:
I'm sorry, but I have just a really brief administrative matter.
On May 7, 2024, when Ms. Catherine Tait appeared, I asked if she received a bonus.
She responded, “I'd like to get legal counsel to make sure that it's in compliance with the Privacy Act before I do so, but if it is, I will provide it to this committee.”
Through the chair to the clerk, have we received correspondence from Ms. Tait telling us what her bonus amount was for the 2021-22 year?
:
Pursuant to the order of reference of Wednesday, November 22, 2023, the committee is returning to its consideration of Bill , an act to amend the Canadian Heritage Act with respect to the court challenges program.
Before we begin, I'm going to do the usual housekeeping.
Could you all consult the cards on the table? The cards on the table tell you how to prevent audio feedback. I'll remind you of the little decal on the top to place your earpiece, so we can have a good meeting with nobody getting hurt.
Now, again, keep your earpiece away from all microphones. I'm still trying to figure out how I can speak and be automatically turned off, like I used to with the old phones. I have to remember to keep pressing to take myself off speaking. There you are. That's a little glitch we're trying to fix.
Now, today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format. I want to make a few comments for the benefit of members and witnesses.
Please wait until I recognize you by name. For those of you who are here virtually, please raise your hands in the virtual box, so I can recognize you.
Again, all comments should be addressed through the chair.
We have here with us again Blair McMurren, director general, strategic policy and international affairs, and Flavie Major, director, international affairs and human rights, strategic policy and international affairs, from the Department of Canadian Heritage.
Of course we have our legislative clerk, Mr. Méla, whom we all know very well. He's a patient man, indeed.
Resuming debate on the clause-by-clause, we are now looking at the subamendment of Mrs. Rachael Thomas. It's a subamendment to the amendment that we still have to vote on for G-1.
I'm going to read you the subamendment, just to make sure that everybody has it. Of course, I have to first and foremost find it in my notes.
Mrs. Thomas, after the words, “independent of the Government of Canada”, is inserting, “for which the selection criteria shall be made public and the final selection decision shall be tabled in each House of Parliament.”
That then goes with Mr. Serré's subamendment, which Mr. Méla wants to make a comment on.
:
Thank you, Chair. I would.
Now that we have this subamendment cleared up and figured out, essentially what we're doing here is assuring that there's independence for the body that is issuing the court challenges program or overseeing the intake process. It is also creating accountability around what that process looks like, and then also accountability because the decisions have to be tabled with the House of Commons.
Again, this is based on witness testimony. We heard that there should be greater independence, greater transparency and greater accountability, so that, no matter what government is in power at the time of the program being administered, it does in fact happen at arm's length and is done in a non-partisan fashion to the greatest extent possible.
Is there anyone else? No? Is anyone opposed to the subamendment?
Yes, Mr. Serré? You're opposed to the subamendment? All right, so we should call a vote.
Do you want a recorded vote? No?
Well, the majority is obviously supporting it.
Are you supporting it, Mr. Noormohamed?
:
I did. Thank you, Madam Chair.
I agree with this. When I was going through the budget, there was a lot of money not spent—hundreds of thousands of dollars, actually. I was concerned with the accountability on this bill, the money being put forward into Bill and the money that is there today.
I think the accountability is one that I'm really concerned with in this bill. We're putting money into a bill that already has hundreds of thousands of dollars.
I would like to ask the officials, Madam Chair, if you don't mind, about my concern. When I looked at what was in the bill and how much money was there, I was shocked that there were hundreds of thousands of dollars, and yet this government is going to put even more in there. Fiscally, I was just concerned about that.
Mr. McMurren, I would like to get your perspective on this, because when I first looked at the bill, I was shocked at the hundreds of thousands that were not spent, and we're putting more money into this.
:
Thank you for the clarification.
I would just remind members, because I think it's related and it's underlying the question, that there was an announcement in budget 2023 regarding the doubling of the program budget from $5 million annually to $10 million annually. That is the case, and that is under way. The ramp-up is under way.
The university is in the process of planning for the receipt of the new monies and how they will be used. The two independent expert panels are obviously involved in planning for how that's going to happen. There are some parameters around it. For example, a minimum of 30% of the total funds will be dedicated to official language rights cases. Some of the original parameters of the modernized program will continue.
To the point around the surpluses that appear in public accounting around the program, I think something important to point out is that it's sort of related to the complexities of the legal cases that the program funds. There are situations in which surpluses return to the program if the money is not required by litigants. There's a financial complexity to the management of the program that the university works through on a continual basis, effectively, as those monies return.
The reason for this change is that, again, we heard from witnesses who said that this program is most appropriately used for federal cases. Unfortunately, it was created by Pierre Elliott Trudeau—Trudeau senior—as a back-door way to go after the Province of Quebec and attack some provincial legislation that they were putting through. He didn't want to do it himself. He didn't want the federal government's handprints to be on the challenge, and so instead he created this program in order to fund third parties that could take on the Province of Quebec and, therefore, attack that province. Similarly, it has been used over the years in this way, which is inappropriate.
This subamendment that I'm offering will prevent the court challenges program from being used to go after provinces and instead will have to stay within federal jurisdiction, which, of course, is most appropriate, given that we are talking about a federally funded program and the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.
I just simply made an observation. If the member takes that as negative, that is his interpretation. The observation stands.
In terms of the subamendment that I wish to move at this point, then, again it takes from CPC-5 and looks to incorporate it into G-1 as subamended by Mr. Serré....
I apologize. Just give me one moment here to find where it will best fit. This will be inserted at the end of Mr. Serré's subamendment. It would read, this final line here, where it has “rights that are guaranteed by the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms”, I would insert, “and that do not involve potential conflicts between those rights.”
Again, we heard from a number of witnesses, who brought up that this program is currently administered by a body through uOttawa. There's, of course, no transparency around how that body is put in place or how those members are selected. There's no transparency around how cases are selected or how they are funded or to what extent. We're left in this dark area as members of the public. Of course, taxpayers' dollars are going towards this program, yet they are not informed as to how that money is used. It is an interesting situation.
What ends up happening, no doubt, is applications are put forward for cases where actually some of those applications can be in conflict with one another. The board, then, is put in a situation where they are picking winners and losers. Essentially, the board is actually making a decision on which side of the case they believe is more worthwhile than the other. It's really interesting that we would allow for the system to function that way.
In doing that, then, again without transparency, without accountability, with nothing having to be tabled before the House and funding not having to be made known, it raises lots of red flags around this program, which of course is what we heard from many witnesses.
This subamendment is saying that where there is a conflict between rights, those cases actually should not be selected. The board should not be put in this position where they get to pick winners and losers.
The amendment—or subamendment at this point—then states very clearly that those potential conflicts between rights should be avoided, again, in order to make sure everybody has a fair chance at having their case heard; and the board is not put in a position whereby it gets to essentially decide which side of the argument or which right then gets preferential treatment over another.
It's wrong for the board to do that. It's certainly not a good use of taxpayer money, and it's actually a slap in the face to justice.
:
I would be happy to offer a perspective from the department as stewards of the modernized program.
I would simply state that, from our perspective, independence and transparency are important touchstones of the modernized program. The way the program has been implemented, there's been very much an attempt to make public the criteria, for example, around the selection of the independent organization. This was done in 2017 through an open and transparent process. The criteria were published around that process. The results were published subsequently. They're similar in process to the way that members of the two independent expert panels are appointed to those panels. It's also done through an open and transparent process.
I would also observe that the criteria around the selection of cases for funding by the University of Ottawa is very public in the sense that it's all published on the website of the program hosted by the university. In fairly extensive detail around the three kinds of projects that can be funded—development of test cases, litigation of test cases and legal interventions—there are criteria around each one of those categories for both streams of the program, which we consider to be highly appropriate given the mandate we had to implement a modernized program in the most open and transparent way.
:
Thank you, Chair. I would just ask the officials this.
The comment was with regard to the overall process in terms of the body that oversees the program, which is through the University of Ottawa. I would agree with him that there is some level of transparency; however, I would ask him to send to the committee those selection criteria. I don't know that they're as transparent as he's making them out to be.
Certainly, when I've looked in the past—and I've looked several times over the last couple of months—they are not always available in both French and English, and there are still some significant grey areas. I would ask those to be tabled with the committee just so that we can peruse them, and I certainly would ask that he make sure those are in fact up on the website consistently and not taken down for any period of time.
However, the comment does skip over what this subamendment does, which is to make sure that the cases that are selected...that rights are not in conflict with one another. That's a bit of a different issue from what was commented on with regard to the selection of the panel.
:
Thank you, Madam Chair.
I just want to get a verification through the department. You mentioned that it was published later by the University of Ottawa. When I go on there, cases that happened in February may not be reported until late in the year, November or December. Is there a guideline for when a case does go through and ends, one way or another? Is there a dead stop date? I went on the website and saw stuff where we had a conflict in January or February with one case and it was not being reported until maybe November, if at all.
I think that's what Ms. Thomas was saying. When you go on the website, it's very slow. It's not very transparent. That was my issue with accountability on money. The court challenges program right now has a cumulative surplus of over $3.5 million. According to the recent main estimates, the CCP's annual funding is going to double, as they said, to over $10 million. That's the transparency, I think, at least on this side, that we're having really difficult times with. When a challenge has been accepted and has gone through the proper negotiations, we're not seeing it up on the website.
Is there a protocol in place with the university to get to this? As I said, I've seen some that maybe are February and that all of a sudden pop up in November, which is like seven or eight months later. That seems a little long to me. Is there a process in place to get these verdicts up sooner?
:
Per the contribution agreement between the department and the university, there's an annual report. It appears most years in November. In that report, there's a lot of information around statistics around the applications received and cases funded. Some cases are highlighted in detail in a descriptive kind of way.
As I think Ms. Samson, the executive director of the program, explained in her testimony, they're still working toward integrating that case information into the annual report, per the contribution agreement. She explained, I recall, that they're trying to strike a balance between transparency and what she described as “litigation privilege”, working toward the inclusion of cases that have exhausted all avenues of appeal.
That's the body of cases that is very near, I gather, to being included in those annual reports. Over the life of the modernized program, they've been working to assemble this database, to work with the beneficiaries of their grants to get their consent and to understand the status of the different cases and appeals. We understand them to be very close to the point of being able to integrate a lot more information in that regard, possibly before the next annual report. That's something we're working through with them in real time. This is stipulated under the contribution agreement. It was always the intent for this final case information to be made public.
:
Yes. I have two points. One is just a follow-up.
I would just say that in addition to what Mr. Waugh was saying, I think it's good to have the court case with the consent. We can all sort of imagine scenarios, whether it be sexual assault or otherwise, where you may not want to publish that, and that's clear. However, for cases in which we don't have victims or a sense of victims or things like that, it would be nice to not even wait for the annual report. Obviously, 12 months is a long time. Some of these court cases could already have dragged on for years before then. If we could get it perhaps not in real time but sooner than once a year, that would be terrific. I'll just pass that on as a comment.
The other thing is that Ms. Thomas asked for certain documents. Maybe I missed it, but I didn't hear an acknowledgement that you would provide those documents. If you could clearly provide an acknowledgement that you'll do your best to provide those documents, that would be great.
:
I take issue with that, Mr. Méla, and would argue that there already is an exemption.
In fact, the criteria provide that the human rights provisions do not apply to challenges to provincial laws and policies. Since there is no language law anywhere other than in Quebec, and since we made the point repeatedly in our discussions with witnesses that there should be a principle of asymmetry when applying this law, precisely by virtue of the fact that Quebec has a language law, it seems to me that it doesn't at all contravene the spirit of the law, the spirit of the CCP, to apply to Quebec what already applies in terms of human rights challenges when there are provincial policies or laws.
I therefore have grave doubts about the fact that you consider this amendment inadmissible, or that your interpretation invalidates our amendment. It seems to me that in this context, it is perfectly admissible and certainly deserves to be debated by this committee.
:
Thank you, Madam Chair.
I hope you'll allow us to debate this amendment, because I think it's quite consistent with decisions and discussions that took place as part of the Bill debate. It is literally based on principles that were recognized in the modernized version of the Official Languages Act.
I'll indulge myself by reading the amendment, which is, in fact, to amend Bill by adding, before section 3, page 2, after line 15, the following:
2.1 The Act is amended by adding the following after section 5:
5.01 The test cases referred to in paragraph 5(a.1) respecting constitutional and quasi-constitutional official language rights shall be consistent with the following purposes of the Official Languages Act:
(a) advance the equality of status and use of the English and French languages within Canadian society, taking into account the fact that French is in a minority situation in Canada and North America due to the predominant use of English and that there is a diversity of provincial and territorial language regimes that contribute to the advancement, including Quebec’s Charter of the French language, which provides that French is the official language of Quebec;
(b) advance the existence of a majority-French society in a Quebec where the future of French is assured.”
Madam Chair, I will let my colleagues comment on this amendment. I look forward to hearing the debate on this issue.
:
The amendment is fairly straightforward: It aims to ensure compliance with Bill , which, among other things, deals with modernizing the Official Languages Act. Earlier, that wasn't the case at all. It's an administrative amendment, since it deals with dates in connection with the annual report. According to some of the witnesses who came to testify, it was the right thing to do.
Through the clerk, I'd like to present a subamendment to all committee members. The purpose of this subamendment is strictly to add a line to the bill, after “cases that received funding in the previous year.”
I therefore propose to add, following this text, and just before the period, “and any outreach and promotional activities that were conducted with groups affected by these cases.” This is similar to the language used in Bill . We're also seeking to ensure that the administrative report will have been submitted by November.
So this is a fairly straightforward administrative amendment, and I hope everyone will agree to adopt it.
:
It appears the subamendment would give the modernized program the opportunity, in its annual reporting, to speak about its outreach with affected communities.
If you consult the contribution agreement, this aspect is part of the mandate of the modernized program to some extent, with some limitations. However, as we know from our interactions with the university, it's clearly something they're conscious of. I believe the expert panels, as well, are interested in doing more of this as the program continues to take root.
I believe the subamendment would give the program, as I said, the opportunity to say more about that in the annual report.
:
Thank you, Madam Chair.
I must confess that I'm puzzled by this subamendment. It leaves me somewhat dubious. In fact, a host of images come to mind. I'd like to know what the words “outreach and promotional activities” imply. Would this involve parties with hot dogs and corn roasts for targeted groups to explain the Court Challenges Program? I'd like someone to explain what the outreach activities would consist of. I'm making jokes, but it does worry me somewhat.
We're facing some rather troubling situations in Quebec. Groups are taking advantage of this program to challenge Quebec laws. I don't doubt for a moment that the program is extremely useful. It is essential for francophone communities outside Quebec. It has saved francophone institutions outside Quebec, which is wonderful. In Quebec, however, it's not being used in quite the same way. Nor is the reality exactly the same. The fact that we're talking about outreach activities worries me a lot.
I'd like my colleague Mr. Serré, who proposed the subamendment, to explain what he means by “outreach and promotional activities that have been carried out with groups affected by these cases.”
:
I understand, Mr. Serré, that we're not talking about corn roasts. You can understand that I'm just adding some colour to something I find rather worrisome.
That being said, I find it a bit rich that you use the wording in Bill C-13 and consider the use of that wording justified for a subamendment when, just a few minutes ago, you voted against an amendment, which I thought was absolutely justified, in which that wording was used in exactly the same way.
In short, I find it a bit peculiar to talk about outreach activities. I have nothing against promoting the Court Challenges Program, making it known to different groups, in general, in Quebec and Canada. However, I'm somewhat dubious about the wording of the subamendment, which talks about outreach activities. That seems like a trap I would rather avoid.
:
I just want to make sure everything is clear.
If an organization decided to challenge a law or policy, and if it decided to take the matter to court using public funds, as the CCP provides, I don't think it should be up to that organization to decide whether it will remain anonymous or whether it will agree to the disclosure of the information. Correct me if I am wrong, but from my point of view that information automatically becomes public. In some cases, they are nonetheless challenging government legislation or policy.
I want to make sure the wording used in this subamendment or in the final version is clear and that no one is seeking access to sensitive information or prejudicing either of the parties.
Once the matter is decided, however, is there some reason to preserve the anonymity of the individuals or groups who used public funds to challenge a policy under this program?
I am trying to understand under what circumstances it would be warranted not to give broad public access to that information.
:
I simply want to clarify things. I might be a bit slow, but I feel like I do not understand.
The cases are public in nature, public money is used and we are talking about a federal program. As I already said, Mr. McMurren, I simply want this to be very clear. Tell me if it isn't. We are not asking you to change the kind of information that the program administrator has to disclose. All we want is for you to disclose the complete list rather than providing an overview and choosing the cases funded by the program that you wish to disclose.
The same criteria would apply, except that we would simply receive a list of the cases, rather than 5, 10 or 20 examples of cases. We would see the list of everyone who received program funding. The criteria would not change as to what is disclosed. Rather than being given an overview to illustrate the good work that was done and the support provided for cases, we simply want a complete list of the cases. That list should be available to the public, without having to make an access to information request.
Once again, I am not trying to put you on the spot. I am trying to understand and to make sure that the intent of the subamendment is understood.
:
Thank you, Madam Chair.
I just want to follow up on Mr. Champoux's questions.
You certainly aren't slow. If you are, I'm much slower than you are. I really do appreciate those questions.
I just wanted to dig into the fact of litigation privilege. I think there's some value in this. I'm not trying to undermine that term in total, but I do want to unpack it a bit.
I guess I could imagine a situation in which you had an individual who was a sexual assault victim and they wanted to change the legislation. We wouldn't want to discourage those folks by publicizing their name or otherwise. I get that 110% , but I would think that in most cases we would want published, any time the taxpayers are funding litigation, what they are paying for—the performance they are getting for those dollars, just like any other program, and the result of those programs.
Forgive me for this little bit of ignorance, but as of today, before this bill, do taxpayers get to know where their dollars are going with respect to any of the cases right now, or no?
:
I'm not trying to be difficult there. I'm legitimately trying to understand this and, hopefully, make the program better by working with you on this.
I think it would be a good thing for transparency for Canadians to know how much they're funding the various cases, provided.... I think there are legitimate reasons to withhold, if you have a vulnerable person. I get that 110%, but for those folks who are not in a vulnerable position, I think that's a great idea and a reasonable thing to do.
Just to get back...and then I'll finish up. Mr. Champoux's subamendment is just to provide a list of those cases at the end of the year, which is already sort of part of the modernization. This probably just puts a belt and suspenders approach to it.
Is that right?
All these cases are public anyway, or the vast majority are, unless it's a sexual assault victim or something like that.
I wish to move a subamendment.
For the subamendment, I would be looking to incorporate what is currently in CPC-6, for committee members' reference. I'd be looking to Mr. Méla to confirm. However, based on my understanding of the G-2 amendment—of course, as subamended by Mr. Serré—I should be able to replace lines 26 to 28 by putting in the following:
and financial performance of the program, as well as a list of all the cases that received funding, and the amount provided for each case
After that, it would pick up with Mr. Serré's subamendment.
Chair, once everyone feels they understand the subamendment I've put forward, I'm happy to speak about its significance.
:
Perfect. Thank you, Madam Chair.
I think it is somewhat similar to Mr. Champoux's previous motion. It is looking to create greater accountability and greater transparency around the spending of taxpayer dollars. It's wanting to make sure that the financial performance, of course, is made known, but also it's the idea that there would be a list rather than just a summary of the cases.
With regard to Mr. Champoux's point, of course, this would help bring greater clarity and greater transparency. It would put things into a document that could be easily found and read.
Then, of course, there's the amount provided for each case. This was a recommendation that came forward from a number of witnesses who said that the court challenges program should provide a more detailed account of the cases that it funds and of the funds that are given to each of those cases. Again, this isn't known right now. There's a lot of secrecy around this. It's allowed to be in the dark.
I believe that there's an opportunity for the committee, then, to ensure that.... As the likes to claim, “sunshine is the best disinfectant”, so let's let the sun shine in and allow for there to be some transparency around the way dollars are allocated and to whom.
:
Let's just ask people to vote on adjournment.
Mr. Philip Lawrence: Exactly.
The Chair: The motion to adjourn is on the floor. There is no debate.
Mr. Philip Lawrence: We want to adjourn.
The Chair: Let us, please, just do the vote.
Is anybody opposed to adjourning the meeting?
Mr. Noormohamed. There is no debate. You're just opposed.
:
Good afternoon, everyone. I will call the meeting to order.
We are resuming meeting number 121 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage, which was suspended on Thursday, May 23.
Before I begin, I would like to ask all members and other in-person participants to consult the cards in front of you for the guidelines to prevent audio feedback incidents. Take note of the following preventive measures in place to protect the health and safety of all participants, including our interpreters. Again, use only the black earpieces. Keep your earpiece away from all microphones, if you can, at all times. When you are not using your earpiece, please place it face down on the sticker in front of you. Thank you for your co-operation if you do that.
Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format.
We are resuming meeting 121. Because the meeting was suspended during clause-by-clause consideration of Bill , the committee would resume debate where it left off; however, the minister is in front of us here and available for the main estimates for 2024-2025 during the first hour. I am going to propose that we have the minister here for the first hour, and then we'll continue the second hour, if we can, on Bill .
I would like now to welcome our witnesses.
Mr. Coteau, please let us know if it isn't working.
What I am proposing, Mr. Chair, is that we spend the first hour with the minister, as you suggested. If we still have questions for the deputy minister and her officials in the second hour, we can make a decision then.
I propose that we focus on Bill , if everyone is in agreement. I will nonetheless go along with the majority once the first hour with the minister is over.
:
We're agreed to the first hour.
We're going to welcome, as expected, the Honourable Pascale St-Onge, Minister of Canadian Heritage. We have, as expected, the Department of Canadian Heritage. Welcome, Isabelle Mondou, deputy minister; and Thomas Owen Ripley, associate assistant deputy minister.
Minister St-Onge, you have five minutes for your opening statement.
Thank you, esteemed colleagues, for inviting me once again today, this time to speak to the Main Estimates 2024–2025. I want to thank Isabelle Mondou, deputy minister of Canadian Heritage, and Thomas Owen Ripley, associate assistant deputy minister, for being here with me.
This is an important moment in terms of choosing our investments. Our budget focuses on urgent issues such as housing, the cost of living and fighting climate change. It also recognizes the fundamental importance of the arts and culture. We will be increasing our support for festivals, performances, music, the audiovisual sector and the protection of our news ecosystem, which is in jeopardy.
I would like to begin with a few key points on choices I think the committee will be interested in. The CBC/Radio‑Canada has been the subject of lively debate at the committee. It is a priority for me, and let me explain why.
[English]
The public broadcaster is the only dedicated, reliable, sustainable, independent source of news, information and entertainment that is uniquely Canadian from coast to coast to coast.
[Translation]
Our broadcaster is the only media outlet in Canada that serves Canadians in both official languages and in eight indigenous languages. It also covers regions that the private sector does not serve and does not wish to serve because of a lack of profitability. The CBC/Radio‑Canada helps Canadians make decisions and face crises and urgent situations together, such as those related to the pandemic and the impact of international conflicts on Canada.
Like the other six G7 countries, our government understands the role of a public broadcaster, especially in a world dominated by digital platforms and web giants. We also understand the importance of content that is produced at home, by us and for us.
[English]
With the private sector going through financial difficulties, journalists being laid off and newsrooms closing, we need sustainability for CBC/Radio-Canada. It would simply be irresponsible of a government in a democratic country such as ours to defund and shut down the most reliable and stable source of information.
[Translation]
So we have a choice to make, whether to let the free market reign and be invaded by foreign content, or stand up for Canada's voice. In view of the $42 milllion invested in budget 2024 and the current review of the CBC/Radio‑Canada's mandate, which I will talk about in greater detail in the coming months, we have made a clear choice.
Let us turn now to support for the arts and culture.
[English]
Our need to access information and content made locally is why we passed the Online Streaming Act and the Online News Act. Canadians want to see their experiences and communities reflected on screen, in what they read and in what they listen to.
[Translation]
As a sovereign nation, we have chosen to force foreign web giants to contribute, which benefits the work of Canadian creators, our culture and ensures that they play a role in promoting Canadian content. Despite the obstruction of our legislation, Canadian creators will be able to enjoy success in a competitive digital market since we have levelled the playing field.
As a Quebecker and a Canadian, I recognize that we have a distinct identity. In a world guided by American culture, our duty as a government is to act and to make sure that we always have our own cultural references. We are not American. Our heritage is important to us, and Canadians do not have to make do with American content.
That is why we have made landmark investments in the arts and culture since 2015, following the massive cuts made by the previous government. Every time we had to make a decision for the arts and culture sector, we chose to support it.
The same applies to our news ecosystem. You have surely noted, as have I, that the crisis in the news industry is having a serious impact on our social fabric and on our ability to exchange different points of view and obtain fact-based information. Numerous experts have shown through their work that the spread of fake news and conspiracy theories can undermine confidence in democratic institutions, polarize society and compromise the quality of public debate. These findings are alarming, and we are concerned. That is why local independent journalism is more important than ever.
[English]
We recently enhanced the local journalism initiative in budget 2024, and thanks to the passage of our Online News Act, Google will soon pay nearly half a billion dollars over five years to news organizations for their work.
[Translation]
While our cultural and informational ecosystems must overcome these major disruptions and changes, it is our responsibility to defend Canadians’ access to information and everything that helps build our identity. I remind you that in 2023, culture represented over $63 billion of our nominal gross domestic product, or GDP, and it supported over 705,000 jobs all over the country.
Minister, as you know, the CBC falls under your portfolio. It's taxpayer-funded. Therefore, it deserves the utmost transparency with regard to how those tax dollars are being used.
We had the CBC's CEO, Catherine Tait, here at committee just a few weeks ago. When I asked her about executive bonuses for 2023-24 and whether or not they had been given out and how much they were, she said they had not been given out and no bonuses had been granted.
However, an official report tabled with the House of Commons just in the last little bit shows that, actually, the bonuses were given out for that year—to the tune of $15 million for the top executives. It works out that the average executive bonus given to the CBC for 2023-24 is $65,000.
That's a one-time bonus for the year. On average, it's $65,000. That's more than the average Canadian makes in a salary. Does it concern you that your hand-picked CEO, Catherine Tait, lied to us here at committee?
:
May I speak, Mr. Chair?
First of all, I will repeat again what was said previously. For over 1,000 CBC/Radio-Canada employees, part of their salary depends on achieving performance objectives. For fiscal year 2022‑2023, those decisions rest in the hands of management and the board of directors.
As for the President and Chief Executive Officer of CBC/Radio-Canada, we are waiting for the board of directors’ recommendation. It depends on an assessment of performance objectives, which are established objectively. They will be sent to us. The Governor in Council will then make a decision. To date, no decision has been made.
:
Chair, through you, the minister is not answering my question. She's choosing to avoid it.
The question was, does it concern you, Minister, that the CEO of the CBC, Ms. Catherine Tait, came to this committee a few weeks ago and lied to us? She told us that no bonuses for the year 2023-24 had yet been given out, when in fact a document tabled with the House of Commons shows that 15 million dollars' worth of bonuses were given out. Interestingly enough, those bonuses were given out to 100% of the executive team, meaning every single member got their full bonus to the tune of an average $65,000 a year.
Minister, my question is very clear: Does it concern you that the CEO of the CBC came to this committee and lied to us?
:
Thank you very much for the question.
Our government made a clear choice, which was to invest in arts and culture, and it did so for several reasons.
First of all, in my opening remarks, I noted the sector’s importance for Canada’s economy. In fact, the economic spinoffs are more significant for the country than agriculture and the entire oil sector combined. We’re talking about hundreds of thousands of jobs all over the country. They are good jobs. They help families feed and house themselves. It’s one of the reasons why the government is investing in the arts and culture sector.
However, on a more fundamental level, we know full well that stories are, among other things, what connect communities and create social cohesion throughout our country. It’s what we tell ourselves about ourselves and for ourselves.
It’s fundamental for a democratic country. It’s essential not only to have information and news, but also to be able to count on a strong cultural sector that helps communities come together and share who they are. It’s important to be aware of that, especially in a digital universe where competition is ever more fierce, and where people have access, more often than not, to English-language content from the United States, our neighbour to the south.
It is even more important for a country that believes in itself, that has confidence in itself, to invest in its artisans, in its stories, in art and in culture.
:
I thank my colleague for the question.
Since the pandemic, unfortunately, people are glued to their screens more than ever. One of the sectors that suffered the most during the pandemic was the performing arts. Obviously, we’re talking about theatre, festivals or music. I won’t talk about all the investments we made during the pandemic to support those sectors, which were practically shut down, but I’ll give you a few numbers.
The government added $32 million to the Canada Music Fund. This will help artists perform throughout Canada and create new musical worlds.
The government also invested over $31 million over two years to support festivals, big and small, across the country. Once again, we know that these are ways for people to find and discover our creators.
It’s important to bring people back to real physical places, and not just let them be captivated by screens.
Those are therefore a few of the choices we made to support theatre, music and the festival sector.
Minister, Ms. Mondou, Mr. Ripley, good afternoon.
I’m going to talk to you about the Online Streaming Act, which flows from Bill . The committee worked on this bill, in good times and bad, for several months. The Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission, or CRTC, is still trying to fine-tune its regulations regarding this legislation.
Are you closely following the CRTC’s work on the broadcasting regulations?
:
During the entire study of Bill , it seems to me that for just about every witness from the cultural and broadcasting industries, the most urgent concern was for web giants to pay their fair share, to contribute to the broadcasting system and cultural industry for the content they use, and for them to produce content that meets the criteria.
That said, we’re nowhere near close to that. Currently, it’s not even being studied. Right now, the CRTC is studying the Indigenous broadcasting policy. I’m not setting the priorities. I know that for some it’s a priority, even an urgent one. However, it seems to me that the biggest priority should be to finalize the definition of Canadian audiovisual content. It was discussed at length around this table, as well as the issue of consultations on structural relationships.
In short, it seems to me that we’re currently studying a little chunk of business over here, a little chunk of business over there, and at the end of the day, we could have been more effective and more efficient in implementing the regulations. Meanwhile, the cultural industry and broadcasters are wondering when it’s all going to wrap up.
:
I want to tell you that I’m worried about delivery on the regulations. I don’t get the impression we’re on track to meet the expected timeframe. I’m concerned about it. I’d like to send a clear message when it comes to managing priorities. These regulations were due for decades, and I’m not exaggerating by putting it that way. The industry had been clamouring for these regulations for a very long time. I get the impression it’s taking a long time to materialize.
I’ll move on to another file. I tried to throw in a little interlude, because I didn’t want to immediately broach the subject of CBC/Radio‑Canada.
You appointed members to your expert advisory committee to review the public broadcaster’s mandate. The announcement was made in mid-May, on May 13, if I’m not mistaken. I must admit that my colleagues and I at the Bloc Québécois who, as you know, defend Quebec’s interests with everything we’ve got, found that there wasn’t a lot of consideration from your expert committee regarding Quebec’s reality, which is nonetheless important for Radio-Canada’s mandate.
Among the experts you recruited to sit on your advisory committee, can you tell me which ones are experts in Quebec’s broadcasting system and Radio-Canada’s mandate, properly speaking?
Thank you, Madam Minister.
Job cuts, executive bonuses and a culture of suppressing workers' experiences of harassment and discrimination—I'm not talking about a private media conglomerate but about our public broadcaster, the CBC. We've had a lot of concerns in this committee about the conduct of the CBC, but I want to zero in on one that was referred to earlier.
When Ms. Tait appeared at committee, we had a ridiculous discussion on whether or not the bonus money that senior executives at CBC received was in fact a bonus. Ms. Tait didn't seem to understand how out of touch and inappropriate it would be to reward senior executives with bonuses while laying off workers at the CBC.
Following the meeting, the committee received a letter from the CBC, saying, among other things:
Performance pay for the President and CEO is determined by the Government of Canada following a review of performance and recommendations by the board of directors of CBC/Radio-Canada.
As Ms. Tait clarified during her appearance, she has not yet received performance pay for the fiscal 2022-2023 year.
My question to you, Madam Minister, is this: Do you believe, as the Minister of Heritage, that Ms. Tait, the head of our public broadcaster, deserves a bonus at this time?
:
Thank you, Minister, for your answer to my question. However, I am disappointed you didn’t answer with a yes or a no.
As you know, our speaking time is limited here, so I will move on to my next question.
[English]
I want to move to Bell Media. As Bell laid off 6,000 workers over eight months, we heard a number of condemnations from politicians in every party, including the , who made some very colourful remarks followed by no action. The lives of 6,000 people were irrevocably changed, all while Bell increased the amounts of dividend cheques it handed out to shareholders.
Media in this country is in crisis. Communities across the country don't have access to local journalism. It seems the Liberals are content to tweet out thoughts and prayers in place of real solutions. Bell received over $122 million from the Canadian emergency wage subsidy, only to lay off staff and pay out exorbitant executive bonuses. Besides big empty statements from the , your government has done nothing to respond to these massive layoffs concretely.
What are your plans as heritage minister in terms of concrete action in response to these major layoffs at Bell Media?
:
Yes, but my question was about Bell Media and the employees who lost their jobs.
I'll move on to another question.
[English]
Minister, I want to move to a different topic within your department.
Ahead of Canada's co-hosting the FIFA World Cup in 2026, I have called on the federal government to ensure that the benefits of hosting the World Cup, the world's single largest sporting event, are truly felt across the country. You, as a former sports minister, know this file as well.
What we said is clear. For an event of this size and magnitude, the whole country should benefit, and most importantly, all of our youth should benefit.
Soccer is the fastest-growing sport in Canada. For many in communities like the ones I represent, soccer saves lives. We've called for partnerships with youth in northern and indigenous communities, like Opaskwayak Cree Nation, Moose Lake Cree Nation, Flin Flon and many others.
We heard and saw nothing from this federal government until over $200 million was given to Toronto and Vancouver in the lead-up to the World Cup.
This is Canada's event. What is your plan, as minister, and what its your government's plan to ensure that this historic event benefits and allows for investment in all of our youth, including northern and indigenous youth, who so greatly deserve this investment?
:
Thank you for your answer.
[English]
However, I'm a bit challenged when I look at the individuals who are part of this, because I believe four of them are CBC insiders. They had a large amount of time with the CBC and are deeply connected with the CBC.
One is actually a Trudeau scholar, of course, bearing the name of the current but named after his father. We see deep connections with Liberal insiders and with respect to the Trudeau family. Obviously, we've seen a history of this.
Are you not concerned, as I am, about the partisanship of this advisory board?
:
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Minister and officials, for joining us here today. This is a very important discussion about the future of heritage in general in this country.
Minister, you said that our Canadian heritage plays a huge role in keeping our country together and building a stronger country. I believe that 100%. I'm always happy when we have CBC officials come in, because I ask them questions about things like their budget and how they're using their money. I also ask them about what they're doing for our culture, for independent thought media, and to support young people and children in this country. In Ontario, we have TVO, which is an incredible public broadcaster, as well as CBC. I'm a big supporter of both.
I want to ask you this: We see a lot more misinformation and disinformation. In fact, even at this committee today, I heard that constant narrative about viewership being down at CBC, but it was clear, when officials came in and talked about it, that it has grown in other areas. Maybe it was different traditionally—the way it was broadcast via cable and antenna—but the viewership has picked up on how we use CBC on our phones, on the Internet and with many different types of sources. In fact, every morning when I get up, and halfway through the day and in the evening, I go to CBC Listen and catch up on the latest news on demand. I'm a user, but I may not sit down at six o'clock to watch the news when it's put forward.
My question to you is this: With misinformation and disinformation taking place not only in Canada but also around the world, how does our public broadcaster play a role in combatting it, and what are your thoughts on how we move this even further in the future to combat some of these challenges?
:
I'd like to thank my colleague for his question.
When it comes to combatting disinformation and misinformation, I think CBC/Radio‑Canada's role is fundamental. The first way to combat disinformation is to ensure that we have quality journalism. Despite everything the Conservatives may say about CBC/Radio‑Canada, it is our most reliable source of information and meets the highest standards of journalistic ethics.
It's true that habits have changed. People are watching less television. In fact, more and more people are disconnecting from cable. However, CBC/Radio‑Canada, through all its platforms, is more popular than ever. Each month, 17 million people, nearly half of the country's population, use CBC/Radio‑Canada's websites and digital services. Eight million people visit CBC sites every month. There are over 10 million podcast downloads a month. There are millions more visits to other applications and platforms, including online streaming services.
It must also be said that CBC operates the leading digital news service in Canada in terms of the number of users. It is the most visited because of its credibility. CBC radio is still very popular in Canada, and is number one in 17 of 22 markets by listenership, including Toronto, but also Calgary and Edmonton.
Minister, I would like to talk to you a little about festivals, because your mandate covers more than just CBC. You may think that some people forget that.
There are also other sectors that have been extremely hard hit for several years. In the festival sector, there are cries and cracks everywhere this year. Not a week goes by without a festival in some region of Quebec calling us to say that there's a lack of funding. I know that money was added to the 2024 budget, but there are a lot of applicants for financial support from the federal government.
What do you say to the requests from organizations such as the Regroupement des événements majeurs internationaux and the Regroupement des festivals régionaux artistiques indépendants, which are major festival groups in Quebec and Canada? For some time now, they've been asking you, first of all, to make permanent the temporary support that has been granted. They're also asking you to give them multi‑year funding, for example over three or five years, to ensure predictability and to establish relationships with their partners that will be more profitable for each of the parties. I think that's a reasonable request. And yet we don't really see much enthusiasm from the government on this.
Minister St-Onge, the committee has heard from Ms. Tait of the CBC/Radio-Canada a number of times over the last few months as a result of job cuts at the CBC.
While I'm sure many of my Conservative colleagues are thrilled about this, it's the actions of my Liberal colleagues that concern me. I don't understand how, on one hand, Liberals can talk about how much they support the CBC/Radio-Canada but on the other hand cut 3.3% across the board, which, Ms. Tait said, led directly to job cuts that left CBC/Radio-Canada with a smaller workforce than it had when Stephen Harper left office.
If a future Conservative government wants a model for how to destroy good journalism in this country, they don't need to look further than the Liberal government's record. We are still seeing the impacts of those cuts, despite commitments in the previous budget.
Do you, as Minister of Heritage and as a key part of this government, feel responsible for those job cuts at the CBC?
:
I want to correct you, because there was no 3.3% reduction. Yes, Treasury Board has asked all ministers to make efforts to reduce and reallocate spending.
However, a few months ago, it was decided that CBC/Radio‑Canada would not have to make those cuts. In addition, in budget 2024, we added $42 million to help CBC/Radio‑Canada make up for the shortfall caused by the loss of advertising revenue, which, as we know, is increasingly going into the pockets of Google, Facebook and other digital platforms.
Our government has been there from the beginning, and we will continue to be there.
:
I think asking the question is answering it. When we saw the way the Conservatives treated my colleague, we saw that they had a double standard.
As for the budget cuts made by Mr. Harper, I would remind you that these cuts were made at the beginning of the media crisis, when the digital giants were entering the market and capturing advertising revenues. Instead of supporting the public broadcaster, the Conservatives preferred to make cuts of over $115 million to its annual funding, resulting in hundreds, if not thousands, of job losses at CBC/Radio-Canada.
Therefore, I find it interesting that this MP is asking questions today about the viability and jobs of the public broadcaster, but I find he doesn't have a huge amount of credibility.
I also find it interesting that the Conservatives spent nearly 11 minutes off the top talking about things that concern them. However, it all stemmed, I think, from your words—villainizing the CBC/Radio-Canada—and all because, as we've seen in places like the U.S., Conservatives around the world, and certainly the MAGA Conservatives here, can't seem to take tough questions from independent journalists. Therefore, they'd rather replace it with people who really don't challenge them, don't ask them questions. Their hand-picked misinformation is the only way. It's particularly ironic that they wouldn't even allow you the time. They ask you to come here. They want to ask you tough questions but don't have the courage to actually let you answer.
I find that particularly interesting. I'm deeply concerned, and I would like your opinion on this as well. By getting rid of independent journalists across this country, what happens to our democratic institutions? What happens to countries where you have hand-picked propaganda machines that only prop up certain political parties instead of having true, independent journalism there?
:
I call this meeting back to order.
It has been agreed by all parties that we will move to the main estimates for the second hour, and we will push Bill to next week.
The procedure is that we will have six-minute rounds of questioning.
We welcome David Dendooven, the assistant deputy minister. Thank you for joining us.
We also have with us Joëlle Montminy, senior assistant deputy minister, along with Mr. Ripley and Ms. Mondou, both of whom have stayed. Thank you to the departmental officials.
Thank you, everyone, for agreeing to look at the main estimates for the second hour.
We will start with a six-minute round of questions from the Conservatives.
Mrs. Thomas, please go ahead.
Thank you for being with us.
One of the often overlooked elements of what the Department of Canadian Heritage does is the promotion of the cultural sector.
I wonder if you could share with me, as you look at the planning going forward, how you intend to continue to invest in supporting the cultural sector through the allocations in the estimates. This would be particularly as it relates to international opportunities, to bringing global awareness and investment into Canada, and to growth for Canadian businesses, particularly those that are looking to advance and enhance the cultural sector, such as, for example, AV production, film, television and gaming.
:
Thank you very much for the question.
Yes, this is a very important aspect of what we do at Canadian Heritage. It is not only looking at growing or supporting the cultural industries from a domestic point of view, but also so that they can be successful abroad and generate revenues by selling their work internationally.
We have the creative export strategy, which was renewed. Now we have a program that's been in place for a number of years. That is a program through which we provide support to companies that do some work abroad.
We also support trade missions and take Canadian companies around the world to different markets that we identify as priority markets or to different categories that we identify as places for potential growth for the Canadian economy.
Canadian Heritage has this particular strategy that augments the impact of our creative sector, but all of our portfolio agencies, such as the Canada Council, Telefilm Canada and others, also have international strategies that then amplify the impact of our efforts abroad.
:
We do have very detailed measurements of the return on investment.
For instance, on these trade missions, we select companies that have demonstrated and have been forecast to be able to sell their work abroad. Then we measure, at the end of each trade mission, the actual return on investment for these events.
Unfortunately, I don't have in front of me today the latest data for the trade missions, whether it was the recent one in South Korea or last fall when we were in Japan. Prior to this, it was New Zealand and Australia.
I would be happy to provide the committee with this information.
:
Thank you, Mr. Chair. You mean I have 6 minutes 25 seconds, since my friend Mr. Noormohamed gave me his remaining 25 seconds.
I thank the witnesses once again for their presence at the committee.
I'm going to continue talking about exporting, because I find it interesting. It was one of the subjects I wanted to discuss with you. I find this topic very interesting because it's one of the concerns that comes up quite regularly from organizations. We don't export our culture well. We're just getting by here, in today's market, so you can imagine the enormous costs involved in exporting. Yet it can become extremely profitable.
I just want to highlight something that comes under the heading of collaboration, a notion I value enormously. This winter, we were contacted by a small export company called h264, which was on the verge of closing its doors. The company was in financial distress. It was just about the only company exporting content, films, shorts and documentaries abroad. There were no others left. It was the only company doing it. The disappearance of this company meant that we would no longer be able to export our content. We met with the company's representatives. I then contacted the department, and the company's situation was resolved. I thought that was fantastic.
I thought back to other organizations, including the Canada Media Fund, Telefilm Canada and the Toronto International Film Festival, who talk to us about the issue of exporting content, which is extremely important for the vitality of our industry. These are extremely interesting sources of revenue, and we shouldn't deprive ourselves of them.
In addition to the h264 company, for which I'm extremely happy, representatives from the Toronto International Film Festival came to meet with us to present a great project, which is to organize a major trade show to attract foreign buyers, producers and people from the film industry to Toronto to meet our artisans here. It seems to me to be a really economical way of presenting our content to people without having to travel abroad.
Have the folks at the Toronto International Film Festival approached your department about this? Have you shown any openness to supporting them in this? How will this work out?
:
Earlier, I was talking with the about the extremely precarious situation of some festivals. Some festivals are doing well, of course. Some are generating quite substantial revenues. Other festivals, however, are smaller regional festivals, though no less important for the vitality of the economy and tourism in these regions.
Once again, there's the question of funding. Festival representatives raised the point that funding is largely granted on a per-project basis. And it's not just festivals. What's more, there's no predictability. I discussed this earlier with the . This concern has been raised not only by festival representatives, but also by the Canada Media Fund, among others. Theatre directors, who are on Parliament Hill this week, have spoken to us about it as well.
Are you thinking about reviewing the funding method and ensuring that we fund more corporate activities, rather than granting project-based funding as is currently the case? This funding method sometimes encourages people to design a product because they want to raise money, but in the end they may not always be making quality products or putting their priorities in the right places.
Have you started thinking about this?
:
We, too, have heard the industry's comments. In fact, the minister and I took part in a federal-provincial meeting two weeks ago, and I can tell you that all the provinces are asking these questions. It must be said that most of the programs implemented in Canada support projects rather than granting operating funds.
The challenge in assessing all this is to ensure that we do support organizations that are viable. In some cases, this requires a review of the business model. As we know, since the end of the pandemic, audiences are different and much more unpredictable. So we really need to review our models.
We also need to find ways of pooling efforts. Many small organizations each hire a finance director, a communications officer, and so on. It's very cumbersome for them.
We're working closely with these organizations, but also with the Council for the Arts and with my colleagues in the provinces, to see how we can help with this transformation. Obviously, this is very important to us. We are concerned about the difficulties experienced by the festival sector, among others.
I want to speak about programming through Canadian Heritage.
I'm very proud of NDP pressure that we put on to oppose the cuts that the Liberals planned for Indigenous Services at a time when the infrastructure gap in first nations is $349.2 billion, something that we see in communities here in our part of the country very clearly. It's inconceivable that the Liberals thought it was a good idea to cut funding for the services that indigenous peoples and indigenous communities rely on. We were clear, and thankfully, these cuts were reversed, for the most part.
I also know that Liberals, like Conservatives, are always looking to underfund first nations. I couldn't help but notice that in the main estimates, there's been a forecast of a decrease of almost $100 million for the indigenous languages and culture program compared to the previous year.
I have the privilege of representing a part of the country where it is a constant struggle to support indigenous language education. Can you, as officials in Canadian Heritage, explain what the logic was in giving almost $100 million less than a year ago for the protection of indigenous languages when we know the extent to which many of them are under serious threat?
:
Thank you. I do want to speak to the amendment.
Obviously, we're very clear in our intent that the problem here is that the anti-racism strategy makes no reference to anti-Palestinian racism. This is not acceptable, in our view.
We look forward to having the in front of us to explain why this is the case, and certainly with the hope of the department and the Government of Canada changing course and being clear that anti-Semitism and anti-Palestinian racism, as well as other forms of hate, are part of the upcoming anti-racism strategy.
I will be voting against this amendment.
:
Mr. Chair, we are therefore resuming debate on the amended motion.
I'd like to make sure I've understood correctly. So the motion includes “before June 19, 2024, to answer questions related to its Anti-Racism strategy”, and that's where it ends.
I have two things to say.
Mr. Chair, I don't know if you're still optimistic, but it's 5:28 p.m. and we're still debating a motion. If you like, we could offer our guests the chance to leave, if they wish, or to stay and watch the entertaining debate of this committee. It's up to them.
:
I'll be quick, Mr. Chair. I'm going to make a proposal.
As I pointed out earlier, we cannot assume the minister's availability on the dates and days the committee sits between now and June 19. To this end, I think that, before imposing a date in a motion, it would be a good idea to ascertain the minister's availability.
I propose amending the motion to make it more vague. This probably won't please Ms. Ashton, but I would suggest, amicably, that she withdraw her motion for the time being, so that we can ascertain the minister's availability in the next few weeks. Perhaps that's something our Liberal colleagues could do. Then, once we have the information, we could come back to this motion, which would contain a specific date.
I'm pretty convinced that the motion would be passed very quickly if we proceeded in this way. You would certainly have my full co‑operation and my word of honour.
:
With all due respect to you, Mr. Champoux, I have to say that, frankly, I'm shocked by what you said.
If the minister responsible for combatting racism doesn't have time in the next three weeks to appear before the committee with respect to Canada's anti-racism strategy—an important strategy for the Liberal government—what are we doing here?
The Department of Canadian Heritage funds those efforts, and it is within the committee's purview to ask the minister what she's doing on the issue. We regularly invite ministers to appear before the committee. Talking about anti-Palestinian hate in Canada and other forms of hate such as anti-Semitism and Islamophobia is hugely important. As far as I'm concerned, that should be one of the Liberal minister's priorities. Otherwise, that tells you how much the Liberals prioritize Canada's anti-racism strategy and the serious work required to address the issue.
For those reasons, I'm not going to withdraw my motion. I hope that the minister can find at least one hour in her schedule, in the three weeks remaining before the House adjourns, to come and speak with the committee about this essential strategy.
:
I'd like to thank Mr. Champoux for his suggestion, which I agree with.
That said, if Ms. Ashton actually wants us to adopt her motion today, I'm prepared to work together to find a solution, which may be to say that the committee needs to see the report.
[English]
If we want to pass a motion, I am happy for us to pass a motion that says that the minister should appear, as the motion is drafted, but adding the caveat that the minister appear once the report has been made public and/or presented is the key here.
If withdrawing the motion and re-presenting is not an option, then perhaps the motion should say everything that's been said, because I think we all absolutely agree that the rise in anti-Semitism, the rise in Islamophobia and the rise in anti-Palestinian racism are all things we have to address in the report. I'm assuming the strategy addresses all of that or will speak to it.
We should have the opportunity to review the report before the minister comes. If the desire is to have a motion—and I think we all support that idea—let's at least ensure that the document we're talking about is something that we've seen. I think that seems like a reasonable thing to say.
We have two options. Do we pass a motion that says that once the report is presented, we expect the minister to show up, or, as Mr. Champoux suggested, do we pull it and bring it back when the strategy is made public?
:
I simply want to add that we've been waiting for quite some time for the anti-racism strategy to be presented. That has not been the case. I think it's pretty clear that this is problematic, especially given the rise of hate in our country in terms of anti-Palestinian racism, anti-Semitism and Islamophobia. I don't think it's acceptable to wait until this strategy that we've been waiting for for quite some time to come out.
As I've indicated, I'm very concerned that a number of advocates and stakeholders, including Palestinian Canadians, have concerns that anti-Palestinian racism is not being considered as part of the strategy. We want to get to the bottom of that.
Obviously, we're now dealing with a truncated motion that doesn't mention anti-Palestinian racism or anti-Semitism. Certainly my intent in presenting this motion was to have a vote and hear from the minister, and, frankly, for us as a committee to share thoughts on our end. If Liberals and Conservatives don't want to support that, or the Bloc—whoever—then I say let's put it to a vote as it is now.
:
Now we'll have a vote on the motion as amended.
(Motion as amended agreed to: yeas 10; nays 0 [See Minutes of Proceedings])
The Chair: Can we finish up the main estimates, very quickly?
Do I have unanimous consent to vote on the main estimates in one motion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
CANADA COUNCIL FOR THE ARTS
ç
Vote 1—Payments to the Council..........$363,758,160
(Vote 1 agreed to on division)
CANADIAN BROADCASTING CORPORATION
ç
Vote 1—Payments to the Corporation for operating expenditures..........$1,267,339,411
ç
Vote 5—Payments to the Corporation for working capital..........$4,000,000
ç
Vote 10—Payments to the Corporation for capital expenditures.........$111,898,000
(Votes 1, 5 and 10 agreed to on division)
CANADIAN MUSEUM FOR HUMAN RIGHTS
ç
Vote 1—Payments to the Museum for operating and capital expenditures..........$28,589,790
(Vote 1 agreed to on division)
CANADIAN MUSEUM OF HISTORY
ç
Vote 1—Payments to the Museum for operating and capital expenditures..........$83,116,568
(Vote 1 agreed to on division)
CANADIAN MUSEUM OF IMMIGRATION AT PIER 21
ç
Vote 1—Payments to the Museum for operating and capital expenditures..........$10,024,370
(Vote 1 agreed to on division)
CANADIAN MUSEUM OF NATURE
ç
Vote 1—Payments to the Museum for operating and capital expenditures..........$32,534,909
(Vote 1 agreed to on division)
CANADIAN RACE RELATIONS FOUNDATION
ç
Vote 1—Payments to the Foundation..........$8,992,410
(Vote 1 agreed to on division)
CANADIAN RADIO-TELEVISION AND TELECOMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION
ç
Vote 1—Program expenditures..........$8,065,740
(Vote 1 agreed to on division)
DEPARTMENT OF CANADIAN HERITAGE
ç
Vote 1—Operating expenditures..........$237,751,779
ç
Vote 5—Grants and contributions..........$1,624,605,590
(Votes 1 and 5 agreed to on division)
LIBRARY AND ARCHIVES OF CANADA
ç
Vote 1—Operating expenditures..........$134,620,885
ç
Vote 5—Capital expenditures..........$52,582,597
(Votes 1 and 5 agreed to on division)
NATIONAL ARTS CENTRE CORPORATION
ç
Vote 1—Payments to the Corporation for operating expenditures..........$57,005,441
(Vote 1 agreed to on division)
ç
Vote 1—Program expenditures..........$71,954,082
(Vote 1 agreed to on division)
NATIONAL GALLERY OF CANADA
ç
Vote 1—Payments to the Gallery for operating and capital expenditures..........$42,020,493
ç
Vote 5—Payments to the Gallery for the acquisition of objects..........$8,000,000
(Votes 1 and 5 agreed to on division)
NATIONAL MUSEUM OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY
ç
Vote 1—Payments to the Museum for operating and capital expenditures..........$38,404,738
(Vote 1 agreed to on division)
ç
Vote 1—Payments to the corporation to be used for the purpose set out in the Telefilm Canada Act..........$103,308,591
(Vote 1 agreed to on division)
THE NATIONAL BATTLEFIELDS COMMISSION
ç
Vote 1—Program expenditures..........$21,702,347
(Vote 1 agreed to on division)