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I call this meeting to order. Welcome to meeting number 53 of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts.
Pursuant to Standing Order 108(3)(g), the committee is meeting today to resume its study on “Report 8: Emergency Management in First Nations Communities—Indigenous Services Canada”, and of the 2022 reports of the Auditor General of Canada.
I would like to welcome our witnesses. For the first hour, there will be a change up, or a departure in about one hour.
First, let me welcome the Honourable Patty Hajdu, Minister of Indigenous Services. Thank you for being here today.
Also from the Department of Indigenous Services, we have Gina Wilson, deputy minister, Joanne Wilkinson, senior assistant deputy minister of the regional operations sector, Valerie Gideon, associate deputy minister, Kenza El Bied, director general of the sector operations branch in the regional operations sector, and Rory O'Connor, director general of the regional infrastructure delivery branch in the regional operations sector.
Minister Hajdu, you have the floor for five minutes for your opening statement, and then we'll turn to our members.
Thank you.
:
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
To all members, thanks for the invitation. It's a pleasure to join you here today on the traditional and unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe People.
I think this is a very important conversation, which you have, I'm sure, been studying over the last number of weeks. Joining me today, as you pointed out, are Deputy Minister Gina Wilson, Associate Deputy Minister Valerie Gideon and the senior team.
Indeed, in December, I appeared at the Standing Committee on Indigenous and Northern Affairs on the same matter, and I will reiterate what I said there: We fully agree with the Auditor General's report. I've had the opportunity to speak with her about the recommendations and our findings.
I've been the Minister of Indigenous Services for about a year and a half now. During that time, I've worked with and visited communities that have been deeply affected by climate-related disasters, whether it's atmospheric flooding in B.C., flooding in Manitoba, high wind and rain destruction from hurricane Fiona in the Atlantic, or countless communities threatened by forest fires in close proximity. It's clear that first nations people are on the front lines of climate change, which compounds the layers of challenging circumstances many communities already navigate.
Recently, the department has been supporting communities close to the environmental disaster of the Kearl Lake spill. These kinds of emergencies place enormous stress on communities through fear, disruption and, often, dislocation and expense, not to mention the deep sense of loss many people share. Whether the impact is on salmon, water, animals or land, or there's personal loss of property, health or even life, there is a deep grief every single time.
The frequency of these emergencies has increased exponentially over time. In 2010, there were 92 reported emergencies to manage collectively. In 2022, there were 173. There's no doubt we need to change how we support communities in pursuing adaptation and resiliency measures much more quickly, while we continue to be there, in an increasing way, as emergencies continue.
We know first nations people need to be in the lead, with a department that works as a true partner in both mitigation and emergency response. Indeed, first nations are taking on services and programs. The department is implementing new ways and flexible funding agreements. We're increasingly seeing collaboration with provinces, so we can more collectively respond and create better outcomes for everyone.
As an example, Ontario first nations have put forward a joint command governance model that includes indigenous partners such as tribal councils, Missanabie Cree, the Province of Ontario and Indigenous Services Canada. This approach provides better integration, so that when an emergency occurs, affected first nations have an immediate say in the emergency management process, including about decisions along the way and evacuation.
When first nations are equipped with the tools they need to deliver their own services, the results are palpable. For example, with support from Indigenous Services Canada, the First Nations' Emergency Services Society of British Columbia is supporting first nations to deliver emergency management services that integrate cultural and traditional practices. They also deliver Indigenous Services Canada's FireSmart program, which provides B.C. first nations with resources to increase resilience and better prepare for wildfires.
These are just some of the concrete examples of our transition to an approach that is inclusive, places first nations as full and equal partners, and supports their right to self-determination.
We know we don't have the luxury of time. Climate change is real. It's increasing the number of emergencies the department, provinces and territories, and communities must respond to. We need to continue aggressive funding and action, and to dismantle the colonial ways that haven't served first nations very well.
I understand many of you received a copy of the Indigenous Services Canada management action plan. I'll briefly talk about a few points.
We're updating emergency management plans to reflect today's realities and support first nations to make informed decisions.
We're actively finding solutions to address unfunded structural mitigation reports. Since our last appearance, we've reduced these reports from 122 to 58.
We're continuing to initiate multilateral conversations with indigenous leadership, first nations and provincial and territorial governments. As I said, the multilateral approach provides for better preplanning and coordination if and when emergencies occur.
Finally, we're working to ensure that emergency management services on reserve are supported to be culturally competent and in line with community needs and priorities.
As well, other government initiatives are outlined in the shared path for a more climate-resilient Canada through the national adaptation strategy. This strategy includes $1.6 billion in new federal funding commitments to help protect communities across the country, including indigenous communities.
Since 2015, when this government was elected, we have made unprecedented and historic investments in first nations communities, but the gap is very large. There's still much to be done, including continuing to act on this particular Auditor General's report, signing agreements with first nations and provinces and territories, and building structural mitigation efforts.
As I said earlier, I appreciate your work and advocacy for self-determination and equity for all first nations in Canada, including in this space of emergency preparedness and management.
I see my role as minister as being to press for service excellence and transformation, but also to seek the additional investments that we'll need to support better emergency management services and preparedness for first nations. I will continue that work.
Meegwetch. Thank you. Marsi.
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Talking about emergency management is one of the very emotional spaces for me as a minister, because what we're talking about—and many of you may have experienced some climate-related emergency in your own life, a flood at home or relocation—is significantly disruptive to communities.
In the past, while communities were in the chaos of trying to manage crisis, there was a fairly restrictive approach to getting money to them. What communities would say frequently was that they needed flexibility in those times. What they needed was the ability to have some form of advance payment so that they could, on the fly, decide how to protect people, protect property, deal with the ongoing emotional crises that inevitably swell up in the time of an emergency, and the many other things that we can and can't imagine.
In fact, the department has been able to do that. We've pivoted from a “show us your receipts” approach to a “here's an advance” approach to supporting communities through crisis management, which then enables that community to act much more rapidly. They don't have to worry about whether or not they will be reimbursed for a particular expense.
Some of the stories I heard were incredible, like the Tsilhqot'in protecting their community in the middle of a forest fire raging around them and being able to, very quickly and rapidly, mobilize to keep the fire away from their perimeter using historical knowledge of fire management.
Those kinds of things are enabled when people don't worry about the money they're going to need to rent specialized equipment, to support volunteers or to do the kinds of activities that sometimes we can't imagine unless we've done that ourselves. This approach has been a real success story over the last year and a half.
We learned a lot by supporting communities through COVID. If you remember, in the early days of COVID the federal government needed to make money and resources available to communities so they could enable measures that would protect them from COVID. It proved to be very successful. In fact, we had reports from first nations communities that talked about the ability to protect life using that flexibility and honouring the knowledge that communities have.
Welcome to the witnesses.
Minister, this is a rather important meeting, so I would like to point something out. From the Auditor General's first report on emergency management on reserves in 2013 to the Auditor General's 2022 report on emergency management in first nations communities, a number of the findings haven't changed. That's why we've requested so many meetings with you.
We met with the deputy minister, Gina Wilson, in November, but it was also important for us to speak with you, because we all represent members of the population who are very concerned to see so many major gaps. First nations are really struggling, and although the government seems to have good intentions, it isn't acting on them in a meaningful way, unfortunately.
Three of the Auditor General's findings are especially noteworthy. First, Indigenous Services Canada did not provide the support first nations communities needed to manage emergencies such as floods and wildfires. These emergencies are happening more often and with greater intensity, mainly because of climate change, and first nations tend to be more vulnerable to them. Second, the department spent three and a half times more money on response and recovery than on preparedness and mitigation. That approach is less cost-effective, as everyone knows. Third, the Auditor General noted with anger and dismay that many of the 2022 findings were the same as they were a decade ago.
Thank you, by the way, for providing us with a somewhat more detailed action plan last week. Some progress has been made. It addresses issues I raised when we met in November, laying out clearer and more specific time frames. I can see that you've made some efforts.
I'd like you to respond to the points I mentioned. First, is the risk assessment under way, and above all, will it address the specific needs of the communities?
:
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Welcome, Madam Minister. Thank you so much for being here.
I think it's deplorable, unfortunately, that we have to be in this circumstance, first and foremost. For over a decade, it's been mentioned, this audit was nearing. That is the most troublesome aspect of this—the time we wait, the time indigenous people are waiting, and the amount of risk that these indigenous communities are suffering because of that time lost and the waiting that is occurring.
We should be ashamed of ourselves. That is, the government should be ashamed. These are people's lives. They are real people, beyond politics, beyond partisanship. I'm upset to see that this has become a partisan issue in many ways. I had hoped to see that Canadians have grown, and that the governments they elect have grown, but the fact remains that this is still an emerging emergency.
Canada is one of the wealthiest countries in the world. In the entire globe, Canada is one of the wealthiest places. You wouldn't know it, looking at first nations reserves in Canada. You would not know it. With promise after promise after promise, Madam Minister, this government continues to fail indigenous people. It's not just your government; I will take that point. Governments right across this country have failed indigenous people and continue to do that. The breach of these promises has a cost to it.
There's a reason I'm upset today. If this was the first time Canada had broken a promise, maybe indigenous people might give you a pass. This is over 150 years of broken promise after broken promise.
Indigenous people right now...just last Monday, Chief Jordna Hill declared a state of emergency in the Shamattawa First Nation in northern Manitoba. He explained at a press conference in response to several suicides in recent weeks, as well as a fire that destroyed the homes of eight families at a time when the community was down on fire equipment, that it was this government's fault.
They didn't have fire equipment, Madam Minister, because this government failed to adequately prepare and ensure that indigenous people had fire equipment.
Fire is not a matter of if; it's a matter of when. That's why there are insurance companies, but even insurers won't help these communities, so if the insurers won't and the government won't, who is going to help them? This needs to be fixed. I'm going to get to the point of what I recommend is a fix, and as a matter of fact it's your own department's recommendation.
Beyond that, Grand Chief Garrison Settee of the MKO, a political advocacy organization I'm certain you're familiar with, which represents 26 first nations in Manitoba, said what's unfolding is a product of “years of neglect”. This is someone you're supposed to be in a relationship with. You're supposed to ensure that these things aren't the case.
There were years of neglect, Madam Minister—not my words, but the words of first nations—by governments that are failing to financially support remote communities such as Shamattawa.
The question I have is, when will the government take this seriously? When will any government take this seriously? It is way too long this has been going on. Indigenous communities can't continue to do this by themselves. It's explicitly clear the federal government.... You talk about partnerships, but the federal government is responsible. Section 91(24) of the Constitution Act of this country says the federal government has responsibility for Indians and land reserves for Indians. Those lands are flooding; those lands are on fire, and those lands require the assistance of indigenous people to actually mitigate that, but they need this government to step up.
I want to return now to the previous meeting, on November 25, 2022, in regard to this audit. The deputy minister of indigenous services, Ms. Wilson, said:
I would like your support to ensure more resources to first nations for emergency management going forward. If parliamentarians were to approve increased resources to the department, we would be happy to administer them.
That's not all she said, though. After her ADM acknowledged that there was at least $358 million in need, but just $12 million in dedicated annual funding to the program just mentioned by Ms. Wilkinson, she was asked, Madam Minister, directly whether she was making the request for finances to achieve this, and she responded with “yes”. She confirmed that she spoke to you about this request, that she had asked you for the $358 million, a small amount of money, to go into the direct fund for first nations mitigation, into the first nation infrastructure fund, which currently sits at $12 million, nothing.
Twelve million dollars is nothing in an emergency. When I worked in emergency management in northern Alberta, $3 million was the cost of the houses we lost in just one community. For the entire first nation infrastructure fund, $12 million is an embarrassment. This is why we have these issues.
You can talk about the many pots of funding you allocate and you merge together. The reality is that the fund is way oversubscribed. You know it, Madam Minister, and your deputy ministers know it. It's oversubscribed. The emergencies are real.
My direct question is this: Will you take the advice of your deputy minister and, at the very least, increase the first nation infrastructure fund, which sits at $12 million, to $358 million, something she actually could—
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I'm getting to that, Mr. Chair.
I work closely with the department to advocate for the resources we need.
I will also say this. I wouldn't want confusion to arise around the $12 million that you're talking about, which is specifically for structural mitigation, and the money that we have set aside and are investing in infrastructure as a whole. They are different things.
When we're talking about house fires, those are not included in the structural mitigation money. There is a separate pot of money.
When we're talking about water, for example, or other civil engineering infrastructure projects, such as community centres or health centres, there is separate infrastructure spending for those, so the Government of Canada spends far more than $12 million on infrastructure in first nations. In fact, we have spent unprecedented amounts, as you know; however, we still have a huge gap.
Minister, a couple of things are striking to me about the conversation so far. One, hearing you talk, it sounds as though the government that has, in fact, been in place for eight years hasn't, in fact, been in place, because you are continually talking about all of us sharing some responsibility and how we're all accountable for this, as members of Parliament.
Your government has been in place for eight years. We had an audit in 2013 that identified many of these same problems. Your government has had eight years to try to address or fix those problems, and you're coming to us saying that you're an ally, that you're angry too and that you're supportive.
These are problems that you as minister are responsible for. You should be taking action on them, and action should have been taken long ago.
The other thing that's striking to me in this discussion is that we have a government now that always wants to measure its success by the amount of money it's spending. The Auditor General has found that if we were spending money proactively on emergency preparedness, we would actually be saving money on emergency response, and in fact, saving money overall. That is, spending money quite literally on preventing fires instead of putting out fires would save us money and reduce the negative impacts on communities. This notion underlines the problem that it's not just about money spent; it's also about management and about being proactive. Those are my comments.
Minister, I want to ask you specifically about page 14 of the audit. The Auditor General highlights the absence of service agreements in a number of cases. Clearly, given the interaction of federal and provincial responsibility when it comes to responding to these kinds of issues on indigenous communities, the federal government has a responsibility, but it will obviously likely need to benefit from co-operation with provinces.
In fact, in a number of provinces there are no service agreements in place to deal with emergency management in general or with wildfires. In one case the agreement was signed over 30 years ago and has not been updated. In four of six wildfire agreements, not all first nations communities in the relevant provinces are included.
Minister, you've said that you accept the findings of the Auditor General's report. Is your department proactively working to update and negotiate agreements, and could you give us an update on when we can expect to have agreements covering every province and territory and agreements that include all first nations communities?
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I'll give some high-level thoughts and then turn to the officials.
One of the big differences between this Liberal government and the previous one is that this Liberal government, when we were elected, put reconciliation at the core. In order to do that, we had to understand how to be a good partner, rather than how to be a controlling partner, quite frankly.
Sometimes, when you have all the money and resources, it's easy to slip into being the controlling partner. The best outcomes are coming from the work that we're doing collaboratively with first nations. Leaning into a cultural change within the department and the government as a whole puts indigenous self-determination at its core.
It's not just in emergency management. We have a new child welfare law, for example. We're in consultations now on self-determined health legislation. We're working on principles of co-development with first nation peoples, so that we don't unintentionally impose legislation on people that isn't going to fit.
This is really a cultural shift within the federal government. It's difficult. As our colleague, Mr. Desjarlais, mentioned, it is a colonial country with a history of determining for indigenous people what they will live through and endure, rather than asking indigenous people how best to support their own self-determination and healing.
It is a process, but it is one that I'm profoundly thrilled to be part of.
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It's an actual policy change. That, in itself, is a formalized approach. It isn't something that we're considering on a case-by-case basis.
I will say, though, that if a particular community doesn't want that approach, that is certainly within their prerogative as well. Some communities, for example, have sufficient resources to manage a crisis without needing an advanced payment.
That is a huge cultural shift. It's built on trust, actually. If you don't trust people, you need to see every receipt. If you trust people, you can do audits in a way that is far more respectful of the relationship.
We're not on the ground, as officials. In particular, deep within departments, they are not on the ground to understand that, for example, a team of 20 volunteers that has been working 24 hours a day might need to buy T-shirts. I'm not even saying it would or wouldn't have been covered in the past, but to an auditor or to a person reimbursing on a receipt basis, for example, that might look like a silly expense.
For the many first nations leaders I've talked to, keeping their volunteers engaged and connected is super important for being able to continue to, for example, prepare the site so that the fire doesn't breach the wall. We can't necessarily understand on a granular basis what goes into that.
Having been a professional working in not-for-profit, I can tell you that keeping your volunteers happy is a critical ingredient in keeping your organization running.
That flexibility allows communities to make those decisions on the fly, without worrying about whether they are going to get covered for it.
We are now looking to be a supportive partner in those kinds of decisions and doing so in an accountable way together.
I have to say that I'm a bit disappointed. I came here today with the intention of working constructively, but here we are witnessing partisan comment after partisan comment. We're getting finger pointing because one government was supposedly worse than the other, but the truth is that they were both bad. After eight years in power, the Liberals haven't done much to improve things, and frankly, it's shameful.
Minister, you accused members of voting against the budget. It's not that we don't agree with the amount of funding; it's that we don't agree with how you administer that funding. It's clear from the Auditor General's reports that we're right to take issue with your budgets and the way you administer them.
Let's talk about your budget. You spent only half of your funding, and you say it has to do with how long everything takes. How long does it take to provide water pumps so that communities can fight fires? Forgive me for saying that it shouldn't take 10 years and that there's something wrong if it does.
Can you tell me how long it will be until communities like the Atikamekw community of Manawan, which is just north of my riding, will have all the equipment they need to fight fires? As we all know, those fires are more and more frequent. I'd like a time frame, please.
:
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
I want to return to this topic and the funding of the structural mitigation fund.
Madam Minister, perhaps your officials could look for data related to that and the conversation they had directly with you on that. I want to comment on what structural racism really is, because I think that is the big piece that's missing, not only in your attitude present in this committee, but also in dealing with the nature of the severity of this. It's a severe topic.
We're trying to centre indigenous and first nations people, and twice now you've commented on Stephen Harper. I agree, and I've agreed that he's part of this problem, but so is your government. That's the piece you're not recognizing. Indigenous people—any victims of violence—need to ensure that the one who perpetrated that violence understands that violence in a really important and intimate way, because indigenous people have given a lot to this country not to have this kind of disrespect. When the Auditor General says for over a decade that this has been an issue, and you say there's no problem; don't look here; we need to find a better solution....
Indigenous people right across this country feel that this ministry, in particular, is out of touch, and we need to find creative ways to acknowledge that yes, we've failed. We're not saying to fire anybody. We're saying agree to that fact, so we can recognize what the real solution is here.
The solution wasn't to divide the ministry from INAC to Crown-Indigenous Relations and ISC and to have indigenous people sort out the mess, and to tell them to go into the labyrinth and try to find this in the ministry. No. I went through that mess for eight years as a national director for the Métis—
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Thank you very much, Chair.
I thank the minister for being with us here today with officials from the department.
I'm very encouraged to hear about this innovation with advanced payments. I highly encourage it as a former commercial banker. Cash flow is a game-changer, especially when we're trying to address emergency situations, other equipment needs and so on.
I'm a long-time member of this committee, and I recall the late Michael Ferguson, a former auditor general, and his plea to this committee to make this issue a priority, to press the government on reconciliation and to provide outcomes to solving critical crisis situations on first nations reserves.
To that note, I'd like to ask the minister what has changed. Have we reacted in that vein? I'm thinking of the budgets we've had in the past, 2019 and so on. Have we made a difference here in putting money towards these issues?
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While I continue my questions, maybe someone can get back to me and tell me exactly what page, unless you have it in front of you and unless I missed it, which is very possible.
Actually, it's 50% that don't have actual targets set.
While Ms. Gideon is looking for that, I just want to get back.... You talked about how the money is clearly not, or doesn't seem to be, in the estimates to cover all.
Leaving this meeting, who specifically on the team is going to be saying that they will be accountable and responsible for ensuring that these infrastructure items, and other items highlighted in the report, are actually acted upon?
We asked the minister, and it was like...it's all of us. It's not all of us. It's someone from your department.
Who's that going to be? Is that going to be the deputy minister?
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I want to get back to the departmental results. I'm going to quote right from the government website: “These reports provide details on departmental priorities expected results and related resource requirements for the upcoming fiscal year”.
Again, there's not a single item in there from this horrendous study, listed as a departmental priority.
I go to Peter Drucker, who talks about not being able to improve something if you can't measure it.
We had Mr. Desjarlais trying to find out who's accountable for all this, and all we're getting back is word salad, or, “It's not us.” How are we ever going to get by these roadblocks if no one's ever responsible, no one's ever accountable and it's always someone else's fault?
I guess it's Harper's fault, of course, but that's a given.
How are we going to get past this? We have your own departmental plan, which doesn't list this as a priority, and the response is, we have a different study.