that follows co-operative principles such as democratic member control and concern for community. Worker co-operatives have a proven track record and a superior survival rate compared to other enterprises.
Over 100 studies across many countries have indicated that employee ownership is linked to increases in firm performance and productivity, greater job stability with fewer layoffs, significant potential to alleviate income inequality and improved quality of the workplace due to workers having greater control, more aligned incentives and increased skills development. In some ways, worker co-ops are similar to other forms of employee ownership; they are just the most democratic form of it. Worker co-operatives are well suited as a strategy for business succession, which is a huge concern as the baby boomer generation retires. Encouraging employee buyouts can help prevent the closure of locally based businesses, including many in rural communities. That is why we are so pleased to see the Government of Canada's interest in introducing employee ownership trusts in Canada and providing modest tax relief to such models in budget 2023.
However, while the government ponders its approaches to EOTs, we also request that the worker co-operative model be provided a level playing field to employee ownership trusts. We kindly ask that the government provide tax changes to worker co-ops that are comparable to those provided to employee ownership trusts.
More specifically, we recommend that the government add worker co-ops to qualifying conditions and definitions in the legislation, since worker co-ops are quite distinct from EOTs. Including language specific to them means they would be able to access these benefits and any future benefits.
Provide business owners who sell to worker co-operatives the same proposed extension, from five to 10 years, for capital gains reserves as those who sell to EOTs. In addition, as those who invest in worker co-ops themselves do not benefit from capital gains tax exemptions, we ask that you consider another tax change that could benefit worker co-ops specifically: Create a federal co-operative investment plan. A program to encourage investment in the sector through a tax deduction on the investment would support and grow the worker co-op sector.
Last, we are advocating that the government ensure entrepreneurs and businesses are not penalized when claiming the small business deduction simply because they are members of a co-operative operating in sectors other than agriculture and fisheries.
In 2016, with the passage of Bill , the federal government brought in measures aimed at preventing multiplication of benefits derived from the SBD. An unintended consequence was that the provisions penalized Canadian-controlled private corporations that are members of co-operatives or whose shareholders are members of co-operatives, because they are now unfairly deemed to be a related party. Although co-ops were not specifically targeted by the measures, they and their members were affected negatively.
[Translation]
To sum up, although the work co‑op model has received little support from governments, it has made it possible to create thousands of high-value jobs in Quebec and the rest of Canada, while supporting workers in often vulnerable sectors.
Although we are pleased to see the Canadian government's interest in worker-shareholder trusts, the Canadian Worker Co‑operative Federation and its members seek equal consideration when it comes to applying tax changes and other incentives to those trusts.
I will be happy to answer your questions.
I want to thank the committee for this opportunity to take part in its pre-budget consultations.
Good morning, everyone.
My name is Charles Milliard. I am president and chief executive officer of the Fédération des chambres de commerce du Québec. With me is my friend and colleague Mathieu Lavigne, who is our director of public and economic affairs.
As you probably know, the federation represents nearly 50,000 businesses in Quebec and more than 120 chambers of commerce across the province. We are the largest network of businesses and business people in Quebec. We are both a federation of chambers of commerce and a provincial chamber of commerce, the Chambre de commerce du Québec.
All our members, both businesses and chambers of commerce, strive to achieve the same goal: to promote an innovative and competitive business environment and, especially, to make a substantive contribution to regional economic development across Quebec.
Thank you for having me here this morning to tell you what we would like to see in the federal government's 2024‑2025 budget. This past summer, we submitted our brief, which contained 11 specific and targeted recommendations. A more exhaustive version will follow as part of the consultations conducted by the Department of Finance. Allow me to focus on three themes this morning: labour, the economic development of all regions of Quebec and the state of public finances and taxation.
We will begin with the first theme: the labour shortage.
As you know, for some years now, all of Quebec's economic sectors have been coping with the biggest challenge there is: a labour shortage. This situation, I should mention, is the combined result of an aging population and a strong and resilient economy.
However, this undue pressure on the labour market will continue to intensify in the next few years. The labour shortage will be a cause for concern for another decade or so.
According to the Institut national de santé publique du Québec, 25% of Quebec's population, one quarter of the population, will be 65 years of age or more in 2030. As we all know, the province's birth rate has generally been trending downward since 2013.
As the pool of native Quebec workers continues to decline in the coming years, immigration clearly appears to be a prime solution and occupies an important position in meeting our labour needs. However, other responses are also available: more effective promotion of student internships, a more effective approach to continuing training for our workers and stronger incentives for experienced workers to extend their careers.
The federal government has a role to play in all these areas. That is why we are making four recommendations this morning: promptly announce investments to be made in placement programs for students across Canada until 2030; replace the Canadian training credit with a new voluntary continuing training savings plan, which I would be pleased to discuss with you during the question period; introduce more robust measures to raise the average retirement age; and—an interesting suggestion to make—reinvest in Canadian embassies in North Africa to reduce processing times for immigration files from those regions, which as we know, greatly contribute to the international economic francophonie.
The second important theme that I want to address this morning is the economic development of Quebec's regions.
The Quebec and Canadian economy is strong when all regions contribute fully to its development. To ensure that happens, we need logistical and transportation infrastructure that is modern and worthy of a G7 country and that enables workers, entrepreneurs and goods to circulate freely within our borders.
On this point, I want to note that one of our recommendations has already been realized. We are very pleased that the federal government has confirmed additional funding of $150 million for the expansion of the Port of Montreal at Contrecœur. This is excellent news for such a strategic project.
Similarly, we strongly recommend that the government immediately set aside the necessary funding to build the high-frequency or high-speed rail line linking Quebec City, Montreal and Ontario with an accelerated schedule for completion. We also recommend that it enhance the airports capital assistance program in the Canadian regions and reduce the high tariff rates charged to air carriers that use Canadian airports.
Furthermore, to maximize the impact of the new green industries developing in all our regions, we recommend that tax and financial incentives associated with Canada's plan for a clean economy be contingent on flexible criteria related to content supplied by Canada or allies, that is to say, from free-trading Canadian partners.
Lastly, I come to the final theme for this morning, the state of our public finances and taxation.
We think it is essential that the government submit a plan for balancing the budget within five years.
We would also like Canada to draw on the example of the Quebec government, which this week reiterated its commitment to maintain a balanced budget until 2027‑2028. I say that in an apolitical way. It's a good source of inspiration for Canadian parliamentarians.
I will conclude my presentation by naming, in quick succession, a few topics on which we think the committee should focus its attention. First, the government should make incremental innovations eligible for the scientific research and experimental development incentive program, the review report of which the government should be releasing very soon. We also recommend that it introduce an equipment modernization and cyber security tax credit. Lastly, it is important to ensure that the new national drug insurance plan supplements the present Quebec system in order to maintain flexibility.
Thank you.
:
Mr. Chair, members of the Standing Committee on Finance, I am pleased to be with you today to present the recommendations of the Manufacturiers et Exportateurs du Québec regarding the 2024‑2025 budget.
[English]
Canadian Manufacturers and Exporters, which we are part of, submitted its pre-budget submission earlier this year. Today I will focus on the recommendations that are most relevant for Quebec manufacturers given the challenges we have in the province. My presentation will be in French, but I will be happy to answer any questions in English afterwards.
[Translation]
The manufacturing sector represents 13,000 businesses. Our activities generate 12.8% of Quebec's gross domestic product, which, to date, makes us the biggest contributor to Quebec's GDP. We are also major exporters: manufactured goods constitute 86.8% of Quebec exports.
The economic situation across Canada is uncertain and unpredictable. The federal government can count on Quebec and Canadian manufacturers to support the economy, but they must be given the necessary tools to do so. Today I am going to outline some of our recommendations, divided into four major themes.
The first of those themes is labour and access to talent.
There are nearly 22,000 vacant positions in Québec's manufacturing sector. That fact is still the greatest drag on both manufacturers' growth and, it's important to note, on investment. There are 16,000 temporary foreign workers in our sector in Quebec. Quebec manufacturers use the temporary foreign workers program.
To address this situation, we have two recommendations.
First, we need to align the immigration system with the needs of manufacturers. More specifically, we want the government to be able to select more welders, electrical engineers and mechanical engineering technicians so that economic immigration can serve Quebec and Canadian manufacturers.
The second recommendation concerns housing. There is a housing crisis all across Quebec. The major manufacturers will invest in housing, by both purchasing and renovating, in order to house their workers. As you can understand, however, these kinds of investments are harder for small and medium-sized manufacturing businesses to make. We therefore ask that the government accelerate investment and cooperate with the provinces and municipalities so that we can quickly build more housing across Quebec and maintain our manufacturing operations in the regions.
The second major theme is stimulating investment.
Canada ranks second last for non-residential investment among the countries of the Organisation for Economic Co‑operation an Development. We now invest less in this area than we did in 2014, which means that we have experienced negative growth since that year.
Many significant investment projects are unfortunately being delayed or cancelled in the current economic context. We recommend several measures in our brief to address this situation. I will briefly present four of them to you. First of all, the government should introduce a 10% investment tax credit, as is being done in Quebec and the Atlantic provinces. Second, it should extend the accelerated investment incentive. If we want to stimulate investment now, in a context of uncertainty, we need to encourage businesses to do so. Third, the government should also extend and recapitalize the strategic innovation fund and commit at least $2.5 billion a year to it. Fourth and last, it should enhance and reform the scientific research and experimental development tax incentives program. That's particularly important for Quebec's aerospace industry.
Exports are the third theme of our recommendations.
We need to increase exports. However, it's often difficult for businesses to enter international markets. They must be a known quantity and have had contracts here in Canada. Which is why we recommend that the federal government review its procurement policies and eliminate the lowest bidder rule to enable our businesses, which are competitive, to access public contracts. These are businesses that produce here in Canada in compliance with environmental and occupational health and safety standards. They must be given a chance to bid for and access public contracts.
We must also provide better support for small and medium-sized manufacturing businesses. Only 1,000 of the 13,000 manufacturing businesses in Quebec have more than 100 employees. However, the 12,000 businesses with fewer than 100 employees need export assistance. They need to be provided with better support and more programs to mitigate the risks associated with their initial forays into international markets.
The fourth and final major theme is the fight against climate change.
The big challenge in the next few years will be to decarbonize activities. Quebec and Canadian manufacturers want to contribute to the federal government's carbon-neutrality objectives and to be part of the solution. However, they need more support and predictability, as well as key measures, in view of the investments that will be required.
More than a year ago, the U.S. government announced a range of tax measures under its Inflation Reduction Act. Here in Canada, we are still awaiting the measures the federal government announced to materialize. For a year now, businesses operating on both sides of the border haven't even had to wonder on which side of the border to invest their money to decarbonize their operations: they know it's better to do it on the American side. Consequently, the government must expedite implementation of the five tax credits previously announced and ensure that those programs are predictable and more broadly based to stimulate investment in Quebec and Canada.
Thank you very much. I will be pleased to answer your questions.
:
Mr. Chair and members of the committee, good morning.
Thank you for inviting us here today to outline the investments that need to be made to improve Canada's employment insurance plan. Our complete arguments for a thorough reform of the plan are laid out in our brief.
These days, as we have all seen, whatever happens on the other side of the world has an impact on our economy here at home. Climate change is also destabilizing natural-resource-based businesses and our economy as a whole. These events and phenomena are beyond our control, but a good employment insurance plan is one of the essential tools we can use to offset their consequences and provide some security and stability to the entire population of this country.
Choosing an employment insurance plan can also help us avoid tragedies. The Mouvement autonome et solidaire des sans-emploi, or MASSE, would like to express its condolences to the families of the three fishermen from the community of Blanc-Sablon who recently died. We will not forget them.
It isn't right that, in a G7 country in 2023, people should need to risk their lives in a storm at sea because they need to accumulate 595, 665 or 700 hours of work to qualify for employment insurance in their region and then hope to survive on benefits that won't even last the entire off-season. We, as a country, have the resources to correct this situation. It's a matter of priorities. If people want to eat seafood in Ottawa, someone has to fish for it off the east coast. However, no one should have to risk his life trying to qualify for employment insurance just to fill our plates.
There are a few simple solutions for considerably improving the plan starting in 2024, while we introduce the full reform that we have been promised.
In 2020, thanks to the Statistics Canada Simulation database, the Institut de recherche et d'informations socioéconomiques, or IRIS, determined that the introduction of a single eligibility threshold of 350 hours or 13 weeks of work would make it possible to redistribute approximately $1.7 billion in benefits to unemployed workers. That would help maintain the economic vitality of many communities and prevent more than 90,000 households from falling into poverty.
I would also note that it is possible to establish a single threshold. The government did it during the pandemic. We also think that the regional unemployment rate isn't an indicator of the number of jobs available in a region. We therefore request that this requirement be dropped.
The measure of establishing a single threshold of 35 weeks of benefits for eligible individuals would cost the employment insurance fund approximately $1.2 billion annually. That lower threshold is a relatively inexpensive measure that would avoid the black hole of employment insurance for thousands of families. As I said earlier, it could save lives.
One thing is for sure, and that's that, given the rising cost of living in recent years, unemployed workers can't support themselves on only 55% of their normal income. That income must be sharply increased. If the benefit rate is raised to 70%, rather than maintained at the current rate of 55%, the additional benefit amounts remitted would total $4.7 billion.
Of course, many options are available to the Minister of Finance to finance these measures.
First, the return of the government contribution equal to 20% of the total amount of employer and employee contributions would add approximately $5 billion to the fund annually. And that's not an impossible measure, since that kind of contribution was made until 1990.
Second, savings of approximately $2 billion could be achieved every year by ending funding for employability programs from the EI fund. We at MASSE believe that employer and employee contributions should not be used to fund those programs.
It should also be borne in mind that there was a time, not long ago, when the contribution rate was approximately 3% of salary. It's less than half that today. Given the rule requiring that the fund must have a zero balance every 7 years, the fund seems fated to be less and less suited to the needs of unemployed Canadians. If, every time the fund showed a small surplus, those amounts were used to improve the plan rather than to offer contributors very minor reductions calculated in fractions of a percentage point, the plan could be sustainably improved and a new balance could then be established by achieving, in the long term, a more accessible, fair, universal and non-discriminatory plan.
I would recall that $57 billion was removed from the employment insurance fund in 2008. And let's remember that Mr. Duceppe demanded to know where unemployed workers' money had gone.
In addition, approximately $20 billion was taken from the fund in recent years and used to fund the Canada emergency response benefit.
If those amounts removed from the fund were recovered, the employment insurance plan would have a cushion that could be used to fund the proposed improvements as it gradually found its new balance.
The plan is currently underfunded and exacerbates the inequalities within our society. Canada's workers deserve better than that. Everyone who contributed should be entitled to benefits if they become unemployed.
Surely it's possible to make choices in the 2024 budget that will improve the present plan. The employment insurance plan may find its budgetary balance in its improved version. The choice is political, not financial.
:
Yes, we are requesting assistance for the airport sector in two different ways. Quebec City's airport is a good example because it could be considered a regional airport or a large airport, depending on one's point of view.
There are two things to point out.
First, let's talk about the federal government's responsibilities with regard to airport infrastructure. In Canada, that infrastructure, in many cases, suffers from a major lack of maintenance and equipment modernization. There absolutely has to be more investment in that infrastructure. It's important for our ability to welcome visitors and for business tourism. We really need to expand the capacity of airport terminals. That's the federal government's responsibility.
Second, costs for air carriers in Canada are particularly high, which definitely limits development of regional, national and international connections.
Consequently, the government can and should take action on these two points to make our airports more competitive. We aren't leaders in this area compared to other G7 countries.
:
Most of the Quebec economy consists of SMEs, even in the manufacturing sector, although it's often associated with large businesses. All Quebec sectors consist mostly of SMEs.
That's especially important from a regional economic development standpoint. You know that, since as an MP you represent Charlevoix, among other areas. SMEs essentially form the economic core of our communities in the regions outside the major centres.
Looking at the situation from a broader perspective, when you think of businesses that may be weakened by the obligation to repay the CEBA loan, you may immediately think only of certain businesses that are often viewed as less successful. However, when you look at the actual cases of communities in certain regions or neighbourhoods, you see that those businesses are pillars of their community. They are the businesses that are being undermined by being asked to repay these amounts at this time.
The impact is very real for many people in many communities. That's why we would like to see a one-year delay, even though we're aware that repayment can't be postponed indefinitely and that a contract has to be complied with. You have to consider the situation people are experiencing in many regions.
:
Thank you for your very informative answer.
I'd like to discuss employment insurance. I'm going to ask Mr. Lavigne, Mr. Milliard and Mr. Lapointe for their opinions.
When we discuss employment insurance, we make a connection with the regions and SMEs. Once again, these are the same people dealing with the same issues. SMEs often need better labour retention tools, and the tools at their disposal include employment insurance. Often poorly understood by decision-makers, employment insurance is a tool for attracting and retaining labour in the regions, in addition to helping to retain employee competencies and loyalty in their business. All of that applies to SMEs, which are also experiencing these issues.
My question is for Mr. Lapointe first. Should an employment insurance reform take into consideration the specific reality of the regions?
:
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Thank you for welcoming me as part of the pre-budget consultations held by the Standing Committee on Finance.
Thanks to the witnesses for being here today.
For starters, I'd like to go to Ms. Corcoran, who is the executive director of the Canadian Worker Co‑op Federation.
My political party and I are very much in favour of the co‑operative model. We often have a vision of society that is either completely private or completely public or governmental, whereas there's really quite a variation between the two.
Whether it's housing co‑operatives or worker co‑operatives, I think it's a good model. And you're right in saying that it produces businesses that are deeply rooted, that are local and that have a high survival rate.
Earlier you mentioned the succession problem. For example, if an entrepreneur decides to sell his business, there aren't a lot of models under which his employees would be granted a benefit enabling them to purchase the business and turn it into a worker co‑operative. However, that would be a good model. There are examples of legislative measures in the United States and Great Britain that would be helpful in that regard.
Where do we stand in Canada? What measures would you like to see introduced to enable employees, workers, to purchase the business of an individual who is retiring or whose children don't want to take over?
:
I would prefer that somebody do something quickly; that's for sure.
Having said that, I'm sensitive to the argument that we're the only G7 country that doesn't have a high-speed train, although that's not the fashion in the United States either. We would be in favour of a high-speed train, but I think a high-frequency train would be a very promising project for the Quebec City-Toronto corridor.
Once again, what's important is the predictability of that project. If we seriously believe in it, we can't go from committee to committee and question period to question period without setting money aside for that project. I'm not suggesting the government isn't serious. On the contrary, many studies have been conducted and many clear commitments made. However, this project should be transpartisan and apolitical. That may be just another dream that I'm having. Historically speaking, the birth of Canada sprang from the idea of that east to west railway. However, 156 years later, we find ourselves having to renew that project. It's high time we invested in it.
:
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I must say you are looking bright-eyed and bushy-tailed. We both got delayed on our flights and arrived at the hotel at 1 a.m. last night. Good on you.
I'm going to take this opportunity to address Ms. Proulx, because as timing worked out, I think I have the last five minutes. I appreciate all of you for coming here.
[Translation]
It's a great pleasure for me to speak with you.
[English]
Ms. Proulx, thank you. We're going to need you and your members. We're coming through a pretty dark time with respect to the Canadian economy. Our productivity is among the worst in the OECD. Capital investment, as you pointed out, is the second lowest.
I'm going to give you the floor for more time to perhaps talk a bit about amortization and the elimination of red tape. What can we do to help you? We desperately need you and your members in the province of Quebec and manufacturers to lead the way to get us out of this economic quagmire we're in.
It's an honour and a pleasure for me to be sitting in on the Standing Committee on Finance, of which I am not a member. I'm here to replace someone else.
My questions will be for Mr. Milliard.
The labour shortage is obviously a serious challenge, and we're looking for ways to increase the labour supply. However, it is a theoretical principle in economics that a labour shortage encourages businesses to invest in equipment that will let them continue producing with fewer employees. In this instance, we're talking about IT systems and automated equipment, for example.
Do your members have any such projects under way given the labour shortage? Do they want to make a lot of investments and so on to continue production by involving less labour and more technological resources?
:
That's an excellent question. You're right to relate this back to basic economic concepts. In order to ensure productivity, you have to have either more people producing more or better processes. Since no people are available in Canada, we have to consider investing in innovation.
Incidentally, if there is one sector that's paving the way in this field, it's manufacturing. It's making major investments in innovation. Unfortunately, that's not the case in all economic sectors. I'd even say that, in certain sectors, there's some ignorance, in the respectful sense of that term, about how to improve business processes.
The government, of course, has a role to play, but businesses do as well. It's not always up to the government to do everything, and I think businesses need to be more aware of that.
However, incentives will definitely encourage businesses to consider investing in innovation, especially in the contracting economy and surging inflation we're experiencing. If businesses feel the government is supporting them in this area, that will accelerate the transition to greater innovation.
In its recent economic update, the provincial government renewed the tax credit for investment and innovation until 2029. This is a measure that was hailed in Quebec and that I believe could provide inspiration for the federal government.
You're right to say that innovation is definitely the key to enhanced productivity and greater competitiveness.
:
It will be hard to answer that in one minute.
First of all, successful immigration is geographically diversified immigration. We think that regionalizing immigration in Quebec is a challenge. People often land in Montreal, and sometimes in Quebec City, not in the other regions of Quebec, and, once again, out of ignorance. Consequently, we have to invest in better advertising the immigration options available in our regions.
Francization is obviously an important factor in the specific situation of Quebec. By the way, I would point out, for the benefit of people outside Quebec as well, that the business community agrees on this. However, we can defend the French language without destroying the benefits of bilingualism. That's where we in the business community disagree with the Quebec government.
When you're Canadian and you speak English and French, you speak two of the business languages most used around the world. We should be proud of that and promote it. We can't deprive ourselves of talents that will help us become leaders in certain sectors simply as a result of francization. We have to be extremely vigilant on this.
We can't have a political discourse dictating that we're aiming for 100% francophone immigration. We can pretend it's possible, but it won't happen.
:
I'll summarize it for you in one minute.
We think that we should consider lifelong continuing training. It used to be that we went to school and then university or CEGEP and that we completed our education at the age of 25. Now, we have to acknowledge that it's valuable to go to school and to continue learning all our lives. We have to destigmatize this idea that going back to school and learning new skills is the result of a mistake in our past. That's not the case; it's an investment in the future.
We should have a tax system that acknowledges that. Just as we contribute money to an RRSP for retirement purposes, there could be a plan to which both employees and employers would contribute. That money could grow on a tax-free basis and be used for training projects. It would be a kind of training RRSP. I know that some unions don't agree with this because they think it's employees who should invest in their training.
I think employers could contribute a large portion of their training budgets to the plan. It could also become a separate benefit offered by employers, who could decide to contribute to the plan up to 2% or 3% for every 1% contributed by their employees.
In that way, thanks to the money set aside for six, eight or 10 months, employees' financial situation would be less unstable when they went back to school to earn another diploma or something else later on. I'm the best example of this type of arrangement. I'm a pharmacist by profession, and I'm appearing today before the Standing Committee on Finance. Anything is possible in life.
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In the regions, there are already a lot of co‑operatives, particularly forestry and agricultural co‑operatives.
That said, the subject is not part of my mandate, today, even though I have a master's degree in co‑operative business management. My role today is to promote something else.
Forestry co‑operatives, for example, are seasonal. Even if companies are organized as co‑operatives, they need employment insurance during the winter in Canada, since we can't plant trees when the ground is frozen. So we need to ensure income support for seasonal workers during the period when employment is impossible in the regions, whether these workers are in co‑operatives or not.
However, I love the co‑operative model, of course.
:
The impact would be major. In fact, not only would it cause an earthquake in Quebec's insurance community, but it would also impact the value proposition of employers to employees.
For many employers, the drug benefits they offer set them apart from their competitors. This would have an impact on their ability to compete. Many people in the business community are asking a lot of questions. I would say that our working committee on the issue is one of the most active, along with the life sciences committee, because it's also a sector that needs to be protected in Canada.
Those who live in Montreal, including Mr. Scarpaleggia, may recall that there used to be a thriving pharmaceutical industry on Highway 40 and that now many of those companies have moved to Mississauga.
[English]
That's good for the chair.
[Translation]
All in all, the pharmaceutical market in Quebec calls for the utmost vigilance. The implementation of a drug insurance plan will therefore have to be done in collaboration with the partners.
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We conducted a survey of our members. We could forward it to the committee.
It's important to say that we don't want everyone aged 60 and over to go back to working 40 hours a week.
The best example I can give is the following.
In a regional hardware store, if a 66-year-old wants to return to work one day a week, this will probably allow the owner to avoid burnout, benefit the person who wants to work, and encourage a better transfer of knowledge to younger employees.
The increase in thresholds, among other things on the tax front, is minimal. It's a positive signal we're sending to people aged 60 and over. We're telling them that, if they want to come back to work, even if only for a few hours, it can turn out to be very positive.
I'll go to you, Mr. Milliard.
I want to talk a bit about some recent testimony we heard from the Governor of the Bank of Canada, Tiff Macklem, who said that the fiscal policy—in other words, the Liberal government policy—of massive expenditures is at cross-purposes with monetary policy, which is driving up inflation rates.
You talked in your brief about the need for fiscal equilibrium. Maybe you could also comment on the impact on your members of interest rates increasing, especially given that this government seems unwilling to relent or to work with your members with respect to CEBA and other government programs.
:
Yes, we have to take that into account. This was already part of the requests we submitted this summer. The situation has evolved, however. In its budget update, the Quebec government announced new sums and a new business assistance program.
It's important to point out that this doesn't just concern companies in the forestry sector, as you say, but also the whole sector around it, particularly the recreational tourism sector, which has been hit hard.
In our view, the solution would be to see whether we need a new federal program or whether we should simply match the measures to what the Quebec government has implemented, i.e., by stowing the sums in the same vehicle as the Quebec government's program. This would have the advantage of avoiding duplication and creating additional bureaucracy. The need is truly urgent for communities, particularly in Nord-du-Québec, Abitibi-Témiscamingue and Saguenay-Lac-Saint-Jean, that require reconstruction assistance.
:
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Allow me to make a brief comment on the universal public drug plan.
The Quebec plan has advantages, but also disadvantages. Among other things, part-time employees who have supplemental insurance often see 25% to 40% of their salary sent back to pay for this famous supplemental insurance. What's more, the costs of this are rising every year due to rising drug prices.
According to the most recent Hoskins report, the best way to reduce drug costs is to have this kind of plan, and it must be done in collaboration with the provinces. Such a plan will benefit not only workers, but also employers and the hospital system in general, because everyone will save money.
Mr. Milliard, you spoke earlier about the delays in bringing in talent from elsewhere. There are major problems linked to these delays in immigration at the moment. In the riding I represent, Rosemont-La Petite-Patrie, there are just SMEs. There are no big companies. In particular, there are video game companies, including Moment Factory, and artificial intelligence companies.
You said there were more resources in the Maghreb offices. Why target these offices in particular?
:
I'd like everybody's attention. We just had an excellent first panel. I'm sure we'll have the same with our second panel.
Witnesses, you're here for our pre-budget consultations in advance of the 2024 budget. We thank you for joining us. We are delighted to be here in Quebec City as we do a tour right across Canada. We've done the Atlantic provinces, and now we are starting in Quebec and moving across Canada until we get to our most western province, British Columbia.
With us today we have, from the Aluminium Association of Canada, the president and chief executive officer, Jean Simard, and from the Association des professionnels de la construction et de l’habitation du Québec, the vice-president of development, public affairs and strategic innovation, Isabelle Demers, and the director of the economic department, Paul Cardinal.
From Equiterre we have the director of government relations, Marc-André Viau, and from the organization Amélie et Frédérick, Service d'entraide, we have Véronique Beaulieu and Louis-Philippe Delisle.
We also have, from the Union des municipalités du Québec, the senior vice-president and mayor of Mascouche, Guillaume Tremblay. Welcome, Your Worship. The strategic policy adviser, Samuel Roy, is with us as well.
With that, we're going to get going because we have limited time. We want to get as much time in for members and witnesses as we can.
We'll start with the Aluminium Association of Canada for five minutes.
:
Mr. Chair, ladies and gentlemen, good morning. Thank you for this invitation.
The members of the Aluminum Association of Canada are responsible for 100% of the primary production made by Alcoa, Rio Tinto and the Alouette aluminum smelter. This morning, my talk will focus on our industry's needs to answer the call to decarbonize North America through electrification.
As part of the decarbonization of our North American continent, aluminum produced here in Canada is set to play a highly strategic role. Indeed, Canada produces 80% of all primary aluminum manufactured in North America. According to the World Bank, this material is the only critical, high-impact, cross-cutting material required to meet the electrification needs leading to decarbonization. Aluminum is found in solar panels, wind turbines, transmission lines—where it makes up 100% of the material—and electric vehicle batteries. Ultimately, the electrification of America only makes sense if it is based on materials that are themselves decarbonized, of which aluminum is one.
Facing carbon-intensive competition from India, the Middle East and China, Canadian industry, in partnership with the governments of Canada and Quebec, is developing the inert anode, which will enable us to completely eliminate greenhouse gas emissions from our processes.
[English]
While our competition—China, India and the Middle East—is vying to get where we are today by 2040, we are leapfrogging into the future to keep the edge by developing the Elysis game-changing technology taking us from low to no CO2. It also means developing here in Canada an entirely new world-class industrial manufacturing ecosystem providing jobs of the future and for the future for Canadians.
Elysis changes the aluminium production process to avoid CO2 emissions while releasing only oxygen into the atmosphere. At term, this technology could eliminate the remaining 6.5 million tonnes of GHG emissions from our plants, potentially setting the mark and displacing our high carbon-based competition from India, China and the Middle East.
We are in a high-stakes, high-risk environment leading to industrial scale-up and deployment. Being there today is the result of a partnership between Alcoa and Rio Tinto, as well as Canada and Quebec. The capital intensity and high risk involved are such that they can only be achieved through a partnership. Such a highly capital-intensive undertaking needs de-risking all along, and without access to enabling tax policies, the pathway becomes less certain.
This is as large a strategic industrial transition as electric vehicles and batteries. We deserve the same attention and investment tax credit for clean technologies and for clean technology manufacturing.
While we make aluminium with the lowest carbon footprint in the world here in Canada, we are also an emission-intensive industry. For every one tonne of aluminium we make, we produce two tonnes of CO2. We want to eliminate this entirely.
As China and Russia have recently announced merging their research capacity to accelerate the development of the Russian inert anode technology, Canada must keep its momentum going and accelerate the pace of the demonstration and deployment phases. This is our race to the moon. This is Canada's moment. Zero-carbon aluminium is currently out of scope for federal tax credits in Canada, while the IRA supports the aluminium industry and clean-tech manufacturing, such as inert anodes, with a 10% tax credit on production costs.
Recognizing the critical importance of aluminium to energy transformation, the need to decarbonize aluminium production to achieve carbon neutrality by 2050 and the opportunity for Canada to become the global anchor for carbon-free aluminium smelting and supply chain technologies, the Aluminium Association of Canada recommends that governments include all aluminium sector decarbonization technologies in their lists of tax-credit-eligible technologies. More specifically, the following types of equipment should be eligible for the credit: equipment intended to produce aluminium by a process that eliminates substantially all of the greenhouse gases resulting directly from the electrolysis of alumina. This material includes the goods necessary to manufacture, transform and assemble the materials required for this aluminium production, such as anodic and cathodic materials.
Activities related to clean-technology manufacturing in the aluminium value chain should also be eligible. As we fast-forward this game-changing technology development and industrial scale-up, massive investments in the billions of dollars are required and will only materialize in an enabling fiscal environment, de-risking and grounding the technology here in Canada.
This is Canada's moment to be world first and world leading through its 100-plus years of aluminium legacy.
First of all, thank you for welcoming us today to the Standing Committee on Finance as part of pre-budget consultations for the 2024 budget.
The Association des professionnels de la construction et de l'habitation du Québec, or APCHQ, is a private, non-profit organization that brings together more than 20,000 companies in 13 regional associations. Specializing in housing and renovation, it has been, since 1995, the employer representative with the mandate to negotiate the collective agreement for 16,000 employers in the residential sector.
The APCHQ's mission is to be a unifying agent of change for the benefit of Quebec society by representing and supporting professionals in the residential construction and renovation industry. The APCHQ's 20,000 members, through their residential construction and renovation activities, contribute to the province's economic and social development by housing Quebeckers. Our industry represents an economic contribution of $45.6 billion and 270,000 direct and indirect jobs. More specifically, 70% of our members work in renovation, and 30% in new construction. Finally, our members work mainly in the residential sector.
Since the early 2000s, the real estate market has been in deep imbalance. The resale market systematically favours sellers. Property prices have quadrupled. Affordability is currently at its worst level in three decades. Quebec's homeownership rate is declining for the first time in its history, and young people are the hardest hit. Quebec is also lagging far behind the rest of Canada. Indeed, the homeownership rate stands at 59.9% in Quebec, while it is 66.5% in Canada.
We are therefore collectively creating the first generation that will not be able to own a home, a generation that, in 20 or 30 years' time, will be more vulnerable. Given the impact of home ownership on household wealth, this is very worrying.
Furthermore, the rental vacancy rate is below the equilibrium threshold of 3% across the province, falling from 2.5% in 2000 to 1.7% in 2022. In the absence of supply, upward pressure on rents is strong. It's what you might call a perfect storm.
Following on from this state of play, let's now talk about the causes of this historic downturn. The problem is not cyclical, but structural. Over the past few decades, the supply of new housing has not kept pace with demand. As elsewhere in the country, there is now a strong consensus that Quebec has been underbuilding for several years. In 2023, housing starts in Quebec are already down by 37% after three quarters. The meteoric rise in construction costs, which have reached nearly 40% since the pandemic, and the more recent surge in financing costs, mean that many real estate projects remain on ice, as they are simply no longer financially viable.
The APCHQ forecasts 37,000 residential housing starts in Quebec in 2023, a decrease of 35%, and a very slight recovery of around 11% in 2024, with 41,000 starts. In short, we're heading for the worst year for residential construction since 2001.
The APCHQ is proposing several measures to accelerate the pace of residential construction, but also to promote access to home ownership over the next few years. Already, we welcome the abolition of the GST on the construction of rental housing. This is a structuring measure that is particularly appreciated by the industry. There is no justification for taxing an essential good. Having a roof over your head is not a luxury.
This work must continue, notably by ensuring better financing for the construction and renovation of social and affordable housing; substantially improving the GST rebate for new homes; extending the maximum amortization period for insured mortgages to 30 years; relaxing the “stress test” when qualifying for a new loan, and eliminating it altogether for a renewal.
But this won't be enough, as demand will remain very strong, if not stronger. Our net migration has reached new records. The federal government announced two weeks ago that it was maintaining a threshold of 500,000 new arrivals by 2025, a target that will be maintained over the next few years. In addition, we will need to continue to welcome a high number of temporary workers over the next few years, due to our widespread labour shortage and aging population.
In conclusion, we invite the federal government to spare no effort, to work closely with the Quebec government and municipalities; in short, to be nimble, together.
To unravel the crisis, concerted, strong and targeted interventions are needed, and this from all stakeholders in the housing industry.
Thank you.
:
Mr. Chair and members of the Standing Committee on Finance, thank you for coming to meet with us here in Quebec City this morning.
I represent one of the largest environmental organizations in Quebec, Équiterre, which has more than 150,000 members and supporters.
I'll start by saying that the climate crisis is not just a theoretical problem. It affects our economic sectors, our supply chains and our personal finances. For example, Les Producteurs de pommes du Québec asked for $30 million in assistance from MAPAQ, Quebec's department of agriculture, fisheries and food, to adapt to climate change. I noticed apples on display at the moment with some members of Parliament, which is a good thing because we grow excellent apples here. However, this industry, and many others, must be protected. To do so requires solid conservation, adaptation and climate change policies.
In terms of personal finances, Quebeckers understand the link between the climate crisis and the cost of living. According to our recent survey, which was conducted by Leger, 89% of Quebeckers agree that extreme climate events have an impact on crops, and therefore on the price of groceries. In addition, 82% of Quebeckers agree that extreme climate events have an impact on infrastructure, and therefore lead to an increase in municipal taxes. The same proportion agrees that extreme weather events have an impact on personal property, which in turn leads to insurance premium increases.
If we do not take climate change seriously and adapt to its consequences, we will not be able to seize opportunities to reduce the cost of living for families. The survey we conducted also shows that 54% of future vehicle buyers consider that the supply of vehicles does not match their budget. This is not surprising, since the cost of purchasing a new vehicle has skyrocketed in Quebec since 2019. It went from $34,000 to an average of $64,000. It's not carbon pricing or any kind of environmental regulation that makes vehicles unaffordable; it's just an industry choice.
Some of the solutions to the rising costs of travel include funding for active and collective mobility. That is why we recommend, in our brief, that $750 million in funding for public transit operations be extended to maintain essential service levels, which also helps reduce mobility expenses for Canadian families.
We also propose the expansion of the zero-emission vehicle incentive or iZEV program, to support the purchase of 50,000 electric assisted bikes, by offering a purchase subsidy. This represents an investment of $75,000 over two years and would help replace motor vehicle travel, which, I would remind you, is becoming less and less affordable.
In terms of food, I would like to point out that sadly, 15% of Quebec children live in families that are food insecure. Rising food prices does not help. If committee members want to help families pay their grocery bills, we recommend that the government increase funding for school food programs by $1 billion over five years in partnership with the provinces.
With respect to agriculture, we encourage the members of this committee to help young farmers deal with the exploding cost of land access caused by speculation through a fund to support access to farmland for the farming community. We're looking for an initial investment of $200 million over five years.
In closing, encouraging repairs would be another way to help Canadian families reduce their budget expenses. One study estimated potential annual savings at $515. Budget 2023 announced the federal government's intention to introduce a right to repair using a 15% tax credit to cover a portion of the costs used to extend the life of appliances. However, as tax credits do not directly reduce the cost of repair, they are identified by consumers as a significant barrier to repair. That is why we encourage the Standing Committee on Finance and the government to explore other approaches. Équiterre proposes to assess the implementation of measures that will help reduce the cost of repairs when people go to repair companies. This could take the form of financial assistance supported by a fund for the repair of appliances and electronics, which would initially cost an estimated $87 million over the first three years, to reduce the cost of repairs made to goods that are not under warranty. We would also like the government to consider giving repair companies a reprieve from the GST.
Thank you for taking the time to come and meet with us and listen to us. We encourage you to take a closer look at our submission.
:
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Ladies and gentlemen, members of the committee, thank you for giving us the opportunity to take part in the pre-budget consultations ahead of the next federal budget.
I am accompanied by Samuel Roy, Strategic Policy Advisor at the Union des municipalités du Québec.
I would start by reminding you that, for more than 100 years now, the Union des municipalités du Québec has been bringing together local governments from all regions of Quebec in order to garner municipal expertise, support its members in their work and promote municipal democracy. Our members represent more than 85% of the population of Quebec.
Municipalities are at the top of the national agenda. Despite all their agility, they are struggling to offer many essential services to the public with decreasing budgets. Today's pre-budget consultations are an opportunity to reiterate the priorities of Quebec's municipalities and submit constructive proposals to address current issues, specifically in terms of infrastructure, climate change adaptation, public transit and, obviously, housing.
First of all, the infrastructure maintenance deficit has been an issue for municipalities for a number of years. The replacement value of water and sewer pipes is estimated at $15 billion. That amount rises to $38 billion if we also take into account the pavement that covers those pipes as well as ad hoc water infrastructure. Quebec municipalities do not have the financial capacity to meet this financial challenge on their own.
A study commissioned recently by the Union des municipalités du Québec showed that 80% of Quebec municipalities had to postpone one or more municipal infrastructure construction projects over the past year, mainly because of price increases. In the medium and long term, this disinvestment could undermine the quality of services provided to the public and result in greater costs for future generations.
The gas tax and Quebec's contribution program, or TECQ, which is funded through the Canada community futures fund, is very much appreciated by the municipal community because it is relatively flexible and predictable.
However, a good number of municipalities have used up the amounts set out in the TECQ program from 2019 to 2023, and there is no word yet if the program will be renewed. A number of municipalities want to plan work now for 2024 and subsequent years, but it is difficult for them to do so without knowing the amounts that will be granted by the other levels of government.
As such, we recommend that the Government of Canada permanently double funding for the Canada community-building fund for municipal infrastructure. By the same token, we recommend that it quickly reach an agreement with the Government of Quebec to ensure that the transfer of funds takes place without any new conditions.
All Quebec municipalities will have to spend an extra $2 billion per year until 2055 because of climate change-related stressors. This increase represents about 12% of current expenditures for Quebec municipalities. This will be the main new expense for municipalities, which will not have the capacity to make these investments on their own. Without adequate adaptation, municipal infrastructure will deteriorate more quickly. Given the future climate, they will be more prone to failures and will cost more.
The science is clear: regardless of our efforts to reduce greenhouse gases, we are vulnerable in many ways. In recent years, a number of municipalities have experienced extreme weather events, such as floods, tornadoes, coastal erosion, forest fires and periods of torrential rain. These events will be amplified and become more frequent in the coming years as a result of climate change.
As such, we recommend that the Government of Canada significantly increase its investments in the disaster mitigation and adaptation fund to accelerate the deployment of climate-resilient infrastructure.
The construction, renovation and upgrading of recreational and sport infrastructure projects play a major role in Quebec's regional socio-economic recovery. The recreational and sport infrastructure financial assistance program, jointly funded by the Governments of Canada and Quebec and implemented in 2018, was deemed insufficient, with projects submitted totalling $1.5 billion, compared to the $294 million in available funding. This meant that five out of six projects were rejected.
Since the end of this program, no additional contribution has been announced by the Government of Canada, even though the Government of Quebec has announced a new 10‑year $1.5 billion program to fund Quebec sports infrastructure.
Quebeckers expect elected officials of all levels of government to provide them with quality recreational and sports infrastructure. You will agree that the COVID‑19 pandemic has highlighted their importance, whether that be in terms of accessibility, health and healthy living or socialization. That is why we are asking the Government of Canada to recommit to funding this infrastructure.
Quebec transit authorities are facing a major funding challenge. Over the next few years, their financial situation is likely to worsen, in part because income streams are stagnating while expenses continue to rise due, among other things, to aging assets. In 2027, the structural deficit of Quebec transit authorities could reach nearly $1 billion, putting the services at risk. We are therefore asking the Government of Canada to support Quebec transit authorities by providing additional funding to increase investments in asset maintenance.
Finally, in Quebec, the housing crisis has been getting worse and worse for several years. I'm sure you know the vacancy rate. Given the rise in interest rates, we are currently seeing a slowdown in housing starts. This crisis has real consequences for our citizens.
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Good morning to the witnesses.
My question is for the representatives of the Association des professionnels de la construction et de l'habitation du Québec.
Gentlemen, in the first recommendation of your brief, you describe a rather dramatic situation. You say that, in 2021, there was already a shortage of 100,000 housing units in Quebec. You say that in order to fill the need in the province, up to 860,000 units will have to be built by 2030. That's not far away; it's seven years from now.
In the second paragraph, you say that this year there will be a 35% to 40% decrease in the number of housing starts.
How can that be resolved? What drastic measures can the federal government take to really help this sector? I think those are huge numbers. The announcements that are being made right now talk about a few thousand units, but you're talking about close to a million units.
What can be done quickly?
:
Good morning, Mr. Chair and members of the committee.
That's a very good question.
First, I would like to clarify something. The Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation, a federal institution, estimates that 860,000 housing units must be built by 2030 to eliminate the housing deficit in Quebec.
To do that, we would have to triple the pace of housing starts that we have seen in recent years in Quebec. Obviously, the challenge is enormous. We will probably not get there, unfortunately, but various things can still be done. We applaud the goods and services tax exemption on new rental housing construction. Of course, we are making the same request to the provincial government with regard to the Quebec sales tax, which is almost 10%. This would reduce construction costs and relaunch some of the rental housing construction projects that are currently on hold because they are not financially viable.
Of course, that will not be enough either, but we could also amend some bylaws. They could beless restrictive and allow more auxiliary dwellings to be built. We could let people convert their homes into duplexes, turn a basement into an apartment, create intergenerational homes—
:
We see no reason to oppose it. This is a bill that can provide a measured response to the housing crisis by setting targets for housing construction in cities, supporting development based on public transit in those areas and encouraging municipalities to be flexible in granting building permits. This bill can help solve the housing crisis.
In early fall, we conducted a survey that revealed that the construction of at least 25,000 housing units was stalled in Quebec. Only 42 of our association's 20,000 members responded to this survey. So that's just the tip of the iceberg.
The main reasons for these blockages are the time it takes to issue construction permits and the referendum approval processes undertaken by small groups of citizens. There may be some NIMBYism.
In short, we have to work with the federal government, municipalities, the Government of Quebec and all stakeholders to find a solution to this crisis. The bill can support that.
:
Unfortunately, sometimes it takes a long time for the two levels of government to agree. We can feel that on the ground.
You're right about the climate change adaptation programs. It brings to mind what happened in Baie‑Saint‑Paul, or the eroding shoreline in the Magdalen Islands, for example. It takes a long time for governments to reach an agreement and unfortunately, at the end of the day, that affects people.
I want to go back to what I was saying about the gas tax fund and Quebec's contribution, or TECQ. It's important to understand that municipalities need predictability in order to issue calls for tenders. For 2024, so next summer, we don't even know yet how much money we will have, and we will be issuing calls for tenders even though there is a labour shortage. At the end of the day, who is going to end up paying dearly? All the people are, through the subsidies that Quebec and Canada have not yet agreed upon.
We're asking that everyone lend a hand as quickly as possible, because, at the end of the day, the people are paying the price.
:
That's extremely unfortunate, because not only is public transit a good way to reduce our greenhouse gas emissions, but it's also a way to reduce traffic congestion and improve the quality of life of all people, whom you also represent, Mr. Tremblay.
Mr. Viau, there has been a lot of talk in recent years about electrifying transportation. People are obviously investing heavily in the battery sector, and we're very pleased that the road fleet has gone electric.
However, you raised the issue of electric bikes.
French engineer Jean‑Marc Jancovici, who is very involved in the whole energy transition issue, tells us that 80% of people travel five to 10 kilometres in urban centres. Of course, that doesn't apply to remote areas. He says that the best electric vehicle is an electric bike, because that's exactly what we need.
What's your game plan to encourage people to purchase and use electric bikes?
:
Just on the subject of Via Rail, better WiFi would make a big difference.
You're right about electric-assist bikes. Countless car trips could be replaced by bike trips.
We are currently running an awareness-raising program called Vélovolt. We work with businesses so they can give their employees a chance to test electric-assist bikes and trial this mode of transportation for a month. I suggest you visit our website to find out more. That might be something the House of Commons could consider.
We're already making e‑bikes available to businesses and their employees. They try them, and many continue to use them after the program. The waiting list for companies that want to participate in the program is very long. I believe municipalities are participating too. It works very well, and people want it.
E‑bikes are expensive, though. That's why we offer this program, which is geared to income. We don't want to subsidize people who earn enough money to buy one of these bikes on their own.
Programs that offer incentives for buying electric cars aren't geared to income.
:
Yes, this investment is a step in the right direction, but the disparity between supply and demand in the housing market is so significant that it will be difficult to resolve.
That's why all partners have to work together to find solutions and speed up construction.
Various macroeconomic factors are contributing to the slowdown too. Higher interest rates, for example, have a significant impact.
There's one more thing I'd like to add. Right now, a lot of municipal infrastructure is operating at capacity. We may want to build new housing, but there's no money to update things like water and wastewater infrastructure. That means we can't build more homes in some places.
We want to move forward and build more, but there has to be enough money for municipal infrastructure to support new housing. Right now that's a challenge.
:
As you know, under the TECQ program, municipalities are required to develop infrastructure action plans. Honestly, I think that in Quebec, we should move this idea forward so that cities can better plan measures for their territory. I agree with you on that.
In addition, once the plans have been made, funding must be secured. On that score, the clock is ticking.
I'll say it again: If all the cities submit proposals for 2024, you have to understand that costs will rise considerably, in a context where there is a labour shortage.
The message from the municipal world today is that the federal government must come to a swift agreement with the Government of Quebec and the municipalities. They are in dire need of funding.
There needs to be predictability. It's a bit like money for housing construction, where agreements are made every year, or every two or three years. If there's no predictability for cities, how do you expect them to be able to apply to a program and then plan housing measures with community organizations? They always have to wait for decisions to be made at higher levels. The municipality is the final level of government, so to speak.
If you could provide a little more predictability, that would be a great help to the municipal world, I guarantee you.
With respect to individuals, for example, the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation plays a major role in reducing, if not virtually eliminating, the risk of anything that can be described as an insured loan. It eliminates the risk faced by financial institutions. It's also what makes it possible to obtain better financing conditions.
As for rental housing construction, CMHC does indeed have some interesting programs. They could possibly go a little further. For example, the latest program to be launched, called APH Select, offers amortization of up to 50 years under certain conditions, which is interesting. If that could become a little more standard in the products offered by CMHC, that would be good.
The issuance of Canada mortgage bonds is another positive initiative. It allows access to funds at a lower cost. These funds can then be loaned for residential construction at lower costs than those charged by financial institutions.
:
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
I will once again address the representatives of the Union des municipalités du Québec.
I'd like to address the issue of the conditions that the federal government often attaches to the funds it releases. Obviously, this slows down access to these funds. These conditions are not always appreciated by people in the field, I think.
Also, I'd like to know your opinion on the TECQ. Some mayors have told me that they'd like to be able to use this program, but for purposes other than those set out in this framework. So there needs to be greater openness and flexibility in the use of funds.
I'd like to hear your comments on these two issues.
:
I'll answer your second question first.
Mr. Roy, you'll tell me if I'm wrong, but I seem to recall that 20% of the TECQ performance grant can be used for a project of a more municipal nature, such as a community centre. I don't believe that the UMQ, which I represent today, has taken a position on this issue. On the other hand, as we've been saying all along, the municipal world certainly needs a diversity of programs. Consequently, new programs should be created that would respond more to other realities.
To answer your question indirectly, let's say that, if the municipal world is considering using the TECQ, which is intended for investment in underground infrastructure, differently, it's because in reality, we have a lot of catching up to do. On the other hand, it also shows how little room for manoeuvre the municipal world has. So we sometimes try to be imaginative. Let's be honest, investing in pipes isn't really fashionable. People would much rather have a nice community centre or a beautiful brand-new arena.
As I mentioned earlier, the federal government has made massive cuts to all sports and recreation programs. In the municipal world, we're trying to put forward projects and ideas that relate a little more to what's being asked of us in the field. But we have no room for manoeuvre. So investing massively in sports and leisure programs could give that opportunity to local governments.
As the chair knows, I make it a practice of getting out of my echo chamber, as they say, to ask a question of a panellist who perhaps traditionally wouldn't get questions from a Conservative.
Mr. Viau, this is a question for you.
I'm going to give you a bit of personal information about me. Before I got on my flight, I was feverishly working to repair my washing machine, and I did it because—I'll be honest with you—I'm cheap. I replaced the drainage pump on it.
I'm a bit skeptical of a government organization, because with the government comes costs and there are inspectors and stuff like that. Would you be open to the idea of an industry-led repair index?
Thank you, Ms. Desbiens.
[English]
I can't think of a better way to start our cross-country tour than being here in Quebec City in la belle province, except, MP Paul-Hus, if we were here in February for Carnaval and if we had more time. However, it has been great. We've have two excellent panels of expert witnesses to provide testimony for our pre-budget consultations.
On behalf of the finance committee, we want to thank you for your time and your expertise as we get ready for our report and, of course, for budget 2024.
I want to wish everybody an excellent afternoon. Thank you.