:
Good morning, everyone. Happy Tuesday!
I call this meeting to order.
Welcome to meeting number 144 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates, widely known as the mighty OGGO, also widely known as, truly, the only committee that matters.
As a reminder, everyone, please keep your headphones away from your microphones at all times.
Also as a reminder, ladies, this committee has passed a motion that any requested documents, emails, etc., are to be returned to the committee within 21 days.
Colleagues, there will be three rounds, and then we will take a break for the next witness.
At the very end, I will have a couple of really quick housekeeping items around budget and setting a date for witnesses.
We welcome back, Ms. Boudreau, from the comptroller general's office.
Do you have an opening statement for us? The floor is yours for five minutes. Please go ahead.
:
Good morning, everyone. Thank you for this opportunity to speak to the committee about the federal grants and contributions process.
Today, I'm joined by Monia Lahaie, assistant comptroller general, financial management sector, and Nicole Thomas, director general, costing, charging and transfer payments.
As Comptroller General, I am responsible for providing functional direction and assurance in financial management, internal audit, investment planning, procurement, project management, as well as the management of real property, materiel and transfer payments throughout the federal government.
Federal grants and contributions are governed by the Treasury Board Policy on Transfer Payments, which outlines the roles, responsibilities and obligations for the management of transfer payments. Its objective is to ensure that transfer payment programs meet government priorities, deliver results for Canadians and are managed with integrity, transparency and accountability.
Control mechanisms are in place throughout the process, starting with the requirement for departments to obtain authorization-in-principle for government programs by tabling a memorandum to cabinet.
[English]
Departments must then seek the approval of the Treasury Board for new program terms and conditions through the Treasury Board submission process.
The terms and conditions set out the parameters under which transfer payments may be made for a given program, including objectives; funding; results; eligibility criteria, such as eligible recipients, activities or initiatives; and expenditures.
The role of the Treasury Board Secretariat is to ensure that the terms and conditions align with cabinet direction and the policy and directive on transfer payments as well as other applicable policies or frameworks—the policy on results, gender-based analysis plus and the policy on official languages.
The secretariat provides feedback to departments during the review process to ensure compliance with Treasury Board policy.
Once the Treasury Board approves the submission, deputy heads play a key role in the delivery and management of transfer payments. They are responsible for ensuring that grant and contribution programs are accessible, usable and understandable for applicants and recipients.
Deputy heads ensure that departmental practices and procedures are in place and look for opportunities to standardize within the department and support the administration of grants and contributions, ensuring that requirements are proportionate to the risks involved.
Deputy heads are responsible for monitoring compliance with the policy and its supporting directives, including through periodic audits and other assessments, to ensure their effective implementation. This includes ensuring that the administrative requirements on recipients are proportionate to the risk level. Monitoring, reporting and auditing should reflect the risks specific to the program, the value of funding and the risk profile of the recipient.
Departmental audits and evaluations help identify best practices, areas for improvement and whether the program is achieving its intended outcomes. The results are used to inform future program design and policy adjustments.
Once the recipients of transfer payment programs enter into a funding agreement with the federal government, this agreement outlines the requirements for the funding, including reporting requirements, payment schedules and performance expectations. This allows the government to monitor the use of funds and ensure that the program is on track to achieve its objectives.
[Translation]
To improve transparency, departments are required by law and policy to proactively publish grants and contributions over $25,000 that have been awarded. This means that information on who received funding, how much and for what purpose is made available to the public, including on the Open Government website. In addition, audit and evaluation reports on grant and contribution programs are posted on departmental websites. These practices help maintain public trust and ensure accountability in the management of public funds.
As Comptroller General, I support all of these processes by ensuring that these policies and sound practices are in place, by overseeing and monitoring government-wide compliance with the Treasury Board Policy on Transfer Payments, and by providing leadership in the development of the community of federal practitioners involved in the design, delivery and management of transfer payment programs.
I would be pleased to answer any questions committee members may have.
Once again, to the TBS and Ms. Boudreau, welcome. Thanks to you and your colleagues for coming here, and thank you for your opening remarks and testimony.
I'm going to take a bit of a step back. I'll be framing my question around two themes. One is around transfer payments and the other is around internal audit.
Starting with transfer payments, I understand that there are policies around transfer payments and there are directives around transfer payments. For average Canadians like me, can you explain the difference between policies around transfer payments and directives around transfer payments? Who are they targeted at, who is responsible for them and why? Also, why is there a need for a difference between a policy and a directive?
Thank you for that.
The policy is really focused on the roles and responsibilities of the various players within that space and outlines—again, in the context of transfer payments—what the roles and responsibilities are in the design and implementation of transfer payments. In the case of transfer payments, that is the role of the Treasury Board, the Treasury Board Secretariat, ministers and deputy heads.
Then, when we move into the directive on transfer payments, that then provides additional information on how to operationalize your transfer payment programs and the considerations in that regard. That's really for departmental senior managers who are involved in the delivery of transfer payment programs, and in the design as well, to talk about what the requirements are for program terms and conditions and also what the requirements are for funding agreements. While we don't specify what goes into the funding agreements, we do give considerations for departments as to what we would expect them to include in those agreements.
:
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Ms. Thomas, the results of the internal audit conducted at Environment and Climate Change Canada last June reveal serious shortcomings in its grants and contribution allocation processes, even for larger amounts that required ministerial approval.
I'd like to draw your attention to the project approval process for the Strategic Innovation Fund's Net Zero Accelerator initiative, which is described as particularly lengthy and complex. Page 8 of the 2024 fourth report of the Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development states:
A project of more than $50 million also requires Treasury Board approval, concurrence letters from ministers of other concerned departments, and cabinet approval, which can be fast-tracked with a letter to the Prime Minister.
This kind of wording leaves the door somewhat open to many interpretations. In a context where various Sustainable Development Technology Canada programs are admittedly administered and benchmarked in sometimes creative ways, how can we ensure that decisions, even when the minister or Prime Minister are involved, are made impartially, without the appearance of collusion, political manoeuvring or favouritism? How do we ensure total impartiality and neutrality in awarding these contributions and grants of over $50 million?
:
I can start by explaining the process described by the Comptroller General.
When programs and program terms and conditions are approved by Treasury Board, whether it's a grant or a contribution, we're going to have information about who can access the fund and for what purposes, that is, what objectives they want to achieve with these programs.
Subsequently, the process for awarding contracts or entering into agreements with recipients is managed within the departments, with the deputy ministers. Part of that is to have all the internal monitoring required to make sure that the business processes have all the necessary controls and approvals, so that they're compliant and consistent and everyone follows the same processes.
:
It would be impossible to have her full attention, because she's giving half of her attention, currently, to the transport file.
Now, I know that, in 2019, the Treasury Board issued further guidelines, yet we're still getting the lapses we're seeing here through the ECCC audit. A couple of months ago, we received feedback that Global Affairs Canada, through its audit, was also having some problem with the oversight of the distribution of funds.
I have to take it back again to the . I'm asking whether you believe she's giving her full attention to the oversight of these grants and contributions and whether she's been as accessible to you. I believe it would be very difficult for her to achieve this, given, frankly, how thin she's being spread across departments. As I said, we really seem to have a part-time president right now, given the additional duties she's been given.
Given that we have these lapses at ECCC and Global Affairs Canada despite your issuing of the guidelines in 2019, I'll ask you this one more time: Do you really believe Canadian taxpayers are getting value for money?
:
Again, it's unfortunate, because the results we are seeing through—thank goodness—these audits are indicating that the oversight is simply not there at this time.
As I mentioned, she is the . Now she is taking on the ministry of transport, which is a very intense file. Then, of course, given the difficult situation of the and the Liberal Party at this time, I'm concerned her efforts are even further diluted by the possibility of her posing a leadership campaign as well. This is the President of the Treasury Board. She is supposed to have oversight of all the funds of our nation. Her energy is divided, and not one way. She is running one department that I imagine is completely consuming, but she is also responsible for the department of transport while, at the same time, possibly making a leadership bid.
It's quite concerning, Mr. Chair.
Thank you.
Thank you for being here today.
I was listening to the line of questioning that just happened in regard to the President of the Treasury Board, an individual of great calibre: a lawyer, a professor, a strong advocate for consumer rights, someone who was quite active in the securities commission, someone who I worked with prior when I was in the role of finance minister and was relying on the exceptional abilities of this individual, who is extremely accessible and very engaged and active in the issues, as well as being President of the Treasury Board at the time. She's quite the champion in the role that she plays in Treasury Board, and we really do rely on some of that oversight she provides.
However, regarding the question about this particular issue of these internal audits, I mean, they're standard. This is something that's prescribed. This is something that's mandated to be done, regardless of who the ministers may be at any given time.
She herself was a previous minister of procurement and operations for government, and she did an exceptional job during COVID in regard to some of the negotiations that had to be done. I've always found her to be extremely attentive, if not even more meticulous, in trying to push forward on the matters at hand, because she does review things tremendously. When I see and talk to her, she's well informed.
Given that this is a mandate that's required, for reviews is it not prudent, then, to do them and to provide recommendations to improve upon the issues? I mean, this is not a static issue. This is an ongoing relationship that's required in order to improve the operations of government. Is that not true?
Ms. Boudreau, as I understand it, in terms of grants, you determine who can receive them based on certain criteria, but as regards contributions, there is some form of accountability.
When grants or contributions are awarded to a company, for example for the development of green technologies, we have an objective in mind. Canada becomes an investor. In fact, I should say that citizens, through their taxes, become investors. It may be that the investment will go awry if we don't reach the goal we've set. It's also possible that this objective will be achieved.
If it is achieved, if the technology succeeds, are there any clauses in the contract with the company whereby Canada can get a return on this investment, for example an investor's right of, say, 2% for Canadian taxpayers? Is there such a clause, or is money being invested with no direct return? There's going to be some through taxes and jobs created, but what do we get in the way of direct return?
:
Thank you for the question.
Before I answer it, I'd like to come back to the word “grant”. As we said earlier, there are eligibility criteria, and these must be verified each time a new grant is given.
I'll now come back to your question. There are always terms and conditions. There are terms and conditions attached to every grant or contribution, and they're probably going to relate to what you've just listed. That said, I can't think of any specific examples. These terms and conditions make it possible to determine the commitments and responsibilities of each of the parties.
Maybe Ms. Thomas has more information on this subject.
One of the findings of the audit was that resources at ECCC were strained, and some of the lack of documentation and some of the other audit findings probably stem from a lack of internal resources to manage the process. It seems like a pretty logical finding that, if you increase grants and contributions astronomically in a short period of time and don't invest resources in the processes to manage that, they're not going to be managed appropriately.
Does Treasury Board have guidelines around internal resourcing, given different levels of grants and contributions? If you're giving out $2 billion, should you allocate 5% for internal capacity to actually document, to write things down and do those kinds of things?
:
It's not less oversight.
The risk-based audit plan is a three-year audit plan that needs to be refreshed every year. Those plans come to my group, and we look at them to make sure that, at the end of the day, we have good audit coverage on all programs.
Again, if there are some challenges, or if a deputy minister believes that they would like to have more information about a particular program, then the deputy minister, in their role, can decide to ask for a specific audit from their internal audit shop.
Thanks, as always, for being with us.
Before you go, I have a couple of quick questions myself, if you don't mind.
How many of the departments have chief audit executives?
I ask that because that is who did this one. We've had several other less than stellar audits—one about Global Affairs on their horrific non-practice of following the rules on procurement, this one....
How many other departments have chief audit executives, and what direction are they taking to do these audits and uncover messes similar to the ones we have with Global Affairs and elsewhere?
:
Thank you, Mr. Chair, for inviting me to appear before your committee today.
I would like to acknowledge that this hearing is taking place on the traditional unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe people.
I am accompanied today by Nicolas Blouin, a director in our office.
I understand that the committee has recently heard from Environment and Climate Change Canada officials on the grants and contributions process at that department. While I'm happy to answer questions and provide any insights I can in support of the committee's work, I want to be clear that the grants and contributions programs of Environment and Climate Change Canada have not been the focus of any recent audits.
As this is my first appearance before this committee, I would like to take this opportunity to provide an overview of the commissioner's role and mandate. On behalf of the Auditor General of Canada, the commissioner conducts performance audits of matters that relate to the environment and sustainable development, and reports to Parliament, typically, twice a year. These reports are referred to the Standing Committee on Environment and Sustainable Development but are often studied by a wide range of committees in the House of Commons and the Senate.
Like the Auditor General, the commissioner does not audit the policy decisions of Parliament and government. Our work examines whether government departments and agencies implement policy decisions with due regard to economy, efficiency, effectiveness and the environment.
I would like to note that the environment and sustainable development are a priority across the Office of the Auditor General of Canada.
[Translation]
Audits carried out by the Auditor General and the commissioner include, where appropriate, environmental and sustainable development issues. This includes taking into account the United Nations Sustainable Development Goals when selecting, designing and conducting all of our performance audits.
The commissioner also reviews and comments on the draft Federal Sustainable Development Strategy. Once the strategy has been implemented, we monitor and report on how federal departments and agencies are contributing to achieving the objectives set out in the federal strategy. We also assess and report on their progress in achieving the objectives of their own departmental strategies. We also review the accuracy of information in progress reports on the implementation of the overall federal strategy.
In addition, the commissioner manages the environmental petitions process on behalf of the Auditor General. This process enables Canadians to put questions directly to federal ministers on environmental and sustainable development issues under federal jurisdiction, and ensures that petitioners receive a response from the ministers concerned.
Finally, the Canadian Net-Zero Emissions Accountability Act requires that the commissioner review the implementation of measures taken by the Government of Canada to mitigate climate change, including those aimed at achieving the most recent greenhouse gas emissions target. He must also report on these measures and make recommendations. Our first report was tabled in 2023, a year earlier than required, and the second will be presented for tabling in November.
Mr. Chair, I would be happy to answer any questions the committee may have about my recent work. Thank you.
Thank you, Commissioner. It's nice to see you again.
Commissioner, an internal audit of grants and contributions programs revealed that 's department was not monitoring 10% of the projects and not reviewing a further 27%. In fact, Minister Guilbeault's management of taxpayer dollars was so bad that, according to the report, it represented “potential legal and reputational damage”.
Throughout all your audits, have you ever noticed similar findings when the current government has failed to monitor taxpayer-funded programs?
:
The process of documentation is an important part of any review of the effectiveness of a program such as a grants and contributions program.
I would say that the emphasis of this report from our office, though, is more on outcomes than process. We found that the main gaps, in this case, had to do with value for money, as we discussed earlier today, as well as the total amount of reductions expected from the large sum of money being expended. In this particular instance, the main problems we uncovered related to value for money and the lack of a horizontal industrial strategy to guide the use of that money.
Other than the efficiency of the current, cumbersome process, we didn't find a lot of other issues with respect to documentation in this particular audit.
:
I haven't had a chance to review the transcript of that hearing yet. I'm not sure if it's been posted on the committee's website yet.
I'm not intimately familiar with all of the findings of that internal audit by ECCC regarding their grants and contributions.
In the ecosystem of auditing, both the internal audit, such as that example, and parliamentary officers, such as an Auditor General's office, including the Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, both have a role to play.
I would have to look carefully at the scope of their audit to determine whether it's something that was covered well or not, but I haven't audited their audit, if that's what your question is.
:
Thank you. Your answer allows me to move to my next question.
When you're planning something, in my opinion, it involves looking beyond the end of your nose and considering all the elements that will be affected, or as many factors as possible. In short, it's about having a global vision. Unfortunately, that's not what we're seeing, and that is what you're saying, to a degree. It's as if everything is done on an ad hoc basis, to look as good as possible and get the best flowers thrown at you. Perhaps my question will be more specific.
What are the consequences of the lack of coordination between programs and of working in a vacuum, without an overall picture of the situation? In my opinion, this means that we can give subsidies or tax credits to the oil industry, for example, while saying we're going to plant 2 billion trees, but without seeing how these two ideas can come together, move away from each other, or even interfere with each other.
What are the consequences of not having a program overview?
There's a saying about not being able to see the forest for the trees. That's why, in 2021, we published a report entitled “Lessons Learned from Canada's Climate Change Performance”. We had sought to understand, in a comprehensive way, the problem of repeated failure to meet greenhouse gas emission reduction targets.
Our first lesson was the need for better leadership and coordination. So I agree with you that we need to look at the whole package. There are over 100 measures dealing with climate change, as well as others dealing with biodiversity and sustainable development. We need to see the interaction between these measures. In the context of sustainable development, we also need to see the interaction between measures relating to the environment and measures relating to economic and social aspects, as I said.
So I agree. This system where departments work in silos is an obstacle that prevents the government from having a global vision.
:
It's your first appearance—there you go—but of course, I think we've all had the pleasure of hearing your reports at other committees.
This issue of grants and contributions is an interesting one. I'm trying to think of questions that relate specifically to your area of responsibility.
You have a broad view of the government's emissions reduction plans, and you've reported on that in the past. It seems to me, unless I'm missing something, that they kind of fall into two buckets. There's the regulatory piece, the rules and regulations and laws that constrain different sectors from emitting. Then there's the carrots piece, which is the grants and contributions the government's giving out as incentives to reduce emissions.
I'm wondering if it's too much to ask you to broadly comment on these sticks and carrots buckets. Which of them has proven the most effective or made the biggest contribution to emissions reductions over the years that you've been in your role?
It seems to me that one of the risks involved with grants and contributions is this sort of shoehorning effect, whereby the government allocates an envelope of money for certain kinds of contributions, and then all of these instances pop up where they have potential recipients that they want to get money to somehow and they go looking around for envelopes of money that could be applied in that way. For example, the net-zero accelerator fund has a number of different criteria, not just emissions reductions.
Is there a risk of government using these kinds of funds as a bit of a catch-all for projects that don't necessarily emphasize emissions reductions but might hit on some of the other criteria, such that the net effect at the end of the day is that projects get funded, but the primary objective of reducing emissions actually gets de-emphasized in the outcomes you're seeing?
:
That is definitely a risk.
In this instance, most of the fund actually has been committed to already in terms of the $8 billion, yet in terms of bankable reductions, it's nowhere near the 19 megatonnes to 20 megatonnes that Environment Canada was hoping to see out of this program by ISED. Whether the relatively modest amount of reduction, which I believe in this case was from five of the 17 projects, is from shoehorning or from other causes, I can't say for sure, but the main message is that this is a large sum of money without a lot of bankable emissions reductions associated with it.
Also, in terms of value for money, there is a lack of demonstration by the department that this fund is going to truly accelerate towards net zero—which is the name of the fund—in a significant way. That's the main problem with this fund.
Commissioner, the government launched an $8-billion taxpayer-funded program called the “net zero accelerator”. The government claimed that they could reduce emissions by giving away $8 billion to megacorporations through this program.
According to your report on the net-zero accelerator project—I have to double-check this because I can't believe what I'm actually going to say here—these funds “can be fast-tracked with a letter to the Prime Minister.” That's at the bottom of page 8 of your report and, like I say, I hesitated, because I wanted to make sure I had that quote correct.
I find this quite alarming and scandalous, to say the least. Does this not concern you? When you reported this and when you saw this, did it not concern you that the world's largest companies can write a letter to the and say, “Here, we need some funding to reduce...we might reduce some emissions?”
:
I'll pick up on a theme we touched on with the questions from Madame Vignola. Looking at things in an integrated way, let's start at the highest level with the three pillars of sustainable development, looking at the environment, economy and social dimensions all together. That will lead to more effective decisions than looking at them in silos.
Looking across the federal government, it's been set up, obviously, for decades and centuries, in departmental silos. However, the world is facing a number of challenges that do not fit very well now within each of those silos. The government has tried to adapt by putting in some horizontal initiatives to overcome the vertical silos, but it's far from doing that in an effective way. We're still seeing siloed decision-making, and the proof is in the outcomes. We've now had 30 years since Canada's commitments to stabilize and then reduce greenhouse gas emissions, and during that time emissions have gone up.
Obviously, it would be unwise to keep doing the same thing and expect different results. We need to have a better system for tackling these horizontal issues that are whole-of-society, not just whole-of-government. One way to do that would be to rethink the departmental silos that have ruled the day so far.
As we mentioned in our climate change lessons learned report, there may be a need for a more centralized and coordinated approach.
:
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Gentlemen, thank you for being with us and taking the time to answer our questions. I have many more, but I have a debate to finish right now with my colleagues.
Members of Parliament, I'd like to bring back to the table the debate on the report to the House on the Governor General's expenses for her French courses. I'll read my motion again, since some of you weren't here last time.
The media reported on Wednesday, September 25, 2024, that the Governor General of Canada, Mary Simon, was still unable to converse in French during a visit to a community organization in Lévis, Quebec, and that she had to forego certain activities planned during her stay in Quebec for this reason. In addition, the Governor General had made a firm commitment to learn French by 2021, when she was appointed, and again told Radio-Canada in an interview in 2023 that she wanted to be able to speak to francophones by the end of 2024. Moreover, tens of thousands of dollars in public funds have been spent on French courses for little result since 2021.
Therefore, the motion proposes that the committee express concern that the Governor General cannot adequately address Quebec francophones and francophones from francophone communities in other provinces in their mother tongue. The motion also asks the committee to express its deep disappointment that after three years since her appointment, the Governor General of Canada cannot sustain a basic level of conversation in French in the exercise—
Mr. DeMarco, the leader of the Conservative Party has said that if his party were to form government, he would not pull Canada out of the Paris Agreement, which comes with certain emissions reduction commitments that have already been made and can't be watered down, as I understand it. However, we know very little about his actual climate plans. There are many policies that he has opposed but few he has supported. The main one we hear about repeatedly is this idea of meeting our emissions reduction target by exporting fossil fuels to other parts of the world.
Could you comment on the efficacy of that approach, whether it's consistent with the Paris Agreement, and whether other countries are meeting their emissions reduction targets using that approach?
:
The choice of measures is a decision to be made by government, and Parliament itself, to the extent any of those measures are reflected in legislation. What I have said before in previous committee hearings and with other committees is that if we remove any big-ticket items from the current suite of measures—and we have in our net-zero act report a list of 80 measures that are ongoing and another 37 that are proposed—another replacement measure needs to be put in place to compensate for that, so that it still adds up.
Having said that, even if you look at all the measures now, they still don't add up to 40%-45%. If we're to meet the Paris Agreement target that Canada has set for itself in its NDC, a 40%-45% reduction from 2005 levels by 2030, we're actually still in need of more measures or ratcheted-up existing measures.
We're not even at the point where we're meeting the target or on track to meet the target, so I'm hesitant to have a view on a specific measure and how one could be replaced. We're looking at the global 40%-45%, and we don't even have an emissions reduction plan yet that has bankable measures that will get to the lowest part of that range of 40%-45%.
We still have work to be done. What the government chooses to do in terms of the measures is up to the government.
Given the larger context of today, Chair, we have the 2019 Treasury Board guidelines, which clearly have not been adhered to. We saw the bad audit out of Global Affairs Canada. We now have a part-time . I believe, Mr. Chair, that this necessitates greater oversight, as has been brought to the attention of the committee by my colleague. As such, I'm putting on verbal notice the following motion:
grants and contributions by Environment and Climate Change Canada have increased by $625 million since 2016;
only 5.5% of all grants and contributions from ECCC were reviewed in a departmental audit;
the audit stated that there was a potential for abuse and mismanagement that may lead to “reputational and legal damage”; and
this review was only an internal review and not independent;
the committee call on the Auditor General to complete a value for money and performance audit on the grants and contributions program at Environment and Climate Change Canada and report the findings to the House.
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
:
I guess my point is that we recognize.... I agree we need a sustainable effort to go forward. I want to look at the environmental benefit, but I also want to look at the economic benefit, the green economy and other things we're trying to put in force to enable us to improve economic circumstances, environmental circumstances and social benefit. There is a benefit when all of this comes to be.
We can look backwards. We can go back to the days of coal plants in Ontario, for example. When we decarbonized our system, we got part of the cap and trade initiative. We became part of the western climate initiative, alongside Quebec, and we were taking advantage of a great benefit to reduce emissions and climate impacts on society and local communities. That's what Canada is trying to do in part of the overall Paris Agreement. Those are the efforts we're trying to proceed with. Measures are being taken and enacted. There are things we can do to improve upon this. That's why we have internal audits. That's why we make these efforts. That's why we rely on people like you, the experts in this area, to guide us and provide some direction on how to proceed in a better way.
The question is this: Is it not appropriate, then, to take measures, audits and reviews to sustain and support the program? Others believe there should be no program. Others are assuming there is no climate change. Others are saying we should just go back to the glory days of coal plants, emissions and manufacturing without looking at alternatives.
Mr. DeMarco, can you give us your impressions on what we should do, going forward? Is it not appropriate to do what we're doing?
:
Let me answer that at a high level.
There are measures, especially regulatory ones like carbon pricing, that have the ability to achieve significant reductions. We don't even have enough measures now to add up to our target of 40% to 45%. As I answered in a question earlier, we're in a position where we need more measures to do so.
Regarding the fact that we have some measures providing added value, does that mean we can rest on those laurels? No, we are far from achieving our target. On a comparative basis, we're the worst among the G7. One cannot say that we're doing something that's good enough just because it's better than nothing. Compared with our neighbours, and looking towards our own target, we're not doing enough.
:
We're quite a bit past our time.
Mr. DeMarco and Mr. Blouin, thanks for being with us. You've shown why you're two of my favourite witnesses on the other side, in public accounts. Thank you very much. I appreciate it.
Very quickly, colleagues, we have a couple of budgets to approve. You received copies of them the other day. I see thumbs-up all around. There are two budgets—one for grants and contributions, and one for Canada Post.
Thank you very much.
By this Friday at noon, please have witnesses for indigenous procurement. I haven't received anything since the motion was passed. It's Friday at noon, please.
Then there's Canada Post. We're doing that on Thursday. We received 20 recommendations. Our wonderful analysts have grouped a bunch together. I'm asking you to please take a look at the recommendations put forward by the analysts, who bunched them together. Be prepared. Hopefully, after chatting among yourselves, we can reduce those so we can get through the report on Thursday.
I appreciate everyone's patience.
With that, we are adjourned.