:
I call this meeting to order.
Welcome to meeting number 111 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Indigenous and Northern Affairs.
I want to start by recognizing that we are meeting on the ancestral and unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe peoples and express gratitude that we're able to do the important work of this committee on lands that they've stewarded since time immemorial.
Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted on Wednesday, April 10, 2024, the committee is meeting to continue its study on “Report 2, Housing in First Nations Communities” of the 2024 reports of the Auditor General of Canada.
Before I begin, I would like to ask that all members and other in-person participants consult the cards on the table for guidelines to prevent audio feedback incidents. Please take note of the following preventative measures in place to protect the health and safety of all participants, including the interpreters. Only use a black, approved earpiece. The former gray earpieces must no longer be used. Keep your earpiece away from all microphones at all times. When you're not using your earpiece, place it face down on the sticker placed on the table for this purpose.
Thank you to all for your co-operation.
Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format. In accordance with the committee's routine motion concerning connection tests for witnesses, I am informing the committee that all witnesses have completed the required connection tests in advance of this meeting, and I hope, Mr. Lemire, that your connection will be sufficient to get going.
With that, I would like to welcome our witnesses today. We have the Honourable Patty Hajdu, Minister of Indigenous Services; and the Honourable Sean Fraser, Minister of Housing, Infrastructure and Communities. They are accompanied by, from the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation, Nadine Leblanc; and, from the Department of Indigenous Services, Candice St-Aubin.
Ministers, you will each have the floor for five minutes starting with Minister Hajdu.
:
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Thank you very much to the committee for having me back yet again. I think it's my third time in the last few weeks, and it's a joy to be with you here on the unceded and unsurrendered territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe.
I am hoping that, the next time I come back, we will be talking about the clean water act. The first nations clean water act is a very important piece of legislation that this committee will have the privilege of studying, and the AFN and other parties have been very clear. They're asking all parties to move quickly to get the bill to committee so that we can listen to witnesses. I hope that we will not see continued blockage of this bill by any party, because this is a deeply important piece of legislation to many first nations across the country.
[Translation]
That said, let's talk about the Auditor General's report, which shows how important it is to partner with first nations.
This is not a new problem. It's a problem that far too many indigenous people have experienced their entire lives. It is the result of decades of colonialism and oppression, and proves an important point: Racism is costly.
Today, the bill for the infrastructure deficit is $350 billion. Let's be clear: Progress is being made, but the problem won't be resolved overnight. It's going to take an effort on the part of all levels of government, organizations and private companies.
[English]
We have to do away with the archaic, one-size-fits-all systems that are often in place. They are not only deeply insulting to first nations, but they simply don't work. We all remember the paternalistic $300-million fund that the oversaw when he was minister. That program did not work, either. It got exactly 99 homes built on reserve for $300 million.
This is why first nations' housing solutions must be developed by or co-developed with first nations themselves and they must be flexible so they can meet the specific needs of each community.
That's what the national first nations housing and related infrastructure strategy is all about. It was co-developed with the AFN, the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation and first nations across Canada. It's a clear contrast with the paternalistic approach. It will get us closer to a Canada where first nations also have a safe place to rest, to raise their children and to reach their full potential.
Recently, I was in Lytton First Nation. They're making giant steps in rebuilding after a devastating wildfire. With new funding, 20 homes are being fast-tracked and they plan to build over 175 homes over the next decade. This is no coincidence. Indeed, since we took office in 2015, Liberals increased targeted funding and housing by 1,100% and budget 2024 adds another $1 billion.
Equally important, the tools that we're developing together with first nations people are restoring control of housing back to communities. We've supported the First Nations Housing Professionals Association to train people on project management, construction planning, tenant relations and renovation coordination. They've certified 48 housing professionals. They have an additional 151 people in training and this is to build housing capacity in first nations communities across the country.
I saw that in action in Lytton. In fact, they said the speed at which they've been able to develop the division and get the infrastructure in place so the housing could be put into place for families who lost their homes in that devastating wildfire was because of internal capacity within the community.
The difference between the Liberal approach and the Conservative attitude is clear. Conservatives are stuck in paternalistic thinking, combined with a spin of austerity.
On our end, we focus on closing the gap through partnership and mutual respect. It's the right thing to do in the spirit of reconciliation, but it's also the only approach that works. It's the only way that we can ensure a fairer future and a fairer Canada for indigenous peoples.
Meegwetch. Thank you.
Colleagues, I am pleased to be here to discuss the important issue of housing for indigenous and northern communities. This issue is important not only for the government, but also for the entire country.
[English]
I want to say thanks so much for having me.
It's clear that Canada's experiencing a housing crisis and that crisis is felt disproportionately by indigenous communities across Canada. When I hear about the challenges and when I speak with those who are most impacted, they tell me stories of overcrowding in their communities and of risks to health that can manifest as a result of that overcrowding. They tell me about a seeming lack of understanding of those of us who come from the south about the challenges when it comes to the actual process of building in Canada's north.
We see a disproportionate representation of indigenous peoples amongst homeless Canadians.
It's essential that we acknowledge where we are if we're going to get where we want to be.
We've seen over the course of Canada's history a lack of investment that would be necessary to actually close the gap when it comes to the housing needs amongst indigenous peoples in this country and everyone else. The housing crisis, over the course of the past year or so, has really captured the attention of Canadians, but I think there's still insufficient light being shone upon the extraordinary needs of indigenous communities across Canada.
We've taken a step in a new direction—
:
Can you confirm the translation's working?
[Translation]
I'm getting a thumbs-up, so I'll continue.
[English]
We took a step in a new direction a number of years ago, not only with a significant increase in funding, as Minister Hajdu described, but also by more and more ensuring that we are empowering indigenous communities and indigenous leaders to take decisions about the investments that will support indigenous communities.
I see Mr. Battiste from Nova Scotia here. This approach in other areas has delivered immense dividends. I'm thinking of the education reforms that were put in place a number of years ago in Nova Scotia that dramatically increased graduation rates when decision-making power over the education system was put in the hands of indigenous communities.
We aim to do more of that with the distinctions-based approach that we've taken toward new funding with $4 billion behind it to build out more housing in communities. With the approach to urban, rural and northern communities, it's going to, again, work with distinctions-based organizations but also with an indigenous-led centre that will help make decisions about where the funding goes.
It's not enough to just change the process. You actually have to back these programs up with serious money.
As Minister Hajdu indicated, we've seen a 1,100% increase in the total funding going to initiatives specifically for indigenous housing. This also comes through programs that may involve bilateral agreements with other levels of government that make investments directly in communities. It would include affordable housing initiatives through the affordable housing fund or the rapid housing initiative. About 40% of the investments have gone to support indigenous housing initiatives. We've seen significant uptake of the housing accelerator fund with partners that lead indigenous communities.
These investments are starting to make a difference, but I'm not here to tell you that the problem has been solved. I'm here to tell you that we need to continue to do more. With consistent and predictable investments, we'll be able to create an ecosystem where we are doing a better job of meeting the demands that dramatically and disproportionately impact indigenous communities. We have more work to do to ensure that we not only meet the housing needs but also create opportunities for indigenous communities to realize the economic benefits by actually delivering on those housing needs.
I think of the conversations I had in Iqaluit when I was visiting MP Idlout in her community where we heard loud and clear that, despite the fact that there are significant investments going to Canada's north for housing as compared to years past, many of the economic benefits go to the companies that provide goods and services from the south. We have continuous learning opportunities. However, we have to take our lead from those who are most impacted. I'm looking forward, in the months and years ahead, to increasing the pace of delivery and the understanding of how the federal government can support indigenous communities in meeting the housing needs to bring to an end the housing crisis that they have been living through for far too many years.
Thank you. It's a pleasure to be with you.
:
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Ministers, for being here today.
Minister Fraser, you just mentioned your desire to keep doing more. However, this is the fourth Auditor General's report on indigenous housing, and there has been little to no improvement, according to the report.
Where are the homes you promised?
:
Thank you. I respected my colleague while he was speaking.
Mr. Jamie Schmale: Will I get that time back?
The Chair: You still have another [Inaudible—Editor].
Hon. Sean Fraser: I would appreciate it if he would return the professional courtesy.
He suggested that we don't have a plan. We literally published a plan in April of this year. He may think it's foreign, because the plan he put forward as a party has no measures in it that will actually build more homes.
Mr. Jamie Schmale: So—
Hon. Sean Fraser: With respect, we have—
:
First, with respect to the issue of targets, the targets outlined in the national housing strategy under our bilateral agreements and affordable housing investments have delivered more units than were set out as a goal at the outset. But we need to do more, as I've mentioned repeatedly. We have broadcast a series of measures in the recent housing plan that are going to increase the investments. The Conservatives seem to struggle with the idea that you should set a target that's going to solve a problem, not one that your measures are going to lead to anyway.
As a final comment, because I expect I'm going to run out of time, during the last exchange I should point out that when one of the members said something about what I was talking about, the questioner said it was “nonsense”.
Investment in housing for indigenous peoples in this country is not nonsense. It may appear that way, given the questions today and the history of the Conservative Party, but for the record, the government takes a different view.
Ministers, thank you for joining us today. It's a very important topic for me and a very important topic for my constituents. In my previous life, I had the honour of being the housing minister for the Government of the Northwest Territories. I've been looking at the issue of housing for many years. I can tell you that for a long time we've been in a housing crisis.
Minister Fraser, you mentioned that we have a crisis on our hands. That crisis has been there for many years. During the time of the Conservative Party being in power, virtually zero dollars were coming for indigenous housing. Now we have two streams of funding coming to the Northwest Territories: Indigenous Services Canada money and CMHC money. We're still in a crisis, except we're in a crisis with a little bit of light shining through the tunnel. For the first time in our history, we have indigenous housing money coming to the Northwest Territories.
We also have CMHC programs that are being tapped into by our communities. From our smallest communities, such as Nahanni Butte, to our largest centre of Yellowknife, they're accessing the housing accelerator fund and putting up houses through the rapid housing program and homelessness investments. It's very good to see all that investment coming to the Northwest Territories, but of course we have to do more. I would really like to see the two streams of funding continue.
The Auditor General's report that we're talking about today doesn't cover housing in the Northwest Territories' indigenous communities. It only focuses on first nations south of 60. That is very disappointing to me, because information and statistics are very important when it comes to budgeting. I raised it with the Auditor General. I understand that the Auditor General will be reviewing housing in the Northwest Territories and will be looking at the territorial housing agency. It sounds like it will happen later on this year. I look forward to reading her office's findings.
My question to both you, as ministers, is this: Can you discuss how ISC and CMHC, respectively, are working directly with indigenous governments and organizations in the Northwest Territories to address the housing needs of their communities?
:
Well, thank you very much, MP McLeod, and thanks for your ongoing advocacy for northern communities, especially in the Northwest Territories. You're right: The Auditor General's audit didn't look at first nations communities in Northwest Territories or the other territories because almost all of on-reserve first nations communities are located in the provinces, so I'm glad you had a chance to speak with her about how to get that data from northern communities, which are self-governing in many cases.
I think what we've learned, especially through emergency management, is that we need to work more closely with the territories. Quite frankly, the experience I had last summer supporting K'atl'odeeche—as you know, during the crisis they were experiencing resulting from the wildfire, and feeling really unheard, in many ways, by the territory at that particular time—informed us of the work we can do to support the territories in their obligation to meet the housing needs of self-governing people and to work with self-governing first nations to result in more housing.
The good news is that there was an announcement on January 18, 2024, that CMHC provided almost $19 million more to support building 54 homes in indigenous communities in the Northwest Territories. You can see that this idea that we need to work more closely with self-governing first nations, and with first nations that are in territories, is starting to percolate throughout departments.
Maybe I can turn to Minister Fraser to talk about CMHC and that evolution.
:
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
For a change, I am speaking to you this morning from Montreal, where I am attending the 2024 annual Grand Economic Circle of Indigenous People and Quebec. It is funded in part by Indigenous Services Canada, but so far, I haven't seen any participants from the federal government.
Several basic points have been raised, including one that brought to mind the topic we're discussing this morning. One of the speakers emphasized the importance of reducing the gap between first nations and people in the rest of the country in terms of economic wealth. That gap is particularly acute when it comes to housing construction.
Mr. Fraser, what are you committed to doing to close the gap between wealthier indigenous communities and those that do not have the capacity to build as quickly as others?
:
Thank you for the question.
It is very important that indigenous communities and other communities be on an equal footing. There is no simple answer, but first of all, the situation could be improved by increasing investments in communities that do not have the necessary resources. That is why we're going to create funds to support those communities and give them the powers to make their own decisions.
[English]
It's not okay to have an “Ottawa knows best” attitude in many of these circumstances. Communities tend to know their needs, and we have to put resources on the table.
At the same time, this is a broader conversation, perhaps, about increasing resources and creating opportunities for success within communities by partnering not just on housing projects but also on other endeavours. For example, in my home province, a new opportunity to create an equity stake in green battery storage for Mi'kmaq communities is going to create additional financial resources.
It's a combination of setting the table for success and making the investments necessary to help play catch-up at the risk of dramatically oversimplifying a very complex challenge.
:
Thank you, Minister Hajdu. You just anticipated one of the questions I was going to ask about the expertise that is being developed by and for indigenous people as part of the Yänonhchia' initiative.
I want to come back to housing construction. One of the things that is absolutely shocking, in my opinion, is the fact that the funding allows communities to build only two housing units a year. With the baby boom that these communities are experiencing, two housing units a year do not meet their needs. We will need to step outside the box.
There is another problem I would like to hear your comments on, Minister Fraser. What are you going to do about the standards that are required within indigenous communities? These communities do not have the same capacity to apply these standards as a traditionally white city, if I may use that expression, particularly a large city.
When it comes to indigenous funding, standards are required and time frames are very short. Often, within a two-year period, the architectural plans and specifications are required, as are the documents for the water system connections, and then construction has to start. These time frames are not realistic. As a result, grand announcements of billions of dollars are made when budgets are tabled, but in many cases, a large part of that money, around $8 billion, goes back into government coffers, into the consolidated revenue fund. That money isn't being spent on indigenous people.
How do you pledge to resolve this situation in a lasting way?
:
Thank you for the question.
[English]
The first stage for me is to not exclusively have programs that are driven by decisions made in Ottawa.
One, putting the resources in the hands of communities that know their priorities is an essential ingredient if we're going to actually solve some of these problems.
Two, we need to continue increasing the resources that are going to solve the problem if we're going to achieve meaningful progress, but it's even more complicated than you've laid out in your question. Some of the nuances require us to understand that building housing in indigenous communities is different and more expensive, in many instances, than it can be in other communities.
Take Canada's north, for example, where you're dealing not only with challenging construction seasons but with a need to understand that a sea-lift here only allows you to deliver the supplies to build houses during certain portions of the year.
Engaging directly with communities and empowering them to make decisions about how those resources will be administered will deliver a far greater understanding of how to solve the problem efficiently than making decisions behind closed doors on Parliament Hill will.
Engaging with communities, increasing resources and trusting leaders to understand the needs of their communities are all essential ingredients to move forward and achieve progress.
:
Thank you very much, MP Idlout, for the question.
I will just say that I think your question points to two important things. One is that the ambition of investment can't slow down and that we all have to continue in each of our respective files and ways to ensure that the priority of indigenous housing doesn't fall to the background noise that I think we can see and hear from MP Schmale's line of questioning. This is a priority for this government and it's a priority for the country because, as MP Idlout and many others know, if people don't have access to good housing, it's very difficult for them to reach their full potential.
There is some positive progress. I will say that the Government of Canada in partnership with first nations conducts something called the well-being survey. In 2016, first nations reported an average community well-being score of 58 and, by 2021, that average rose to 62. In terms of housing, first nations reported an average community well-being housing score of 68 in 2016, and that rate rose to 73. In 2016, there were 17 first nations that reported community well-being housing scores of less than 40, and by 2021 we only saw two under that amount.
This is important progress, and I think we need to guard it and continue.
:
I have no problem with the time of the question.
The Chair: I don't believe that's a point of order.
Hon. Sean Fraser: It's not a point of order; I agree with you.
Moreover, I have no problem with the length of the question. I actually wish the previous questioner spent as much time on indigenous housing.
What I have problems with is the Conservatives trying to shut down an answer that may be uncomfortable for them, because what I hear behind that question, coming from a member who opposes the very investments that are designed to address the needs he's raising in his question, when I know that he stands and votes against those measures—
:
Thanks very much, Mr. Chair.
My question is for Minister Hajdu, but I certainly offer the opportunity to Minister Fraser to weigh in as well.
Ministers, we heard a number of weeks ago that part of what has posed an obstacle and an ongoing challenge for housing in the north is the impacts of climate change. Having sat on the agriculture committee over the course of the past number of months, we know that this is posing significant challenges to farmers and producers across the country. It manifests, of course, in all sorts of different ways, whether that's in the agricultural industry, whether that's in the transportation industry or whether that's people just trying to participate in leisurely activities with their kids outdoors.
It clearly has also had an impact on housing costs and the conditions of housing in the north. In northern Manitoba, for example, where we're seeing recession in terms of permafrost, that's posing significant challenges with things like our rail line in Churchill and other pieces of infrastructure.
Minister Hajdu, can you comment, please, on the ways in which you and your department have seen the impacts of climate change impact first nations housing specifically?
Minister Fraser, if you want to talk about housing more generally in relation to climate change, I'd certainly welcome those comments as well.
:
Thank you very much for a real question about a real challenge facing not just indigenous communities but communities across Canada with the advent of a warming climate and increasingly climate-related disasters. In fact, many of the visits when I've had the pleasure of meeting with first nations have been to communities that are working to rebuild homes and other infrastructure after a devastating climate-related incident. On the east coast they had torrential flooding. I know that MP Battiste would know all about the kinds of impacts that flooding is having on first nations communities, in particular around housing but other infrastructure as well. I mentioned Lytton First Nation and Skwlax nearby, which suffered tremendous infrastructure loss.
This is not only creating instability for first nations communities, it's also destroying functional infrastructure that costs, in some cases, millions of dollars to replace. Obviously, the more remote a community is, the harder it is to build. It's something that I think is really absent from the consideration of the questions I've been hearing from the official opposition. Getting equipment and people and infrastructure supplies to remote communities that are often not road accessible is an additional cost that has to be borne.
I will also say that it delays communities that oftentimes have a variety of things under way—economic development, projects of their own, infrastructure plans for investing in building up their communities—and when a climate-related disaster strikes, all of that is put on pause while the community responds to that crisis and evacuates its residents, sometimes for months and months, if not longer.
Lastly, I will say that some communities, such as Peguis First Nation, due to the historical location of their community—you would know this very well, MP Carr, and you've been an advocate for communities in Manitoba—will see repeated flooding. That really undermines the progress they have been able to regain inch by inch after significant flooding events.
:
I'm happy to supplement the answer.
We see unique climate impacts in indigenous communities and northern communities that disproportionately impact indigenous peoples across Canada. Some of them can be building resilient housing that can withstand severe weather events. Others will require us to make better planning decisions and share information around where we're expecting more severe weather, such as floods. In my hometown, hurricanes had a unique impact, not only on Mr. Battiste's community in Cape Breton but also Pictou Landing and Paq'tnkek First Nation in northern Nova Scotia.
We also see important unique factors to consider when it comes to housing in the north. The changing nature of permafrost on building practices, needing to build to a different code given the cold climate and the necessary infrastructure that can impact the ability and time at which you can ship or transport the necessary materials to build all feed into it. That's in addition to understanding the different nature of what it takes to build a home when it you consider the different impacts of not only climate change but also the traditional climate.
This has to be front and centre in all our conversations. It's not good enough to build a house that will last the next few months. We have to build a housing ecosystem that will last a generation.
Minister, as I mentioned earlier, we have to make sure that first nations have the expertise within their communities to carry out projects, and that is a major problem. How do you ensure that you have architects and engineers who can design buildings in the communities?
There is also the issue of insurance. I recently met with representatives of the FNFA, the First Nations Finance Authority, who told me that there's a major problem when it comes to insuring loans. The traditional ways of assessing whether a project is risky or not do not apply to indigenous communities. We know that the FNFA has developed expertise that is recognized in the insurance industry.
Finally, there are a number of initiatives to raise capital. The Yänonhchia' initiative is a good example. It relies on the Aboriginal Savings Corporation of Canada to establish financial credibility.
Minister Hajdu, over the coming years, how will you support these initiatives that develop the indigenous know-how used by and for indigenous projects?
:
Thank you very much, Mr. Lemire. That's a great question.
We have a new program to improve the capacity of first nations.
[English]
It's called the housing management subsidy. It was announced in budget 2022, and it includes $157 million to support the training of the kinds of experts that you're talking about—housing managers on reserve—who can help with the very issue of protecting the property, making sure the property is maintained and making sure that those assessments are up to date to address some of the issues you've identified, like insurance.
We also received $66 million over three years to devote to training and certification, and the provisions of technical services for those first nations housing managers.
I will also say that you mentioned using a partnership between government and private capital to accelerate building houses. Let me give you an example of some work that CMHC did that was announced on April 18, 2023. CMHC partnered with the indigenous-owned private credit fund, Keewaywin Capital Inc., on a pilot project to build over 330 homes financed by private capital. This demonstrates how private credit can work as a viable low-risk way to augment the investments that the federal government is making.
I think you're on the right track with the questions you're asking. That's exactly the direction that this government wants to go...those tools of self-determination, including the skills, the knowledge and the partnerships that often can be formed once that capacity continues to grow.
:
[
Member spoke in Inuktitut, interpreted as follows:]
Thank you, Chair.
First of all, I'd like to remind everyone, it is my understanding that the Auditor General's report is to look at indigenous housing. It doesn't mean Inuit. It has no Inuit content, nor does it cover any Nunavut housing or Inuit housing needs. I know that.
Minister Hajdu, I understand that we are not involved with Nunavut on this issue, but I also represent Nunavut Inuit, and we talk about indigenous people. We talk about first nations and Métis.
The Auditor General—
[Translation]
:
I'd like to call this meeting back to order.
Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted on Wednesday, April 10, the committee is meeting to continue its study of “Report 3: First Nations and Inuit Policing Program”, of the 2024 reports of the Auditor General of Canada.
I would like to welcome our witness, the Honourable Dominic LeBlanc, Minister of Public Safety, Democratic Institutions and Intergovernmental Affairs, who is flanked by officials Shawn Tupper and Chris Moran from the Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness.
Also, we have Deputy Commissioner Bryan Larkin and Assistant Commissioner Warren Brown from the RCMP.
With that, Minister LeBlanc, I will pass the floor to you for five minutes for your opening.
:
Mr. Chair and colleagues, thank you for inviting me and thank you for introducing my colleagues from the department and the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, who have joined me.
Mr. Chair, just by way of an opening, I know you invited me for an hour and I'm happy to be here for an hour. I was here on time, but you were running a bit late. As I mentioned to some of you, I am seeing the national chief of indigenous policing on this very issue in my office in the Confederation Building at 1:15, so you'll understand that at 1:05 or 1:10 I will excuse myself, so as to not keep her waiting.
Colleagues, it is significant that today is the fifth anniversary—I just wanted to note, in the sombre moment that it is—of the release of the report on missing and murdered indigenous women and girls. It struck me when I was preparing for this conversation on the weekend that we would be here on this very day.
[Translation]
I appreciate the opportunity to speak about the Auditor General of Canada’s performance audit report on the first nations and Inuit policing program, or FNIPP, and I thank Auditor General Karen Hogan and her team for the report and their work. I had quite a productive discussion with her, by the way.
As you know, the FNIPP is an important program that aims to increase access to dedicated, culturally responsive policing services in first nations and Inuit communities, consistent with provincial and territorial jurisdiction over administration of justice, including policing operations.
The Government of Canada welcomes the Auditor General's recommendations. These come at a fitting time, as Public Safety Canada is currently exploring ways to modernize its programming for indigenous people. The report will help guide the department, and partners like the RCMP, as it looks to improve the delivery and impact of the FNIPP, including through measurable results, in the communities it serves.
[English]
Our efforts to act on the report's recommendations are already under way. That's what I was able to assure the Auditor General in my constructive conversation with her.
For instance, Public Safety Canada has recently updated its internal structure to streamline the delivery of the program related to indigenous issues, programs and policy work within our department's mandate.
The Government of Canada has also committed to tabling legislation that recognizes first nations police services as essential services, as soon as is feasible, and we're well on our way to making this happen. That is the subject of a conversation that I have had with the national chief and other partners, but I'm going to continue that conversation, as I said, a little later this afternoon as well. In fact, over this past winter indigenous-led regional and national engagement sessions have been held on proposed legislative options to co-develop federal legislation to recognize first nations police services as essential services.
This engagement builds on the ongoing collaboration that our department has fostered with first nations and subject matter experts, obviously, like the First Nations Chiefs of Police Association and the First Nations Police Governance Council, as well as, of course, provincial and territorial partners.
Public Safety has also revisited the program management relationship with the RCMP to more readily consider and integrate officer availability in program management decisions, which was the subject of some of the Auditor General's fair comments.
The RCMP is continuing to work with communities to improve cultural awareness and practices as they reaffirm their commitment to keeping indigenous communities safe, including through the first nations and Inuit policing program. I have had reassuring and constructive conversations with Commissioner Mike Duheme and I have a lot of confidence in the leadership of Assistant Commissioner Brown and Deputy Commissioner Larkin, who are with me today.
[Translation]
In conclusion, the Government of Canada will continue to work closely with first nations and Inuit partners, law enforcement agencies, and provinces and territories.
The provinces and territories make the decisions on the level of policing needs in their jurisdiction, identify priorities for this program and provide 48% of the costs. As you well know, the federal government then cost-matches the remaining 52%.
In advancing this work, it is important that we respect the constitutional division of power. It is a challenge in this context, but in my opinion, the challenge is not insurmountable.
[English]
We look forward to continuing to work with indigenous communities that rely on these services. It is their security and their safety that should guide all these efforts.
Thank you very much.
:
I appreciate the answer, Minister. That's not something we get very often around here.
You say that you believe policing on first nations is essential. You mentioned in your opening comments that the government is committed to tabling legislation. Unfortunately, this is something we have heard for a number of years now.
Your predecessor who was rightly removed from his position at the time in 2022 said that he was going to work around the clock to get this done. He said that it was right around the corner, that this legislation would be here, and since then we have seen delays. The government at one point began blaming the AFN for dragging its feet, which was a ridiculous assertion in an attempt to deflect from your government, but now you are the minister and the buck stops with you.
Why should Canadians and first nations across the country believe you this time?
:
They should believe us because there has been a considerable body of work done in this respect. I refer to consultations that Assistant Deputy Minister Moran has had and her colleagues have had across the country. These are ongoing conversations. As I said, I'm picking up the conversation with the national chief later this afternoon.
I don't underestimate the complexity of this initiative. I participated in a federal-provincial-territorial meeting in Bromont, Quebec, with provincial and territorial ministers. They, obviously, have different views as to how this legislation might apply.
As I noted, it's a constitutional jurisdiction they have, but that doesn't mean that we don't have an obligation to get it right. I know the suspense has been terrible for you, but I think you should look forward to seeing legislation, I hope, in an appropriate moment.
:
When I read the Auditor General's report, that was a source of concern to me. I discussed it with the senior RCMP leadership in the department right away. One of the challenges is that this program is a cost-shared program. Our contribution comes at the end of the process, once provinces or territories allocate their own money.
In some cases, as I referred to in my opening comments, it has to do with the RCMP's ability to staff a particular position in a particular community. If that particular position is not able to be staffed, that's a separate challenge that we're making considerable progress in addressing. I hope somebody asks us about recruitment and retention for some of these positions in indigenous communities, because there's a good story to tell there.
But you can see the challenge. The department is not able to allocate money to a particular position that is not filled, and nor under a contribution agreement are we able to allocate money if a partner hasn't matched the 48%. There should be zero money lapsed. The way to get to zero money lapsed—we should increase the funding, which we're prepared to do—is to work with provincial and territorial partners and the RCMP to improve the way they recruit and retain, which is well under way.
I'm confident that the number should be diminishing rapidly, but we do need to work with our policing partners in different jurisdictions to get that number to zero. I don't want to pretend that we alone have the ability to drive that number to zero, but we will work with them to get it to zero as quickly as we can.
:
As Dr. Powlowski noted, the designation of first nations' policing as an essential service confirms, I think, something that non-indigenous communities have known for a very long time. It's that the ability to rely on professional, accessible, independent policing services is an essential requirement for communities to be safe, for communities to be able to grow and for families to be able to work and live in communities. It should be no less so in indigenous communities.
I learned something from representatives of policing services in northern Ontario, which is so ably represented by Dr. Powlowski.
Imagine if you worked for the Toronto Police Service—or heaven forfend, the RCMP, Bryan Larkin—and you didn't know if you would have a paycheque on April 1 because it's a contribution agreement based on a certain number of fiscal years.
How do you train, recruit and maintain public confidence and the confidence of the officers who serve in these police forces if there isn't long-term, reliable and recurring funding?
The idea is to designate it as an essential service and provide legislative certainty as to the long-term, recurring nature of the funding. It will—I learned this from police chiefs from northern Ontario—be a lot easier for them to recruit and retain the kind of professional officers that they want to serve in their communities. It speaks to the leadership in those communities being able to count on what is in every other community an essential service, as I said.
The idea that it sunsets with a contribution agreement wouldn't make sense in a non-indigenous community. We think it's a long overdue thing that we can correct. We hope we can correct it legislatively.
The RCMP, along with other police organizations nationally, right now are having a very challenging time recruiting anybody, period.
With that, in 2023, we started a very robust recruiting program. We launched a first nations, Inuit and Métis recruiting strategy specific to those designations to help increase the number of applicants and increase candidate retention. The key objectives of this strategy include targeted marketing and outreach, reduction of barriers for applicants and the provision of support for applicants.
Our goal is to reach 10% indigenous cadets at Depot by the year 2027. For the first time since the pandemic, we are up to 40 troops. We have a goal of getting to 50 troops, with the full 32 allotment within those troops.
I attended Depot last week. It was the 30th anniversary of the indigenous pre-cadet training program, IPTP. We had a full troop with that. Many of these young adults want to work not only in their home communities, but in other indigenous communities.
We have our second IPTP troop starting in August. I think we're on a really good pathway as it is right now.
Overall, the RCMP has about 2,500 vacancies. That's about a 15% vacancy pattern across the board for frontline policing.
In our indigenous communities, however, out of 1,823 indigenous employees, we have about a 7% vacancy. Again, I don't say that's good, but I think we're making some pretty good headway.
I'm really optimistic that in years to come, we'll have a really good-news story for you.
Thank you.
:
Mr. Lemire, thank you for your question.
You won't be surprised to hear me say that I don't share the pessimistic view that we're on the verge of a change in government. I do not want that, as it would be a setback in terms of support for indigenous peoples, and not just when it comes to issues related to the administration of justice. However, I understand your sentiment. I'm teasing you, of course, but I would have rather talked about parliamentary timelines and the general election, which would take place in 12 or 15 months, after Parliament is dissolved.
Having said that, I am fully aware of the timeline. That is underpinning my current conversation with the national chief of the Assembly of First Nations. I also understand the objective of wanting a bill that clearly defines the essential nature and the recurrence of funding, as I said.
That said, your political party is very interested in matters of provincial jurisdiction. I will not hide the fact that it is quite a challenge to find the right way for the Parliament of Canada to legislate in this matter while taking into account the provincial justice systems and police services. I am still very optimistic following my conversations with my counterpart Mr. Bonnardel, who wants to be a partner. The Sûreté du Québec, which is showing a lot of good will, is also an important partner for us in this regard. I just need to find a way of doing things that meets the essential and important objective, but that doesn't put us in a position where we could be criticized in court for trying to legislate in an area of provincial jurisdiction.
I'm not saying this to provoke you. I admit that, in other cases, you may tell us that we are not sensitive enough, but—
:
Mr. LeBlanc, I'll be honest with you. From what I hear on the ground, there are indeed a lot of discussions between the federal and provincial governments about the establishment of these indigenous police forces. The problem is that not enough discussions are being held with the indigenous communities themselves, especially at the federal level. First nations are thirsty for information on what's happening with the bill and on other issues.
We know that the calls for justice for missing and murdered indigenous women and girls have been numerous. There are calls for a transformation of policing and the development of legislation in collaboration with indigenous police forces. That element is critical. had moved in that direction, but the central question remains: When will the bill be introduced to provide for these fundamental changes so that indigenous police services in communities would be recognized as essential, and funded accordingly?
That has an impact, especially in my region, where discussions are under way to create a regional indigenous police force for all of Abitibi-Témiscamingue. This is an emergency, in particular for the Long Point community in Winneway, which no longer has its own police service.
When will we be able to take action?
:
Thank you for the question.
I have had the same encouraging information about the willingness to train this regional indigenous police force in your Abitibi-Témiscamingue region. That is precisely what we would like to see legislated.
Your Conservative colleague quoted my predecessor, who may have given too specific of a deadline. Not surprisingly, we missed that deadline. I will be careful, but I can tell you that I understand the urgency. I am aware of the issue of parliamentary timelines, which you rightly raised. I hope to have some encouraging results from my conversation today with the national chief. I will continue this work until we get there, but I understand the urgency, as do my colleagues here with me today.
:
That was also one of the things I spoke to the Auditor General about, and when I read the report, it was obviously a source of concern as it would be for you and the people who you and other colleagues represent.
Again, in order to provide reliable, precise information, because I understand the importance for the communities, perhaps Assistant Commissioner Brown could provide some precision.
The good news is that there are 443 positions contemplated in this agreement. At the time of the audit, there were 60 vacancies. That number has been cut in half. It's down to 30. It should be zero, and we're working to get there.
Perhaps Assistant Commissioner Brown could provide some specific answers to the precise communities that you're referring to where there were vacancies.
:
This is a very complex matter whereby the provinces and the territories are responsible for the administration of the police. I noted in the Auditor General's report that this is clearly work that the RCMP needs to improve upon, and we intend to do that with our counterparts at Public Safety Canada.
We're not a signatory to the community tripartite agreements, CTAs, and it's our experience in some communities that there's perhaps not a great understanding of what enhanced policing is versus core policing. The RCMP welcomes the opportunity to be part of that table when CTAs are renewed. As the minister responded, out of the 146 CTAs we have nationally with 443 members, we are seeing significant vacancies in other areas as well. Unfortunately, oftentimes when there are limited numbers of members in small remote communities, they have to provide a core policing function as well, so they're not adhering to 100% of their policing time. We have to get better at that, so we agree with the Auditor General on that. However, with the optimistic and robust approach we have for recruiting, I believe that we can meet that measure in short time.
:
[
Member spoke in Inuktitut, interpreted as follows:]
Thank you for responding to my last question.
I just want to remind everyone that in Nunavut our police are not present in every community, and it affects us in the community and in the territory. Kugluktuk, for instance, and Taloyoak, Arviat and Iqaluit, those communities have headquarters. They start work at 8:30 and they complete the day at 4:30. When they are given a call during those hours they will respond, but in the evening, after hours—after 4:30 in the evening and until the next morning—if you call for the RCMP nobody will respond. Your call will be directed to the Iqaluit headquarters. Once your call is directed to the headquarters in Iqaluit, the recipient does not speak Inuktitut and does not understand the caller. Many people are appreciative that we have policing for our safety, but their hours do not serve the community 24-7, as they should.
[English]
:
It's a very good question.
Perhaps, Mr. Chair, I'll ask the department to come back to you with the exact number of years for the individual agreements so that everybody has that information.
I think our colleague has identified exactly the challenge I tried to describe in my opening comments, because I think the point is absolutely valid.
In the contract policing that goes on year over year between the Province of New Brunswick and the Government of Canada, or a municipal police force such as the Toronto Police Service or the SPVM—pick your municipal police force—that is the essential element that is not fair to the indigenous policing communities, and that's exactly the issue we're trying to address. I think I share entirely our colleague's concern.
:
I'm going to interrupt you. Obviously, you're not getting to what I'm talking about.
We seem to have a challenge in the northern territories about trying to have indigenous policing in the territories. When I raised the question with the territorial government, they said they don't have the resources to cost-share either RCMP or indigenous police. When I talk to the federal government, and you're the third minister I've talked to, the response has always been that there is no enabling legislation.
I'm very disappointed that we're still taking this colonial attitude, where we have to have the indigenous government go to a third party for public safety. Why are we not engaging with indigenous governments to set up policing programs when we have resources at the federal level, but we have no partners to take it on because the provinces in some cases—in my situation, the territorial government—do not have the resources to cost-share? Why aren't we discussing this as a possibility for indigenous governments to engage?
:
Mr. Lemire, I have already had discussions with the national chief, whom I met for the first time in Winnipeg last fall, I believe. The deputy minister also met with her a few months ago.
I understand the urgency and I accept it. I also recognize that this is not simple in terms of effort. If it were simple, I would like to think that my predecessors may have come up with something. However, I recognize the urgency of taking action, since we all know the history, whether in your region, in Mr. McLeod's region, in the Northwest Territories, or in other regions.
I'm continuing my work and I hope to move forward as quickly as possible.
:
I, too, read that, and in my conversations directly with the Auditor General, I discussed that very issue with her. I and the assistant commissioner identified some of the indigenous troops who are going through Depot now.
From my visit to Depot last fall, and from my conversations with officials from the public safety department and the leadership of the RCMP, I think that circumstance has been very significantly improved.
We can always do better and do more, but my conversations with both the commissioner and my colleagues, who are here today, tell me that there are very specific training programs currently in place. It's not only indigenous members who are joining the RCMP, but all members who would serve in Canada's national police force who would benefit from that culturally appropriate training and understanding.
Maybe the assistant commissioner can provide some precise detail. I take the question in the earnestness with which was posed, and certainly commit our government to ensuring that it is not a recurring circumstance. I'm optimistic by the work that's been done, though.
The assistant commissioner can perhaps provide more specific reassurance than my words.
:
Mr. Brown, I'm afraid we've run out of time, but thank you very much.
Thank you very much, Ms. Idlout.
That concludes our second panel.
I want to thank Minister LeBlanc for appearing today, as well as the officials from Public Safety and the RCMP. I know, Minister, that you need to make it to a very important meeting.
With that, we're going to briefly suspend before we go in camera to do some committee business.
[Proceedings continue in camera]