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Welcome to meeting number 60 of the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development.
Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of June 23, 2022. Members are attending in person in the room as well as remotely using Zoom.
I'd like to make a few comments for the benefit of the members.
Please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. For those who are participating by video conference, click on the microphone icon to activate your mike. Please mute yourselves when you are not speaking.
Interpretation for those on Zoom is at the bottom of your screen. You have a choice of floor, English or French audio. For those in the room, on the other hand, you can use the earpiece and select the desired channel.
I'll remind you that all comments should be addressed through the chair.
Pursuant to the order of reference of Wednesday, November 16, 2022, the committee now resumes consideration of Bill , an act to amend the Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development Act, the Justice for Victims of Corrupt Foreign Officials Act (Sergei Magnitsky Law), the Broadcasting Act and the Prohibiting Cluster Munitions Act.
It is my pleasure to once again welcome officials who are here to support us as we consider clause-by-clause for Bill .
From the Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development, we're grateful to once again have Ms. Ashlyn Milligan, deputy director, non-proliferation and disarmament. We also have Ms. Jennifer Keeling, acting executive director, human rights and indigenous affairs.
From the Department of Canadian Heritage, we're grateful to once again have Ms. Amy Awad, senior director, marketplace and legislative policy.
Finally, from the Department of National Defence, we have Major-General Paul Prévost, director of staff, strategic joint staff, who is kindly and graciously joining us via Zoom.
I will open the floor in relation to the subamendment to G-2, which was under consideration when we last adjourned debate, on Thursday, April 20, 2023.
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We're dealing with the same text that we were dealing with the last time. It relates to the Broadcasting Act, amended by adding the following under subsection 22(1):
Restriction—broadcasting undertakings subject to influence
There would then be a deletion of the word “amended” in the first line and an insertion after “foreign programming, that is”. The insertion is:
—despite any measure that the Commission could take under this Part—
It continues with the original text, “vulnerable to being” adding, “significantly influenced”. The term “significantly” is added.
The rest of the text remains intact.
In terms of motivating this, there are a number of points that are important.
One is that the language removes the term “amended”, which is actually a salutary piece of language because it allows for the problem to be rectified through an amendment to the actual documents in question. Therefore the problem would be solved.
Two is that, with respect to the renewal or the issuance of a licence, the CRTC has other supervisory regulatory powers. The insertion of “despite any measure that the Commission could take under this Part” would acknowledge that the CRTC already has embedded in it some measures that allow for the problem that we're addressing here to be solved. It simply acknowledges that that there are internal mechanisms.
Three, the term “significantly” is an important addition to the text that's already there, because the influence that we are looking at should be significant. We need to have a measure around this and not have a minor influence being the threshold. There should be a significant influence that is a threshold with respect to this act.
This doesn't take away from anything that Mr. Lawrence is putting forth. This simply tightens it up a little and makes it clearer. It keeps the full spirit of what Mr. Lawrence is bringing forth with respect to legislation in this particular section.
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Dear Mr. Chair and honourable members of Parliament, thank you for the opportunity to address you today.
In August, when I was addressing the committee, we were discussing energy security as winter was approaching. There were a lot of concerns on how we in Europe—not just in Ukraine—would get through the winter. This was really a very hard winter for Ukraine.
From October 10, Russia carried out over 33 massive missile and drone attacks on energy infrastructure, with about 70% intercepted by Ukraine. We had blackouts, massive destruction of our electricity grids, and days without power, gas and heating during the cold winter. The deadliest air strikes were on residential buildings, including in Dnipro, Kyiv and Zaporizhzhya. Over $411 billion U.S. in damage was assessed by the World Bank.
Now, though, it's spring, and we are extremely grateful for the robust support of the Canadian Parliament, the government and the people of Canada. We appreciate the strong cross-partisan stance in Parliament in supporting Ukraine through this barbaric war. Canada's support has made a difference.
A total of $450 million Canadian helped the Government of Ukraine procure gas and supply heating to Ukrainian families. Another $115 million Canadian donated to the World Bank helped us to rebuild damaged electricity grids and supply power. Five billion dollars in loans to the Ukrainian government helped us to finance pensions and social supports for IDPs and other vulnerable people.
Demining equipment donated by Canada is helping to clear our streets and fields of Russian mines. Support with other partners of the grain from Ukraine initiative secured the over 170 million tonnes of Ukrainian grain delivered to countries in the global south. NASAMS is among the most advanced air defence systems in the world, and Canada committed to supply this to Ukraine to protect our cities and to protect the lives of our people.
We are grateful to members of the committee for your steadfast support of Ukraine during more than a year of this full-scale invasion; for your political support and the adoption of the motion to name the crimes committed by Russia as a genocide against Ukrainian people; for the call to designate the Wagner Group as a terrorist organization; your recommendations in the report; and your political standing in different arenas, including the international one.
Crimes of aggression, war crimes and genocide: All of these horrific crimes require justice. Ukrainian law enforcement agencies are investigating over 80,000 war crimes, including the killing of 10,100 civilians, among them 470 children. More than 19,500 Ukrainian children were illegally deported to Russia. Unfortunately, only 328 of them were returned home. According to the evidence, they were forced to learn the Russian language and Russian-revised history, and many were filmed for Russian propaganda campaigns.
Justice for these crimes is necessary, not only for families who lost their loved ones. It will also serve the critical interest of global justice to prevent future crimes and other dictators like Putin from committing them again.
We are grateful to Canada for the important contribution to the ICC in investigating the war crimes, including those against women and children. A global arrest warrant issued by the ICC for Putin and his so-called commissioner for children's rights is a first important step on our way to justice. We value Canada's participation in the core group that is working on the establishment of a special international tribunal on the crime of aggression, which is aimed at bringing Putin and his close circle to accountability.
Russia has already strategically failed in Ukraine. It failed to take control of Kyiv as it assumed it would in the first weeks of the war. It failed to break the morale of Ukrainians during the attacks on critical infrastructure that deprived us of heat and electricity. It failed to sustain its attempts at offensive operations this year.
It failed to break unity among the partners. On the contrary, with Finland's accession to NATO and with Sweden on the way, Russian invasions strengthened the Euro-Atlantic alliance. It will be even stronger with Ukraine joining NATO, and we expect Canada's strong stance welcoming Ukraine's application to NATO. The Vilnius summit will be an important platform for this very necessary decision of the alliance.
Russia has also failed to break Ukraine’s spirit. Ninety-five per cent of Ukrainians believe there will be victory on the battlefield. According to recent polls, 87% support Ukraine joining NATO, and 87% support Ukraine joining the EU. The sanctions imposed on Russia are working and depriving Russia not only of money to wage war but also of the possibility to produce weapons on a large scale. We must increase the pressure of sanctions, including those on the nuclear sector. We need to keep strict control and prevent sanctions circumventions.
As well, frozen Russian foreign money and the money of Russian sanctioned oligarchs needs to be seized. REPO, which is the special working group on the sanctions, has already blocked 58 billion dollars' worth of Russian sanctioned assets. Next steps need to taken.
On the military side, the heaviest fighting today is around Bakhmut. Since January, Russia has been taking enormous losses in forces and heavy weapons in its attempts to capture the town. The city of 70,000 people has been almost completely destroyed by Russian bombs and artillery. It is literally a pile of rubble, but we are holding and we are fighting. Russia is constantly attacking by air, and that’s why it is crucial that we have the air defence systems and the fighter jets to protect the whole territory of Ukraine.
As of today, the length of the active front line is 1,300 kilometres. That’s roughly the length of the Canada-U.S. border along Alberta, Saskatchewan and Manitoba combined. Our brave men and women on the front line continue to fight, including those 35,000 who have been trained by the Unifier program. I would like to thank all the Canadian instructors for their dedication in training Ukrainian forces. I would also like to thank you for your contribution to the military support that Ukraine is receiving from all the allies: Canadian Leopard tanks, armoured vehicles, artillery, artillery shells, drones and much more. This is an important investment in our victory, and also in Euro-Atlantic security.
Further counteroffensive operations will be successful, with well-equipped Ukrainian forces backed by tanks, armoured vehicles, artillery, ammunition, air defence and fighter jets. The multi-year program of military support for Ukraine in Canada and among our other allies will help to ramp up defence production and secure needed military equipment.
On a final note, I would also like to comment on another front—Russia's attempts to tackle our unity through disinformation. Unlike tanks, guns and missiles, this massive weapon is not always clearly seen. Russian disinformation campaigns not only focus on propaganda and undermining support for Ukraine but also challenge institutions, basic values and democracy itself. More often, they are meant simply to sow dissension, to divide people, because when allies are divided, it is tougher for them to forge a common resolve against an external threat. Now more than ever it is important to recognize those threats and address them.
Honourable members of Parliament, Ukraine is grateful for your leadership, your voice and your efforts to stand against the horror of a Russian full-scale invasion and all the horror it has brought to our country. We value your steadfast and cross-partisan support of Ukraine, fighting for our freedom and for democracy. There is no better way to promote our joint values today than by defending them together.
Thank you.
Your Excellency, thank you for being here. Ukraine is not just fighting for itself; it is on the front lines of a fight for the security of the entire free world, so I want to thank you and all the people of Ukraine for your heroic courage in this fight. We must be with you for as long as it takes.
I also want to recognize, as you did, the fact that the last time you were here, we were discussing the issue of the Gazprom turbine waiver. You encouraged us to revoke that waiver. Members of all three opposition parties sought to put pressure on the government, and the government did, eventually, reverse course on that.
Thank you for the role you played in that process. I think it shows that a strong parliamentary democracy, in which opposition parties can use the tools we have to put pressure on the government to make actions match rhetoric, is certainly very important.
There are a number of themes I want to hammer through as quickly as I can. First, could you provide us with some specific information on Ukraine's military hardware needs and what else Canada could be doing in terms of supplying critically needed military hardware?
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In terms of the military support, there are five or six priorities where Canada has already stepped in. However, the reality on the battlefield is that we need more. We value Canada's joining the tank coalition. We value the Leopard tanks that have been already delivered to Europe and hopefully will soon be delivered to Ukraine. It's important.
We also need artillery. Artillery is something that will definitely be needed for the counteroffensive operation, as Russia still prevails in the ability to fight.
The second thing is the air defence. Since the very first day of this full-scale invasion, Russia has had dominance in the air. You'll remember that the first message from Ukraine was, “Close the sky.” We understand now that the reality in closing the sky is to help us with the air defence. Ukraine is looking for NATO standard fighter jets. That is important to protect the cities and the infrastructure.
We went through the hard winter with massive missile attacks throughout all of the country. I would put armoured vehicles and tanks as the main priorities.
Also, I would like to stress that what is now happening with our other NATO partners includes planning for the long term. The defence stocks in many of the countries are running out. Ramping up defence production, both to increase those security challenges to our partners and also to be able to help Ukraine, requires more mid- and long-term planning. The long-term programs of support, and as a consequence also ramping up the defence sector and defence production—which also creates more jobs in these countries—are very important as we look at it strategically.
The next question I want to ask is about the impact of some of the comments that the President of France is making. I've been quite concerned about those comments, especially about China and Taiwan. The unity of western nations has been critical in the last 18 months. We should stand together in defence of the international rules-based order, instead of seeing attempts to cut side deals.
Our view is that Ukraine must achieve victory on its own terms, that allies must support Ukraine for as long as necessary, and that any negotiations with the potential for concessions by Ukraine should be up to the Ukrainian people, through their democratic representatives, to deliberate and decide on, without external pressure.
I also see that asking Xi Jinping to help make peace between Russia and Ukraine makes about as much sense as it would have made to ask Hirohito to negotiate the future of Alsace-Lorraine.
I wonder if you have any comments about what Macron has been talking about in terms of China, and then also about other feelers or proposals regarding peace negotiations from other western European states.
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The first time President Zelenskyy talked about the peace formula was at the G20 summit, and then it was the UN General Assembly that made the resolution.
What Ukraine offered to every country was a peace plan that is actually is based on international rules and order. This is the basis for what Ukraine offered to all of the countries to work on, and Ukraine is open to many of the countries to join in working together on this peace plan.
We are open and encouraged, and we are grateful to Canada for supporting the efforts of this peace plan, along with many other countries. I would say that Ukraine wants a very stable but also a very fair peace. All of the negotiations that could come to the different platforms need to stick to the basic principles: respect of the sovereign country, respect of the sovereign borders, and justice, because without justice, we cannot be assured that it will not be repeated.
It needs to exclude food security, because food security is not only an issue with Ukraine. It's also a global issue, which we have already faced. There's also what's now happening with the grain initiative, which is once again at risk. Nuclear security is important for everybody, as is countering ecocide, because that is also happening in Ukraine.
Ukraine set the important milestones on what we feel needs to be restored. That platform is open for discussion, but it is precisely based on this recognized principle of the UN Charter.
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Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
It's very nice to see you again. Thank you very much for being here, Ambassador, and sharing this update with us.
Obviously, we all wish that this was not necessary and that the Ukrainian people had won the war already and were able to continue on with their lives. I also want to thank you for helping me arrange some meetings when I was in Ukraine earlier this year. That's one of the things I wanted to talk about a bit. As you know, I was able to visit Irpin and see some of the really horrific devastation that has been done to what is very clearly civilian infrastructure. The destruction of a playground is something I will never, ever forget in my entire life. The violence that has been done to civilians is such a clear indication of war crimes, such a clear indication of genocide.
One of the things I also saw in Kyiv—and we talked about this—is that Ukrainians are living their lives. They are continuing to be strong in the face of what Russia is doing. When I spoke to the First Deputy Prime Minister of Ukraine, she mentioned the idea that Ukraine is trying to rebuild. It's trying to rebuild these communities. One of the ways Canada can help is by helping to provide insurance to Canadian companies that are, in fact, interested in working in Ukraine but perhaps can't take on that risk.
Can you talk about the ways Canada could help Ukraine rebuild at this time?
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Thank you for visiting Ukraine and taking the opportunity to see all the horror and damage the war has brought. Just a few weeks ago, the World Bank published an assessment of the damage to Ukraine—it now exceeds $411 billion. That is huge. Of course, Ukraine will need help rebuilding. Russian frozen sovereign assets and the assets of Russian oligarchs need to be channelled to finance the rebuilding of Ukraine. Also, the private sector, with its technology and with its capacity, needs to help with the rebuilding of Ukraine.
We had our Prime Minister visit Canada two weeks ago, and we were talking with the private sector about involvement in the rebuilding. This rebuilding is already happening. Rebuilding happens a maximum two hours after a missile hits the power grids, for example, because we need to restore them. We have no time to wait until the war ends. We need to rebuild schools. We need to rebuild them so that the children can go underground when there are air raids and continue their classes. We need to rebuild schools, hospitals and all of the other infrastructure, including over 35,000 homes that were completely destroyed.
For the private sector to enter, war risk insurance is crucially important. We've started to work with institutions like the World Bank's MIGA, but also with the expert credit agencies throughout G7 countries and the world to find this instrument, to secure the so-called war risks for the private sector so that it can have more clarity and insurance about entering Ukraine.
Also, I would like to mention one example of how during wartime, the Canadian private sector is stepping into a strategic partnership with Ukraine. An agreement was signed, witnessed by our Prime Minister who was here in Canada, with one of the biggest Canadian companies that produces uranium. That uranium will be supplied to produce fuel and will replace Russian nuclear fuel in all of the nuclear power stations in Ukraine. This is an example of building a strategic partnership between our companies and others from the private sector. It was widely mentioned during the meeting with Prime Minister Shmyhal and the private sector that they want to see these supporting instruments in order to de-risk their activities in Ukraine.
[English]
Your Excellency, thank you for returning to our committee. It is always a pleasure to gain your perspective and to of course thank you as well for all of the work you are doing here in Canada and in Ukraine.
I have only a short amount of time. I would like to pick up on some of your opening comments with respect to sanctions.
You mentioned that the impact of sanctions has been significant. I believe the figure you cited was that $58 billion has been blocked from Russia. One particular area that has gained some attention is around sanctions on fertilizer. As you know, Canada imposed a 35% tariff on Russian fertilizer at the very beginning of the Russian invasion.
Unfortunately, the Conservative Party put forward a motion in the House of Commons to remove those sanctions on fertilizer. Our government has preferred to stand up to Russia, to keep those sanctions in place and to support farmers by investing in them to help diversify away from Russian sanctions.
I'd like to hear your view about the importance of those sanctions on Russian fertilizer, but also on what you're hearing from other allies—including perhaps in the global south—about the possibility of other countries imposing similar sanctions.
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I think now it's all too obvious that the forceful deportation of Ukrainian children is not the only thing we have been talking about. Now we have the global arrest warrant for Putin and the so-called Russian ombudsman for children for illegal deportation and illegal abduction of Ukrainian children. Unfortunately, over 19,000 Ukrainian children were forcefully deported.
The horror is that many of them have parents in Ukraine or grandparents from Ukraine. There was a horrific story just three weeks ago. A grandmother went to Russia to take her child back, and she died there. These are the stories that are happening.
These children are brought throughout all of the country. Unfortunately, we're trying to get as much information and track as much as possible to know where our children are and to bring them back. However, we've managed to bring only 328 of them back. This is the horror of many mothers, fathers and relatives. It's not only orphans; every child matters for us.
This is the war crime that the ICC is investigating. The support for ICC in this is important. It is important to work with us to find ways that we can bring these children back.
On sexual violence, there are also many criminal cases we are investigating. Also, one thing that we will need support on, especially having this big capability in Canada, is with mental health. A lot of people, including those who have gone through sexual crimes, need to have proper treatment. We, as Ukraine, are seeking to get the best knowledge, experience and protocols on how we can help people and the women who have gone through sexual crimes—there are also many others who have gone through the horror of the war—to get better through mental health care.
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The Russian invasion did exactly the opposite of what Russia was trying to achieve. Europe is more united. Ukraine now officially has the status of a candidate for EU membership, doing its homework in a speedy way, I would say, to meet the standards and requirements to be an EU member, the same as we will do for NATO. It brings the dialogue between the EU and Ukraine to a totally different level.
For example, in February we had the EU-Ukraine summit. It was in Kyiv, and most of the commissioners were coming to Ukraine and seeing on the ground..., understanding both the need for Ukraine to defend itself—because we are all defending Europe, the security of Europe—and a lot of things that are happening in our integration, whether it's the digital infrastructure, whether it's logistics, whether it's industry, whether it's standards. Our path is now officially that of a candidate for EU membership. We're more closely co-operating with both the EU countries and the European Union itself on our path to the EU. That brings a lot of collaboration, a lot of joint groups on proceeding quickly on this integration.
I would also like to say that Ukraine also has the EU as a part of its bigger foreign agenda, because Ukraine is not stopping doing its homework during the war. Historically, for the first time, a country that is in an active fight for itself—Ukraine—has a four-year program with the International Monetary Fund, which on one side provides funding to Ukraine and on the other side is a path to structural reform. The government is committed and is doing this.
That has brought unity. Of course, there are some issues that can happen from time to time that the countries of the European Union and Ukraine are discussing. However, we have a totally different feeling in terms of co-operation.