:
Welcome to meeting number 17 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Public Accounts. Pursuant to Standing Order 108(3)(g), the committee is meeting today to study the Public Accounts of Canada 2021.
Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of November 25, 2021. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application.
[Translation]
Pursuant to the directive of the Board of Internal Economy of March 10, 2022, all those attending the meeting today must wear a mask, except for members in their seats during parliamentary proceedings.
To ensure the meeting proceeds smoothly, I have a few pointers for witnesses and members.
Wait for me to call your name before you speak. If you are attending the meeting by Zoom, click on the microphone icon so we can hear your voice. Mute when you are not speaking.
[English]
Interpretation is available for those on Zoom. You have the choice at the bottom of your screen of floor, English or French. Those in the room can use the earpiece and select the desired channel.
I will remind you that all comments should be addressed through the chair.
[Translation]
When they wish to speak, members present in the room must raise their hand, while those using Zoom must use the “raise hand” function. The committee clerk and I will make every effort to follow the speaking order. Thank you to the members for their patience and understanding in this regard.
[English]
In accordance with our routine motion, I'm informing the committee that all witnesses have completed the required connection test in advance of the meeting.
I'd now like to welcome our witnesses. Our list includes, from the Office of the Auditor General, Karen Hogan, Auditor General of Canada; Etienne Matte, principal; and Chantale Perreault, principal.
From the Office of the Comptroller General of Canada, we have Roch Huppé, Comptroller General of Canada; Monia Lahaie, assistant comptroller general, financial management sector; and Diane Peressini, executive director, government accounting policy and reporting.
From the Department of Finance, we have Michael Sabia, deputy minister; Nicholas Leswick, assistant deputy minister, economic and fiscal policy branch; and Evelyn Dancey, assistant deputy minister.
Witnesses will have five minutes to make their opening statement. I understand we have statements from Ms. Hogan as well as Mr. Huppé, so I will call on Ms. Hogan to begin.
You have five minutes. Thank you.
I want to start by acknowledging that I am on the unceded traditional territory of the Algonquin Anishinaabe people. As this is a virtual hearing and participants may be spread across different locations, I want to pay my respects to indigenous people from all nations across Canada.
With me today are Chantal Perreault and Etienne Matte, financial audit principals. We are pleased to have the opportunity to discuss our audit of the Government of Canada's consolidated financial statements for fiscal year 2020‑2021.
The government's financial statements are one of its key accountability documents. Our audit of these statements provides information that helps Parliament exercise its oversight of the government, promotes transparency, and encourages good financial management.
This year, our audit of the government's financial statements involved most of our 200 financial auditors. It is the largest of the audits conducted by my office.
You will find our audit opinion on the Government of Canada's consolidated financial statements starting on page 57 of volume 1 of the Public Accounts of Canada 2021.
We found that you can rely on the information contained in the financial statements. In all material respects, the information is presented fairly and conforms with generally accepted accounting principles for the private sector. In other words, we issued a clean opinion.
This year, exceptionally, our opinion includes two dates. This is because the government amended its 2020‑2021 consolidated financial statements after it had approved them. The amendments were the result of a significant event that occurred later but before the statements were tabled in Parliament. When the government amends its financial statements, auditing standards require my office to perform additional work to assess whether the amendments were recorded appropriately. The second date in our audit opinion represents the completion of our work on the amendments, which we determined were appropriately recorded.
[English]
Our opinion this year also includes an “Emphasis of Matter” paragraph. It highlights the significant impacts of the COVID-19 pandemic on certain amounts presented in the government's consolidated financial statements and related notes.
Every year we provide Parliament with a commentary report that highlights important information about the results of our federal financial audits. This year, the commentary provides an overview of the government's spending in response to the COVID-19 pandemic and discusses possible effects on the government's finances over the coming years. The commentary also describes the additional work we performed to respond to a motion from Parliament.
As in previous years, the commentary raises observations about pay administration and National Defence's inventory. These are recurring issues that we continue to monitor.
For pay administration, we once again carried out detailed audit tests of salary transactions processed through the Phoenix pay system. We found that almost half of the employees in our sample were paid incorrectly at least once during the 2020-21 fiscal year. Despite the significant number of individual pay errors, overpayments and underpayments partially offset each other. At the individual level, it's important to understand that these underlying problems and pay errors continue to affect thousands of people who are being paid incorrectly.
We have been reporting for 18 years on National Defence's difficulties in recording its inventory. National Defence continues to implement the 10-year action plan it submitted to this committee in 2016. We did not see an overall improvement in the rate of errors in our sampling. In our view, errors in reported quantities and values are likely to continue until internal controls are strengthened and the department's plan is fully implemented.
The commentary also provides insights into challenging areas. This year these insights are about cybersecurity and advances in the use of data in federal organizations.
Mr. Chair, I would like to thank the senior officials and staff of the many departments, agencies and Crown corporations involved in preparing the government's financial statements. We appreciate their collaboration during these challenging times.
This concludes my opening remarks. We would be pleased to answer your questions.
:
Thank you, Mr. Chair and members of the committee, for this opportunity to discuss the Public Accounts of Canada 2021.
I am pleased to be speaking to you from the traditional unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinaabe people.
The Public Accounts of Canada 2021 include the consolidated financial statements for fiscal year 2020‑2021, which ended March 31, 2021, in addition to other unaudited financial information.
I am pleased to note that, for the twenty-third consecutive year, the Auditor General has released an unmodified or “clean” audit opinion.
[English]
This demonstrates once again the accuracy of Canada's financial reporting and the Government of Canada's commitment as an institution to the responsible financial management and oversight of taxpayer dollars.
I would like to thank the financial management community of the Government of Canada for their excellent work in helping to prepare the public accounts. Its members are responsible for maintaining detailed records of the transactions in their departmental accounts and maintaining strong internal controls.
I would also like to recognize my colleagues at the Department of Finance and the Receiver General for their ongoing support and co-operation in producing the public accounts.
Last but not least, I would like to thank the Office of the Auditor General for its continued co-operation and assistance.
[Translation]
Allow me to present a few financial highlights from the documents.
The government posted an annual deficit of $327.7 billion, compared to a deficit of $39.4 billion the previous year, which was $26.4 billion less than that projected in Budget 2021.
[English]
One of the main drivers compared with the prior year relates to program expenses excluding net actuarial losses. Those increased by $270.1 billion, or close to 80%, from 2020, largely reflecting transfers to individuals, businesses and other levels of government under the economic response plan.
[Translation]
The Public Accounts of Canada 2021 were tabled on December 14, 2021. The timing of the tabling was a result of the need to ensure that all the necessary adjustments were made to the government's consolidated financial statements in response to a September 29, 2021 court decision, as well as factoring in the time necessary to print the books.
This court decision altered the estimated contingent liability that was reported in the original financial statements completed on September 9. The government considered the impact of the court ruling and concluded that it required an adjustment to its financial statements. Accordingly, the financial statements were reopened and adjusted after the closing entry was received from Indigenous Services Canada. This is explained in Volume 1, Section 2, Note 22, subsequent events.
This revision is aligned with best practice, as well as public sector accounting standards and Canadian auditing standards. In fact, standards require the Auditor to consider facts up to the time that the financial statements are issued.
The Auditor General then audited the revised estimated contingent liability and dual dated her audit report date on November 19, 2021, to reflect the extension of her audit.
The Public Accounts of Canada 2021 were then finalized, sent for printing, and tabled on December 14, 2021.
[English]
While this court decision necessarily delayed the publication of the public accounts, I would note that under the Financial Administration Act, the is required to table the public accounts by December 31, or, if the House of Commons is not sitting during that period, within the first 15 days once the House reconvenes.
I would also like to note that it is not unusual for the public accounts to be tabled in December in years when there is a fall election. In 2019, for example, they were tabled on December 12. In 2015, they were tabled on December 7.
Finally, Mr. Chair, as you know, the government committed to undertake a study of potential changes to the Public Accounts of Canada. We received preliminary feedback from the Library of Parliament on the presentation and format of the Public Accounts of Canada and have started engaging key stakeholders on potential changes to enhance their clarity and usability. Any proposed changes will be carefully examined to ensure that the government’s financial information continues to support transparency and accountability to parliamentarians and Canadians.
[Translation]
As this project advances, the government will continue to work closely with parliamentarians and stakeholders.
This concludes my remarks. Thank you for your attention.
[English]
We'd be happy to take any questions.
Thank you.
:
Thank you very much, Mr. Huppé.
[English]
I appreciate your opening remarks.
Committee members, I'm just going to turn to some committee business for one moment. Because of the votes, we've lost some crucial time here. I'm informed by the clerk that we have an opportunity to extend this meeting by 30 minutes to 1:30. We have translation services available. I will, of course, need unanimous consent for this to happen, so I'm looking for that consent, please.
We will only be hearing from witnesses. There'll be no other committee business to discuss, so that time will not be used to vote on any motions. It will be limited strictly to hearing from witnesses.
With that, Clerk, I can't see the room. Could you see if there's any dissension or if we have unanimous consent to continue by 30 minutes to 1:30?
:
As a result of substantially improving the deficit track that the government laid out both in the past and certainly in the most recent budget, the financial requirements of the Government of Canada are declining. As a result of that, needless to say, our debt management strategy reflects that because we need to borrow less.
The first important thing that has changed is a reflection of what I'll call the normalization of the government's fiscal position as the COVID crisis recedes is that those financial requirements are coming down and coming down quite substantially. That's number one.
Number two is that the other thing that we are—and have been indeed—attempting to accomplish over the last while has been to extend the term of the debt portfolio itself so that, in future years, the government can benefit from what are quite low interest rates during the preceding period and even the current period today.
We continue to want to term out the debt to get the benefit of those low interest rates for as long as we can, as we try to lock in the benefit for the overall fiscal picture of the government for as long as we can. As a result of those efforts, the overall term on average of the government's debt portfolio has lengthened from when we began this work, which was, at that point, about a five-year term. Now, it's quite close to a seven-year term.
Those are the two big drivers of our debt management strategy, lower requirements and longer duration.
Let me begin by thanking the witnesses for being here. As my colleague said, it is nice to see witnesses in person. I would also like to thank the other witnesses who are joining us via Zoom.
Let me get straight to the point.
Upon careful review of the Public Accounts of Canada, we noted that Crown corporations do not report information the same way as departments do. Let me explain and provide an example.
In Volume III of the Public Accounts of Canada, departments and agencies are required to provide, for each main category of service, a detailed list of all payments to individuals and organizations of $100,000 or more. Professional and special services are in section 3. Acquisition of land, building and works are in section 4. Transfer payments are in section 6. This list provides the organization name and the city where they are headquartered. The departments are required to provide this information.
My first question is probably from the officials from the Treasury Board Secretariat. Why are Crown corporation not required to report the same amount of detailed information, although they represent a major source of federal government funding?
:
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
I want to thank all of the witnesses for being present today. I want to thank especially those who are here in person. It's a delight to see all of you here. Welcome to our committee.
I want to begin by reflecting the comments from the Auditor General on some of the financial control weaknesses related to the pay administration system. This is something that's been going on for a very long time. I continue to get phone calls from regular folks, from Canadians who are growing more and more concerned with the fact and reality that we continue to have this immense problem. I've spoken to members of our public service, including PSAC, which has echoed these concerns.
I would be remiss not to mention them and to ensure that we find a better, more transparent process for ensuring that employees who work for us, who do good work on behalf of the Government of Canada, continue to have that support. I think that's something they deserve and something that's critical to our ongoing efforts to make sure that this place works well.
For the Auditor General, can you explain how the audited process led to the findings of the HR-to-pay process and when that process began? More particularly, from this audit, how many outstanding pay action requests were there?
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I will likely ask Etienne or Chantale to add a little about the outstanding pay action requests.
About the audit, I can tell you that we began in 2016, when the Phoenix pay system was implemented and the entire HR-to-pay process was changed within the federal government. Our entire audit approach needed to change because of weaknesses in the IT system and so many changes around the manual processes feeding into that IT system. Since then, we've been doing detailed transactions of actual pay for employees instead of relying on automated computer controls.
This year's audit found that 47% of the individuals in our sample still had an error in their pay at least once during the fiscal year compared with about 51% the year prior. What's concerning is that about 41% of those people were still waiting for their pay to be adjusted at year-end. What we looked at then was the pay action requests. There will always be requests in the system to have adjustments to pay, but what was particularly concerning was that a large portion, almost 20%, of those pay action requests have been outstanding for more than three years. Individual public servants have been waiting a very long time to have their pay adjusted and be accurate.
When it comes to actual pay action requests outstanding, I think I might ask one of my colleagues to give some more details on the actual numbers, if you'd like them.
Ms. Hogan, I want to get back to the tabling dates of the public accounts.
C.D. Howe, last year I think, gave the federal government an “F”—compared to the provinces getting an A or B—on fiscal reporting, mostly around the delays in tabling the public accounts.
Do you see an issue with them being tabled so late, especially around transparency and accountability, and especially to Parliament?
:
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
I want to now pick up on questioning related to some of the emergency benefits that the government rolled out and to talk specifically about some of the instances where I believe misuse of the funds occurred. I believe Canadians would agree.
I want to highlight an issue that began in my city of Edmonton and is related to a company called CESSCO. CESSCO locked out their employees. They were given a notice. They've been locked out for over 300 days now. I think it's something around 400 days now that they've been locked out.
During that period of time, CESSCO applied for and received assistance through the CEWS program, the Canada emergency wage subsidy program. The program itself was intended to ensure workers could continue to operate and that workers were to get the benefit from this.
In this particular instance, this company did not provide that benefit to any of their employees. Rather, it locked them out and then hired scab labour in order to accommodate that deficit at a lower wage. To continue in that vein, that same company then paid over $2 billion to its shareholders between April and September. This is all well documented and was reported on in the news. However, the company continued to take in the benefit.
To all the Canadians whose taxes for the purpose of protecting workers went to a for-profit company that kicked them out, what do we tell those members and how can we get justice for the Canadian taxpayer when for-profit companies walk out with $2 billion? What does that process look like? You mentioned a process to my honourable colleague from the Bloc, a process for remedying damages. How do we remedy this kind of damage by private companies?
That's for finance.
I'm going to split my time with Mr. McCauley.
I have just a couple of hopefully quick questions here.
For Mr. Huppé, when we look at the reopening of the account, it strikes me as strange because there certainly have been material events that have occurred in the last 20, 30 or 50 years, yet this is the first time we've reopened the books.
I'm curious. Were none of those other events that have happened—and we could go through them—over the last 50 or 100 years...? We've never, to my knowledge, reopened those books. What made this particular tribunal decision have so much more importance than, say, September 11?
:
That's a very interesting question. It's one that I think the government would be in the best position to answer.
There are two different kinds of valuations that you can get from an actuary. One is for accounting purposes, which we look at and consider when we issue an opinion on the Canada pension plan. One is for funding purposes. It's that funding purpose one that really does give an independent perspective to the government, based on actuarial determinations about life expectancy, inflation and so many inputs, about whether or not the Canada pension plan is sufficient to meet its future needs.
I think that would be a better place to ask the question and get a good answer.
It is clear—we see it even within the public service pension plan—that there's an intergenerational issue with so large a number of the population getting ready to access or already accessing pension plans that are out there and fewer people joining the workforce to continue to input to them. The sufficiency of the funding is a good question to ask the government about.
The reason I bring it up is that when you look at net, we are first. When you look at gross, which is more apples to apples, we drop to third. In the OECD, we drop from eight to 29. It is quite significant.
I realize it's politics, but I find it a bit misleading to the public when we cherry-pick numbers to present to the public. I appreciate that you're saying it is not as easy as is being put forward.
Ms. Hogan, I just want to go back to you.
The funding issues for your office have been well publicized. I'm just wondering for how many years the Office of the Auditor General has requested budget increases and added resources. How many years have you been declined for that?
Do you know the reasons why those requests were declined?
:
Thank you, Chair. Thank you to the witnesses.
Before I get into questions, and I'm sure this is just a simple error, Chair, but I do think that we need to follow our routine proceedings that we've passed collectively as a committee. Today, Chair, Mr. McCauley in the first round was given a total of eight minutes. He was allotted six but given a total of eight. He's very happy about that but, again, paying attention to the routine proceedings....
Even with the point of order he was at seven minutes, 30 seconds, so a minute and a half over. In his second round he was allotted five. It was clearly close to six minutes. Liberal members along with the Bloc and the NDP have been kept very close to time. I would just urge, Chair, that we pay attention to routine proceedings and give members allotted time and allow them to ask questions without going very overboard in terms of time.
:
If it needs to be a matter of record to the committee, you can see the comparison between G7 countries on page 37. We outline the mechanics of going from the accumulated deficit basis, which is the debt metric you see in the public accounts and what the federal government reports on in its updates and budgets: how you get from there to this definition of “total government net debt”, which is what the IMF uses to compare on an internationally comparable basis.
I admit that there are a lot of gymnastics here, to be quite honest, because of the diversity in terms of how governments operate at the sovereign level and the sub-sovereign levels, how they fund their social security schemes and how they fund their internal public service pension and benefits schemes.
The IMF has to do a series of mechanical adjustments to level-set all these G7 countries. You can see those mechanics on page 38. The big elements here, though, are accounting for public sector pensions and benefits, so again, internal to government pensions and benefits, and also, as the member opposite spoke to, the inclusion of the CPP/QPP assets.
A fundamental issue there is that most other G7 countries don't fund their social security schemes, so they take the equivalent of what is the CPP premium and they bring it into their income statement, effectively managing these social security schemes on a pay-as-you-go basis. To establish this level of comparability, the IMF, in a kind of distorted way, takes that into consideration and brings the assets of the CPP/QPP into the accounts of Canada in order to compare these across G7 countries.
Understand that your target of criticism, because you have to ask yourself whether the assets of the CPP/QPP would be available to the government in a time of distress, and I think clearly they.... Well, I'll leave it for some future government to decide—
Voices: Oh, oh!
Mr. Nicholas Leswick: —but just on the algorithmic mathematical principle here, I think we could probably appreciate that we're trying to establish this comparability, which is why they're taken into consideration to achieve this bottom line. I understand where others come out to in terms of the commentary, but that's just the mechanical explanation of what's going on there.
I would like to hear from Ms. Hogan, the Auditor General of Canada, regarding the reporting requirements of Crown corporations.
Looking a bit more closely at the regulations, Crown corporations are required to report their financial statements in accordance with generally recognized accounting principles. It would however be possible, through regulations, to add accounting principles that would require financial statements to be reported.
I would like to know whether the Auditor General believes it would be possible to use regulations to require the disclosure of more detailed financial statements. In other words, using the same example, I am referring to releasing the names of organizations that received more than $100,000 in funding and the location of their headquarters. Could that be done through regulations?
:
That is an ongoing process in the public accounts. The number is about $3.7 billion of overpayments. A lot of that, the majority of that, about $3 billion, is from the employment insurance system, and the emergency measures that were taken there. The remainder, about $700 million, is from the CERB.
All of that is subject to ongoing auditing and verification by both Revenue Canada and the Department of Employment and Social Development with respect to the EI component. Once those things are verified, the usual processes will then set in place between Revenue Canada and individuals who may have received these payments in error.
While I wasn't there at the beginning of these programs, as the member now knows, these programs were designed, because of the importance of speed. They were based on an attestation from the individual who was receiving the benefits. Honestly, based on an attestation system, it's not really surprising that there will be instances of overpayments. How that gets handled...I think those situations have to be handled carefully and sensitively to the circumstances of the individuals. I believe that's the approach that the government will be taking with this.
:
Mr. Chair, I think the member is talking about a period of time that is beyond the period of time for which we would make projections. I'll back up and provide the following answer.
Obviously, we're living in a period right now, with energy prices being what they are, when those inflows of revenues are substantially increasing our revenues and also the revenues of a number of provinces. Over time, as the world evolves towards a net-zero world—and obviously that's a world headed toward 2050 and there's a substantial period of time between now and then—as you say, what are we doing about revenues? My answer to that is that over time, as fossil fuels wind down, one of the challenges Canada will have is to develop alternative engines of growth.
I'll give you some numbers. Fossil fuels used to be about 34% of business investment in Canada. Recently, they've been about 10% or 11%. That has to be replaced by the building of new engines of growth, and from those engines of growth there will be revenues.
We don't regard the trend toward net zero as something that is necessarily a threat to the revenue stability of the federal government. The challenge is building the alternatives that will drive growth and prosperity in Canada as we do evolve to a net-zero economy.
By and large, yes, they do. There are some timing differences in how things are reported and how they are reflected in the public accounts. The public accounts treat this issue.... The accounting structure is that it's based on the period in which revenues are received and expenses are incurred, so when they are assessed or when they are disbursed. Because of that, that does lead to, as I say, some timing differences. Those timing differences will resolve themselves over time. For the year 2022-23, they should disappear given that we will be providing climate action incentive payments on a quarterly basis, which will resolve some of these timing differences.
The second thing is that will over time resolve itself and, I think, in the very near term. As you know, the vast bulk of those payments are made and that gets you very close to the issue of revenue-neutral. There are some payments to be made to small and medium businesses, to farmers and to indigenous Canadians. They are in the works. They need to be done. As those payments are made and we resolve these timing differences, then members of Parliament will see that this is operating on a purely revenue-neutral basis.
I want to pick up my colleagues' lines of questioning. The first is with respect to the climate action incentive payments and the supposed neutrality of the carbon tax.
William Shakespeare wrote that “a rose by any other name would smell as sweet.” When we look on page 18, we see that the 2020 proceed used for federal programming, as of March 31, 2021, was $98 million. I think supporting federal programming can be translated into spending, and $98 million represents more than tiny to me.
Could the Department of Finance please comment on that?
:
Our concerns around National Defence's management of its inventory and asset pooled items has been ongoing for many years—for 18 years, to be exact. The department submitted to this committee a detailed 10-year action plan to try to address the concerns with inventory management back in 2016. They are on track for the items in that plan.
We do monitor it every year. However, there are some really significant items that are yet to come, including the implementation of a new system and some bar-coding of inventory, which will help with inventory movement and management. Every year we do attend inventory counts. We do detailed testing of inventory. We continue to see an error in at least one in every four items that we sample, from a quantity perspective, a valuation perspective or a classification perspective.
It is our belief that until the internal controls around inventory management as well as the implementation of all the elements in the 10-year action plan are done, these errors are likely to continue. Hence, we will continue to monitor it.
:
Thank you. I imagine there are a number of ways of going about it, whether by regulations, through Treasury Board, or by legislation.
I would also point out that Crown corporations account for a third of assets, liabilities and expenses in the 2020-2021 financial statements. So it is very important for Quebecers and Canadians to be able to access that information if they wish. It is a question of transparency and accountability. In saying this, I am looking at my colleagues. Achieving that could be our legacy as members of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts.
In the minute remaining, I would like to ask a celebrity in our midst a question.
Mr. Sabia, I have followed your work in Quebec for a number of years and I am delighted to see you here.
You talked about scenarios you developed at the finance department as to rising interest rates, and in particular the inflation anticipated in the coming months. Last week, in fact, I was at a meeting of the Standing Committee on Finance attended by officials from the Bank of Canada, which is predicting higher inflation rates.
Did you consider these predictions regarding the rate of inflation and, potentially, the drop...
:
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Now I would like to turn my last line of questioning to the Treasury Board representative related to my first line of questioning on the pay system and our Auditor General's suggestions since 2016 to improve the system and the many hundreds of thousands of pay requests that the government is currently sitting on and the employees who are suffering for it.
My question is quite frank. What steps will the Treasury Board take in order to reduce the number of outstanding pay action requests? Maybe you have an example of how we've been able to take it down just this last year from 300,000 to 250,000, which is still a ridiculous number, but what steps are in place and what confidence do Canadians have, particularly employees, that these will be successful?
:
I'm sorry. I just have limited time.
During this new portion, will Treasury Board consult with PSAC, for example, to avoid this problem?
To rewind here, this is the exact situation that Treasury Board got itself into the first time when we introduced the Phoenix pay system.. Not consulting with workers resulted in a direct impact to workers. We're still trying to clean it up.
To be frank, I don't see those measures helping. This is still a huge amount. It's over 200,000 pay requests. It's not quick enough. You need to hire far more advisers. I'd consider paying damages at this point. These are real concerns.
Would TBS consider working with folks who are actually on the other end of these pay systems in order to get it right? My fear is we're going to have another pilot program that's going to increase these—